I have been doing a lot of reading lately with the rules and with previous threads on the crafting of magic items.
I know you cannot make a spell trigger/completion magic item unless you actually have the spell prepared or is part of your known spell list. There is no way to get around that, from what I understand, even with a +5 DC.
And that is fine, but I want to clarify what is considered a spell trigger/completion magic item. From what I have read, they are considered as scrolls, wands and staves.
However, when reading up on making each of the items, they all say:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
This one was from crafting wonderous items, but you can switch out 'item' with scrolls, wands, rings, etc. Otherwise they all say the same thing.
My problem is the descriptions for all of them say you need the spells, all say the same thing as scrolls, wands and staves, which are the ones that spells are mandatory.
Which makes me think crafting ANY item you need the spell when required, and can't even use the +5 DC if you don't have it.
My situation is I am a 1st level Sorceror, and would like to take Craft Wonderous Item and Forge Ring, but I am not going to if the spells are mandatory as my known spell list is limited.
Can someone point me in the right direction where it is only for scrolls, wands and staves are the only items that absolutely need to know the spells? And where you can take the +5 DC for not having the spell for crafting wonderous items and rings?
Under creating magic items.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method
Activation: Staves use the spell trigger activation method
Scrolls are spell completion items.
The point of this is to keep a caster from having access to every spell 4th level and lower just from picking up the item creation feats. Why learn false life if you can just make a Wand of false life?
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I have been doing a lot of reading lately with the rules and with previous threads on the crafting of magic items.
I know you cannot make a spell trigger/completion magic item unless you actually have the spell prepared or is part of your known spell list. There is no way to get around that, from what I understand, even with a +5 DC.
And that is fine, but I want to clarify what is considered a spell trigger/completion magic item. From what I have read, they are considered as scrolls, wands and staves.
However, when reading up on making each of the items, they all say:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
This one was from crafting wonderous items, but you can switch out 'item' with scrolls, wands, rings, etc. Otherwise they all say the same thing.
My problem is the descriptions for all of them say you need the spells, all say the same thing as scrolls, wands and staves, which are the ones that spells are mandatory.
Which makes me think crafting ANY item you need the spell when required, and can't even use the +5 DC if you don't have it.
Pathfinder is an exception based rules system. Your cited text is in effect except when it is replaced with a more specific rule. You have to have the spell prepared, which is triggered and not useful. For things other than trigger/completion items, you may substitute the DC+5; this substituion is a more specific rule. That substitution isn't available for scrolls/potions/staves.
Ok, I was thinking that what I had cited could be substituted with the +5 DC (with the exception of spell trigger/completion items) from what I have read in the threads and the rules. However, the way it is worded, it makes it sound like you can't.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard).
When I see the word "must", it makes it sound like there is no substitution with the +5 DC.
What would really make it a whole lot easier is if Paizo actually listed the prerequisites that 'can' be substituted with a +5 DC, so there is no question.
The clarification in regards to the CL would be nice, as well.
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Ok, I was thinking that what I had cited could be substituted with the +5 DC (with the exception of spell trigger/completion items) from what I have read in the threads and the rules. However, the way it is worded, it makes it sound like you can't.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard).
When I see the word "must", it makes it sound like there is no substitution with the +5 DC.
What would really make it a whole lot easier is if Paizo actually listed the prerequisites that 'can' be substituted with a +5 DC, so there is no question.
The clarification in regards to the CL would be nice, as well.
Well, by design, when dealing with an exception based system, there is NO definitive list. It is always changing.
As for the CL thing, yeah I agree. I've been working on pulling my thoughts together for my own game and will post them tomorrow or on Monday. Not everyone will agree with them, but they should help define what should be one of two positions.
Didn't we resolve this in the other thread?
Just use scrolls.
Or pay an NPC to cast them.
Yes, well the exception based system does make it more of a grey area, IMO. I can see with a list where it 'could' be changing constantly (like a list of all the bonus types), but a prereq list for crafting items should remain pretty static.
As for the CL issue, I would really like that you could adjust your CL for ALL magic items created. Not only the fact so you can't make items beyond your CL, but they can be more powerful.
Like for example, if I have +5 Cloak of Resistance, it is only a CL of 5. Would be nice if I could craft that at my level if I am 15th level wizard as it is much more protected against opponent spells.
But I look forward to your write-up.
Didn't we resolve this in the other thread?
Just use scrolls.
Or pay an NPC to cast them.
The added expense would be too great for my liking. It's not too bad for really low spells that are needed for magic items, but when we are talking about mid to high spells, it's just an added expense I really don't want to have to pay. Besides the fact I would always have to rely on finding the scrolls, as well.
But more importantly, the kind of campaign my DM is running it will be very hard to get a hold of any kind of magic items for a long time, except ones we are lucky to find.
What bloodline are you?
Arcane
The text you quoted is essentially how the spell prerequisites work - essentially clarifying what it means for a spell to be a prerequisite. It means you, or another friendly caster, must have that spell memorized (or slot available) that day, and expend it. The use of the word "must" is in regards to the fulfillment of the prerequisite.
That prerequisite however can be avoided entirely with a +5 to the DC, as all prerequisites can (except item creation feat prerequisites, and having the spell for scrolls/wands/staves).
As for Caster Level - it's not a prerequisite, unless it says it is in the item description. Also:
Like for example, if I have +5 Cloak of Resistance, it is only a CL of 5. Would be nice if I could craft that at my level if I am 15th level wizard as it is much more protected against opponent spells.
You can.
However:
My situation is I am a 1st level Sorceror, and would like to take Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring...
To be clear - you can't take these until you are 3rd level and 7th level respectively.
Arcane
Orsm.
Did you pick a familiar or item as your Arcane bond?
This is a bit of a stretch, but i can't find anything in RAW to dismiss it.
If you picked the item, you can buy a spellbook, use Spellcraft or Read Magic to decipher it and cast your Arcane bond 1/day spell to craft.
The relevant rules are here:
p.73: Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond,
as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level.
p.78: A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.
p.219: In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
So, by RAW, you can purchase a spellbook, pay an NPC wizard to allow you to copy his/her spells into it. Then use that spellbook which has the spell you want to use for crafting as you have it in your spellbook and are capable of casting it (ie your high enough level to cast it if you wanted).
Cheeky, but i can't find any RAW that says it can't be done.
The text you quoted is essentially how the spell prerequisites work - essentially clarifying what it means for a spell to be a prerequisite. It means you, or another friendly caster, must have that spell memorized (or slot available) that day, and expend it. The use of the word "must" is in regards to the fulfillment of the prerequisite.
That prerequisite however can be avoided entirely with a +5 to the DC, as all prerequisites can (except item creation feat prerequisites, and having the spell for scrolls/wands/staves).
Yes, I understand that now, I was just saying I think they make it confusing when they start throwing around words like "must" when it truly isn't the case if you take the +5 DC. Or maybe errata the line to along something like this:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard). If the spell is not part of the creator's prepared or known spell list, they can take the +5 to the DC for each spell that needs to be added."
Yes, it takes up more text, but then it is very clear. Or, as I said earlier, they could list exactly what prerequisites apply in being able to take the +5 DC.
As for Caster Level - it's not a prerequisite, unless it says it is in the item description. Also:
Like for example, if I have +5 Cloak of Resistance, it is only a CL of 5. Would be nice if I could craft that at my level if I am 15th level wizard as it is much more protected against opponent spells.You can.
No, actually you can't. In the SRD:
Setting the Caster Level
From Magic Item Descriptions (Caster Level): For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
So as you can see, the item's caster level stipulates what it is created at.
To be clear - you can't take these until you are 3rd level and 7th level respectively.
Yes, I am aware of that. I was just saying am 1st level right now and do plan on picking them up later.
Arcane
Orsm.
Did you pick a familiar or item as your Arcane bond?
This is a bit of a stretch, but i can't find anything in RAW to dismiss it.
If you picked the item, you can buy a spellbook, use Spellcraft or Read Magic to decipher it and cast your Arcane bond 1/day spell to craft.
The relevant rules are here:
p.73: Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond,
as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level.p.78: A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.
p.219: In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
So, by RAW, you can purchase a spellbook, pay an NPC wizard to allow you to copy his/her spells into it. Then use that spellbook which has the spell you want to use for crafting as you have it in your spellbook and are capable of casting it (ie your high enough level to cast it if you wanted).
Cheeky, but i can't find any RAW that says it can't be done.
I don't know if that is something my DM would allow, to be be honest. However, it doesn't sound like I am going to need to do, anyways, as everyone is saying you can give it the +5 DC if you don't know the prerequisite spell(s). Well, besides for scrolls, wands or staves, but have no plans on taking those feats, anyways.
As for Caster Level - it's not a prerequisite, unless it says it is in the item description. Also:
Like for example, if I have +5 Cloak of Resistance, it is only a CL of 5. Would be nice if I could craft that at my level if I am 15th level wizard as it is much more protected against opponent spells.You can.No, actually you can't. In the SRD:
Setting the Caster Level
From Magic Item Descriptions (Caster Level): For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
It's not particularly relevant to this discussion, but for clarity, the sentence after the one you bolded has been removed (it's a long-time errata in D&D that has been carried over repeatedly).
On subject, I think it's important to emphasize that this text (the bolded part) is from the Descriptions section. Wherever you are quoting it from (not the "SRD", as that is 3.5) put it under "Setting the Caster Level", but that's somewhat misleading.
Nothing under item creation specifically calls out what the caster level of items that don't specifically have spell related effects must/can be. It's quite reasonable to assume you can set it to what you like (but you would also have to make the craft DC at that caster level).
So your normal Periapt of Health could not prevent or suspend Lycantrophy. You would need a special Greater Periapt of Health with a different description.
New question related to the topic at hand:
If you have a spell trigger item such as a staff with multiple spell powers, and one or more of those spells are on your spell list, but some are not, can you activate any and all powers of that item, or only those that appear on your spell list?
New question related to the topic at hand:
If you have a spell trigger item such as a staff with multiple spell powers, and one or more of those spells are on your spell list, but some are not, can you activate any and all powers of that item, or only those that appear on your spell list?
You can only activate the ones on your list. Unless you use UMD.