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So I recently rolled out a new Cavalier for our groups campaign in the Council of Thieves setting, and quickly encountered a problem. I have a generous DM, who, in his benevolence has granted me a frilled lizard as a mount. I'm using this to my advantage, and climbing onto walls and even the ceiling. The problem I'm encountering is as such; The blood is rushing to my head and causing me to have to make fort saves every round to avoid being sickened.
"I started the fort saves after 1 round at 10 and increasing the DC by 2 each round thereafter. If you stay that that state I am going to make you make another fort save at DC 20 or you go unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds (or until you are healed appropriately)." ~ the DM
What I'm looking for is a wondrous item that would be caster level 5 or lower that I can use say, 3 times per day, to avoid having this happen.
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Hi all!
The big ol' nasty DM here. Chipping in as this is something of a call for help from me as well. So here is a little background.
The PC in question has been given a significantly altered Monitor Lizard companion that would reasonably act as a mount. Regardless this isn't the crux of the issue. Whenever he goes upside down I am making him check for blood-rush and failed checks mean bad things of course.
We are looking a way to help with this, even if it is only a few times a day. I see wondrous items as a great way to get something that would help with this as he doesn't have any spell-casting ability and as we all know wondrous items are based around bending specific spells and using them in often creative ways to achieve specific effect.
So here we are, looking for a 5th level spell slot (Arcane or otherwise) or lower that could reasonably be used to make a (likely unique) wondrous item that could help with this.
Any ideas?
Not off the top of my head (no pun intended) no.
A question though. Why impose the penalty? Is it to keep some sort of "balance" with the others players characters.
Here is something on my mind reading this, which happened in Second Darkness, so be warned;
Do you have access to the APG? (Forgot to look at your "tags" to see what you might and might not subscribe to). There might be something in there.
Either a new spell (that could be used in the making of a "unique" magic item), or a new magic item, designed just for this purpose.
I hope upon reading my spoiler, that I didn't ruin anything for either of you.
I imagine that a wondrous item that grants a variation of Spider climb would do the trick. Rather than grant the primary ability of the spell (to climb walls), the wondrous item instead grants the implicit secondary ability (to not get sick from hanging upside down from the ceiling).
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Suggestions include make a ride check. Or a earned feat. I wouldnt go with a magic item. Because he may need that slot later for a more important item.
When I give an item or mount in this case my group has a house rule that either you can have a feat or a skill. If he wants to go on to ride other exotic mounts I would give him a unique skill or alter the ride skill to say that if you can roll a blank or better you dont get sick. Other wise modify a feat like Iron stomach, You dont get sick from riding. Or better yet roll acrobat skill... they have a habit of hanging upside down.
Sorry for the lack of spelling Im doing this on the fly.
FYI most Drow based games threw penalities at the PCs Im not sure about Second Darkness but other d20 products did.
Just wondering, does your cavalier need to make Ride checks per round to stay in the saddle when on the ceiling, does he have an exotic saddle that straps him in, or are you utilising some other means to keep the cavalier from experiencing -9.8 metres per second squared?
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Just wondering, does your cavalier need to make Ride checks per round to stay in the saddle when on the ceiling, does he have an exotic saddle that straps him in, or are you utilising some other means to keep the cavalier from experiencing -9.8 metres per second squared?
A form of military saddle, I have to strap myself in to avoid falling out when upside down.
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I tend to agree with Sasha Greymantle.
If however you need to make it a magic item, perhaps an alteration of the spell "Endure Elements". This spell enables someone to exist comfortably in pretty extreme conditions, so perhaps with tweaking, could also endure some pretty extreme forces (including gravity). Perhaps combined with freedom of movement or something. I'd make it a belt?
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Just wondering, does your cavalier need to make Ride checks per round to stay in the saddle when on the ceiling, does he have an exotic saddle that straps him in, or are you utilising some other means to keep the cavalier from experiencing -9.8 metres per second squared?
I more/less gave him an exotic military riding saddle to start off with. The character actually ended up starting at level 3 due to the previous character being whisked away to other business. Both the Caviler and the Lizard were to be sold on the slave/exotic mount market and as such the Lizard was in the presence of such equipment.
The reason I don't want to make it a Feat is simply that the Cavilier is already under a HEAVY feat tax from the fact that they focus quite heavily on mounted combat and they get no feats from the class itself to back that function up.
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I tend to agree with Sasha Greymantle.
If however you need to make it a magic item, perhaps an alteration of the spell "Endure Elements". This spell enables someone to exist comfortably in pretty extreme conditions, so perhaps with tweaking, could also endure some pretty extreme forces (including gravity). Perhaps combined with freedom of movement or something. I'd make it a belt?
This seems like it could work. I am however working with a very limited source of funds in game and obviously am trying to get this figured out in the cheapest way possible.
I would re-consider the actual penalty. I understand it might be for balance reasons – but even in our world you can easily be upside down for a length of time without risks (unless your blood pressure is out of whack), especially if you train your body for it – like I would expect this character is doing. Personally I stand on my head, admittedly under somewhat more relaxed surroundings, for three minutes every day and I have yet to pass out or really feel uncomfortable doing so.
It seems a bit excessive to make strong heroes who can easily shrug off a mace hit or two risk passing out if they are upside down for six seconds. Perhaps the delay before taking saves could be increased?
I would be more concerned with staying in the saddle and avoiding things dropping off and that attack rolls might be somewhat unfavourable (at least until one has practiced/mastered the position). Remember picking a potion or other item from you bag is a significantly more complicated process upside down.
For items, the already mentioned slippers of spider climb does make a bit of sense though – as they specifically suggest a use of standing upside down in caverns. One could easily imagine they have an added enchantment of making the character (relatively) comfortable in doing so. And the slot they occupy is not _that_ important for it to be a nurf to the character.
Alternatively, if you wish to utilize a magic item based on an altered endure elements spell, it would only cost 400 gp by my estimates (Continuous: (2000 gp x spell level 1) modified by number of charges: (divided by 5). The spell only has one charge per day, but since it is a 24 hour spell, it is effectively continuous at a fraction of the cost).
I would re-consider the actual penalty. I understand it might be for balance reasons – but even in our world you can easily be upside down for a length of time without risks (unless your blood pressure is out of whack), especially if you train your body for it – like I would expect this character is doing. Personally I stand on my head, admittedly under somewhat more relaxed surroundings, for three minutes every day and I have yet to pass out or really feel uncomfortable doing so.
It seems a bit excessive to make strong heroes who can easily shrug off a mace hit or two risk passing out if they are upside down for six seconds. Perhaps the delay before taking saves could be increased?
This.
No one is going to pass out from a few seconds upside down, and he could do it in the first round with a roll of 1.
If you need a penalty make a penalty to attacks and ride checks due to disorientation.
Enchant the saddle with a home brew enchantment that regulates the blood flow through your body. Or creates a very small anti-gravity field. Or something else.
Enchant the saddle.
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Alternatively, if you wish to utilize a magic item based on an altered endure elements spell, it would only cost 400 gp by my estimates (Continuous: (2000 gp x spell level 1) modified by number of charges: (divided by 5). The spell only has one charge per day, but since it is a 24 hour spell, it is effectively continuous at a fraction of the cost).
I think I am going with something along these lines.
Modified from Know Direction & Endure Elements, meaning it would primarily be crafted by druids or other particularly motivated individuals.
Cardinal Saddle
Aura faint abjuration & divination; CL 1st
Slot Waist; Price 3500 gp; Weight 30 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This simple wooden and leather military saddle is incredibly comfortable and leaves the rider none the worse for wear after countless hours of use. It doesn't appear to have any visible strapping but magically sticks to and conforms to any creature suitable to be used as a mount. When used the rider feels no ill effects from environmental effects from heat or cold. In addition the rider can remain comfortably seated at any angle, be it sideways or even upside down. This does not prevent the rider from being dismounted by non gravitational effects.
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, endure elements, know direction; Cost 1,750 gp
Does this sound fair?
Cloak of the Bat
Fashioned of dark brown or black cloth, this cloak bestows a +5 competence bonus on Hide checks. The wearer is also able to hang upside down from the ceiling, like a bat.
By holding the edges of the garment, the wearer is able to fly as per the spell. If he desires, the wearer can actually polymorph himself into an ordinary bat and fly accordingly. (All possessions worn or carried are part of the transformation.) Flying, either with the cloak or in bat form, can be accomplished only in darkness (either under the night sky or in a lightless or near-lightless environment underground). Either of the flying powers is usable for up to 7 minutes at a time, but after a flight of any duration the cloak cannot bestow any flying power for a like period of time.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, fly, polymorph; Price 26,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Reverse engineer the frills out of this and leave the wearer can hang upside down part :)
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I would re-consider the actual penalty. I understand it might be for balance reasons – but even in our world you can easily be upside down for a length of time without risks (unless your blood pressure is out of whack), especially if you train your body for it – like I would expect this character is doing. Personally I stand on my head, admittedly under somewhat more relaxed surroundings, for three minutes every day and I have yet to pass out or really feel uncomfortable doing so.
It seems a bit excessive to make strong heroes who can easily shrug off a mace hit or two risk passing out if they are upside down for six seconds. Perhaps the delay before taking saves could be increased?
This.
No one is going to pass out from a few seconds upside down, and he could do it in the first round with a roll of 1.
If you need a penalty make a penalty to attacks and ride checks due to disorientation.
I love the way several people have mentioned that there really shouldn't be a penalty until a good amount of time is spent upside down and the DM here is absolutely steadfast in keeping the blinders on and ignoring those posts.
I used to hang upside down for intervals of 3-5 minutes regularly(in my teens and twenties) and performed fairly strenuous activities in said positions and I also think "make a save every round" or "get custom magic" is too much. I would rule that a PC can hang upside down for Constitution modifier X10 rounds before suffering any ill effects. After that the effects would be negatives to attacks and such. Sounds like someone with very little experience or tolerance for being inverted is designing rules about it that don't hold true under real world ideals."I can't jump in the water without holding my nose so if your PC jumps in without a free hand to hold his nose he immediately starts drowning...." is the same sort of thing....and Ridiculous.
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I love the way several people have mentioned that there really shouldn't be a penalty until a good amount of time is spent upside down and the DM here is absolutely steadfast in keeping the blinders on and ignoring those posts.
I used to hang upside down for intervals of 3-5 minutes regularly(in my teens and twenties) and performed fairly strenuous activities in said positions and I also think "make a save every round" or "get custom magic" is too much. I would rule that a PC can hang upside down for Constitution modifier X10 rounds before suffering any ill effects. After that the effects would be negatives to attacks and such. Sounds like someone with very little experience or tolerance for being inverted is designing rules about it that don't hold true under real world ideals.
"I can't jump in the water without holding my nose so if your PC jumps in without a free hand to hold his nose he immediately starts drowning...." is the same sort of thing....and Ridiculous.
Hello pot! What's that? I'm black you say?
Yes I ignored those suggestions because they did nothing to answer the question that was asked. It has already been established that fighting upside down is not going to be an automatic success, and therefore I came up with an extraction to represent this. We play something of a more "realistic" game than I imagine you must because of your response. I am sorry but PC's aren't gods that automatically succeed at everything they do, esp in a world where your average housewife or homeless man is a level 2 character.I consider a DC 10 starting on the second round pretty generous and pitifully easy to make (The same DC required to swim in calm water, identify a cat, or jam a lock) especially since the character has no prior experience in doing such a thing. I'd also like to point out that hanging upside down from a pole is very different than being strapped to a moving attacking creature and attempting to hold yourself in a position that is conductive to combat, and following through with such a thing.
I don't know about you but I would consider something like that pretty challenging to say the least. At least as challenging as fighting while prone or shaken if not more so.
I should note that giving a -2 circumstance modifier to anything is well within the rules, I could very well have simply implemented that instead of working with my player to crank out an agreeable solution.
Your post is non-constructive and also bordering on rude... I would tone it down a little bit.
Here is the bit about riding lizards up walls and across ceilings from Second Darkness book 4.
the PCs and the drow clashing up the walls or even along
the ceiling of the cave. This may shock the PCs, but among
the drow riding cave geckos along walls or ceilings is
nothing new—the cave geckos are excellent climbers, and
the harnesses and saddles they are outfitted with strap
tight to the rider to prevent him from falling. Nevertheless,
it’s a DC 14 Ride check to be able to do anything but hang
on for dear life while a cave gecko mount is moving along
a vertical wall or a ceiling.
I would re-consider the actual penalty. I understand it might be for balance reasons – but even in our world you can easily be upside down for a length of time without risks (unless your blood pressure is out of whack), especially if you train your body for it – like I would expect this character is doing. Personally I stand on my head, admittedly under somewhat more relaxed surroundings, for three minutes every day and I have yet to pass out or really feel uncomfortable doing so.
It seems a bit excessive to make strong heroes who can easily shrug off a mace hit or two risk passing out if they are upside down for six seconds. Perhaps the delay before taking saves could be increased?
This.
No one is going to pass out from a few seconds upside down, and he could do it in the first round with a roll of 1.
If you need a penalty make a penalty to attacks and ride checks due to disorientation.
Agreed, ride and attack penalty's seem a great fit.
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Hi Carbon - I think what people are trying to point out (more or less tactfully, depending) is that the penalty is not befitting the crime. A -2 circumstance bonus to attacks made while upside-down is very reasonable, while potentially passing out after 3-4 rounds with a bad roll is... well, it sucks to be unconcious during combat, is all people are trying to say.
I can only speak for myself when I tell you that anything that I could ride that had even a small chance - however remote - of knocking me unconcious in the middle of combat would not be a mount that I would get on, EVER.
To each his own, though, if you think it's fair, who am I to say otherwise. I think the enchanted saddle you wrote up would be fine.
I would treat it like drowning, let him stay upside down for a number of rounds equal to his CON score before making FORT saves. Make it so he starts gaining fatigue after that, so he can actually save himself if he starts to fail.
When he's not in combat, it would be easy to tuck/strap himself up into the saddle in a horizontal position (call it a move action to release), to have his torso be parallel with the ground, preventing the blood rush.
Spider Climb I guess, though nothing in Spider climb says you don't suffer adverse affects of being upside down, I would actually start imposing penalties on spider climb as well.
These are the spells I think would help
Free Action & Reverse Gravity
Say having a Ring of free action grants the normal free action bonuses
AND alleviates inversion.
My 2 cents...
=D
EDIT!!
Oh Remove Fatigue!!! Light headedness is effectively fatigue...so yeah, that spell would work as well.
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Hi Carbon - I think what people are trying to point out (more or less tactfully, depending) is that the penalty is not befitting the crime. A -2 circumstance bonus to attacks made while upside-down is very reasonable, while potentially passing out after 3-4 rounds with a bad roll is... well, it sucks to be unconcious during combat, is all people are trying to say.
I can only speak for myself when I tell you that anything that I could ride that had even a small chance - however remote - of knocking me unconscious in the middle of combat would not be a mount that I would get on, EVER.
To each his own, though, if you think it's fair, who am I to say otherwise. I think the enchanted saddle you wrote up would be fine.
Yeah after reviewing things I think I am going to simply adopt and tweak the drowning rules, they are actually VERY close to what I started with.
Any character may remain inverted for a number of rounds equal to her constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Fort save every round in order to continue holding in this state. Each round, the DC increases by 1. When the character finally fails the check, she falls unconscious (0 hp). While upside down a character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks.Does this sound better?
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Yeah after reviewing things I think I am going to simply adopt and tweak the drowning rules, they are actually VERY close to what I started with.
Any character may remain inverted for a number of rounds equal to her constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Fort save every round in order to continue holding in this state. Each round, the DC increases by 1. When the character finally fails the check, she falls unconscious (0 hp). While upside down a character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks.Does this sound better?
If you're asking me, I think that's much better, yes.
Does this sound better?
Much, well done.
Yes, much more fitting IMO.
Personally, I would allow a feat to eliminate the disorientation penalty to attack, the idea being that with practice he's going to get better at fighting upside down. Maybe even let the feat extend the time inverted by giving an effective +4 to con for purposes of staying conscious inverted.
Either way, where you're at is a lot better both for the player's enjoyment and for verisimilitude.
...Maybe even let the feat extend the time inverted by giving an effective +4 to con for purposes of staying conscious inverted.
I think Endurance would be perfect for this.
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Wait...people stand on their heads all of the time. People used to wear gravity boots. You should never fall unconscious from being upside down for less than several minutes.
Yes but they don't stand on their heads in full plate and they don't fight for their lives upside down either usually. I think its a fair trade for the GM to offer a slight penalty in exchange for allowing the cavalier to basically be able to charge in almost ANY environment.
My suggestions would be that you allow an item that offered spider climb to magically take this efect into account, since I assume the spell does, as it does not speak of its recipient suffering these effects. Alternatively, you could just say that the mount (who obviously is used to the blood situation) and rider bond negates the effect at a certain level. This limits the penalty to just a few levels rather than always, and still makes your point, which is that its an exotic riding style.
I would have a ride check every round to see if the player can actually do anything, but I would only have a fortitude vs sickness if once a minute and only after the a time of minutes equal to the player's Constitution bonus.
EDIT: Also I love your saddle Carbon, I shall be stealing it. :3
Here is the bit about riding lizards up walls and across ceilings from Second Darkness book 4.
** spoiler omitted **
Good Job Joana... that's what I was trying to recall from memory, but without the "issue" in front of me, all I could do was mention its existence.
I see someone else appreciated your efforts as well. ;)
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Yeah after reviewing things I think I am going to simply adopt and tweak the drowning rules, they are actually VERY close to what I started with.
Any character may remain inverted for a number of rounds equal to her constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Fort save every round in order to continue holding in this state. Each round, the DC increases by 1. When the character finally fails the check, she falls unconscious (0 hp). While upside down a character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks.Does this sound better?
The only thing I would change is to make it d3 rounds until unconsciousness after failing a save. That way, at least the Cavalier will have a round or three to get right side up again.