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Except putting it in a PvP situation vs the Cleric isn't a valid comparison OR a valid proof of effectiveness.To be fair to Cartigan, a magus should be able to kick his cleric's ass in a PvP fight. His cleric is much more useful to the party as a healer, while the Magus's job is to hurt stuff.
It isn't unbalanced that the Magus can crush a cleric head up, because a cleric can heal the party, much like a bard can buff a party.
My point in doing this is to show the Magus can do it's job (damage dealer) very effectively.
It wasn't my idea. It was yours.
I quote you from this thread.
"It's called a class that is bad at what it is designed to do. Who is going to play it as a PC?
Should I cobble together a Cleric and show how it is better as a melee combat-caster than the Magus?
I won't even insult your intelligence by doing it with a combat-oriented Druid."
Do you still want to make a Druid? I would curious, as that is a more appropriate head up match up.
It wasn't my idea. It was yours.
I said I could make a melee combat-caster Cleric better than the Magus. Not that it could beat up the Magus in some imaginary one on one fight.
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To be fair, he never said anything about pitting the two against each other.
Ninja'd. My iPhone is slow.
Fair enough. Let's define the criteria then.
What do you define as "better"
The Magus does more damage per round. The Magus has more skills. The Magus has a higher attack and comparable damage. You have a higher AC, I have more hit points.
I did a breakdown of pros and cons for my argument, I look at the two and taking into consideration Clerics are healers and Magus have more effective damage spells, I would say they are comparably effective at the same level.
Which is the goal.
I'm open for a counter argument.
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Alright, a situation arises.
As you walk through the streets of the city of Madeupville the ground begins to shudder and crack, heaving up. A gray-yellow tentacle flails up, followed by the rest of the mass of the Otyugh.
There is now a 15ft hole ajacent to the Otyugh through which it made it's ascent. The street is 30ft wide and flanked by three-story tenament buildings each about 45ft wide, with a few small five foot alley ways here or there. A few vendors stalls are around.
People flee in terror, others look to you. The beast is about sixty feet away from you at this point, and has only now finished climbing out of the street's rubble. The hole is directly behind it. What do you do?
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Alright, a situation arises.
As you walk through the streets of the city of Madeupville the ground begins to shudder and crack, heaving up. A gray-yellow tentacle flails up, followed by the rest of the mass of the Otyugh.
There is now a 15ft hole ajacent to the Otyugh through which it made it's ascent. The street is 30ft wide and flanked by three-story tenament buildings each about 45ft wide, with a few small five foot alley ways here or there. A few vendors stalls are around.
People flee in terror, others look to you. The beast is about sixty feet away from you at this point, and has only now finished climbing out of the street's rubble. The hole is directly behind it. What do you do?
Probably start with scorching ray (no need to burn a higher level at this point lest I need it later, same for empowering). Touch attack is going to be needed, I'm at BAB 5+1 for dex, so I need to roll at least a 3 on each. Each will hit for 4d6 damage, so assuming both hit average damage is 24 (if someone wants to dice roll it, I'll trust them)
I probably wouldn't move at this point, as I want him to close in so I can do a full attack if I decide to go into melee.
The Magus does more damage per round.
Using spells.
The Magus has more skills.
Benefit of being an Int based class.
The Magus has a higher attack and comparable damage.
He has lower attack and comparable damage when using spells.
You have a higher AC, I have more hit points.
Believe you me, that means squat. And I could, as a Cleric, jack up my AC another 4+ points. I'll take that over another dozen HP anyway. Though Divine Power does give temp HP anyway.
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The Magus does more damage per round.Using spells.
The Magus has more skills.Benefit of being an Int based class.
The Magus has a higher attack and comparable damage.He has lower attack and comparable damage when using spells.
You have a higher AC, I have more hit points.Believe you me, that means squat. And I could, as a Cleric, jack up my AC another 4+ points. I'll take that over another dozen HP anyway. Though Divine Power does give temp HP anyway.
1) Yes using spells. It's a caster class. See point 4.
2) Yes, the Magus is an Intelligence based class, and this is a benefit of being one.
3) I am at +13 to attack with my longsword, you are at +12. 13 is greater than 12, the extra point I get coming from Arcane Weapon.
4) And I can cast shield, and also bump my AC up 4. I can also turn invisible, cast haste so I get two attacks at full BAB, and we can both enlarge. These are spells, we both have them. And so since we have them, we use them. And my spells do more damage than your spells.
Alright, a situation arises.
As you walk through the streets of the city of Madeupville the ground begins to shudder and crack, heaving up. A gray-yellow tentacle flails up, followed by the rest of the mass of the Otyugh.
There is now a 15ft hole ajacent to the Otyugh through which it made it's ascent. The street is 30ft wide and flanked by three-story tenament buildings each about 45ft wide, with a few small five foot alley ways here or there. A few vendors stalls are around.
People flee in terror, others look to you. The beast is about sixty feet away from you at this point, and has only now finished climbing out of the street's rubble. The hole is directly behind it. What do you do?
Cast Shield of Faith. Move max towards Otyugh.
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Cast Shield of Faith. Move max towards Otyugh.Alright, a situation arises.
As you walk through the streets of the city of Madeupville the ground begins to shudder and crack, heaving up. A gray-yellow tentacle flails up, followed by the rest of the mass of the Otyugh.
There is now a 15ft hole ajacent to the Otyugh through which it made it's ascent. The street is 30ft wide and flanked by three-story tenament buildings each about 45ft wide, with a few small five foot alley ways here or there. A few vendors stalls are around.
People flee in terror, others look to you. The beast is about sixty feet away from you at this point, and has only now finished climbing out of the street's rubble. The hole is directly behind it. What do you do?
So you are now 40 feet from the Otyugh with a 25 AC.
I am still 60 feet away, with the Otyugh down an average of 24 hp.
You burned a 1st level, I burned a 2nd.
I think the point was that taking EK X instead of straight magus being a no brainer is a bad thing...except I don't really consider the magus going into EK exactly a no brainer....I think the most unfortunate thing about the class is that even the Gish base class is better off going into Eldrich Knight once he qualifies. So what's the point?How'd you reach this conclusion? At the very least you want to take the 8th level of magus before going EK. 8th includes a +1 BAB, a +1 to Fort and Will, an additional +1 bonus value out of Arcane Weapon, and the reduction to penalties of Improved Spell Combat. A Magus 8/EK X beats a Magus 7/EK X+1 every level from 8 to 17.That is what I meant, yes level 8 would be optimal levels of Magus.
How is it NOT? Lose one caster level (boohoo) and gain enough BAB to get a 4th attack EVENTUALLY. You've gotten everything good from the class why not PrC out? Especially when you AUTOMATICALLY qualify.Let's see what he misses out on by NOT going EK at level 9:
Another +2 to attack rolls while using spell combat-well he'll have a higher BAB so no loss there.
Heavy armor-meh he's better off in medium armor really.
Fighter Training-gets to add his WHOLE EK level to Ftr training, so no big loss. Although if you really want some fighter only feats, of which there are only a few worthwhile, go Magus 10.
Counterstrike-as has been said this is very weak when you get it.
An extra +2 to your weapon-I admit I'd miss this but again...higher BAB so yeah.
Bonus Feats-more in EK.
Arcana-there's only 2 or 3 worthwhile anyway. Take those before going over to EK.
The higher level metamagic arcana are well worth staying in magus, IMO.
The higher level metamagic arcana are well worth staying in magus, IMO.
So assuming you're playing an AP, which is the assumed appropriate method of judging class effectiveness and typically run to level 15, you're willing to play 6 levels of suck to get 1 level of 1/day quickened spells?
Really?
REALLY?!
Can I interest you in a time share?
Cast Shield of Faith. Move max towards Otyugh.Alright, a situation arises.
As you walk through the streets of the city of Madeupville the ground begins to shudder and crack, heaving up. A gray-yellow tentacle flails up, followed by the rest of the mass of the Otyugh.
There is now a 15ft hole ajacent to the Otyugh through which it made it's ascent. The street is 30ft wide and flanked by three-story tenament buildings each about 45ft wide, with a few small five foot alley ways here or there. A few vendors stalls are around.
People flee in terror, others look to you. The beast is about sixty feet away from you at this point, and has only now finished climbing out of the street's rubble. The hole is directly behind it. What do you do?
So you are now 40 feet from the Otyugh with a 25 AC.
I am still 60 feet away, with the Otyugh down an average of 24 hp.
You burned a 1st level, I burned a 2nd.
24 AC.
And 21 damage. To average in percentages to hit. Not that that technically makes sense since the damage is all or nothing. Let's just say you have a 90% chance to do 12 damage and a 81% chance to do 24 damage (assuming I did the correct math for combining probabilities in this situation)|
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24 AC.Cast Shield of Faith. Move max towards Otyugh.Alright, a situation arises.
As you walk through the streets of the city of Madeupville the ground begins to shudder and crack, heaving up. A gray-yellow tentacle flails up, followed by the rest of the mass of the Otyugh.
There is now a 15ft hole ajacent to the Otyugh through which it made it's ascent. The street is 30ft wide and flanked by three-story tenament buildings each about 45ft wide, with a few small five foot alley ways here or there. A few vendors stalls are around.
People flee in terror, others look to you. The beast is about sixty feet away from you at this point, and has only now finished climbing out of the street's rubble. The hole is directly behind it. What do you do?
So you are now 40 feet from the Otyugh with a 25 AC.
I am still 60 feet away, with the Otyugh down an average of 24 hp.
You burned a 1st level, I burned a 2nd.
Your right, I forgot it is a deflection bonus and doesn't stack with RoP. My bad.
The higher level metamagic arcana are well worth staying in magus, IMO.So assuming you're playing an AP, which is the assumed appropriate method of judging class effectiveness and typically run to level 15, you're willing to play 6 levels of suck to get 1 level of 1/day quickened spells?
Really?
REALLY?!
Can I interest you in a time share?
As opposed to losing a casting level, qualifying for fewer fighter feats, gaining 1-2BAB but losing 1 from arcane weapon so dealing less damage and not yet getting annother itterative, losing heavy armor, losing upgraded spell combat. Yeah, I would stick with Magus, but don't think for a second it is just for 1 quickened spell, which is a nice ability at that level.
This holds true at 2nd level, only now (with a high risk of failure) you can try to attack AND cast a spell in the same round.A class ability with a hihg risk of failure isn't really a class ability.Spell failure is what makes it balanced. Just like rogues only being able to use sneak attack when flanking or if the opponent is flat footed, and spells having saves and spell resistance.
If you take it away entirely, the class becomes unbalanced at low levels.
It really doesn't. It doesn't become overpowered in the slightest at low level.
Here's the catch - Maguses have every penalty that melee and spellcasters have...and then some.
To put it another way, imagine if sneak attack had a 1/5 chance of failing. it just did. You flank the enemy, you make your attack roll, uh oh, I rolled a 4 on my d20, your sneak attack fails.
Imagine if you had to roll each time you tried to rage to see if it worked. It didn't work? Oh well! You did nothing this round. Also, you lose your rage attempt. Same thing with bard song! "I smite the evil demon." "Roll your Do Something This Round roll!"
So, here you have the Magus. His melee attack bypassed AC. His spell managed to bypass spell resistance and the enemy failed their saving throw. Wait, that's right, you have to cast defensively and take a penalty to it and your melee attack! Whoops! Your whole round doesn't happen.
I don't really consider the magus going into EK exactly a no brainer....How is it NOT? Lose one caster level (boohoo) and gain enough BAB to get a 4th attack EVENTUALLY. You've gotten everything good from the class why not PrC out? Especially when you AUTOMATICALLY qualify.
Let's take this level-by-level, Marvin the Magus vs. Edmund the Magus-EK:
Level 9 (Magus 9 vs. Magus 8/EK 1):
Marvin has +1 Reflex, an additional magus arcana, an additional 3rd-level spell, and an additional caster level.
Edmund has +1 Fort, +1 BAB, an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 1st-level fighter for feats.
Level 10 (Magus 10 vs. Magus 8/EK 2):
Marvin has an additional magus arcana, an additional 4th-level spell, an additional caster level, and counts as a 5th-level fighter for feats/
Edmund has +1 BAB, an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 2nd-level fighter for feats.
Level 11 (Magus 11 vs. Magus 8/EK 3):
Marvin has an additional magus arcana, catches up on bonus feats, an additional 3rd and 4th-level spell, an additional caster level, and counts as a 5th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +1 BAB, +1 Fortitude, and counts as a 3rd-level fighter for feats.
Level 12 (Magus 12 vs. Magus 8/EK 4):
Marvin has +1 Reflex, +1 Will, two more magus arcanas, an additional 4th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +1 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as a 6th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +1 BAB and counts as a 4th-level fighter for feats.
Level 13 (Magus 13 vs. Magus 8/EK 5):
Marvin has two more magus arcanas, use of heavy armor, an additional 5th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +1 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as a 6th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +2 BAB, +1 Fort, an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 5th-level fighter for feats.
Level 14 (Magus 14 vs. Magus 8/EK 6):
Marvin has +1 Will, two more magus arcanas, use of heavy armor, an additional 4th and 5th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +1 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as a 7th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +2 BAB (but -2 in Spell Combat, unlike Marvin), an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 6th-level fighter for feats.
Level 15 (Magus 15 vs. Magus 8/EK 7):
Marvin has +1 Reflex, +1 Will, three more magus arcanas, use of heavy armor, an additional 5th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +1 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as a 7th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +1 Fort, +2 BAB (but -2 in Spell Combat, unlike Marvin), an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 7th-level fighter for feats.
Level 16 (Magus 16 vs. Magus 8/EK 8):
Marvin has +1 Will, three more magus arcanas, counterstrike, use of heavy armor, an additional 6th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +2 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as an 8th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +1 Fort, +2 BAB (but -2 in Spell Combat, unlike Marvin), an additional bonus feat, and counts as an 8th-level fighter for feats.
Level 17 (Magus 17 vs. Magus 8/EK 9):
Marvin has +1 Will, three more magus arcanas, counterstrike, use of heavy armor, an additional 5th and 6th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +2 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as an 8th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +2 Fort, +3 BAB (but -2 in Spell Combat, unlike Marvin), an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 9th-level fighter for feats (taking the lead for the first time).
Level 18 (Magus 18 vs. Magus 8/EK 10):
Marvin has +1 Reflex, +2 Will, four more magus arcanas, counterstrike, use of heavy armor, an additional 6th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +2 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as an 9th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +1 Fort, +3 BAB (but -2 in Spell Combat, unlike Marvin), Spell Critical, an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 10th-level fighter for feats.
Level 19 (Magus 19 vs. Magus 8/EK 10/Magus +1):
Marvin has +2 Will, three more magus arcanas, counterstrike, weapon call, use of heavy armor, an additional 6th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +2 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as an 9th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +1 Fort, +2 BAB (but -2 in Spell Combat, unlike Marvin), Spell Critical, an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 10th-level fighter for feats.
Level 20 (Magus 20 vs. Magus 8/EK 10/Magus +2):
Marvin has +2 Will, three more magus arcanas, counterstrike, weapon call, true magus, use of heavy armor, an additional 6th-level spell, an additional caster level, can add an additional +3 of bonuses to his weapon with arcane weapon, and counts as 10th-level fighter for feats.
Edmund has +1 Fort, +2 BAB (but -2 in Spell Combat, unlike Marvin), Spell Critical, an additional bonus feat, and counts as a 15th-level fighter for feats.
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I don't see the EK build as being clearly superior at any level. Different, yes; if you want to emphasize combat over spellcasting, EK lets you make that tradeoff.
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So, here you have the Magus. His melee attack bypassed AC. His spell managed to bypass spell resistance and the enemy failed their saving throw. Wait, that's right, you have to cast defensively and take a penalty to it and your melee attack! Whoops! Your whole round doesn't happen.
Um...no.
His melee attack still hits, if it bypasses AC. And he still does the melee damage. That is separate from the spell fizzling from failing to cast defensively.
If he wants to do one or the other (either cast a spell or attack) he can, without any penalty, just like any other class. It is only if he wants to do both at the same time that he has a penalty, because he is trying to do BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.
Two weapon fighting has the same penalty for attack because it functionally doubles the number of attacks at low levels. This functional doubles the number of attacks (one to hit and one for spell) at lower levels.
Rogues have to be flanking or catch someone flatfooted. Barbarians are fatigued after they rage. Rangers have penalties for two weapon fighting, and even worse ones if they don't use light weapons in the offhand. Fighters take a penalty to attack when using power attack. Wizards and Sorcerers take penalties for wearing armor, in addition to having low BAB and d6 hitpoints. Clerics only get divine spells, which tend to be less powerful than arcane spells. Paladins get even less powerful divine spells, even less often.
I've been playing for awhile, it used to be Fighters and Barbarians dominated low level and Wizards completely stunk until around 5th level, then the power switched until Fighters and Barbarians couldn't compete with casters. That has been improved on with Pathfinder, as they focus on balance.
Every class has limitations inherent in it's basic skills. Pick a level, make a character, and we can compare them. I already put up a 7th level Magus, but I'm willing to go up or down levels to compare them.
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Okay for the cartigan and ciretose, how about you all try to kill a hill giant and see who can so in the the shortest amount of time while taking the least amount of damage? Assume the encounter happens at 100 ft away. The giant will lose initative. It's the greatclub wielding giant...and he is stupid and will charge/full attack with melee if he can and throw rocks if he can not. Use whatever tactics you want, damage done will be average based on % to hit.
Sound like a good list of parameters to both of you?
Okay for the cartigan and ciretose, how about you all try to kill a hill giant and see who can so in the the shortest amount of time while taking the least amount of damage? Assume the encounter happens at 100 ft away. The giant will lose initative. It's the greatclub wielding giant...and he is stupid and will charge/full attack with melee if he can and throw rocks if he can not. Use whatever tactics you want, damage done will be average based on % to hit.
Sound like a good list of parameters to both of you?
I like where this is going. I do so hope they both accept. *makes popcorn*
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Heavy armor-meh he's better off in medium armor really.
An extra +2 to your weapon-I admit I'd miss this but again...higher BAB so yeah.
No...not really. Umless your okay with being really MAD and getting 20 dex for the mithril breast plate.
And the +3 bonus...not +2 since your gonna miss the 12th level, 16th level and 20th level bonus isn't just a some extra damage and bonus to hit. It's also extra weapon ability. Which saves you a TON of money. And lets not kid ourselves, all gish need money like crazy.
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Shocking grasp is already one of the better damage spells for its level, but it doesn't matter how much choise you have in 1st level touch spells because no matter what you will only get 1-2 per day.
Fair points, but we have to assume more touch spells will be added to make spellstrike useful at first level.
With a spellstrike like ability Shocking Grasp can be utterly deadly at low levels. Using that spell with Channel Spell was my signiture move when I played a duskblade.
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To be fair to Cartigan, a magus should be able to kick his cleric's ass in a PvP fight. His cleric is much more useful to the party as a healer, while the Magus's job is to hurt stuff.This is so wrong I think it just made me temporarily blind. The cleric is a superior melee combatant to the playtest magus, in addition to having a more powerful and versatile spell set.
Umm I picked the BEST level to gives the biggest advantage to the cleric mind you(cleric has 4th level spells and the magus is one shy of reducing spell combat)...so yeah AMiB is correct, the cleric should be wiping the floor...really.
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To be fair to Cartigan, a magus should be able to kick his cleric's ass in a PvP fight. His cleric is much more useful to the party as a healer, while the Magus's job is to hurt stuff.This is so wrong I think it just made me temporarily blind. The cleric is a superior melee combatant to the playtest magus, in addition to having a more powerful and versatile spell set.
I liked the other thread you started but here your just making blanket statements without talking through your ideas so that we can understand them. Also, the hyperbole was unnecessary and patronising; if it's not helpful, leave it at home.
Ciretose and Cartigan have cooked up characters to show a comparison and begun testing them in a couple of different situations. In the other thread you said you had playtested - did that shed any light on melee cleric vs. magus?
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Okay for the cartigan and ciretose, how about you all try to kill a hill giant and see who can so in the the shortest amount of time while taking the least amount of damage? Assume the encounter happens at 100 ft away. The giant will lose initative. It's the greatclub wielding giant...and he is stupid and will charge/full attack with melee if he can and throw rocks if he can not. Use whatever tactics you want, damage done will be average based on % to hit.
Sound like a good list of parameters to both of you?
Round 1 I cast fly and get above the giant so he can only throw rocks, and try to stay out of his throwing range.
Round 2 lightning bolt (empowered, range 120) avg 31 damage.
Round 3 Magic Missile (Range is medium) avg damage 9.
Round 4 Cast invisibilty
Round 5 Cast shocking Grasp
Round 6-until I'm in melee range...Close in while invisible and attack with Spell Combat and Spell Strike. Average damage if I hit with attack will be 1d8 +7 (11) + 5d6 for shocking grasp (avg 15) plus scorching ray (ranged touch, need a 19 concentration, so I need to roll above a 5, with a chance to re-roll once a day with another +4 bonus) for 8d6 damage, avg of 24.
I've done 90 damage, he's dead, I'm unharmed.
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Okay for the cartigan and ciretose, how about you all try to kill a hill giant and see who can so in the the shortest amount of time while taking the least amount of damage? Assume the encounter happens at 100 ft away. The giant will lose initative. It's the greatclub wielding giant...and he is stupid and will charge/full attack with melee if he can and throw rocks if he can not. Use whatever tactics you want, damage done will be average based on % to hit.
Sound like a good list of parameters to both of you?
Round 1 I cast fly and get above the giant so he can only throw rocks, and try to stay out of his throwing range.
Round 2 lightning bolt (empowered, range 120) avg 31 damage.
Round 3 Magic Missile (Range is medium) avg damage 9.
Round 4 Cast invisibilty
Round 5 Cast shocking Grasp
Round 6-until I'm in melee range...Close in while invisible and attack with Spell Combat and Spell Strike. Average damage if I hit with attack will be 1d8 +7 (11) + 5d6 for shocking grasp (avg 15) plus scorching ray (ranged touch, need a 19 concentration, so I need to roll above a 5, with a chance to re-roll once a day with another +4 bonus) for 8d6 damage, avg of 24.
I've done 90 damage, he's dead, I'm unharmed.
That's six spells for something that could be handled with a single Hold Person, but hey.
Also - your math is off. Average result on a d6 is 3.5, not 3.
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To be fair to Cartigan, a magus should be able to kick his cleric's ass in a PvP fight. His cleric is much more useful to the party as a healer, while the Magus's job is to hurt stuff.This is so wrong I think it just made me temporarily blind. The cleric is a superior melee combatant to the playtest magus, in addition to having a more powerful and versatile spell set.
The Magus has a higher chance to hit (13 vs 12)
The Magus does comparable damage BEFORE adding any burnable spells (you can spell combat 0 level spells, adding 1d3 damage with failure only on a 1)The Magus has more hit points and is within 2 of AC. Both have shield spells and buff spells.
The Magus has 18 more skill points.
The Magus can cast haste and get two primary attacks. If he does it with spell combat he doesn't have to take a round to buff before doing this.
At Level 7. At level 8 the Magus's weapon goes up another +1 enhancement, making it +2 better than the cleric and closing the already small damage gap.
And all of this is BEFORE adding any of the arcane damage spells.
What am I missing that is blinding you?
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That's six spells for something that could be handled with a single Hold Person, but hey.
Also - your math is off. Average result on a d6 is 3.5, not 3.
True, but I just soloed a monster with the same CR as me without taking any damage.
Hold person would only last for 7 rounds, with a save each round. Hill giant gets a +3, and the save is going to be 12+ his wisdom modifier which I think was +3, so the hill giant is out of hold person with a 12 or higher.
True, but I just soloed a monster with the same CR as me without taking any damage.
Yes, it's called arcane casting. It is nice.
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And he somehow survives the first round to set up his one two combo. I don't believe he actually can take even one round of counterattacks. But let's pretend he does.
He can't take two though, so now he's dead. Total kill count: -1.
And that's with just one frost giant actually fighting back. If they focused fire, which they should by virtue of the fact they're doing HP damage he dies about halfway through round 1.
And so would any other class, at that level. Of course, all of those spells are ranged, meaning you can cast from a distance and not get hit by the things that melee.
You have a 9th level barbarian or figher solo that group and see how it works out. The Magus would actually have a shot, even at 9th level.
9d6 fireballs and lightning bolts are terrible and useless.This. Fireball and Lightning Bolt are abilities you could give to first level characters, of any class, for free, at will. And they still would not care, because they'll take one look at their 1d6 damage ability, shrug, and use something better. You could even go further than that, making Fireball and Lightning Bolt no save, no SR abilities and they STILL wouldn't get used by anyone that knows better.
When you can massively buff an ability, make it available early, and more often and it STILL sucks there's no saving it. And it certainly isn't viable by RAW (as in, without any of those buffs).
This is internet propaganda BS. Direct damage is just fine when used properly. By itself, it isn't very effective. However, save and die spells as well as battlefield control spells aren't very effective either when used exclusively.
Mix 'em up and you will have an effective caster.
If you rely too heavily on save or dies, you waste a round of actions every time someone saves. If you rely solely on direct damage you will run into something that can kill you before you can wear it down. If you use only battlefield control you can delay the enemy, but if it is determined enough, it will eventually break free and come after you again if you don't use another spell to kill it.
However, if you use battlefield control to buy time while you use other spells to wear down your opponent, then you will really begin rocking the enemy's world.
I find that all the people who say direct damage is worthless are talking about it in a vacuum. Most everything is worthless when talked about in a vacuum.
True, but I just soloed a monster with the same CR as me without taking any damage.
And you have just had a 36 second adventuring day.
And you only take no damage because you assume the giant doesn't throw a rock at you after lightning bolt.
But there's a more basic problem to that when you decide to use scorching ray. I'll let you figure that one out... but the clue would be that were I DMing and feeling impish my response would be 'you miss'.
Range?
But there's a more basic problem to that when you decide to use scorching ray. I'll let you figure that one out... but the clue would be that were I DMing and feeling impish my response would be 'you miss'.
Which is both incorrect and annoying.
Also, you both are prepared casters so you'll need to write down your spells memorized ahead of time here.
Good thing that was already done.
But while there's bookkeeping being done.. it should start with a knowledge: dungeoneering check if anyone has it.
I succeed on my Knowledge (Hit-large-tentacled-creatures-with-my-axe) check.
Mistah Green wrote: "This. Fireball and Lightning Bolt etc, etc, etc. ... Only the last HP counts."
I don't normally ever say this- but you are playing the game wrong.
If you can't make fireball and/or lightning bolt work under the default rules, you should really not be telling people "how it is" on the internet. Both spells are highly effective in a variety of situations. It isn't the win button, but it is perfectly fine for a 3rd level spell.
Also: You're fighting a giant without mirror image on yourself, and a grease spell cast on the giants weapon? I don't think you're taking advantage of the whole "caster" part of the class, which makes all the DPR and numbers kind of meaningless. A character of this class will probably have at least a 16 Int, and should know better then to fight a creature with bad Will and Reflex saves, bad touch AC, etc. on it's own terms.
Now I know you're going to try and respond by saying that you do that much damage to multiple enemies. That's precisely the problem. If you did 90 to one enemy you'd be fine. Doing 30 to three enemies just means you have three mildly annoyed but still very much alive and combat capable enemies. Only the last HP counts.
You know less than you think you do. I was not going to say anything of the sort.
I have already demonstrated in my linked thread that a simply built dedicated damage spellcaster can wipe out any classed NPC of an equivalent level in one round, and a high-hp monster of an appropriate CR in about two to three rounds. That's roughly the same amount of time it would take to get the target to fail a save or die, or for your allies to get past your own battlefield control to beat the thing to death.
Direct damage is not more powerful than other options. Not by a long shot. But I can make a heck of an argument for it being useful and as powerful (in the right situation) as save or dies, or battlefield control.
The best spellcasters use all three.
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True, but I just soloed a monster with the same CR as me without taking any damage.And you have just had a 36 second adventuring day.
And you only take no damage because you assume the giant doesn't throw a rock at you after lightning bolt.
Lightning bolt range is 120, I was already 100 feet away, so there will be some range penalties.
I did use a lot of spell. I still have a lot left. Rule of thumb is if I remember a same CR fight should use 1/4 of a party of 4s resources.
I was a party of 1, I used I would say between 1/2 and a 1/3 of my spells and took no damage.
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So you are now 40 feet from the Otyugh with a 25 AC.I am still 60 feet away, with the Otyugh down an average of 24 hp.
You burned a 1st level, I burned a 2nd.
I thought that you were each supposedly level 7, right?
So first of all you're looking at needing a either 3, 7 or 11 to hit (+6 to hit, AC 9 touch with a -4 penalty for either cover or firing into melee... I'm assuming a lack of precise/improved precise shot here).
As to the scorching ray damage, I would average it (if no cover/concealment) at an expected 26.5 damage from both rays... this drops to around 21 with cover or melee and to 14.5 if both. It's just been the surprise round and there are people fleeing, being attacked and streets likely still have things in them for cover.
But there's a more basic problem to that when you decide to use scorching ray. I'll let you figure that one out... but the clue would be that were I DMing and feeling impish my response would be 'you miss'.
Also, you both are prepared casters so you'll need to write down your spells memorized ahead of time here. But while there's bookkeeping being done.. it should start with a knowledge: dungeoneering check if anyone has it.
-James
1. Since everyone was running from the Otyugh and it was standing in the middle of the street in front of an open pit, there is no cover I can see.
2. I already posted the Magus I am using, with all of the prepared spells, prior to this post.3. Why do I need a dungeoneering check to shoot at a think that popped out of the ground?
4. Fair enough on range, if you are a hardcore DM, I just made a PC error, play on.
But let's keep playing it out, go ahead and run the Otyugh. He's 60 feet away I believe, what is he doing.
I think people are missing the point of this class in all the complaining. It’s call gaining variety without losing balance.
At first level, you have as many hp as a rogue or bard, with the ability to cast the same number of spells as a wizard, only with a smaller spell list and no familiar (or bonded weapon)
This holds true at 2nd level, only now (with a high risk of failure) you can try to attack AND cast a spell in the same round.
At third, Wizards start getting higher level spells, but the Magus gets an extra spell, starts getting a higher BAB and the ability to channel spells into Magus Arcana.
I could go on down the line, and yes there should be fine tuning, but this is a balanced class that can fill multiple rolls in each battle. You want higher BAB, burn a few spells on Magus Arcana or buff yourself up with spells. Want to blast, throw the fireball you get only two levels later than a wizard.
Would I like an Arcane Ranger Variant (trade most of the Ranger feats and maybe some skill points for the spells coming from the Arcane list), yes.
Would I like a true battle bard (Trade Bardic Performance/fascintate/etc…for full BAB), yes.
I want these things because I want options, but you have to have a trade off if you want them balanced. I want everyone at the table to have a chance to shine, because that is why it is fun. But I also want everyone to have a fear of being squashed like a bug, because that is why you feel good when you don’t get a TPK.
If you want a god mode, find a DM who will let you be a god. I think most of us find that boring.
People want the magus to be a better class BECAUSE balance matters. If you think a full BAB warrior with 6th level spells is going to break pathfinder, you and I haven't been playing the same game.
I don't know why any time somebody wants a fighter/mage character to work, people must insist they want to play 'god mode.' We've seen it from both forumites and developers, and it's really holding the class back.
*rails against direct damage spells*
Those 1d6/level spells you think are so horrible are really quite good when used properly.
At low levels (1-5) they keep you and your party alive against swarms. At middling levels (6-12) you can take out most equal-leveled NPCs in 1 round and most equal-CR'd monsters in 2-3 rounds. At high levels (13+) very few things survive your direct damage onslaught past the first round.
Some sample numbers for 1 round of direct damage:
Level 05: avg 20 damage - evoker with burning hands
Level 10: avg 119 damage - evoker with maximized empowered [10d6 spell] and quickened empowered magic missile*
Level 15: avg 224 damage - draconic bloodline half-orc sorcerer with maximized intensified fireball and a quickened maximized intensified fireball**
* Made easy via a metamagic rod
** Metamagic rods and Spell Perfection along with bonus damage from the draconic bloodline and the half-orc/sorcerer alternate favored class ability pretty much brings it all together.
If I'm not mistaken, that's keeping up with the fighter archer, one of the most damaging builds in the game (and he can't attack multiple targets at once).
You could argue that saves and SR could reduce the damage by as much as half, but not all the archer's arrows are going to land either.