My party was in a town that was being raided by goblins, we finished a few, and heard screams comomming from the plaza. In our way there we where ambush in an alley between to houses by 6 goblins in rooftop's, the DM tolds that the goblins had cover.
I asked that the GM what the rooftops where made of and he told me that they where made of straw, so I proceed to cast spark on a rooftop. One goblin died from the D6 of fire damage and the other 2 at his side jumped from rooftop to avoid the expanding fire, failed their acrobatics and died from the falling damage.
Second, round I did the same but this time my companions where waiting the goblins on the floor and finish them with attacks of oportunity before they touched the ground.
I think my GM wants to nerf the cantrip.
Humbly,
Yaway
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If someone wants to take refuge in a building made of *EXTREMELY* flammable material when the opponent has fire, they deserve to die horribly. Nothing wrong with this IMO.
Though if I felt it was destroying the fun of the encounter I'd just have citizens start screaming from inside one of the, now burning buildings, and have the fire start spreading. This would shift the focus of the "encounter" from goblins to stopping a spreading fire and rescuing civilians.
EDIT: Note that the same thing could have been accomplished with a 1cp torch and a good toss.
What you should have done is had it rain on them with infinite Create Water.
I used Create Water immediately afterwards, so the fire didn't spread to much.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Cantrips can be pretty damn useful. Hoping Paizo includes some kind of low-level telekinesis cantrip like Launch Item in the Ultimate Magic book; at low levels that really gives a wizard a lot more options for when he runs out of spells (lob acid flasks or alchemists' fire or horse biscuits without huge range penalties).
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You could use mage hand for this, tho it would be more of "drop" item as opposed to "launch" item. As the sepll is extremely weak for throwing things.(max 5 pounds is a very low str.)but you could hold the alchemical items above the targets head and release "BOOM". has a range of short but perfectly acceptable for a cantrip.
are you sure that prestigitation cannot start a fire anymore?
my interpretation of the the spells is: spark = start a fire of easily flammable material like straw or paper.
Prestigitation = start a fire of highly flammable material, like oil.
Prestidigitation does minor magical effects that are not accomplished by other spells. Spark can light oil on fire. Therefore, my interpretation is that prestidigitation can no longer light oil on fire.
You could always get technical and debate HOW both spells set things on fire. Spark is, well, a spark. Prestidigitation could always involve a bit less in the spark dept (a burning ember or an electric spark) and a bit more in the constant heat dept (heat up a tiny spot hot enough for it to reach flash-point or spontaneously combust). There's no reason for prestidigitation to lose hilarity just because something different comes out just as there's no reason for fireball to ever go out of style no matter how many direct-damage spells end up in the books.
Prestidigitation does minor magical effects that are not accomplished by other spells. Spark can light oil on fire. Therefore, my interpretation is that prestidigitation can no longer light oil on fire.
Spark lights something on fire while it's over 30 feet away. Prestidigitation lights it while you're right next to it. If you reduce prestidigitation's power every time a new cantrip comes up, you seriously nerf its utility.
Much more.. anoying is create water...
Try to producing some presure by some burning buildings... *snip* 2x lvl/gallons water... fire extinguished...
enemy charges toward player... *snip* 2xlevel/gallons of water right over his head...
etc. etc. etc.
Have a Oracle and a Druid in my group which use this f... spell over and over for EVERY situation... and 12 gallons water is something which has weight...
I hate this spell !
(you can't even sent a lvl 1 group into a desert, to playing something with dying of thirst.. *snip* two gallons water, every 6 seconds...)
(you can't even sent a lvl 1 group into a desert, to playing something with dying of thirst.. *snip* two gallons water, every 6 seconds...)
Yes, welcome to a fantasy world with magic. Simple problems do NOT exist for even low level magic users.
enemy charges toward player... *snip* 2xlevel/gallons of water right over his head...my druid yet didn't figured many uses of his orisons (or maybe its just me...). But I´m curious how that could work?
Character casts the cantrip, water falls from the sky.
What I find confusing is how this affects combat in any meaningful way.
enemy charges toward player... *snip* 2xlevel/gallons of water right over his head...my druid yet didn't figured many uses of his orisons (or maybe its just me...). But I´m curious how that could work?Character casts the cantrip, water falls from the sky.
What I find confusing is how this affects combat in any meaningful way.
Only if it's funny...
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Create water can affect combat in meaningful ways. It's just subtle. You can create water, for instance, to make dirt into mud (minor terrain modification), or to splash into a square that has an invisible creature in it. In some terrains, you can make a puddle of water that will conduct electricity (well, it might, depending on the DM). You can use it alongside ray of frost to make slippery ice...
Lots of little things. Nothing amazing, but that's why it's just a level 0 spell.
I've allowed the "make it rain to help locate an invisible character" trick, but the way this was worded...
"Have a Oracle and a Druid in my group which use this f... spell over and over for EVERY situation... and 12 gallons water is something which has weight...
I hate this spell !"
...makes it seem like there's some benefit for almost every fight.
I just don't see it.
I hate this spell !
(you can't even sent a lvl 1 group into a desert, to playing something with dying of thirst.. *snip* two gallons water, every 6 seconds...)
Ironically, even in 3.5, they'd have to be level one, because once you hit level two, they can easily use the orizons they have to bypass the desert.
Call me crazy, but "sending the level 1 group to die of thirst" isn't something I came across often in games.
Or, like, ever.
Well, except in Dark Sun, but that's a special case.
Combat vs. SpongeBob Squarepants?
= Slow spell lol
I would probably rule that a few gallons of water like that dumped on your head would impose some sort of -2 penalty for 1 round, spend clearing the water from your eyes or what not... But only for one round.
If we are talking huge amount of water then I'd look at how much that much water weighed and go from there... Again, it's a 0-lvl spell, and used offensively I'd consider giving a reflex save to avoid it...
I just remember the infamous Dry Lich from Sandstorm. Why is it infamous, you may think. Because it was the only high level monster out ther who can be relaibly taken down with a single casting of a an orison).
2 gallon = 12 pints = 24d4/level
Note: I'm on the metric so not so sure aboput the conversions.
Humbly,
Yawar
What I find confusing is how this affects combat in any meaningful way.
12 Gallons are ~ 44 Kg, do you ever get 44 kg on your head? (or only 10?)
1. This hurts a lot, if not knock you unconscious2. It distracts you
The Druid in my group is a player who always try to think about corners and find new ways of spell use...
e.g. create water + shocking grasp... AE-Shock
What I find confusing is how this affects combat in any meaningful way.12 Gallons are ~ 44 Kg, do you ever get 44 kg on your head? (or only 10?)
1. This hurts a lot, if not knock you unconscious
2. It distracts youThe Druid in my group is a player who always try to think about corners and find new ways of spell use...
e.g. create water + shocking grasp... AE-Shock
That 12 gallons of water are not in a container, therefore all said Druid has done is create 1 round of marginally heavy rainfall. A distraction to be sure, but a far cry from dropping a 44Kg rock on someone. The above reference to changing terrain from dry dirt to mud is much more likely.
And water itself does not conduct electricity, it's the presence of other elements dissolved in the water that conduct the electricity. Magically created water is likely pure water.
I'm all for trying unusual uses for spells, but common sense should prevail in certain circumstances. 0-level spells should be useful, but not overly so, and the GM is well within their rights to limit how useful.
[And water itself does not conduct electricity, it's the presence of other elements dissolved in the water that conduct the electricity. Magically created water is likely pure water.
So drinking this, will kill you...
(you can't even sent a lvl 1 group into a desert, to playing something with dying of thirst.. *snip* two gallons water, every 6 seconds...)
Yeah, I've got a desert-based game starting up and I'm thinking of houseruling that create water is a level 1 spell instead.
I don't mind that level 1 casters have a resource that allows them to largely ignore concerns about where water's going to come from; I do mind that they can create a (for practical purposes) infinite amount of water. If a level 1 cleric is many times better than finding an oasis, that really distorts a PF desert and its dynamics/economy/etc. from real-world more than I like.
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e.g. create water + shocking grasp... AE-Shock
Check out the Mythbusters' test of the old "peeing on an electric fence" myth for a real-world explanation of why this won't work.
For reference, "Rain: Rain reduces visibility ranges by half, resulting in a –4 penalty on Perception checks. It has the same effect on flames, ranged weapon attacks, and Perception checks as severe wind." (Core rulebook p.438) So there's no combat or movement penalty, even for continuous heavy rain.
If a GM want to rule that create water creates a mass of water that remains together outside a container and acts as a solid and falls on someone's head and knocks them out, that's up to them - but that's not what would happen given realistic gravity and physics. Getting someone wet probably should give your shocking grasp the equivalent of the person wearing metal armor (so +3 to hit them), but that's about it. And note that it is create water, not shape water - the player gets no say in where the water appears beyond specifying a target point.
Personally, I'd either give a reflex save to the target or require a serious perception check to judge exactly where to create the water so that when the spell is finished you hit your moving target. Players seem to assume that because there's a grid on the table to help regulate play and movement isn't played simultaneously, that they suddenly have laser rangefinders and atomic clocks built into their heads...
It's great when players want to mix magic and real-world physics, but that requires the GM to understand physics and apply it consistantly. If the GM lets the players convince him/her that create water is an at-will water cannon, well, your game is pretty much hosed. :)
Seriously, though, I don't like one thing about spark: starting fires used to be the job of prestidigitation.
Back in the day, Fire Finger was how we started fires... and arc-wielded doors shut, lol.
In 2E I use to use Create Water like the carnival guns, readying an action for a caster to begin casting and .... *WHOOSH!* stream of gallons of water to the mouth... what fun is it really without a balloon to pop and competition though? Pretty much every DM I've had in 3.5E+ has ruled against it being used as a combat spell despite the obvious weight and/or distraction 12+ gallons of water creates. Funny considering most of them reward creativity... except for THAT spell. :\
Pretty much every DM I've had in 3.5E+ has ruled against it being used as a combat spell despite the obvious weight and/or distraction 12+ gallons of water creates. Funny considering most of them reward creativity... except for THAT spell. :\
Probably because as DM, game balance trumps realism pretty much every time. Actually, looking through the rules, a lot of the time something doesn't make logical sense it was because balance needed to be maintained.
I don't think anyone would realistically argue that dumping a small fish tank's worth of water on someone's head wouldn't be a distraction. However, allowing a 1st level caster to disrupt other spellcasters at will with a 0-level spell certainly runs the risk of unbalancing games in an unfun way. Doing it once or twice might be fun and creative (although I would still make it require a successful touch attack, at the very least). Having it become a standard tactic would be annoying, and possibly unbalancing.
What I find confusing is how this affects combat in any meaningful way.12 Gallons are ~ 44 Kg, do you ever get 44 kg on your head? (or only 10?)
1. This hurts a lot, if not knock you unconscious
2. It distracts youThe Druid in my group is a player who always try to think about corners and find new ways of spell use...
e.g. create water + shocking grasp... AE-Shock
First of all, "create water + shocking grasp" does not equal an Area of Effect Shocking Grasp. That's called "making crap up". If you want to allow that in your campaign, that's fine, but you're the one who's causing the problem. Not the spell or the player. You don't get to complain about something being too powerful when you're the one who's changed what it can do.
As for your "weight of water" argument, That's a total "fail" as well.
"12 Gallons are ~ 44 Kg, do you ever get 44 kg on your head? (or only 10?)"
Yes, actually, I have. I've stood beneath waterfalls on three continents. I've also made a living as a whitewater raft guide, river guide, Trip Leader, Swiftwater Rescue Technician, and Swiftwater Rescue Instructor. So unless you're a university educated (and working) hydrologist....
"1. This hurts a lot, if not knock you unconscious"
B.S., pure and total. if this were true, then every weekend, after every American Football game, coaches around the country would be getting knocked unconscious when players dump 20 gallon of ice and GatorAid on the winning coach's head.
Water offers very little resistance unless it, or an object, is traveling at very high speeds. It's called "create water", not "create giant cube of ice" or "create downward geyser."
"2. It distracts you"
Not significantly. I've done plenty of things in a waterfall that required lots of concentration (or else you slip, fall, and never get have to kids). I'm happy to report that I've been always been successful. ;)
In summary: Create Water isn't an attack spell. It has no save, no attack roll, makes no mention of affecting spell casting. If you want to add things to the spell to make it an attack spell, that's fine. But the results are on you, not on the game.
That kills certain uber liches in a single cast.
That kills certain uber liches in a single cast.
If a DM allows a 0-level spell to be a "NO save AND die" spell, then he/she deserves the game that he/she gets.
That kills certain uber liches in a single cast.If a DM allows a 0-level spell to be a "NO save AND die" spell, then he/she deserves the game that he/she gets.
Well the DM could cheat, but otherwise 'dem's da rules. You can create water on your turn, filling an area with the water as appropriate, and if the dry lich is in the area, well looky, he just took a metric ton of damage. :P
On a side note, it's easier said than done. Last I checked you cannot create water over peoples heads. As part of being a conjuration spell, you have to summon it onto or into something; so you can't summon water over someone's head in the same way you can't summon a fiendish elephant to deal falling damage to someone without first having the elephant be on a platform of some sort and then diving on the enemy.
First of all, "create water + shocking grasp" does not equal an Area of Effect Shocking Grasp. That's called "making crap up". If you want to allow that in your campaign, that's fine, but you're the one who's causing the problem. Not the spell or the player. You don't get to complain about something being too powerful when you're the one who's changed what it can do.As for your "weight of water" argument, That's a total "fail" as well.
"12 Gallons are ~ 44 Kg, do you ever get 44 kg on your head? (or only 10?)"
Yes, actually, I have. I've stood beneath waterfalls on three continents. I've also made a living as a whitewater raft guide, river guide, Trip Leader, Swiftwater Rescue Technician, and Swiftwater Rescue Instructor. So unless you're a university educated (and working) hydrologist....
"1. This hurts a lot, if not knock you unconscious"
B.S., pure and total. if this were true, then every weekend, after every American Football game, coaches around the country would be getting knocked unconscious when players dump 20 gallon of ice and GatorAid on the winning coach's head.
Water offers very little resistance unless it, or an object, is traveling at very high speeds. It's called "create water", not "create giant cube of ice" or "create downward geyser."
"2. It distracts you"
Not significantly. I've done plenty of things in a waterfall that required lots of concentration (or else you slip, fall, and never get have to kids). I'm happy to report that I've been always been successful. ;)
In summary: Create Water isn't an attack spell. It has no save, no attack roll, makes...
So high speed is your point...
One round is how long? 3 to 6 seconds?The range is 25ft + 5ft/2 levels = (at 6 lvl) 55 ft or 18 m
take this togehter with the earth gravitation (9,81m/s^2) and you get a average impact speed from 13,87 m/s ~ 50 km/h
Is this fast enough?
Ever jumped head front from a 18m tower into water? This hurts. :)
I understand your point and I totaly agree, create water should be a utility spell, no combat spell, but if you have F***** discussing players, you will have such thinks. :)
Maybe a restriction with a Focus, some sort of container, would help... I think I will implement this. :)
P.S.: I simply like to discuss, sorry no offense. :)
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On a side note, it's easier said than done. Last I checked you cannot create water over peoples heads. As part of being a conjuration spell, you have to summon it onto or into something;
Actually, the spell states that "Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large--possibly creating a downpour"
So it could be used to create water over someone's head; not a blob of water, but a very heavy rain (well, more than a rain really, seeing as how 1/3 of the volume will be water). Still, not nearly so that you could use it as an attack spell.
Now, I would allow it to disturb a caster under certain circumstances. If the player readies an action to do it, and the caster in question didn't know there was another mage nearby (by the player not having descriptive clothing and the like), I'd probably let the shock of a cold shower be enough to force a concentration check of an appropriate DC. That's kind of a once only though, as he'll be prepared for more of that later.
If it IS enough to disrupt casters, then every caster will know that it might be coming, since it's a 0-level spell. It's just like how most casters know that an enemy might very well cast magic missile, just that this spell is even more likely to come up.
So, the point is: If a cold shower is enough to disturb a caster, every caster will expect a cold shower when in the vicinity of a hostile caster.
You know ... I *really* do not like the glut of 0-level spells.
I liked the concept *at first* when 3.0 came out. It gave a few neat uses of some really minor/marginal spells (like Create Water) and kept more powerful/useful spells at level 1.
It's one thing that 2e did better, IMO, overall: spell restrictions.
I think I'll go through the 0-level spells and "re-level" them a bit to basically make them go away, or cost more resources (ie: level 1 bumps ... like Create Water).
0-levels were never about being all that combat-effective, but more like an added dimension of *minor* utility type spells. I like the feel of that.
PF increased the utility, but the effects should *still* be minor. Creating GALLONS in multiples of water is not *minor* by any means, IMO - that's a LOT of water. It should be a level 1 spell just based on the volume it can produce and the potential for producing THAT much water (realistically - rules be damned) in such a short time frame. Distractions and reflex saves or be tripped come to mind here, as well as increased DC vs. electric-type effects. Stuff that just makes sense, honestly.
Hmm ... definitely going to be looking over those 0-level spells again.
That kills certain uber liches in a single cast.Except it really doesn't in the same way that you can't pour ten vials of alchemist fire into a larger container and claim it does 10d6 damage. If this is a problem the answer is simple, get a sane DM.
Of course, if it's enough water to effectively immerse the lich, the rules shift...
The obvious answer is for every dry lich to own a ring of counterspelling with [i]create water[/w] in it.
I don't think it works like that.
Time to actually do the math.
12 gallons of water is 12 x 231 cubic inches = 2,772ci.
A 5ft square is 60" x 60" = 3,600 square inches.
What that means is that 12 gallons of water laid in a sheet filling a 5ft square is less than one inch thick.
Don't imagine a gas can falling on your head. Imagine a .75" thick sheet of water falling on your head and shoulders. Big deal. Aside from a little water running down your forehead, it's not got combat impact. And since I doubt anyone really plays with penalties for fighting in the rain, it's again got no combat impact.
And that's at sixth level, when you've hopefully got something useful to do with your time other than casting create water.
Water wieghts about 8 lbs./gallon. So a 5 gallon bucket. Think knee high paint bucket about weights 40lbs. Water is heavy. A barrel weights say 10 lbs. Create water fills the barrel with 10 gallons of water which now weights 90 lbs. Push it off a ledge and it could kill or injury someone. So the spell could be used in combat if you prepared for it.