Chief Technical Officer
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A box with two small (Pathfinder Chronicle sized) books.I'll take it a step further: digest-sized books (a la D&D Essentials). I love that portability.
A few people have suggested digest-sized books... but I have to say, they're just not cost efficient (and if you've been following this thread, you know that being cost efficient has to be one of our highest priorities here).
Obviously, if you're comparing a 64-page book at full size and a 64-page book at digest, the smaller book will use less paper, and so presumably will cost less—but that's a faulty comparison for our purposes.
But think about it this way: if you take the amount of *content* that needs to be in a book as the important factor—which it is here—it takes twice as many half-size pages to deliver the same amount of content. Actually, a bit *more* than double, since you generally have to dedicate a slightly higher percentage of each page to the margin—and especially the gutter—on smaller pages. So not only do you have to spend slightly *more* on paper when you make your book smaller, but you also have to spend more to cut and bind more pages.
Now, further to that, I think that making an intro book half as big, but twice as thick, also brings with it a psychological negative. People think about book length in terms of the number of pages, or the thickness, not in terms of the total page surface area.
I think that if you showed somebody an inch-thick digest-sized rulebook and a half-inch-thick full-sized rulebook and asked them which set of rules would probably be less daunting to learn, they'd pick the thinner book.
I'll add to that the fact that charts, character sheets and a great many other things are much easier to read in folio size rather than digest size.
Add to that the fact that if the box is carefully sized, it may be made to exactly fit--and thus protect--two folio-size books, whereas two digest-size books would rattle around during transport, get their corners bunged, and all manner of other unpleasantness.
It would also be good if the box were sized such that a few other Pathfinder books could be housed inside without much trouble, making it double as a slipcase.
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Chief Technical Officer
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It would also be good if the box were sized such that a few other Pathfinder books could be housed inside without much trouble, making it double as a slipcase.
That's probably an automatic... you want boxes to be thicker than they need to be, for two reasons. First, retailers don't like boxes that are so slim they fall over—if you give them the thickness they need to stand on their edge, they'll do better. Second, a psychological effect like the one I was talking about in my last post works *for* us here—people subconsciously apply a higher value to a thicker box.
It would also be good if the box were sized such that a few other Pathfinder books could be housed inside without much trouble, making it double as a slipcase.That's probably an automatic... you want boxes to be thicker than they need to be, for two reasons. First, retailers don't like boxes that are so slim they fall over—if you give them the thickness they need to stand on their edge, they'll do better. Second, a psychological effect like the one I was talking about in my last post works *for* us here—people subconsciously apply a higher value to a thicker box.
For some reason it used to give me a warm glow to stuff all of my Forgotten Realms sourcebooks into the big thick 2nd edition boxed set and carry that to game nights at my friend's house.
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-Lisa
I didn't want to make any comment on what Lisa stated, I just thought it was really cool that someone so high in the company was in this chat.
What attracted me to Pathfinder was the fact that these were the same people that brought us The Shackled city & Age of worms. I was already playing D&D before but the fact that this group had made such a great game I figured I really had to get in on this. In the intro set there should be an adventure on par with book 1 of the shackled city or Age of worms. Something that will take the users several levels and want to replay again with other characters. That is one of the biggest things, making the game fun.
Other items people are talking about in the forum are the level, many kids playing the current videogames , Call of duty, Borderlands, WOW, enjoy the whole leveling up part of the game. The system I think should let the players go to 5th level. The options in most video games are not as vast as Pathfinder so the intro set shouldn't have too many options to choose from at leveling up, it's like choose apple, orange or banana. Each is good and it takes less time than selecting one brand and type snack down the snack isle. After players are accustom to choosing feats and options then they can broaden there options with the original format.
THE CHARACTER SHEET
Still to this date I have to show people who play but not as hardcore where items are on the character sheet. The intro character sheet should be very worked out. Shield icon for AC, icons for saves, spaced used economically. Only 2 boxes are needed for each attribute, actual score and modifier. The space allotted for spells only allows 4point font, and since the intro goes to 5th level not too much space is needed.
Quick start
Pregens and an on the fly method of game play would be needed. May be an encounter in the adventure could nothing more than a training course where PCs fight combat dummies AC5 and move around, like at the start of the neverwinternights games. A note in the adventure can tell the dm to skip for more advanced players.
Healer --- Healer class that does cast spells but just heals & buffs
Mage --- Caster class without schools but cast the amount of per day as sorc. but has wiz progression
Solider --- Fighter with less options d12 hd and makes weapon damage a die higher at higher levels
Expert --- less of the sneak attack progression for 12 skill points per level
Marketing
When this does come out I'd like to see lots of advertising. I know TV commercials, like the ones for the next great video game coming out each month, might be far fetched but Magic ccg had commercials back in the day. But I'd like to see online ads, like on ign & gamespot. And it should be a boxed set having everything you need to play the second you get home when you open the box
How ever it goes I am happy to hear of this and can't wait too see the finished product.
I wouldn't do a light-version of the existing rules, but rather a completely new light-weighed game based on the engine.
Rather than teaching someone a different game and expect them to abandon their knowledge of that game when they switch to the Pathfinder RPG, I'd rather see a game that teaches someone the *basics* of the Pathfinder RPG so they can easily transition to playing the full game.
For example, if someone makes a fighter with the intro game, and his fighter reaches level 4, and he and his friends decide to buy the Core Rulebook, I don't want him to have to rebuild his character when he starts playing the Pathfinder RPG. His ftr4 should have 4d10 hp, a good Fort save, a +4 BAB, 3 combat feats, and 2 skill points per level... just like a ftr4 in the Pathfinder RPG.
Rather than teaching someone a different game and expect them to abandon their knowledge of that game when they switch to the Pathfinder RPG, I'd rather see a game that teaches someone the *basics* of the Pathfinder RPG so they can easily transition to playing the full game.For example, if someone makes a fighter with the intro game, and his fighter reaches level 4, and he and his friends decide to buy the Core Rulebook, I don't want him to have to rebuild his character when he starts playing the Pathfinder RPG. His ftr4 should have 4d10 hp, a good Fort save, a +4 BAB, 3 combat feats, and 2 skill points per level... just like a ftr4 in the Pathfinder RPG.
And this is why im Glad you are a developer of Pathfinder, I dont need an intro game for myself but I see the need for one and it should easily translate to Pathfinder RPG
I wouldn't do a light-version of the existing rules, but rather a completely new light-weighed game based on the engine.Rather than teaching someone a different game and expect them to abandon their knowledge of that game when they switch to the Pathfinder RPG, I'd rather see a game that teaches someone the *basics* of the Pathfinder RPG so they can easily transition to playing the full game.
For example, if someone makes a fighter with the intro game, and his fighter reaches level 4, and he and his friends decide to buy the Core Rulebook, I don't want him to have to rebuild his character when he starts playing the Pathfinder RPG. His ftr4 should have 4d10 hp, a good Fort save, a +4 BAB, 3 combat feats, and 2 skill points per level... just like a ftr4 in the Pathfinder RPG.
What's interesting is that I agree with all of this, but I would still say it's OK to give characters in the Intro game less than characters in the full game at a given level. In fact, it might be advisable.
In the abstract, if Fighters have fewer feats and wizards fewer spells in the intro game, that makes them a little easier to manage*. Then when the players want to "upgrade" to the full game, they get to add to their characters right away. It would be a good incentive, not unlike the 3.5 -> Pathfinder RPG switch was incentivized with more feats and powers. It was. Don't even try to deny that. :)
I'm not saying it has to be done, but that kind of approach is legitimate, IMO. You can remove complexity and then let "adding it back" in the full version feel like an upgrade to the characters. As long as it doesn't necessitate rebuilding instead of adding. Not unlike the 3.5 -> PF design goals, but in reverse!
*not necessarily condoning either ability for this approach, just for purpose of example take feats and spells.
What's interesting is that I agree with all of this, but I would still say it's OK to give characters in the Intro game less than characters in the full game at a given level. In fact, it might be advisable.
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As long as it doesn't necessitate rebuilding instead of adding.
Oh, I totally agree with you. I'm saying that if you transition from the intro game to the full game, the character you built with the intro game shouldn't have to be converted in any way to be used as-is in the full game.
For example, if the intro Ftr1 always got Weapon Focus at 1st level (instead of choosing a combat feat) and always got Weapon Spec at 4th level (instead og choosing a combat feat), that character in the full game is 100% rules compliant--he's identical to a Core Rulebook character who chose those feats at those levels. And the player who makes that transition will say, "cool, fighters have even more options than before, even at 1st level!"
Likewise, if the intro game only presented one set of abilities for wizards (that are the same as, but not necessarily called "universalist wizard school"), when a player of an intro game wizard transitions to the full game, he'll say, "oh, my wizard is a universalist wizard!" Instead of saying "my wizard doesn't have anything like any of these abilities presented here.
Basically, the full game should be seen as an additive element to the intro game. "Wow, this game has more races! More classes! More skills! More feats! More equipment! More things I can do in combat! More spells! More magic items! More monsters!"
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I wouldn't do a light-version of the existing rules, but rather a completely new light-weighed game based on the engine.Rather than teaching someone a different game and expect them to abandon their knowledge of that game when they switch to the Pathfinder RPG, I'd rather see a game that teaches someone the *basics* of the Pathfinder RPG so they can easily transition to playing the full game.
For example, if someone makes a fighter with the intro game, and his fighter reaches level 4, and he and his friends decide to buy the Core Rulebook, I don't want him to have to rebuild his character when he starts playing the Pathfinder RPG. His ftr4 should have 4d10 hp, a good Fort save, a +4 BAB, 3 combat feats, and 2 skill points per level... just like a ftr4 in the Pathfinder RPG.
This! There's no reason to fragment the player base with two different games.
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Feats can still be left as choices (vs. assigned) just narrow the choices down to a few - Weapon Focus, Dodge, Toughness and Shield Focus (Fighter example).
The 1st level fighter gets to choose between some attack plus defense, defense + defense, defense + tough, etc - all according to how the player may visualize the character in mind’s eye at creation.
This also:
A) Preserves the feat selection process of building a character (which is part of core)
B) Gives the player as sense of choice and may help if he sees his fighter as a "Smasher/Badass" or the "Big Guy" in heavy armor vs. built-in mechanics.
If the feats are imbedded then people without system mastery won't see them, in effect it won't be a choice and unless they understand the dynamics of various BABs all they'll think is that their to hit is better with this one weapon and not really know why since the feat will already be built in.
I see this project as a system learning tool, there has to be modular components to building a character - just not as many as in the current core game that will overwhelm a new to RPG player.
What's interesting is that I agree with all of this, but I would still say it's OK to give characters in the Intro game less than characters in the full game at a given level. In fact, it might be advisable.
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As long as it doesn't necessitate rebuilding instead of adding.
Oh, I totally agree with you. I'm saying that if you transition from the intro game to the full game, the character you built with the intro game shouldn't have to be converted in any way to be used as-is in the full game.
For example, if the intro Ftr1 always got Weapon Focus at 1st level (instead of choosing a combat feat) and always got Weapon Spec at 4th level (instead og choosing a combat feat), that character in the full game is 100% rules compliant--he's identical to a Core Rulebook character who chose those feats at those levels. And the player who makes that transition will say, "cool, fighters have even more options than before, even at 1st level!"
Likewise, if the intro game only presented one set of abilities for wizards (that are the same as, but not necessarily called "universalist wizard school"), when a player of an intro game wizard transitions to the full game, he'll say, "oh, my wizard is a universalist wizard!" Instead of saying "my wizard doesn't have anything like any of these abilities presented here.
Basically, the full game should be seen as an additive element to the intro game. "Wow, this game has more races! More classes! More skills! More feats! More equipment! More things I can do in combat! More spells! More magic items! More monsters!"
True, but when you get the full game, there's shouldn't be buyer's remorse of "Why did I blow $20 on this dumb box set? It's useless now."
There needs to be a unique little bestiary about the same size and format as the Bonus Bestiary, a similar sort of class guide of classes that are fun to play (and last more than four levels) and stuff that will still make the box set useful and interesting even after the universe is expanded.
Dancey had some stuff to say elsewhere about how the purpose of the box sets is to make gift sets to give to 12-14 year olds as an intro to the system, but speaking as one of those former 12-14 year olds, you never want to make them feel ripped off with what's meant to be a thoughtful gift from a well-meaning adult. If they stay with hobby, the original box set has to have more than nostalgia value.
Which is another way of saying that the into game should also be an additive element to the full game, having some unique little frills and quirks you won't be able to get elsewhere but that people would still enjoy. A unique gremlin in the bestiary. A set of intriguing traits listed in the starter adventure. Stuff of that nature.
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True, but when you get the full game, there's shouldn't be buyer's remorse of "Why did I blow $20 on this dumb box set? It's useless now."
There needs to be a unique little bestiary about the same size and format as the Bonus Bestiary, a similar sort of class guide of classes that are fun to play (and last more than four levels) and stuff that will still make the box set useful and interesting even after the universe is expanded.
Dancey had some stuff to say elsewhere about how the purpose of the box sets is to make gift sets to give to 12-14 year olds as an intro to the system, but speaking as one of those former 12-14 year olds, you never want to make them feel ripped off with what's meant to be a thoughtful gift from a well-meaning adult. If they stay with hobby, the original box set has to have more than nostalgia value.
Which is another way of saying that the into game should also be an additive element to the full game, having some unique little frills and quirks you won't be able to get elsewhere but that people would still enjoy. A unique gremlin in the bestiary. A set of intriguing traits listed in the starter adventure. Stuff of that nature.
I don't think anything should be "different" from the core game besides the simplified/less/reduced presentation and maybe a few creatures. In my opinion any differences, even minor unique traits could cause some animosity as people transition and find things "missing" in the new game. All that would do is create problems in transition from intro game to core. if new things were introduced in the set - say traits - and then later one were incorporated into core then yeah, new feats/traits would be a cool hook.
The reduced version could also be an attractive selling point since in effect you have a stripped down and basic version of Pathfinder. This could be more attractive to longtime players looking for something easier and faster to run. Many of the clunky or overcomplicated rules are stripped out and you have a tighter game.
All that being said a unique module and large map would be enough for me to purchase the set, and anyone going on to core would probably look fondly on that unique "Keep on the Borderlands" basic Pathfinder experience of their first adventure.
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Player's Guide
* Vastly reduced listing of feats and spells
* Fighter, Sorcerer, Rogue, Cleric, and maybe 2-3 other base classes
* Races only take up a page or so, so include all seven of them
* Some existing choices should be set class features (sorcerer bloodline, rogue talents, etc)
* Covers levels 1-12 (Player's can have a full PFS career without ever buying anything else)
GameMaster's Guide
Exclusive Pathfinder Module (to give current players a reason to invest if only in the PDF version)
A coupon for a free download of the Core Rulebook PDF
Flip-Mat of the dungeon in the exclusive module
Some character sheets and graph paper
Paizo product catalog
Set of poly dice
All rules should be 100% compatible with the existing rules, and 100% Pathfinder Society legal.
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Why the limit?
20 levels, so that people wishing to adhere to these rules can play the game all glorious levels.
Mostly I put that because that range is generally accepted to be among the most fun, it allows a full PFS career with a bit extra at the end, and having less levels than the "Advanced" version gives them more incentive to upgrade to the Core Rulebook. Although it might make sense to go all the way to 15, that way Adventure Paths would be an option.
In fact, I think you'll probably notice that I'm one of the few who advocate going even that far. Most here seem to think somewhere between level 3-6 should be the cap for an intro game.
True, but when you get the full game, there's shouldn't be buyer's remorse of "Why did I blow $20 on this dumb box set? It's useless now."
It's not useless if you give it to your brother or a friend so they can reference the basic info on the game when they play. You'd be surprised how many groups only have one book to share between multiple people at the table.
There needs to be a unique little bestiary about the same size and format as the Bonus Bestiary,
So... monsters that they'll either never see again in other PF products because the stats only appear in that intro bestiary, or monsters that will get reprinted in a later monster book and thus make them "useless"?
a similar sort of class guide of classes that are fun to play (and last more than four levels)I don't see that. If it were 4 levels, that's 16 game sessions, or about 64 hours of gameplay. That's a better deal than a new videogame, and doesn't even count replay value. And multiply that many hours by the number of people playing. The game I learned to play only had *THREE* levels, and we played the hell out of that.
Dancey had some stuff to say elsewhere about how the purpose of the box sets is to make gift sets to give to 12-14 year olds as an intro to the system, but speaking as one of those former 12-14 year olds, you never want to make them feel ripped off with what's meant to be a thoughtful gift from a well-meaning adult. If they stay with hobby, the original box set has to have more than nostalgia value.If something with at least 64 hours of play makes you feel "ripped off," I'm not sure what else I can do for you. :)
I'd really like to see an intro game that goes to level 6. Mostly because it would be easy to add a fan-made supplement to turn it into E6. I would still buy an intro set that went to level 4 or so though. It would be a handy reference for a beginning game. Certainly my fondest memories were of games that took place in the 1-3 range. Particularly because the only adventures I had for the longest time was the B1-9 collected set.
I'd prefer the later. That said, I'd really prefer 20 levels of gaming pleasure (much like Sean suggested with fix, compatible class features)Except page count it doesnt make sense to me to restrict the level of these classes. I hope that the intro box is a standalone, plug & play game that allows an easy transition to the full pathfinder game, and not just a teaser.
but you have to put spells, monsters, feats and what not into it if it would go to level 20.
That has an enormous impact on page cout.And why should someone buy the Core Rulebook if the Box goes all the way?
I would make it Level 1 to 5, Wizards will have 3.Lvl spells like fly and fireball and thats great fun, but then they will have to buy Core to play further = money
or they start there next level 1 adventure or play happy 5.levels for years, also a good option, who says that you have to level up to have further fun, just playing good adventures of level 5 could be fun as well
True, but when you get the full game, there's shouldn't be buyer's remorse of "Why did I blow $20 on this dumb box set? It's useless now."It's not useless if you give it to your brother or a friend so they can reference the basic info on the game when they play. You'd be surprised how many groups only have one book to share between multiple people at the table.
True. If the "Handy Character Starter" and "Basic Reference Info" portion could be played up, that would be a good thing.
There needs to be a unique little bestiary about the same size and format as the Bonus Bestiary,So... monsters that they'll either never see again in other PF products because the stats only appear in that intro bestiary, or monsters that will get reprinted in a later monster book and thus make them "useless"?
Monsters that will appear in later monster books are fine, especially if they're ones that are popular, like how the Drow originally appeared in a module and later showed up in the official books.
What it shouldn't be is a reprint rehash of monsters pulled from the already existing bestiaries. Some pulled from older adventure paths and modules are fine, especially if given a little new gloss, but there should be some original content to the starter set, even if that's not the only place those creatures will ever be printed.
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Chief Technical Officer
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That's a point if you have a limited page count available.
but you have to put spells, monsters, feats and what not into it if it would go to level 20.
Two things act to strongly limit page count.
First, an intro product has to be reasonably priced. If we stuck a 256-page book in there, the price point for the whole box would have to be too high.
Second, an intro product has to look approachable. People who haven't roleplayed have probably never seen any rulebook longer than about 16 pages in their life. So when it comes to page count, the closer you can get to "magazine"—and the further away from "phone book"—the better.
Maybe there is no reason to "upgrade" if people are happy with the simplified rules. That would be good opportunity for paizo to compete with systems like true20 or some retro clones.
In which case it isn't a "Pathfinder Intro Game", it's a competing-with-Pathfinder alternate game.
Depending on space, one useful tool for an intro game is replay value. Take the Kingmaker exploration rules, fairly compact already, add say 19 or 20 thin punchout hex tiles of varied complementery terrain (4 typed for 4 pre-mapped overland encounter sites), one side "clean", the other marked with generic sites the GM can random table from. Tell the GM to layout the "base" hex and then shuffle and lay out the rest of the area map.
One double sided large map, one side caves, one crypts. Some basic cits to section off areas and add doors.
On "GM side" of the the tiles number them. Photocopy-able hex map of the GM so he can note the arangmrnt of tiles if play needs to stop. Same with cave and crypt maps for chits,
While helping the players learn is good, it is also good to train the GM and arm him or her with the basic skills of adventure design.
Hypothetical breakdown
• 1 foldout map double sided, contains 4 terrain based encounter sites
• 1 foldout map, one side cavern complex, one side crypts (no door features)
• 1 perhaps 2 sheets of punchout/cut-out chits for doors, walls, etc.
• 19 Hex tiles (1 home base, 1 dungeon site, 5 planes, 4 forest, 4 marsh, 4 hills)
• hex record sheet for overland
• map record sheets for caverns and crypt
• scenario material for 4 adventures (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4 capstone) on fast track
Include short section on expansion through other fine Paizo pre-made map products to increase diversity of overland/dungeon envorments :P.
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Hypothetical breakdown• 1 foldout map double sided, contains 4 terrain based encounter sites
• 1 foldout map, one side cavern complex, one side crypts (no door features)
• 1 perhaps 2 sheets of punchout/cut-out chits for doors, walls, etc.
• 19 Hex tiles (1 home base, 1 dungeon site, 5 planes, 4 forest, 4 marsh, 4 hills)
• hex record sheet for overland
• map record sheets for caverns and crypt
• scenario material for 4 adventures (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4 capstone) on fast trackInclude short section on expansion through other fine Paizo pre-made map products to increase diversity of overland/dungeon envorments :P.
I sort of agree here I would think that some punch out paper minis, 2 double sided foldout 1"square formatted flipmats (paper), all contained in a book format with copyable char sheets (very simplified but with decent mechanics... drop cmb grapple ext keep AC, BAB+mod+lev, some base skills, and saves) maybe even predetermined feats, HP (and spells) for level advancement. If the mech is really simple the game can start fast.
** Note i tried to play a quickened pathfinder game with my family over the holidays. They gave up before setup (explaining the base rules and into to the story) was complete (I used pre-made char sheets and everything)as it was too difficult and they lost patience with the how do I do anything... ((just tell me what you want to do and I will work out the mech until you get it))**
It would be great to have a simple version I could plop down and play quicker than a game of monopoly.
Cheers
Except free PDFs have zero shelf space in bookstores, Target, Wal-Mart, and so on. Which means zero visibility for potential customers.
Agreed. It needs to be simple to learn{ or less options and smaller book} a catchy cover and on store shelves or it just does not reach new people.
Free PDF's do not reach folks who are not gamers and do not look on gaming sites. You need something on a shelf, something you can giftwrap and give as a gift.
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* Races only take up a page or so, so include all seven of them
For serious, again, this. Cutting them down to human, elf, dwarf, and halfling because that's how OD&D and Lord of the Rings did it would be a mistake in this day and age when the other races already have a built-in following among potential gamers. (people can complain about WoW until their faces turn blue, but it's left its mark on the genre and has brought more younger folks into the mix)
* Races only take up a page or so, so include all seven of themFor serious, again, this. Cutting them down to human, elf, dwarf, and halfling because that's how OD&D and Lord of the Rings did it would be a mistake in this day and age when the other races already have a built-in following among potential gamers. (people can complain about WoW until their faces turn blue, but it's left its mark on the genre and has brought more younger folks into the mix)
True, but putting in uniformly crocodile-tailed longhorn-horned tieflings into the game because WoW has the Dranei would be mistake too.
I'd say that goblins, being a Golarion favorite, would make a good choice for one of the four, and it's not like WoW doesn't have goblins too.
I think humans, half-orcs, goblins and gnomes would give a pretty nice set.
Unfortunately my bias toward a slightly more pricey adventure board game showed in my post earlier. I really began my career as a GM technically as Zargon, the evil wizard of HeroQuest. I've often suggested on a few other more generic forums I'm on, to younglings looking at getting into "roleplaying" games that they go look up Fantasy Flight Games Descent: Journeys in the Dark. Granted that is not a cheap product, what with the cardboard 'build-a-dugone' tiles and generally well sculpted plastic minis. Add the extra for Road to Legend campaign/leveling expansion and that's your basic intro to table-top RPGs, IMO.
I don't think Paizo needs to go that extreme in miniature/board construction, but even going back to HeroQuest it really doesn't take much to reuse a single map.
As much as us hard-core folks want to see robust choices it just wouldn't be good. If there are new players are really chomping at the bit to use "more advanced" options they'll have a lovely advertisement imbedded in the product directing where to find it :D. Personally by the time I was 11 I was already transitioning from Blue Box to 2e AD&D... as the group's DM no less.
A $40 dollar box would not be waste if it equips an upcoming GM with tools to take some of the edge off planning games, while his or her brain gets blown dealing with the full Core. Another harping point of mine to "internet children" reluctant to buy RPG books is that most video games these day cost 60 USD a title, likely with 8-10 hours of play through time. An RPG book at the same price offers considerably more, within a month of even 2 hour play sessions you've basically caught up to that video game. That doesn't count non-game time enjoyment *looks around forum* . To the parents I can get a hold of I stress the reading comprehension and basic math skills that are supported during those times vs the video game. So wait on God of War 4 and buy the Pathfinder Primer box.
@ Mikaze, a good point, especially when you don't take into consideration various special race abilities that would have little import to a novice player. I'm said to say it but that would also qualify the Gnomes basic magic powers *sad because I'm big gnome fan-boy*
From a quicker play perspective it would almost be advantageous to have pre-set ability arrays to pick from rather then a full point buy.
Again what's the goal? Personally I'd like to be able to take something more stripped down and be able to use it with some of the 4th and 5th graders I work with.
---- Which is another point, normally I appreciate Paizo's artistic choices but the protagonist attire really needs to be school age appropriate. After all we make the kids wear uniforms these day :P. Let us say "Adventure Professional Dress", not as Steve Napierski recently depicted the issue. Sorry to Seoni, I know magic goes a long way to allowing you to wear whatever you want in any kind of weather... but some of us would have difficultly explaining these things to parents.
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This was mentioned earlier, but yes yes yes make sure the characters made with the basic set are fully compatible with the rest of the game and PFS. What better way for a new GM to get the gist of Pathfinder than to create a character and sit down to a PFS scenario at their local game store.
I will gladly run some intro PFS slots using the basic set at any conventions I attend.
Tam
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I haven't read through all of the comments here, but I did get through a good number of them. I know what I am posting here is more or less something already stated, but it is what I would put into a box set.
My first box set was an AD&D box set put out in the late 90's and was probably the last one put out by TSR. I loved that set so much I still have most of it, and I used most of it for a long, long time. Any time I wanted to teach a new person the game I would pull that out. I still have the dice from that set in my dice bag (though the d20 consistently rolls low.)
What I remember being in that box set was:
A booklet for the player
A booklet for the DM
A double sided map
A set of dice
A DM Screen
There might have been more then that, like counters or pre-rolled characters.
I also bought the first box set Wizards put out for 3.0. I was not as excited for this one, but I bought it because I knew it had the tools to teach someone new the game.
I honestly cannot remember everything it had, but I am sure it had everything the previous one did without the DM screen. I know it had punch out counters for the PCs, monsters, and terrain elements.
For Pathfinder, I don't think the box needs to be reinvented. I think a box set for PF should have the following:
-A booklet for the players. It would be split into two parts. The first one would just explain the character sheet and the basics of combat, magic, movement, equipment and a few other rules. The second part, labeled "Advanced" or something along the lines of expanding the players understanding of the game, would talk about the basics of character generation. No real part of it would have the specific rules for races, classes, skills or feats. It would instead reference the Core Rulebook and walk the players through a very basic character build.
-A set of pre-rolled characters. More then likely the iconics would be these characters. The box set would assume that these characters would be used for the first game or two.
-A GM booklet. This would also have several parts. The beginning part would be an introduction and advice on running a game. Next, an overview of some important rules. After that an adventure that would take the party through one level at the slow progression. Near the back would be a bestiary with some basic but iconic monsters. The bestiary would be reprinting monster stats from the Bestiary rulebook, like goblins and kobolds. Lastly, an "advanced" section that has the purpose of being a guide to the Core Rulebook, walking the GM through creating his own adventure or other GM related task.
-A cheap but nice GM screen. I must note that I still have my first one and plan on using it when I first teach my children how to play. It means that much to me.
-Dice. They don't have to be fancy, but nice.
-Punch out tokens for the PCs, monsters and terrain.
-A map that has neutral background and 1 inch squares on one side and a map of the dungeon the PCs will run through on the other, also gridded with 1 inch squares. The start of the adventure can include the PCs being given the map, so there is some explanation as to why they know the layout.
-A single page "Welcome" note with a list of what is in the box and the steps the players need to take. This sheet would explain that one person needs to chosen to be the GM and the others need to pick one of the pre-rolled characters. It might have other information, like what to do after the game.
Everything in the book needs to either be a tool that can be used outside of the box set, or a tool to point them to the Core Rulebook once the starter adventure is finished. The adventure in the box set needs to last about one or two sessions, no more then that, as we don't want people sticking to the box set for very long.
No actual character creation should be done on the first night of playing. That will burn people out if they are a group of friends all playing for the first time. Instead, The group should be able to play after fifteen to thirty minutes of opening the box set. The "whats next" section of the players guide can walk them through character creation, offering tips and helpful suggestions.
So that is my two cents on the matter. To end, I want to say that after my brother and I played the box set with our friends we went to the local gaming store and purchased the three core rule books. We were 75 cents short, but after hearing how excited we were to play the store owner still sold all three to us. The box set, and the kindness of the store owner, set me on the path to be the player and GM I am today.
A Pathfinderized HeroQuest would blow my mind. I still have a copy of HeroQuest that my mom bought at a thrift store for a dollar. It was my first taste of roleplaying, dungeon crawling, and adventure. I've had countless friends play that game and enjoy it. Inevitably it would lead to people saying, "You know, what if our guys could do this or that!" at that point I always say, "What you're talking about now is playing Dungeons and Dragons so why don't I show you how?"
A box set can have long lasting value exposing countless amounts of potential customers. I feel that cardboard or paper minis would degrage over time, no matter how well made. Plastic cast figures, such as the ones in HeroQuest, can hold up to the test of time. My own copy came with a handful of broken figures, but for the 17 years I've owned it not another one has faltered.
I almost want to mock up the hero cards, spells, items, monsters, GM cards, a few dungeon layouts, and the rule set myself...
Well, as a parent...
I would be buying this sort of thing for a 10 year old.
I would not be buying it for a fellow adult.
The kids love seeing counters on the table, lots of dice being thrown around... good guys and bad guys and not a lot about cumbersome rules.
So some cheap-cheap plastic dice, a small rulebook (A4 size softcover) and a few cut out maps and counters with iconics they could cut out would be ideal.
Frankly I'd have the races, and a limited selection of the more generic classes. The classes would come with fixed 'Feats' already locked down (or a very limited paint by numbers option chain) and a very cut down gear list.
If the kids cant pick it up and have a stab at it in under 30 minutes they will put the thing down and disappear off to play the Wii. The boxed set will then go to the bottom of a cupboard only to see the light of day again many years later at a boot-sale.
What I always liked about this game is that to start all you have to do is unfold the board. Pick a character, write down a name, and have the GM lead the way. The whole thing builds itself as you play
There's a reason that game goes for hundred of dollars now.
Something like this?
The bastard love-child of basic D&D and HeroQuest would be rolled gold.
Something like this?The bastard love-child of basic D&D and HeroQuest would be rolled gold.
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I'd really like to see an intro game that goes to level 6. Mostly because it would be easy to add a fan-made supplement to turn it into E6. I would still buy an intro set that went to level 4 or so though. It would be a handy reference for a beginning game. Certainly my fondest memories were of games that took place in the 1-3 range. Particularly because the only adventures I had for the longest time was the B1-9 collected set.
I still think this is a great idea. Either using the E6 concept or building the intro game so that it can be integrated easily with E6 or PFRPG.
Actually, there are a few reasons why 6th level might be the perfect level to stop. 3rd level spells and second attacks... just enough to whet the appetite for more, and the second attack could just be explained as a special ability instead of a full attack.
It is :D... at a price. Plus a bit more.
Nice!
I was thinking something a bit cheaper though, as an intro product...
Aggressively priced to bring the pricepoint low enough for people to dip their toe in and then pay for the full price game.
A bit like a demo version of a game :p