RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The base Perception check to see someone is 0. The Perception to hear someone walking is 10. So the invisibility should give the rogue a +10 in Pathfinder, since the guard is using a weaker sense.
Perception encompasses all 5 senses, so there's a chance that the guard might be able to smell the rogue in Pathfinder.
How the guard senses the rogue is completely up to the GM. Its really all flavor if he hears him or sees him. Perception has a lot of misc. modifiers, so feel free to add whatever ones you want for things like silence. Being invisible is a +20 to the stealth check if sight is being used. Silence doesn't list a modifier, but something similar is not out of line.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Question set A- Is that correct, that the guard and rogue must only roll once? How do I determine whether the guard sees or hears the rogue, or is it both?
You roll once and it represents both abilities. If you loose the opposed roll then the guard perceives you. If the situation merits both hearing and seeing then the DM can say whether or not its both, but the default in that case should be.
According to the Pathfinder RPG:
Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present.
So, if the guard fails to hear the rogue, and the rogue moves out closer and could be seen, the guard might well get a new roll.
Invisibility is +20, absolute silence at +10 sounds like a good house rule. I think you are going to have to house rule this one.
Its probably a good trade off. Four rolls from everyone to sneak down a coordinator got a bit monotonous
No. There is still a chance to DETECT the invisible rogue.. in both 3.5 and Pathfinder.
Fixed that for you.
Unless you have see invisibility, true seeing, or something similar, it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to see an invisible thing. Not being able to SEE it is the very definition of invisibility. Detecting an invisible creature, on the other hand (through another sense, by noticing footprints, etc.) IS absolutely possible.
My biggest problem with Pathfinder skills was always the Stealth skill. That was something they should've kept separate as Hide and Move Silently. Because I encounter the same exact problems with it.
My largest one --- Invisibility.
How the hell does Invisibility grant a +20 bonus to Stealth for not being seen AND HEARD?! Does invisibility muffle sound as well?
My biggest problem with Pathfinder skills was always the Stealth skill. That was something they should've kept separate as Hide and Move Silently. Because I encounter the same exact problems with it.
I'm sure this was considered, but it was resulting in too many die rolls and comparisons.
It helps you not be noticed by sound because sound is not a primary sense for most things, especially humans. If you hear the scuffle of foot steps behind you, you look and there's nothing there, chances are pretty good you're going to pass it off as an echo or a strange sound or a harmless rat. We get these kind of false positives a thousand times a day in real life.
I suggest you read the rules regarding invisibility.
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I think the merging of the Spot / Listen and Hide / Move Silently skills is one of the things Pathfinder does right (and I am someone who prefers 3.5 over PF).
In the instance of the Silence Spell I wouldn't necessarily provide a bonus, instead I would simply not ask the player to roll stealth until his character was potentially in the line of sight of the guard. So if the charcter is crawling along behind the other side of a low wall - no test.
If the guard is generally standing with his back to the character when he breaks cover I would even potentially not call for a stealth roll then, as there is no chance of the guard turning in response to a sound.
I think the merging of the Spot / Listen and Hide / Move Silently skills is one of the things Pathfinder does right (and I am someone who prefers 3.5 over PF).
In the instance of the Silence Spell I wouldn't necessarily provide a bonus, instead I would simply not ask the player to roll stealth until his character was potentially in the line of sight of the guard. So if the charcter is crawling along behind the other side of a low wall - no test.
If the guard is generally standing with his back to the character when he breaks cover I would even potentially not call for a stealth roll then, as there is no chance of the guard turning in response to a sound.
Except there is no facing in Pathfinder
Except there is no facing in Pathfinder
Rules like "there is no facing in Pathfinder" usually apply to situations like combat. What happens outside combat is more heavily affected by the DM than the RAW rules. The DM is there to decide how his NPCs react in a natural and enjoyable way. It would be even better if the DM could randomize some reaction for example he could give the NPC 1% chance of looking that way.
First set of housr-rules:
1) determine the guard's best sense (most often sight)
2) if the rogue has a special effect against that sense, he gets a bonus up to +40 (like invisibility does for sight)
Second set:
1) determine the guard's senses used (sight, scent, tremorsense)
2) the rogue gains a bonus for each effect against each sense (but if two effects affect the same sense, only the better one applies)
I like the second set. Silence would give +10 since, even if there's no facing rules, the rogue would know to move only when the guard turns around. There would also be additional spells to mute other senses (scent, for instance). For tremorsense, the obvious fly spell helps, too.
Going the non-magical way, you might want to learn stealth from real-world examples. Sneaky predators know to put themselves against the wind when hunting preys with scent. Creatures with blind sense can be sneaked upon by crawling. Creatures with tremorsense can be approached by tip-toeing bare-footed. These aren't included in the rules, but can be house-ruled easily.
Stealth has always been one of the hardest things for me to manage as a GM.
Case in point, last weekend I ran an encounter where five hobgoblins were sneaking through the woods on patrol into an ambush set by the PCs who had used the druid's owl companion to spot them from the air.
As I interpret the rules it means that I have to roll stealth five times for the hobgoblins, five times for the pcs considering the bonuses from cover and concealment, roll perception five times for the hobgoblins, and finally roll perception five times for the PCs. Then I have to keep track of who notices who.
Can someone please tell me that I am doing this wrong?
I have thought about simplifying group stealth scenarios by rolling a single die for each group and then adding the respective bonuses or just doing an uber metagame and placing everyone's stealth/perception values on the battlemat so that you know who you can attack.
If playing detailed games is your stuff, go for it. Personally, I'd make one check per group. When a group stays more or less together (in order to communicate discreetly), chances are that perceiving one allows to perceive the others - or at least a rough estimation of the group's size.
Now, if you plan an ambush with enemies waiting in different trees with bows at the ready, that's another kettle of elves altogether...
Yeah, it might make more sense to roll group perception based off of the highest one in the group. In the above scenario I assumed, since the PCs did their due dilligence, that they would surprise the hobgoblins.
Just one of the million rules that I am forced to bend during any given session.
Justwanted to say there is facing in pathfinder, but only for one type of thing walls and tower shield like effects, require facings. Justsaying...
In my houserule, I'd say there is face outside of combat, but in combat it is assumed you are more alert and facing everywhere at all times.
This improves sneaking by someone, but most combat consistent to what rules are so simplifier/speeds up combat.
Seems like a good time to mention that Ultimate Intrigue has information regarding better ways to handle Stealth vs. groups and provides clarifications.
Have fun everyone and stop the necromancy. Only you can prevent thread resurrections.