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A discussion has been sparked in my group and I would like some outside input.
We're discussing what creatures should and shouldn't be immune to our rogue's sneak attack in PF. We are aware of the one's who are automatically immune, but there are two creatures that are sorta confusing.
The first is the Will-o-wisp, It's basically a spongy ball, with no appendages or thin spots, yet it isn't immune to sneak attacks? I realize that it has a discernable body, but where is its vital/weak spot?
Next is pretty much any plant type creature that is described as a tangled mass of vines, like Shambling Mound or Assassin vine. Would this not work like a swarm?
All help is appreciated! :)
I believe the decision was to simplify some aspects of the game, and this was one of the areas we see it.
Also remember that a sneak attack isn't necessarily one blow. It is better described as one or more hits, delivered why the target is otherwise distracted.
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Vital points on a plant: it's roots.
Vital points on the Will-o'-wisp: it's jaw bone or eye sockets.The Will-o'-wisp is functionally immune to sneak attacks, what with it being invisible all the time and all.
FTFY
Yeah, i'd say it's easy enough to rule that certain creatures are immune, but make it so that the character who has sneak attack (or critical training) can recognize this when they see the opponent ("Where are the weak spots, dammit!").
It should be noted that sneak attack immunity is only granted in two situations: made of one completely homogeneous material or made of a bunch of independently acting bits. Since the shambling mound is *not* a swarm, nor is it completely homogeneous, there must be something central to it to command it as one entity, which could then be attacked for massive damage.
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Vital points on a plant: it's roots.
Vital points on the Will-o'-wisp: it's jaw bone or eye sockets.The Will-o'-wisp is functionally immune to crits, what with it being invisible all the time and all.
Roots, I get, but a will-o-wisp only appears as a skull, but exists as a spongy mass according to it's description. And if a player uses Purge Invisibility, then it's no longer invisible, or is it? That's another debate in my group!
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Vital points on a plant: it's roots.
Vital points on the Will-o'-wisp: it's jaw bone or eye sockets.The Will-o'-wisp is functionally immune to sneak attacks, what with it being invisible all the time and all.
FTFY
Yeah, i'd say it's easy enough to rule that certain creatures are immune, but make it so that the character who has sneak attack (or critical training) can recognize this when they see the opponent ("Where are the weak spots, dammit!").
It should be noted that sneak attack immunity is only granted in two situations: made of one completely homogeneous material or made of a bunch of independently acting bits. Since the shambling mound is *not* a swarm, nor is it completely homogeneous, there must be something central to it to command it as one entity, which could then be attacked for massive damage.
Thank you! Is there a source for those two situations? WoWs are the only thing that I can find that can be sneak attacked, but probably shouldn't be possible.
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Thank you! Is there a source for those two situations? WoWs are the only thing that I can find that can be sneak attacked, but probably shouldn't be possible.Vital points on a plant: it's roots.
Vital points on the Will-o'-wisp: it's jaw bone or eye sockets.The Will-o'-wisp is functionally immune to sneak attacks, what with it being invisible all the time and all.
FTFY
Yeah, i'd say it's easy enough to rule that certain creatures are immune, but make it so that the character who has sneak attack (or critical training) can recognize this when they see the opponent ("Where are the weak spots, dammit!").
It should be noted that sneak attack immunity is only granted in two situations: made of one completely homogeneous material or made of a bunch of independently acting bits. Since the shambling mound is *not* a swarm, nor is it completely homogeneous, there must be something central to it to command it as one entity, which could then be attacked for massive damage.
The only circumstantial immunity to sneak attacks one can have is if they have concealment relative to their attacker. Invisibility counts (as long as that opponent can't see through it). Critical hits do not have this specifier (compare the Sneak Attack feature to the Critical Hits section in core). This is the only time (that I know of) that sneak attack and critical hit immunity are *not* coupled.
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So let's assume the WoW is now glowing and totally visible. My rogue is flanking and wants to do a sneak attack. Since the physical thing he is hitting is a globe of spongy material (I'm assuming homogeneous), can he do sneak damage to it? Can it be hit critically? It's an aberration, but it also doesn't seem to have a weak point. If it's can't, can you point me to some sort of ruling on this kind of thing.
Yes you can sneak attack a will'o'wisp you can see and are flanking barring special circumstances (such as the will'o'wisp in question having improved uncanny dodge for some reason). Please note there is a feat in the APG that lets you sneak attack someone with concealment (iirc).
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So let's assume the WoW is now glowing and totally visible. My rogue is flanking and wants to do a sneak attack. Since the physical thing he is hitting is a globe of spongy material (I'm assuming homogeneous), can he do sneak damage to it? Can it be hit critically? It's an aberration, but it also doesn't seem to have a weak point. If it's can't, can you point me to some sort of ruling on this kind of thing.
Spongy != Homogeneous. Spongy is a description of a solid surface that "gives" but bounces back like a sponge does. This does not preclude the possibility of underlying organs, which aberrations have (being just "really weird" living creatures).
But yes, if the WoW was glowing/other-clearly-visible then the rogue can sneak attack them under any condition that they would normally be able to do so (such as flanking). It can also be critically hit, for the same reasons (though it doesn't need to be visible to be vulnerable).
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So let's assume the WoW is now glowing and totally visible. My rogue is flanking and wants to do a sneak attack. Since the physical thing he is hitting is a globe of spongy material (I'm assuming homogeneous), can he do sneak damage to it? Can it be hit critically? It's an aberration, but it also doesn't seem to have a weak point. If it's can't, can you point me to some sort of ruling on this kind of thing.Spongy != Homogeneous. Spongy is a description of a solid surface that "gives" but bounces back like a sponge does. This does not preclude the possibility of underlying organs, which aberrations have (being just "really weird" living creatures).
But yes, if the WoW was glowing/other-clearly-visible then the rogue can sneak attack them under any condition that they would normally be able to do so (such as flanking). It can also be critically hit, for the same reasons (though it doesn't need to be visible to be vulnerable).
Ok, great! Thanks everyone for the help! :)
Great, now i want to stab Spongebob Squarepants in the eye.
This is why the ability's name was changed from "backstab" to "sneak attack."
For most non-humanoid monsters, it's easy to come up with a rational (if sometimes unpersuasive) argument as to why a sneak attack isn't feasible. Because of this, it's wise to let mechanical uniformity trump realism, lest risking some stupid arguments.
Besides, it's not merely exploiting weakness. It is exploiting surprise. The Wisp or Shambler is unprepared to take a hit from the direction it's taking a hit from.
Narratively speaking, it can be treated as an opportunity for players to exercise creativity; failing that, it's always okay to assume there's a small exhaust port, right below the main port.