My campaigns are divided into four distinct levels. EL6 is 99% of the people in existence...the best of normal folks can never hope to get past 6th, but they can expand laterally...more feats, skills, class abilities, but HD, BAB, etc, can only be refined by taking other classes, they can't exceed level 6 limits.
If you are Homo Sapiens Magos, you are 'Powered'. You can reach EL10. Your lifespan is +10 years/level. You can teleport, punch through a brick wall. Any person who can cast magic can potentially reach Ten and became one of the movers and shakers of the world. Most are still EL6 and lower, of course.
I also enforce stats/levels. To make a level in a class, you need 10+class level in that class. No reaching wizard/10 without a 20 unbuffed Int. Since most people are not going to reach that Int without getting older, most people never reach TEn.
Past Ten is Superhuman. The lifestyle of Tens and those below fade away as you start doing things they can't imagine, taking on monsters solo that Tens need to team up on, or that could obliterate small armies of Sixes. You can do alone what would take thousands of others working together, and do it faster, better, longer. Your lifespan continues to increase as power accumulates to you (think Harry Dresden wizards), giving you the time to accomplish what you want. You can accomplish incredible things on the Road to the Eternal, as you attempt to stamp your name and legend into reality for all time.
At 21, you cease to age, and you're no longer truly mortal. Mortal concerns are no longer yours, they are things for mortals to take care of. You are dealing with the ageless, the divine, the Eternals of other worlds (devas, demons, devils, etc) and pursuing epic quests that it's better low level people never really learn take place.
At 31, you're Divine by one means or another...a quasi-deity if you have no followers, demigod by your own power and acclaim if otherwise...even if you don't want to be. You're simply that powerful.
Tens are your basic fantasy heroes. The ones who found kingdoms, take on fell enemies, band together to bring down terrible foes. Past Ten, it becomes increasingly solo play, or leader+followers as characters fracture. You don't become a legend by your name being subsumed by a group...the group becomes great because you are the on leading it! The 'party' becomes more a case of you leading those willing to help you as a favor to their own legends banding together to take down a foe you can't vanish together, not a continuing epic of a group of PC's, except in the rarest cases.
At Eternal level, your Road is complete, and a new one beckons that may or may not have anything to do with those you met in mortal life. You are going to be dealing with things older then the human race, in some cases, the eyes of the divine are on you, and you've got dreams of your own.
---The game changes at Epic levels. Tens found nations. Post-tens conquer empires. Eternals rule worlds entire, and muck with gods.
===Aelryinth
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Okay, this is the third time I've tried to write this. Short version:
No, epic is not as important as new monster books or APs over all, however, it does fill a niche, one that lets the game continue after you've got the awesome ability you have been working towards for 20 level. So, you are right: if you crunch the numbers Epic may not look that important but I don't play because of the numbers. I just don't want to have to stop after I have put that much time into a character or a game just because they are 20th level.
And yes, I can house rule it if I want to, and I do, but I could use some help from people who write this stuff in the first place. I don't have as much time or as much experience as Paizo does. It is not about having a +12 to attack and Damage, it is about carrying the game a little bit beyond the "last level" with more than what is in my head and what was printed three editions ago.
Just my thoughts.
That is one articulate thought there smitter, way to win them over,
I am not editing
Could not resist the urge...
impotent - lacking the power or ability to act.important - of great significance or value.
Oh, and I like your argument.
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Thank for the heads-up, but I was already aware of it. You'll see me in a lot of the older threads (heck, my contribution is even acknowledge in the book), but unfortunately the designer has moved where I can't follow... 4e :-)
Check out the "Immortals Handbook" set of books, right now their are only two, because the man writing them is doing it alone. However the two out right now are Immortals Handbook - Ascension, and Beastiary.
Well, Ascension is really more targeted to characters who have become gods than to those who are merely epic level. And is the guy who made them still doing anything at all? The website hasn't been updated since 2008, I haven't seen any releases since the two books mentioned, for ANY system, d20, 4e, or other.
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What's really lacking is good support material for the GM. I'll be honest, even as an experienced GM of nearly 20 years I am intimidated by Epic levels. I admit designing encounters, building monsters, etc is a LOT of work for me. When the work of it outweighs the fun it starts to become a chore. Players don't always appreciate the work a GM puts into letting their characters shine and mop the floor with world shattering monsters.
Hell as many have posted few Campaigns go past 10th, let alone survive to 20th. So when you talk about getting the Epic experience you fail to explain where to get said experience.
I've only taken my group past 15th level 3 times since 3rd edition came out, the highest being level 23. My players would love if I let them bust out their Epic group to do some more Demon Lord stomping and I would too... but providing challenges sometimes seems to be beyond my ability to manage.
--Vrock & Awe
I actually think of Epic as traveling the planes, becoming demigods, fighting demon lords, etc.Interestingly, Shackled City had two of those three things, all before 11th level if I recall correctly. And the third, if you counted the Smoking Eye template.
The other thing that comes to mind when I think epic of late is the trials of Hercules.
I actually think of Epic as traveling the planes, becoming demigods, fighting demon lords, etc.Interestingly, Shackled City had two of those three things, all before 11th level if I recall correctly. And the third, if you counted the Smoking Eye template.
The difference I think though is that in the non-epic game you are working against the Demon Lord to prevent his plans, but the demon lord doesn't know who you are. In the epic version the demon lords goal is to kill the party, their families, town, etc.
As someone who's running a high-level campaign, and whose session last night had characters routinely using dimension door and teleport to bypass getting wet, routinely dealing 100 or more damage per round in melee combat, multiple crits per round, casually casting a normal spell and a quickened spell each round for multiple rounds, with ACs in the 30s, Stealth check results in the 40s, and spells that give them an additional +8 to hit and damage, I wonder...
... how much more superhero do you need to get?
I dunno. Pit those characters against Achaekek and some of his divine servants and see how they fare.
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I hate the use of the word "epic" to mean past-20. "Epic" isn't a power level, it's a story type.
This is an important point. For epic level games to be meaningful, they must be qualitatively different to the adventures that lesser characters participate in. An epic style of play should be all about taking your campaign beyond the crowning moment of awesome at the climax of an adventure path. The desire to turn everything up to eleven is one reason why stories with an epic feel are so damn hard to run - they demand a lot of creativity and energy from the GM. But they can also be extremely rewarding if you can pull them off successfully.
One of the great things about the 1st edition D&D rulebooks was the suggestion that high-level play would be about more than just fighting bigger and badder monsters. There were hints that player characters would become gradually important champions of their alignment, perhaps carving out a personal territory for themselves, or recovering ancient artifacts, or performing deeds with mythological significance. There was also a vague sense that at some point the characters crossed a threshold and began to draw the attention of the greater powers, for good or ill. The characters go from being big fish in a small pond to small fish in an ocean the size of the multiverse.
If Paizo eventually does an epic level sourcebook, I would love to see a work that defines epic adventures as a new style of play that opens up as the characters reach the pinnacle of their career....
+1 for artefacts for the epic PCs (or at least some detailed guidelines for DM how to create and balance them). Something iconic belonging to them becoming an item of legends. Something being a material proof of their masters former greatness that could be used later. I thing it is a rewarding moment if the group encounters a well known item reminding them of their different PCs past achievments and lasting impact the've made upon the world (not that it can't be used with non-artefact items, but...).
+1 for artefacts for the epic PCs (or at least some detailed guidelines for DM how to create and balance them). Something iconic belonging to them becoming an item of legends. Something being a material proof of their masters former greatness that could be used later. I thing it is a rewarding moment if the group encounters a well known item reminding them of their different PCs past achievments and lasting impact the've made upon the world (not that it can't be used with non-artefact items, but...).Weapons of legacy has some starting examples on bumping up legacy items to epic levels and whatnot if you wanna start there.
Those are not exactly artefacts and there's also a bit more crunch around them thn I'd like.
EDIT: Still thanks for the tip. I just wanted something simpler and some GM sdvice to back this rather than crunch.
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To quote myself from a long-ago post in a long-forgotten thread:
An idea for an epic adventures/campaign that I had once:
Demilich has a fortress in his own small-ish demiplane. He's using flux slime to drain the magic from other planes, and has been at it for a few centuries. The PC's Prime Material plane is beginning to show visible effects, with great cracks opening in the ground to oceans of flux slime, and wide swaths of dead magic zones or wild magic zones becoming common throughout the world. Traveling to other Prime Material planes reveals that some have been completely drained of all magic.
The demilich still retains a few ecentricities from his long-ago human life...in particular, a penchant for swordfighting. He uses a improved version of Magic Jar to possess warriors to combat against other warriors in an arena at his fortress. This doubles as a way to bring PCs that have gotten off-track back to the main storyline, as the group's fighter can be taken as a potential combatant.
Admittedly, I have bias since I came up with the idea, but I consider that to be a more epic adventure idea than simply deciding to go assassinate some 40th level NPCs (ie, gods).