The Alchemical Party Face...

[Rauven]

Hi

I did some work awhile ago as a very very flavourful Kitsune Trickster excelling at being the party face, being a good skillmonkey/sneak-attacker, and getting yelled at for not noticing the f*cking trap, you garbage Rogue.

Fun times!

As I researched the character, though, one thing popped out 3 out of 4 comments everywhere: why go Rogue when you can go Alchemist??

As such, my question:
Tell me how much better an Alchemist is over the Rogue in the same parameters (excel at party-facing, preferably lying with as much teeth I would have in my mouth if I didn't have one knocked out every once in a while, being a skillmonkey, some damage).

Thank you in advance

[Rynjin]

Same skills, or more (4+Int with an Int focus. You'll probably have 7/level at low levels but climb much higher as you progress). Rogue gets jack and all that makes him a better bluffer, so skill ranks are all that's necessary.

Better damage dealing. Vivisectionist gets the same Sneak Attack progression as Rogue. Plus Mutagen to add to your Str or Dex, whichever is your attack stat. Plus buffs like Heroism. And Invisibility/Greater Invisibility Which means they're infinitely better at getting Sneak Attacks as the Rogue.

More utility. Extracts like Spider Climb, Fluid Form, Monstrous Physique.

Discoveries are on the whole about 10x better than Rogue Talents.

There is already zero reason to play a Rogue. That number drops to negative why when the Alchemist is an option.

[avr]

There are traits which make a bunch of social skills int-based which makes the alch. level with the rogue at least. Magic to buff or shapeshift pushes them up past the rogue in that sphere.

[RainyDayNinja]

For your consideration

[andreww]

avr wrote:

There are traits which make a bunch of social skills int-based which makes the alch. level with the rogue at least. Magic to buff or shapeshift pushes them up past the rogue in that sphere.

Clever Wordplay or Student of Philosophy largely allow Int based characters to blow Rogues out of the water at social skills because Charisma is often a dump stat for Rogues. Even social Rogues need to make compromises between Charisma, Con and Str/Dex. Alchemists have far less of an issue at that and Witches, Wizards, Sage Sorcerers and Psychics even less so.

[Glewistee]

Add in Student of Philosophy for more face-y goodness.

From the PRD:

You were trained in a now-defunct philosophical tradition—such as that of the now-destroyed magic universities or astrologers—and learned to use logic and reason to persuade others.

Benefit(s): You can use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier on Diplomacy checks to persuade others and on Bluff checks to convince others that a lie is true. (This trait does not affect Diplomacy checks to gather information or Bluff checks to feint in combat).

[Corvino]

Empiricist archetype Investigators can be flat-out great party faces and skillmonkeys with the Student of Philosophy trait. Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, Disable Device and UMD now completely run off INT, as does the lying part of Bluff. Add in Expanded Inspiration for free inspiration on Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Perception for extra gravy, or Underworld Inspiration for more Rogue-y skills.

Investigators are also very competent combatants once they get Studied Combat and Quick Study, though this doesn't come online until level 5.

[Rauven]

So, the Vivisectionist is the supposed way to go? I was thinking about creating a PFS character, but Vivis are still banned, right? Any PFS-enabled characters that I could use?

[blackbloodtroll]

Empiricist Investigator may be exactly what you want.

[Rauven]

Don't know why, but Empiricist just doesn't tickle my pickle... unlike Vivisectionist, whom I actually could see myself playing. The Rogue factor of hiding my identity, lying through my teeth, manipulating everyone... It just isn't there with the Empiricist. Or maybe I'm just looking at it wrong.

I can see myself using a caster that has the same traits (minus sneak att ofc). Any ideas?

[Rynjin]

So use the regular Alchemist. You get Bombs instead of Sneak Attack, and therefore even MORE utility. Toss Stinking Clouds or Dispel Magics at people.

And yes, you're looking at it wrong.

The Rogue doesn't HAVE a factor of hiding his identity, lying through his teeth, and manipulating everyone. Those are all skill points in Disguise, Stealth, Bluff, and Diplomacy.

All of which any class can take. If you have at least 4 skill points per level, you have the same "factor" as the Rogue.

[Glewistee]

Glewistee wrote:

Add in Student of Philosophy for more face-y goodness.

** spoiler omitted **

ninja'd

[Cevah]

Rauven wrote:

Hi

I did some work awhile ago as a very very flavourful Kitsune Trickster excelling at being the party face, being a good skillmonkey/sneak-attacker, and getting yelled at for not noticing the f*cking trap, you garbage Rogue.

Fun times!

As I researched the character, though, one thing popped out 3 out of 4 comments everywhere: why go Rogue when you can go Alchemist ninja??

Ninja can do all that, and with SLAs rather than spells. If you go heavy charisma, you get lots of ki points. These are useful for quick buffs or actions. You can vanish at 2nd level. You can get disguise self or ventriloquism instead. It depends on your priorities.

Forgotten Trick lets you dip any trick at any time for a bit, at the cost of extra ki.

/cevah