You have said that all of your players have agreed it is a overpowering ability....ever think of going to them for suggestion on how to balance out the power?
I am curious if they have any suggestions.
Also I'll add two personal opinions.
1) Drop the GMPC...he is not only enabling the Witch in a certain way...he is enabling the zen archer. Also...personaly the biggest problem I have encountered with GMPCs is not the fact the GM makes them gods...it is usualy the fact it divides the GM's attention when running combats..making them easier. True I don't play in your game...so I don't know but that could be a small part of the problem...you should definitly think about it.
2) This is why I hate canned modules. They are so inflexable that they can be so easy to break...but that is a topic for anotrher thread.
Anyway my advice is stop asking for advice from people who have no idea about your group...or their style of gaming and talk to the people who matter.
So 1 target once and once per round. Say 6 targets thats 6 rounds worth of work - a good percentage are going to make their saves and not be target-able for 24 hours.
Ok round one gnoll one fails save falls asleep - 5 gnolls to go round 2 gnoll fails save and goes sleepy bye byes - remaining gnolls have following options.
1. kick their fellows awake (awakened enemies can not be targeted again)
2. Kill the spell caster
Have spies and scouts watch the battle report the tactics. Gnolls target the spell caster first.
We basically all talked it over and for the sake of game balance, are going to use the variation mentioned above: Less than Witch's HD or equal to means asleep while more than the Witch's HD means staggered (same duration on both effects, rd/level).
Problem basically solved for now. I'm not as worried about the party tactics for the coming modules since the types of foes diversify a bit and there are fewer solo baddies to worry about with one failed save. The open desert terrain of the first two modules starts to diminish in favor or cities, pocket dimensions, and other terrain, so its not as much of an issue.
Again, my main issue is the Sleep Hex and its implications for any future games our group runs (specifically modules and APs), so I feel some adjudication is not out of the question.
What can I say? We're all advanced players or DMs, and in our excitement to make up with concepts with the APG created characters that overpowered the setting we were in (What seemed like good ideas for the AP turned into nearly unbeatable builds against the foes in the path.. as written)
I would argue with anyone that doesn't think the Hex is overpowered: Play through a module or any AP as far as you can and watch what happens. We have been playing with the APG since the day it came out (for that matter, we are all veterans of 3.5 since the day it came out and have been playing the game pretty much every week for the last 10 year), and so have a pretty good grasp of the power level versus other abilites. From Age of Worms to Council of Thieves, we have DM'd and played every path Paizo has put out(except Crimson Throne, but that will happen). Never in any of our games (with two exceptions in 3.5: what the Warlock could do at high level with item creation and the Ordained Champion of Hextor class... swift Power Word Kill after a full attack anyone?) did an ability strike us as being overpowered as this one has.
Yes, thousands of people playtested this class and found it to be balanced and fair, but I would argue that not every build or party composition that takes advantage of this Hex was played out, especially not the extent that two straight months of playing twice a week has done for us.
I think the elimination of the NPC might make the path a bit too hard. I think the few bad guys who are immune to the tactics described above might wipe the party without the damage output/soakage of a brute.
Thanks for advice so far nonetheless, its been useful for helping me get my "Legacy of Fire" campaign back on track. :)
Rakshaka, I completely disagree with this statement. IMHO this is a great idea. The party will likely still survive without the NPC, but they will have to change tactics and find more efficent ways of dealing with their opponents. The shoe may end up on the other foot here. Instead of you looking for ways to overcome the sleep hex, the party will now, perhaps, be a little more balanced toward the campaign.
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Not to derail, but again on the Zen Archer:
Because of him, there have never been survivors.
Speed 40 and all the aforementioned bow tricks make him one power-house of a gnoll killer. I've used cover, tricks with Hover (for debris cloud), smoke, darkness, fog clouds and the like to combat the effectiveness some, but with a high enough perception (versus gnolls, impossible for him to fail) and tracking, there haven't been any survivors. His max range increment is beyond the range of most maximum distances for perception checks, so even using the "lone gnoll watching on the mountaintop who sees the fight" doesn't quite jive when the monk's perception score quadruples the gnoll's. (And if he can see him, he can basically shoot him) Oh, to be sure after enough arrow riddled bodies get left behind, and someone's gonna take notice and tales will spread. As written, the AP doesn't give the gnolls lots of tech to deal with this, though with enough prayers to Rovagug, I suppose miracles that help cause others' destruction could happen.
Just a mechanical question here.
If you assume "lone gnoll on hilltop watching fight, while hidden under cover/concealment"
Let's call it a quarter mile distance. 400 yards. That's a -40 to the ranger's perception check (-1 per 10 ft distance), without even considering the gnoll's stealth check (let's give the gnoll the "take 10" on his stealth, with a -2 to the perception check as "unfavorable conditions" - gnoll under cover of rocks.). Also, since the ranger is in combat, he's probably distracted, increasing the DC by 5. This means that the ranger needs a 57 on his perception check to see the gnoll.
On the flipside, the perception DC for a battle is -10 (rules actually say "hear the sound of a battle", but it's probably similar to see an ongoing battle from a hilltop. Add 40 for distance. Give the gnoll a +2 circumstance bonus for actively observing under favorable conditions (high ground over open plain). The gnoll still needs a 28 to see the battle from a quarter mile away. Even if the gnoll takes a 10 on his perception, he's still 18 short. So he needs to be 180 feet closer to see the battle.
Move the gnoll up 180 ft.
The ranger now needs a 39 on his perception to see the gnoll, while the gnoll can take 10 and see the ranger. Assuming the gnoll keeps under cover and moves away slowly, he should be able to continue taking 10 on his stealth, and report back to his clan that the party has someone who is causing clan brothers to go to sleep, whilst another human dispatches them to the afterlife.
Once that information is known to one clan, I'd bet that in the interest of keeping out the invaders, they would spread word to all the other clans.
stuffs...
Wait you'll give me staggered instead of sleep?
Deal. Done. Give me. Staggered lasts longer since you can't wake up from it, and really knocks down what they can do -- damage doesn't even cause it to go away. Since it isn't sleep anymore fewer people have bonuses against it.
Sleep is... nothing. Staggered? Now that's a status effect I like.
I have been playing a witch since beta testing started - We are currently running through CotCT - with multiple opponents I am still only able to take one down per round (if I am lucky) and If I fail I cant target that creature again. There is a lot of other things for my character to be doing such as buffing, de buffing and healing. I have found that I use slumber when we want to sneak around without causing casualties. Even then its not a sure thing.
The most effective I have been is getting a large group of our enemies to surrender through use of the fly hex a cantrip and intimidate.
The difference between the Hex and Sleep/Deep Slumber is that the number of HD it can affect isn't capped. Sleep is capped at 4 HD, while Deep Slumber is capped at 10 HD.
Hold Person/Monster would still work the same way, but those are actual spell slots :)
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But can be cast at the same enemy multiple times, and quite frankly that limit is completely irrelevant unless the witch is actually in danger of running dry on spell slots. Which, very frequently, doesn't happen. Especially not if she bothers getting a staff.
The concept that unlimited uses per day somehow affects balance in meaningful ways has always been a mystery to me. If you can cast it five times, it usually may as well be unlimited.
Yes but with a DC of half the witches level, it basically scales to be as effective as their highest level spell, unlimited. How many spells does the witch get at their highest level at any time, probably only one or two, not five.
The unlimited part isn't the big deal as much as the total package. Unlimited, uninterruptible, scales so its still effective for taking out a BBEG at high level. Its an very good ability from like 5th lvl to 9th or so, not withstanding powerful combos like the one the OP listed with the battle oracle.
If your game stops somewhere in the low teens, you might not like the ability as stands. But if it continues, the witch has far more interesting and devastating standard actions to perform than slumber, so it becomes more of an "ace in the hole" rather than a "go to" ability.
Its one of the few really good things the witch does get at lower levels, it fits the class image, and it demands that the witch potentially put herself in harms way with a short casting range. From all my experiences so far GMing a witch, I think its fairly balanced, but I can also see where it be problematic in a campaign dominated by say giants and ogres, who are very susceptible to this spell. To this I say, let your witch shine, so far, in my game, the wizard and sorcerer both outgun and outspell the witch 99% of the time.
Balconies with ranged gnolls can prevent Coup de Grace. Or other areas that the terrian will not get to. or make traps that deal nonlethal damage to the gnoll when the npc moves next to ready to provoke an attack of oppurintunity. That might interupt it.
I'm not sure if this works, but it makes sense to me:
Although supernatural, the slumber hex is still a sight/sound based magical effect. This means that it can be countered by a bard's countersong or distraction performance. This doesn't really stop the ability, but can at least give the people involved a decent save.
The occasional gnoll war party with a level 5 gnoll warhowler should be possible, yes?
The sleep hex doesn't have that good of a range. My witch routinely had to worry about opponents with good ranged attacks.
Also, having played a witch in Runelords, I can tell you that the answer is increasing the number of opponents. Even if it doesn't add much to the CR, adding four low-level guards will disrupt charge lines and provide a solution.
I don't really see this happening:
"Geb, should we wake up the commander"
"No, he needs his rest. Let's fight the witch ourselves"
I have a player with a witch in my Kingmaker campaign. We are in book 4 and I have to agree with the statement that the Slumber Hex is overpowered.
With a DC of 22, not many enemies can make the save.
The "wake them" solution is ok - but now you've removed 2 from combat (1 sleeping and 1 having to wake him) and now the guy who slept has to gather his stuff and stand up (drawing and AoO and wasting another round) while the guy that just woke him gets sent to dreamland.
There are many ways to deal with it, but not all enemies (Hill Giants, animals, etc.) have the tactical minds to realize who the real threat is.
My plan is to rework the future battles to make sure that some of the major players have defense against it. And, I am thankful that my player with the witch is not a power gamer.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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This may have already been addressed, but your issue with the Sleep Hex may be a product of the 15 minute adventuring day.
If the Witch's Sleep Hex can only be done once per day, wouldn't it be prudent to have your party encounter the BBEG as the 2nd or 3rd encounter of the day? Chances are, the Sleep Hex would have been expended by then, forcing the PCs to try a different tactic.
Of course the Sleep Hex will seem overpowered if your party is constantly resting up after each combat. Adding some Wandering Monsters or grouping encounters in the AP so they occur one right after the other would force your PCs to think through the Sleep/Coup de Grace tactic a bit more.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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This may have already been addressed, but your issue with the Sleep Hex may be a product of the 15 minute adventuring day.
If the Witch's Sleep Hex can only be done once per day, wouldn't it be prudent to have your party encounter the BBEG as the 2nd or 3rd encounter of the day? Chances are, the Sleep Hex would have been expended by then, forcing the PCs to try a different tactic.
Of course the Sleep Hex will seem overpowered if your party is constantly resting up after each combat. Adding some Wandering Monsters or grouping encounters in the AP so they occur one right after the other would force your PCs to think through the Sleep/Coup de Grace tactic a bit more.
Slumber isn't once per day though, it's at will.
The 'once per day' thing is that once a creature has been hit by it (whether it saves or not), it can't be affected by Slumber again for 24 hours.
To be fair, we've actually been running the Sleep Hex as written for the last month since I last posted. It's definitely become less of an issue in terms of game balance as 7th and 8th level crept up. Sure, through the early levels (1-6), the Hex absolutely rocked, especially against the foes featured within the adventure path (and even more-so against a number of single-opponent encounters). Now, the basic math is making it a lot more dicey for the witch to pull off the Hex. The difference on most monster's Will saves versus the DC of the Hex has narrowed between the low levels and the mid-levels, especially in the case of outsiders and certain humanoids. The higher chance of the Hex outright not working and the short distance necessary to pull it off has made it a lot less attractive, especially when spells like Enervation and Confusion are more effective at debilitating enemies.
I had the wind blown out of my sails with this Hex. I thought it was up to the witch's HD they could sleep. I created a BBEG for this dungeon of gremlin's they were clearing out set in Kopparberget of the Lands of Linnorm area. It was an Alchemist Gremlin. I forget specific type of gremlin. Anyways, I had a decent sized room set up with traps and such. It was going to be a fun encounter to play out. Crazy bomb tossing gremlin. First round, i snared the ranger, poisoned the fighter, and made the cleric nervous. Second round the witch came out of hiding and Hexed the Gremlin to sleep. GAME OVER! Everyone was wow. That's it?!?! I was like yup. That's the BBEG. How anti-climatic?!?! I had a few other BBEG that went down the same. I was like okay, I just spent a few hours creating this encounter and Bam over in 5 minutes. Seriously?!! So, now I have to use creatures with Immunity to sleep, high will saves, or just tons of mobs harrassing the Witch. Not very fair for the Witch, but only way everyone else gets to play against a single opponent. It was pretty sad.
I totally even missed it was a SU ability. So, grappling, surrounded in combat, etc no AoOs either. Even if I had a ranged DPS with ready actions to interrupt.....Fail! Grr. I hate having to plan against the ability and to me it seems unfair for the PC. Luckily, she hasnt complained about it yet, but hopefully I can keep it balanced enough to let her and the rest of the party shine when needed. The fact she can't do it more than once in a day against an opponent is a huge saving grace.
1.Rule 0 has nothing to do with an ability being over powered.
2.DM's who change rules to make difficult for the players without explaining anything, quickly find themselves DM'ing their campaign world alone.
Never forget that its the player's world as much as it is the DM's. The game is a cooperative event. Houserules should be discussed with the group so that everyone is on the same page- before going into effect and before said effect happens in game.
(i.e. if the DM changes Slumber Hex he needs to either do so before the player takes it- and inform the player of such or discuss the problem when it becomes a problem and try to come to a good solution for it- whether it be modification or for the Witch to select a different hex).
here's what isnt' kosher:
Witch: I use Slumber hex at the hobgoblin
DM: It doesn't work.
Witch: but you didn't even make a save.
DM: Didn't need to. That hex doesn't work anymore.
Witch: err well, can I ue it on the..
DM: No, the hex doesn't work.
WItch: errr alright. can i change it out for Flight hex then?
DM: Nope, sorry. That hex just doesn't work.
Witch: -is in the car on the way home already-
-S
I had the wind blown out of my sails with this Hex. I thought it was up to the witch's HD they could sleep. I created a BBEG for this dungeon of gremlin's they were clearing out set in Kopparberget of the Lands of Linnorm area. It was an Alchemist Gremlin. I forget specific type of gremlin. Anyways, I had a decent sized room set up with traps and such. It was going to be a fun encounter to play out. Crazy bomb tossing gremlin. First round, i snared the ranger, poisoned the fighter, and made the cleric nervous. Second round the witch came out of hiding and Hexed the Gremlin to sleep. GAME OVER! Everyone was wow. That's it?!?! I was like yup. That's the BBEG. How anti-climatic?!?! I had a few other BBEG that went down the same. I was like okay, I just spent a few hours creating this encounter and Bam over in 5 minutes. Seriously?!! So, now I have to use creatures with Immunity to sleep, high will saves, or just tons of mobs harrassing the Witch. Not very fair for the Witch, but only way everyone else gets to play against a single opponent. It was pretty sad.
I totally even missed it was a SU ability. So, grappling, surrounded in combat, etc no AoOs either. Even if I had a ranged DPS with ready actions to interrupt.....Fail! Grr. I hate having to plan against the ability and to me it seems unfair for the PC. Luckily, she hasnt complained about it yet, but hopefully I can keep it balanced enough to let her and the rest of the party shine when needed. The fact she can't do it more than once in a day against an opponent is a huge saving grace.
Why didn't his minions try to wake him up?
The only reason Slumber isn't overpowered is because the witch's actual spell list is so narrow and cripplingly overspecialized on mind-affecting will negates offensive spells that from a purely optimizing standpoint, without Slumber you'd be a fool to not just play a wizard instead and call it a witch. Same basic chasis, MUCH better and wider spell selection, more spells per day (specialist), very powerful school-based class features...
I would be totally open to seeing it not nerfed but "rebalanced." Perhaps it dazes for round/level instead. Still takes stuff out of the fight, and works on more creatures in return for not being instant death. If that's too strong, let an adjacent creature slap the dazed one as a standard to grant it a new attempt at the will save.
The only reason Slumber isn't overpowered is because the witch's actual spell list is so narrow and cripplingly overspecialized on mind-affecting will negates offensive spells that from a purely optimizing standpoint, without Slumber you'd be a fool to not just play a wizard instead and call it a witch. Same basic chasis, MUCH better and wider spell selection, more spells per day (specialist), very powerful school-based class features...
I would be totally open to seeing it not nerfed but "rebalanced." Perhaps it dazes for round/level instead. Still takes stuff out of the fight, and works on more creatures in return for not being instant death. If that's too strong, let an adjacent creature slap the dazed one as a standard to grant it a new attempt at the will save.
Yup. +1
There are very strong options for hexes that make the Witch plenty useful even ignoring the spell list completely.
Misfortune is my staple. Use it all the time- and its not mind effecting. Works on anything that fails the save.
Evil Eye. it is mind effecting but still very nice.
Agony. (not mind effecting)
Retribution. (not mind effecting)
Heck unless it Is immune to mind effecting I rarely get around to using Retribution because I'm too busy using Misfortune and Evil Eye'ing all its combat abilities to mush. The spell list is just gravy or something to fall back on for a creature that is immune to mind effecting and you've already misfortuned, agonied and retributioned it.
(granted, agony and retri are both post 10th level)
Now I do admit not every person is for every clas.. but if the spell list of the witch is what you are using, you are neglecting your most powerful class ability.
-S
No...even with slumber and witch's weak spell list, the spells are still the most powerful class feature. They include all the will save or lose goodies the hexes do, and tons more utility stuff besides. There is no grand hex to create your own demiplane where time flows 2x as fast or as slow as normal (greater create demiplane).
Their other hexes (ie, without slumber) MIGHT be a bit stronger than the wizard's free feats + school bonuses. But not by nearly enough of a margin to make up for the spell list disparity. I guess Ice Tomb, which is in some ways even better than slumber but no one ever complains about it because it's level 10+ or something, is another big selling point. But by then you have enough spell slots to toss around save or lose spells at all the major threats as a wizard anyway.
It's also not instant death. Most enemies have minions that can wake them before the average party can get someone up to 30 feet away wait a full round to set up coup de grace and then execute it. Sure, there are ways to do it, but does your team have enough actions to do it in the same round and are your enemies stupid enough to not have backups like contingency spells and other things?
That's why you use teamwork to delay/ready to use it just before an ally's turn who's already within a 5 ft step of melee with said bad guy to use it (ditto for the sleep and Hold spells, and anything else that sets up a CDG but can be quickly negated). Requires patience and some coordination, but works much better. Best way for bad guy to protect against slumber CDGs is to have minions packed close enough that it's impossible to take a CDG w/o provoking AoOs. Which...just invites area spells. Ah, I love the tactical concept of combined arms. :)
Odraude wrote stuff.....
Most of my BBEGs tend to be +2 to +3 in levels above the party. No minions. My group enjoys beating down a single "named mob". They enjoy the teamwork aspect taking down a tougher foe.
Now, I use summoned foes to harry the witch when I'm using a single BBEG.
Odraude wrote stuff.....
Most of my BBEGs tend to be +2 to +3 in levels above the party. No minions. My group enjoys beating down a single "named mob". They enjoy the teamwork aspect taking down a tougher foe.
Now, I use summoned foes to harry the witch when I'm using a single BBEG.
Issue with running solos is that the PCs will always have more actions than a single boss. I rarely run a big solo unless he is a monster or magical beast that I can tool to give him an action economy advantage. Something like making the terrain unbearable to others but not him, or quills on it's back that damage melee users slightly whenever they attack. I actually find golems and oozes to be the best solos. An ooze golem would be... scary...
But, it's a sad truth you'll learn, especially at later levels of the game.
Playing my witch does make me feel that the witch spell list needs to be expanded to include some more combat impacting spells.
However, his hexes are pretty powerful too. Prehensile hair is actually his best attack and is pretty nice damage with reach and can trip.
I do think slumber is overpowered and deliberately avoided taking it for that reason.
The main thing I have learned in playing a witch is that, at least in my experience, initiative is critical. Witches simply have to go as early as possible to be effective.
To offset some of the spell limitations, I have been investing in Use Magic Device.
