In What Order Do AC Bonuses Apply?

[VikingIrishman]

I looked around and didn't find an answer, but in what order do AC bonuses apply? I was thinking it would be something like:

Dexterity Mod
Dodge Bonus
Shield Bonus
Deflection Bonus
Armor Bonus
Natural Armor

It's largely unimportant except that I have a player who constantly wants to know what it was that stopped the blow.

Any opinions? Or an official answer?

[Catharsis]

Whatever fits the drama best.

[Doodpants]

There is no "order". The bonuses just combine to give a single AC score which determines whether an attack successfully caused damage. If your player really wants to know what stopped the blow, your proposed ordering is as good as any.

[Lathiira]

There is no order for the application of AC bonuses. Once in a great while a special ability will mention that if an attack roll misses by so much something happens, but you apply them all at once. Your player can ask, and you can give him a different answer every single time if you like; it's all fluff.

[DigitalMage]

Not official, but...

If an attack would have hit your Touch AC, but not your total AC, then you got hit but your Armour or Shield stopped the blow (you could recalculate your AC without the Shield bonus to see if that made the difference).

It an attack wouldn't have even hit your Touch AC, then you dodged out of the way or a Deflection effect helped out (you could recalculate your Touch AC minus any Deflection bonus to see if that made the difference).

[Kthulhu]

Rather than bother to do the math constantly, I'd just give him an exciting description. Hell, don't even wait, next time an attack misses him, don't just tell him "The ogre misses." Tell him something like "As the sword slices just above your head, a small lock of your own hair falls in front of your face." or "Your shield buckles under the mightly blow of the dwarven warhammer, but luckily for you, it holds together."

[Gilfalas]

I am pretty positive that the 3.5 DMG had a listing of 'what gets hit in what order' somewhere that showed what stopped a blow in what order.

I thought that was transferred over to the PFRPG Core book but I am AFB right now.

I know the list your thinking of and your first post is on a similar track.

Check under damaging items or under failing saving throws on a natural 1 to start with.

[VikingIrishman]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I usually do describe something, but this player is such a rules lawyer that he HAS to have a codified system or he's unhappy.

@Gilfalas The Items Affected by Magical Attacks Table doesn't really feel right to me, especially because it includes SO many other items. As is, the only items that really contribute to AC on that table are Shields and Armor. But if you can recall roughly where in the book (either the 3.5 DMG or the PCR, I have both) that table was, I'd be greatly appreciative.

[DigitalMage]

VikingIrishman wrote:

Thanks for the replies, guys. I usually do describe something, but this player is such a rules lawyer that he HAS to have a codified system or he's unhappy.

Is he trying to use this as a basis for a rules interpretation then? If not, and he "just wants to know" then let him come up with the codified system - at least that way you know he will agree with the result :)

[VikingIrishman]

DigitalMage wrote:

Is he trying to use this as a basis for a rules interpretation then? If not, and he "just wants to know" then let him come up with the codified system - at least that way you know he will agree with the result :)

A fantastic idea that was far too simple for me to see! My thanks, Mage. ^_^

[Catharsis]

Next time he wants to make a 5' step, throw a random die and then say "you can't go in that direction, you have your weight on the other foot". Maybe he'll tone down his neurotic rule addiction after a while. ;)

[ElyasRavenwood]

Your hierarchy sounds like a good one
Insight bonus
Dex mod
Dodge bonus
Deflection bonus,
Shield bonus
Armor bonus
Natural armor bonus

Lets say we have a ranger. The ranger has a 14 dex, and has the dodge feat.
He is armed with a ring of protection +2, a Dark wood shield +2, a Mithril chain shirt +2, and amulet of Natural armor +2, and lets give him a made up magical item, a cloak of “prescience” which gives him a +2 insight bonus to ac.

His total ac would be: 28

(+2 insight, +2 dexterity bonus, +1 dodge bonus, +2 deflection, +3 shield, +6 armor, +2 natural armor)

Touch: 17

Flat footed: 26

Now if an opponent hit from ac 10 to ac 11, because of the insight bonus, the ranger would have known to stand a little to the right or left, so the blow misses him.

If an opponent hit ac 12 or 13, the ranger through his quick reflexes has reacted and moved out of the way.

If an opponent has hit ac 14, then the ranger has dodged the blow.

If an opponent has hit ac 15 to 16, then his blow was deflected by the magical protection offered by the ring of protection.

If an opponent hit ac 17 to 19, then the ranger blocked the blow with his shield.

If an opponent has hit ac 20-26 then the mithril chain shirt has diffused the blow

If an opponent has hit ac 27 or 28, then the amulet of natural armor has toughened the ranger’s skin so it can absorb the blow.

Hmm, my math may be wrong, but anyways, this might give you an idea of how a variety of bonuses might stack and layer to protect an individual from suffering from a damaging blow.

[VikingIrishman]

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

**Good Stuff**

BAh! I forgot about Insight bonuses! Hmm... and morale bonuses. Nonstandard bonus types make things tricky.

[cfalcon]

VikingIrishman wrote:

I looked around and didn't find an answer, but in what order do AC bonuses apply? I was thinking it would be something like:

Dexterity Mod
Dodge Bonus
Shield Bonus
Deflection Bonus
Armor Bonus
Natural Armor

It's largely unimportant except that I have a player who constantly wants to know what it was that stopped the blow.

Any opinions? Or an official answer?

Lets assume a creature with a natural armor of 1, some chain shirt +3, a shield +1, a Dexterity of 18, and a deflection bonus of 2 from a spell.

AC = 10+1+(4+3)+(2+1)+4+2 = 27

My opinion has always been:

-Fails to hit AC 10-> terrible shot, natural miss, trivial deflection, glancing blow.
-AC 10 -> Natural armor -> Natural armor is most intrinsic, being it's part of you, so something missing that would have hit AC 11 for this guy would be "he finds a chink in your armor, but not in your scales" (or whatever) or "it bounces off your hide"
-Normal armor -> Normal armor is the closest thing, normally the last line of defense for a knight in the real world- if you fail to dodge a blow or deflect it with your shield, you will hope that your armor will prevent it from wounding you mortally. A character missing the target that would have hit AC 12 -> 19 was deflected by the 7 points of AC. If it's a 17,18, or 19, then it would have found a way through normal armor, but not this armor, because it has an enhancement bonus. So for 12 to 16, it's "it bounces off your armor", "you are bounced by a solid blow to your chest that dents your armor but it holds" or "your chain links prevent the attack". For 17 to 19 I would give a similar description but imply that it SHOULD have gone through, but did not.
-Shield -> If you cannot dodge a blow completely, you will try to deflect it with your shield. This space is smaller than it would be in the real world, but even if I'm ignoring the rest of it I very much try to describe the shield hits, mostly because a PC gives up a lot for a shield so they should know when it helps them (if possible). So for 20 to 23 I would have the shield deflect, trivialize, knock away the blow. Make sure to have the player actually be active in these descriptions: you should make it clear that he lunged forward and stopped the attack before it started, and then dodged the spittle from the enraged enemy. For the top two (22 and 23) I would try to emphasize that the shield helped interpose itself or struck his weapon as he tried to wield it with great speed, as these represent the enhancement bonus portion of the shield.
-Dodge (all sources) -> The *first* line of defense for a mundane man, you would try to simply not be where he is. This normally trivializes the attack and makes the enemy looks foolish, unwise, outwitted, or outplayed in some fashion. If you don't want the attack to sound retarded, consider "he chases you with his blade, but you are nimble, and the blow was not telling".
-Deflection (magic) -> This would happen before having to dodge- this is like a magical force field that reduces the force of the blow. Try to incorporate the power source from this. "The blow slows as he is frustrated by your warding, you easily deflect it", "His blow stops mid air", "The shot is true, but it glances away", "The air wraps round his greatsword, locking it for the briefest of moments but rendering the attack useless".

If your player always wants to know, then write down the AC ranges and which one each equals a stop on. This can slow down play, of course.

Again, just my suggestions.

PS: I would apply insight and morale bonuses between deflection and dodge- basically between "you aren't there when the blow hits" and "some other force misdirects the blow".

[NotMousse]

Don't forget the luck bonus to AC!

The arrow turned into cotton candy at the last second, giving you a fluffy treat!

Seriously though, the most complicated you would probably want to get is if it missed completely (failed to hit touch AC) or if you absorbed/deflected the blow (under your normal AC, but high enough to touch).

Also, if memory serves some AC bonuses apply to both touch and flat-footed ACs.

[ElyasRavenwood]

glad i could be of some help,

as what mot people said it comes down to flavor. there is a bit of a misnomer, when someone says you miss or you hit. the hit's simply mean you have landed a blow that has injured your opponent.
the miss could mean anything from an outright miss, to a blow that has been deflected diverted blocked etc.

good luck

[caith]

Sometimes, you gotta know when to say no =)

[Richard Leonhart]

My counter-question would, does it have an order?

If you always miss by 1, does he always avoid the attack in the same manner? I doubt it.

My suggestion is, if your players like to hear how they avoided damage, just tell them the first thing you can think of that fits the situation. Try to have a rich vocabulary and many ideas :)

[Louis IX]

Furthering the discussion...

...does a blow that hits your Touch AC but misses your normal AC damages the armor/shield?
You have +2 from Dex, +4 from armor, +2 from shield. The opponent attacks and it's ruled that he hit the shield. Does he apply damage to the shield?
Would arrows missing due to a wooden shield imbed themselves in said shield? (seen 300 already?)

...would all attacks be rolled with damage to have insight on the drama terms to use?
Like the "mighty blow" above... if that was 3 damage, it wasn't that mighty to begin with.
That's also to give players a measure of the opponent's threat before they get really hit:
"Oh my! These really are mighty blows! I might die if I get hit! I was lucky earlier but I should put myself in defensive position from now on..."

House-rules are a good thing.

[Kthulhu]

If he's that much of a rules-a-holic, next time he asks, just say "You're right! He hit you, take X damage."

[Aris Kosmopoulos]

A similar issue was I think it the 3.5 or 3 edition regarding firing someone that had cover from another character. If you missed because of the cover bonus, then you had to find out if the character that provided the cover was being hit. If he his AC was greater than the attack then you had to find out if he evaded because of his dexterity/dodge. If he did then he actually did not provided cover at all.

I know this is a super ridiculous-complicated rule and I think that it doesn't appear in the books any more. I just mention it in order to support that at some point in the past in 3-3.5 there was the idea of what bonus at your AC actually saved you from being hit. So this is not something never heard before in DND that sounds so bizarre. But I agree that it is to much complication for nothing.

[DigitalMage]

VikingIrishman wrote:

DigitalMage wrote:

Is he trying to use this as a basis for a rules interpretation then? If not, and he "just wants to know" then let him come up with the codified system - at least that way you know he will agree with the result :)

A fantastic idea that was far too simple for me to see! My thanks, Mage. ^_^

No problem, my only concern was whether he would then use any ruling you made to justify some other rules; e.g. "well if my flaming sword did actually hit, and only didn't do damage because of his armour, surely the flames should ignite the oil I threw at him last round" (which isn't actually a bad call, throw oil at a foe and then attack with a flaming sword, if it misses AC but beats Touch AC then it should theoretically ignite the oil).

So you may want to ask him why he wants to know - and state if his answer is "just because" then you reserve the right to change the codification at any time.

[Zerombr]

don't forget sacred bonus to AC. I had a paladin, who had an ancestral relic, that I bought a +5 sacred AC bonus to her mantle. That and luck are both hard to get.

[Some call me Tim]

Oh and don't forget size modifier. Which could be a bonus or peanlty to AC. So, how do you deal with penalities?

"You would have missed him, but he is so clumsy he impailed himself on your sword." "He is so big and fat that you couldn't miss."

I don't think anyone mentioned cover either. When I DM I keep track of things like spells and cover, so I can tell the the player they missed because the opponent was hiding behind something or had a magical bonus. That's because they can actually do something about it, either move to negate cover or cast dispel magic or so forth.

So, there are some instances where telling the player might cause a change in tactics, but generally it is just flavor.

[cfalcon]

It's not ridiculous. It's certainly more complicated than the system requires. It's a technique to codify a narrative such that what you spit out as flavor text is affected directly by the AC numbers in question, and therefore, player choice. Getting a shield bonus to AC is almost always the result of player choice- either by spending an action in combat for a spell, or selecting a shield versus the superior damage of the other options. I like it when I can point to a section on the AC table and say, shield stopped it, and the player knows I'm not just "making it up".

But no, you certainly don't need to do this.

[Brogue The Rogue]

I actually asked this question a while back on the Wizards previous editions forum. I also could have sworn I saw it listed somewhere what the order was (the fact that many people think they saw the same tells me it's likely it was listed somewhere), but it seems to not be official. Here's the link if you're interested.

[cfalcon]

I doubt it's official. That link is a great resource though, thank you.