| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hey all,
I'm running a group of 15th level Pathfinder characters, and one of them has come up with a combo that I don't want to simply nerf, but seems to break the system.
His character, Rogue/Assassin, has taken all the stealth feats, and maxed out his stealth rating. So...with a dex of 20, his stealth is something like +33.
So, having taken Spring attack, he hides in plain sight, attacks, then stealths again.
And most monsters simply don't have the perception checks to see him.
Options/thoughts?
Blindsense/blindsight/tremorsense/scent will make his Stealth checks irrelevant. Dragons will eat his face.
True. Most monstly in the CRish category range either have a very high perception or a way to see sneaky types.
Linnorm , Crag CR 14 true seeing;
Neothelid CR 15 blindsight 100 ft
dragon's blindsense and magic
Nalfeshnee CR 14 true seeing;
14th level class, enough gold to get around it.
Blindsense/blindsight/tremorsense/scent will make his Stealth checks irrelevant. Dragons will eat his face.True. Most monstly in the CRish category range either have a very high perception or a way to see sneaky types.
Linnorm , Crag CR 14 true seeing;
Neothelid CR 15 blindsight 100 ft
dragon's blindsense and magic
Nalfeshnee CR 14 true seeing;
14th level class, enough gold to get around it.
Hmm. Does True Seeing work against Hide In Plain Sight? A quick readthrough suggests not (since it explicitly doesn't work against someone "just hiding"), but since Hide in Plain Sight is Supernatural for the Assassin...
That aside, simply eliminating any shadows (aka areas of dim light) in the area will also prevent the use of the Assassin's HiPS.
There's always the humble readied action.
Faerie fire is a first level spell. Glitterdust is only second.
Area-effect attacks are also good (I know, evasion) But some area effects (fear aura) will work wonderfully.
Mobility builds usually rely on getting around. Even a big bag of caltrops is a huge challenge, to say nothing of solid fog, web, etc.
And, you can't hide from the guy who is grappling you.
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But, keep in mind, you don't HAVE to defend against this. In a way, this character is a version of a high ac build. Good defense, limited offense. At 15th level, one attack a round is its own limitation.
Besides, everyone's primary attack is SUPPOSED to hit.
Think what a 15th level character with TWF could do. Then don't worry about it this one sneak attack. Just beat up the rest of the party. When they complain, point out that they are the only visible opponents, so the monsters attack them.
Peer pressure is a marvelous thing.
Hmm. Does True Seeing work against Hide In Plain Sight?
No damnit.
Neither does Darkvision.
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Nerf his PC ONLY if it seems he's so much better than the other PCs; that's when you nerf a PC. And, of course, let him know that you gotta do it and for what reasons -- work with him on a way to bring his PC back to the other PCs.
IF, however, he's basically the same as the other PCs in overall ability, let him have his awesome Hide on many occassions -- He DID, afterall, design his PC to be great at hiding. Let him have some encounters where he is invulnerable. Otherwise it's THE SAME as never letting a Ranger encounter his Favored Enemy or making all the monsters immune to Sneak Attack damage because the Rogue's Sneak Attack is broken.
Of course, everyonce in a while your PCs are gonna run into the monster with Blindsense or Scent -- or you'll just have to use some DM common sense: no matter what his Stealth modifier is, even with Hide in Plain Sight, in the grassy gnoll he's easily seen by everyone.
It's like a PC with a gross Bluff score still AIN'T gonna convince the monster that "up" is really "down." Even if the monster is stupid and rolls a 1 on Sense Motive.
Hey all,
I'm running a group of 15th level Pathfinder characters, and one of them has come up with a combo that I don't want to simply nerf, but seems to break the system.
His character, Rogue/Assassin, has taken all the stealth feats, and maxed out his stealth rating. So...with a dex of 20, his stealth is something like +33.
So, having taken Spring attack, he hides in plain sight, attacks, then stealths again.
And most monsters simply don't have the perception checks to see him.
Options/thoughts?
That's it? At 15th-level? How pathetic! The goblin rogue/archer in our party has had his Stealth skill in the low 30s since level 5!
j/k. :P
Seriously though, I have asked this very question a number of times myself BECAUSE of our goblin rogue becoming a shadowdancer.
Also, true seeing does not defeat hide in plain sight.
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That sounds cool to me. He's basically got Improved Invisibility on all the time, and for a 15th-level character? That's not broken at all. I'd allow monsters to know what square he's hiding in, and give them a 50% miss chance (total concealment) on attacking him if they try.
Not invulnerable, just invisible. And it's an invisibility that can't be countered by True Seeing (though Glitterdust and Faerie Fire would make him miserable), which is cool. But not overpowered for 15th-level characters, by far. Especially since he has to turn visible to attack.
Hmm. Does True Seeing work against Hide In Plain Sight?No damnit.
Neither does Darkvision.
No need to be rude. I was questioning the post I quoted, who had listed creatures with True Seeing as a way to counter HiPS, not suggesting that it would work. I questioned the Supernatural nature of the Assassin's HiPS, since it's based on shadows, and shadows are the domain of illusions, and illusions are negated by True Seeing. That's a looong stretch though, and even though I'm writing it, I don't buy it.
I do not believe True Seeing works against hiding. It doesn't remove the shadows, and HiPS is not a magical effect hiding the target, only the ability of the target to use Stealth when it would otherwise be disallowed.
HiPS IS a magical effect for Shadowdancer and Assassin. It's an (Su) Supernatural ability. For ranger it is an (Ex) Extraordinary (non-magical) ability and works differently.
I would say True Seeing would work if the HiPS (Su) character has no cover because the character is not just hiding, s/he's Hiding in Plain Sight, a magical effect.
There's a quick way to check for abuse:
Write down how much damage this character does with his awesome sneak attack. Then compare to the rest of the party.
My 2cp says it's less than most.
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HiPS IS a magical effect for Shadowdancer and Assassin. It's an (Su) Supernatural ability. For ranger it is an (Ex) Extraordinary (non-magical) ability and works differently.
I would say True Seeing would work if the HiPS (Su) character has no cover because the character is not just hiding, s/he's Hiding in Plain Sight, a magical effect.
HiPS is a magical effect that does not hide the character. It allows him to hide. True Seeing allows you to see things as they really are. You still need to spot the hiding character because you are seeing him as he is hiding. Nothing in the True Seeing rules states 'reveals hiding characters'.
As for his dex and stealth, I guessed based on the information I had when posting this..;) (by throwing together a quick build).
My issues isn't that he's overpowered per-se...but the following situation:
Round 1: He's hiding, he does the instant kill attempt as an assassin.
Rounds 2-4: Watching next victim
Round 5: kills
Rounds 6-8: Watching next victim.
This more came from a discussion where we were jokingly discussing having him and 2 others go through a 16-20th level area..(Many Frost Giants with a few Barb levels)..and he was saying that he could solo it...because with Lunge, the monsters couldn't see him to hit him..and he'd always select the Giant who wasn't covered by all the rest.
And from my understanding of the rules (thus my post), someone who is invisible, you can do the 50% miss chance because you made a perception to know where they are. Someone with a high enough stealth you don't have any chance to attack them...as you don't.
Just don't want to effectively nerf him by having the big encounters throw glitterdust all the time...
As for his dex and stealth, I guessed based on the information I had when posting this..;) (by throwing together a quick build).
My issues isn't that he's overpowered per-se...but the following situation:
Round 1: He's hiding, he does the instant kill attempt as an assassin.
Rounds 2-4: Watching next victim
Round 5: kills
Rounds 6-8: Watching next victim.This more came from a discussion where we were jokingly discussing having him and 2 others go through a 16-20th level area..(Many Frost Giants with a few Barb levels)..and he was saying that he could solo it...because with Lunge, the monsters couldn't see him to hit him..and he'd always select the Giant who wasn't covered by all the rest.
And from my understanding of the rules (thus my post), someone who is invisible, you can do the 50% miss chance because you made a perception to know where they are. Someone with a high enough stealth you don't have any chance to attack them...as you don't.
Just don't want to effectively nerf him by having the big encounters throw glitterdust all the time...
That's the thing though, HiPS let's you use your stealth skill even while being observed and even in light, which is something you're normally not allowed to do at all. However the said enemies could still make a perception check to see this character and if they do see and find him, they can hit him normally. It really shouldn't be that big of a deal unless you're throwing him one enemy at a time.
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Again, prepared action is your friend. You are not hiding at the moment you attack, even if you are before and after the attack
It is impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Thus, as soon as enemies are on the alert that an assassin is among them, they prepare an action to attack as soon as they see him.
Also, The 50% miss chance applies if you target the square they are in. You can guess a square and attack it. Hell, if your BAB is high enough, you can attack multiple squares.
But it all comes down to that quote above and prepared actions. They see him lunge. And Interrupt with an attack while he is visible. I don't think he could solo the areas against raging power attacking giant barbarians on a rogue/assassin's hit points.
The Barb's uncanny dodge is exceeded by the Rogue/Assassin levels...
But I hadn't thought of the readied action...which spring attack wouldn't stop.
I dunno...a combat with 10 Frost giants, each with 2-4 levels of Barbarian on top... Shouldn't be something a single 15th level character, in a dungeon, can handle without significant effort. (CR11-13 each)
But the readied action is a very good idea...thanks..:)
My issues isn't that he's overpowered per-se...but the following situation:Round 1: He's hiding, he does the instant kill attempt as an assassin.
Rounds 2-4: Watching next victim
Round 5: kills
Rounds 6-8: Watching next victim.
So, a 15th level character can kill a giant in four rounds? This, my friend, is not an emergency. A 15th level fighter could do four times as well.
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Have them post a few polar bears as a guard. Scent is tougher to beat.
The Barb's uncanny dodge is exceeded by the Rogue/Assassin levels...
Only rogue levels count towards defeating uncanny dodge.
So, a "16th-20th level area" famous for its powerful frost giants would have... what, frost giant barbarians that are 7th level minimum (CR9+7=16)? So he'd need to be an 11th level Rogue to defeat their uncanny dodge. No other class in the game stacks in such a way. So unless he's an 11th level Rogue/8th level Assassin, he's not going to be able to sneak attack them out of HiPS period end of story.
EDIT:
I dunno...a combat with 10 Frost giants, each with 2-4 levels of Barbarian on top
I'm seeing him as a 7th level rogue/8th level assassin? So he can sneak attack the CR 11 frost giants. As a 15th level character, you should be able to kill a CR 11 frost giant solo. You should probably be able to kill three or four.
Consider it this way: A 5th level character, let's say, paladin or fighter 5. Versus an orc. Or a 3rd level character, like a ranger, versus a goblin. Their ECL is 4 above the CR of their opponents. They should be able to kill three or four of these creatures in a solo fight.
Completely agree with the single kill point. The issue came when he was describing how he could decimate the entire dungeon. "It would be tedious, but they couldn't see me or hit me, and with spring attack and lunge, I'd keep killing them...one every 4 rounds."
As for the area, the first CR 16 encounter is 10 Frost giants with 2 levels in Barb. I'm not expecting this to really do more than slow down the group as a whole...but the concept of 1 15th level character being able to kill all 10...and then go on to kill all the way up to the leaders without serious harm...that's concerning.
Was looking for a way that wasn't simply:
"Ok, you spend 3 hours and clean out the Frost giants. You then wait for the party to join you to fight their leader."
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If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
That's all the reason you need to deny 'I kill them all without challenge'. (Which would mean he gets no experience, btw.) After the first one went down, any other ogres in the area would be un-Death Attackable targets as they would know the assassin as an enemy.
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...The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked).That's all the reason you need to deny 'I kill them all without challenge'. (Which would mean he gets no experience, btw.) After the first one went down, any other ogres in the area would be un-Death Attackable targets as they would know the assassin as an enemy.
+1 I knew taking the freeway home was a bad idea!
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I honestly think that means that the assassin cannot death attack someone who recognizes them as a character as an enemy as opposed to if they simply know there's an assassin in the area they become immune to death attack.
And the ogre isn't going to recognize the character as an enemy after he decloaks, murders the ogre's friend, then recloaks? The assassin still becomes visible when he attacks, so after that first hit, the others know him as an enemy. Thus the rest cannot be Death Attacked.
+1 I knew taking the freeway home was a bad idea!
I recommend an iPhone. Makes surfing while driving fun and easy!
A frost giant lair should have, say, several pet saber-tooth tigers on patrol, sniffing around for intruders the giants might miss. If Hide in Plain Sight Guy gets cocky and goes it alone, he's bound to get pinpointed by the cats, whose gaze then tips off all the giants that he's standing in a particular square. Then the first giant probably opens combat by tossing a torch into that square, thereby eliminating all shadows in which to hide.
Exactly. Why people insist on thinking a class feature that can be defeated by a 0-level spell is overpowered escapes me.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
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A frost giant lair should have, say, several pet saber-tooth tigers on patrol, sniffing around for intruders the giants might miss. If Hide in Plain Sight Guy gets cocky and goes it alone, he's bound to get pinpointed by the cats, whose gaze then tips off all the giants that he's standing in a particular square. Then the first giant probably opens combat by tossing a torch into that square, thereby eliminating all shadows in which to hide.Exactly. Why people insist on thinking a class feature that can be defeated by a 0-level spell is overpowered escapes me.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Illuminating the assassin's square is not enough.
"As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind."
Not only do you have to provide a source of illumination (a torch or the Light spell), but you also have to ensure that there is no obstacle which could provide a shadow within a 10' circle around the assassin's square.
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As to Hide in Plain Sight:If there is no shadow, in other words the place is well lit, his Hide in Plain Sight is useless. Would I have entire adventure sites designed to screw him, no. If he expects to walk into a throne room and Hide In Plain Sight, well surprise, people who know what Assassins can do generally prepare for them. So he won't be killing a whole building full of Frost Giants anytime soon.Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use
the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is
within [b]10 feet of some sort of shadow[b], an assassin can hide
himself from view in the open without having anything
to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his
own shadow.
This is what I was thinking from the beginning of this thread. It is definitely not a super power level ability it is being made out to be.
In a word of assassins, I am sure important folks would have totally lit throne rooms that this ability would be of no use
At level 15 casters are essentially ruling the world
Someone being very good at hiding isn't that big of a concern.
HiPS is a magical effect that does not hide the character. It allows him to hide. True Seeing allows you to see things as they really are. You still need to spot the hiding character because you are seeing him as he is hiding. Nothing in the True Seeing rules states 'reveals hiding characters'.HiPS IS a magical effect for Shadowdancer and Assassin. It's an (Su) Supernatural ability. For ranger it is an (Ex) Extraordinary (non-magical) ability and works differently.
I would say True Seeing would work if the HiPS (Su) character has no cover because the character is not just hiding, s/he's Hiding in Plain Sight, a magical effect.
Nothing in True Seeing reveals hiding characters, but Hide in Plain Sight allows a character to hide outside the rules of normal hiding. IF the character is hiding normally then they have cover or concealment that allows them to hide. A character who is Hiding in Plain Sight arguably has neither. He just has a magical effect (HiPS) that allows him to hide without either.
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradiminsional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True Seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. it in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjuction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.
Hide in Plain Sight, as granted by the shadowdancer and assassin classes is a supernatural ability (Su). It is magical in nature and does not work in antimagic fields. That means it's more than "simply" hiding. It is magical. If the character were simply hiding then it wouldn't reveal them, but they're magically hiding without the need of hiding behind anything.
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A character who is Hiding in Plain Sight arguably has neither.
Arguably. Which means each of us has to decide for themselves on that. As we have been over this before, I am not going to get into an argument with you over it in this thread. Good day.
Keep in mind that just because the giants don't know where the rogue is, doesn't mean they can't randomly attack squares. If they happen to attack a square the rogue occupies, then there's a 50% chance it hits (provided the attack hits the AC).
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Uncanny dodge allows you to retain your dex bonus to AC. It does not make you immune to sneak attacks.
Like TriOmegaZero just pointed out, retaining your dex bonus is immunity to one of the two most common forms of sneak attacks. Since the other form is "being flanked", it's pretty hard for a solo player to sneak attack anybody with uncanny dodge.
I do not believe True Seeing works against hiding. It doesn't remove the shadows, and HiPS is not a magical effect hiding the target, only the ability of the target to use Stealth when it would otherwise be disallowed.
The shadowdancer version is supnatural.
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I also don't see anything preventing a giant readying an attack with a trigger of 'When that damn tiny ninja pops out of the shadows and attacks me'. He has to 'decloak' to actually land the blow, at which point they get an attack on him prior to his attack actually striking home. (The fact that they somehow react fast enough to hit him before his dagger reaches their kidney is a bit strange, but chalk that up the the ready action rules.) Even with Lunge, he's still attacking from within their 10ft. reach. Unless - and thinking about it, this would be kind of cool in a sneaky way - he's using a reach weapon and combining it with Lunge? Hmm, assassin with a longspear..interesting idea.
Plus, as has been mentioned, any caster with glitterdust will utterly wreck his day. They just ready an action for him decloaking and then slap him with a -40 to Stealth checks and a chance of blinding, all for the price of a 2nd level spell.
Hey all,
I'm running a group of 15th level Pathfinder characters, and one of them has come up with a combo that I don't want to simply nerf, but seems to break the system.
His character, Rogue/Assassin, has taken all the stealth feats, and maxed out his stealth rating. So...with a dex of 20, his stealth is something like +33.
So, having taken Spring attack, he hides in plain sight, attacks, then stealths again.
And most monsters simply don't have the perception checks to see him.
Options/thoughts?
Yeah, this character should be no more difficult to deal with than someone with spring attack and improved invisibility.
But he's NOT even invisible so:
A 1st-Level druid could take a readied action and cast Faerie Fire on him. (or even just in his general vicinity since it is an area affect)
There are multiple ways to entangle him, thus hampering his ability to spring attack.
Also, a good final solution could be to build a 15th-level Barbarian/Fighter with a Great Axe / Power Attack, a readied action, and a tanglefoot bag. lol. Your headache-player springs in, triggers readied action, gets entangled, and gets annihilated by a raging whirlwind of rage and destruction...
Oh, a bunch of low level Alchemist would be good for that kind of tactic too.
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ADD ON:
A pack of Advanced Hellhounds or any other creatures with the Scent ability could zero in on him, while he was studying his target.
Also, Spring Attack does not provoke A.O.O. from the target of his attack - because of his attack. This basically gives him the one free square as he moves away from the target of his attack. An enemy with reach (a giant with a polearm for example; not to mention multiple squares of reach), would still get A.O.O. as he moved through the extra spaces.
Or just you could just Phantasmal Killer him with a readied action, and see how he likes dealing with save or die type effects.
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I do not believe True Seeing works against hiding. It doesn't remove the shadows, and HiPS is not a magical effect hiding the target, only the ability of the target to use Stealth when it would otherwise be disallowed.The shadowdancer version is supnatural.
So? This is True Seeing, not Antimagic Field. It doesn't remove the conditions that allow the character to hide, it allows you to see through those conditions. You still must beat the characters Stealth check with your perception.
If True Seeing lets you defeat HiPS without removing the shadows the character is using to hide in, then so does darkvision. Are you arguing that assassin/shadowdancers can NEVER hide from someone with darkvision?
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So, having taken Spring attack, he hides in plain sight, attacks, then stealths again.
And most monsters simply don't have the perception checks to see him.
Options/thoughts?
This is why I despise high-level play. It's not simulating any aspect of fantasy lierature. It becomes a genre unto itself - and I have no interest in it at all.
This is totally cheesey. If some player did this in one of my campaigns, it would be the point in my game sessions where my books get closed and that campaign ends. I'm done. No appeal. I got better things to do with my time.
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This is why I despise high-level play. It's not simulating any aspect of fantasy lierature. It becomes a genre unto itself - and I have no interest in it at all.
This is totally cheesey. If some player did this in one of my campaigns, it would be the point in my game sessions where my books get closed and that campaign ends. I'm done. No appeal. I got better things to do with my time.
Um, okay. But you'd at least ask your player to adjust their playstyle first, right? And let him rework his character to be more inline with your expectations?