I am running the Fellnight Queen module and one of the players is playing a 5th-level rogue/2nd-level shadowdancer.
He is dominating EVERYTHING thanks to his Hide in Plain Sight ability, high Stealth check modifier, and ability to Spring Attack.
He has since made a habit of springing in from hiding, attacking with sneak attack, springing out and making a hide check. Even when he takes the -5 penalty for moving over half his speed (which is 40 ft. by the way) enemies still can't find him! Shadows and concealment are always EVERYWHERE (look around and count the number of shadows within 10 feet of you, they are next to impossible to get away from).
I'm beginning to think that this ability is broken. The module and bestiary stat blocks simply don't assume they will be opposed by Stealth masters (they have a +0 to +5 Perception modifier VS his +13).
Nothing in the module is ever going to find this guy while he continues to pick them apart.
How do I challenge such a character? Am I overestimating/misreading HiPS in some way?
As already noted, the ready action is your friend. Use it. Concealment via magic is easy to get. A potion of blur, for example. Bright light ruins hide in plain sight.
Remember: "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
Leaping in and out of hide in plain sight via Spring Attack could certainly count as sniping, and thus incurs the -20 Stealth check penalty in addition to penalties associated with movement. And that's being generous, IMO, since the sniping rule is meant to apply to ranged rather than melee attacks.
IOW, use the rules you already have. Enforce the rules you already have. Nothing more is needed.
Like it has been said, readied actions are your friend. And that is all you really need. Hide in Plain Sight is supposed to be pretty awesome, but if you can glitterdust or Faerie Fire him, he is completely exposed.
Or if you want to be a little evil, just throw him up against a beast. Most beasts I have come across in the Beastiary have mad perception checks(not to mention scent which means they will detect his square regardless, and if they make their perception it negates the miss chance from concealment), so you can spice it up by throwing something in that will not only see him, get an AoO, but also possibly Grab him, and watch him squirm.
Honestly, the worst encounters I have experienced so far were random encounters with beasts.
I imagine he is doing a sizable amount of damage, at most around 5d6+13 ish average about 28 damage. I have seen a ranger of the same level pull off consistently 40+ damage a round shooting arrows at a favored enemy, and a ray focused wizard of the same level pulling off ~35 damage a round. All classes have their weaknesses, the goal is to add in enough variance in encounters that no one player always outshines the others.
What this shadowdancer is doing, is he's moving, attacking and losing his stealth, and then moving and making a new stealth check in the shadows as part of that movement.
I get that, but I demur from assent. The shadowdancer's tactic is an even harder scenario to justify than sniping from cover, and yet it incurs not penalties beyond those associated with movement?
That is not something that "rules totally support", regardless of whether considering the letter of or the spirit of the rules. Instead, it is an interpretation, and it's one that would never fly at my table with me as DM.
Before the shadowdancer's attack gets to land, he must move into position. This may very well impose the -5 penalty movement penalty, and would certain permit a Perception check before the attack is made.
All of that aside, a class ability that can be defeated by a light spell is far from being the greatest thing since sliced bread.
As already mentioned, there are any number of rather simple ways to make the shadowdancer feel the pain.
Darkvision also negates hide in plain sight.
It's not so much his damage output that bothers me as it is the inability of most enemies to do anything about it.
EDIT: Also, daylight won't help. That will only cast more shadows for him to use.
Furthermore, I overheard my players scheming. They now know the power of HiPS. The intend to abuse it.
Some of the things I heard:
- Walking out in an open field with a kite tied to the shadowdancer so that there is always a shadow nearby.
- Go down a well lit hallway while using HiPS. How does he get down the hallway unseen? He rolls a marble down the hall to create a moving shadow that he can follow.
- Once he gets his spell-like abilities he intends to use his silent image ability to create shadows where there previously were none.
- Hide by using his own companion shadow once he gets it.
- While helpless (such as being tied up for torture), simply vanish on the spot in order to confuse his captors.
I cannot find a situation in which he will not be able to use this ability.
I've already made two rulings on the ability: 1) He has to stay within 10 feet of a shadow OR concealment in order to maintain it. He cannot start near a shadow then walk into a well lit open area and stay hidden. 2) The nearby shadow in question must be at least as large as he is.
That's not really abusing it, it's more "make really wacky ideas that will result in more or less no actual advantage whatsoever, let's put the emphasis on 'wacky,' too"
I mean honestly, flying a kite? Yeah, no bad guys will ever suspect something there. And how often does "being tortured" come up in your campaign?
Darkvision also negates hide in plain sight.No, it doesn't. It's the presence of shadows that's required, it doesn't depend upon the observer.
As to what do you do with someone that has hide in plain sight?
Does one sneak attack a round in combat really impact things? Pick apart the rest of the party. Use the lack of a party member during your turn allow you to reach 'squishy' members of the group. If the shadowdancer takes his AOO then he's visible until he can move again.
If he's going solo, then ready actions against him. Grab him, blind him, and/or faerie fire him.
-James
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/hideInPlainSightAndSnipingClarification4o0ne
Darkvision does work unless the person has some sort of cover. Also readying action should help with this issue. Or just "ignore" and wreck the other.
@ Ravendork: Secondly he doesn't go invisible when HiPS. It allows when to roll a stealth roll while in a shadow.
If the players are going to do stupid things like the things you mentioned. U can just say no it doesn't work that way. Or if they feel the need to be "wacky". Use thier tactics against them with people who can do it better and see if they change thier tune?
Darkvision also negates hide in plain sight.No, it doesn't. It's the presence of shadows that's required, it doesn't depend upon the observer.
As to what do you do with someone that has hide in plain sight?
Does one sneak attack a round in combat really impact things? Pick apart the rest of the party. Use the lack of a party member during your turn allow you to reach 'squishy' members of the group. If the shadowdancer takes his AOO then he's visible until he can move again.
If he's going solo, then ready actions against him. Grab him, blind him, and/or faerie fire him.
-James
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/hideInPlainSightAndSnipingClarification4o0ne
Darkvision does work unless the person has some sort of cover. Also readying action should help with this issue. Or just "ignore" and wreck the other.
@ Ravendork: Secondly he doesn't go invisible when HiPS. It allows when to roll a stealth roll while in a shadow.
If the players are going to do stupid things like the things you mentioned. U can just say no it doesn't work that way. Or if they feel the need to be "wacky". Use thier tactics against them with people who can do it better and see if they change thier tune?
Your link doesn't seem to go anywhere. Also, as far as I know, having darkvision does not help you see somebody using HiPS. Furthermore, HiPS does not necessarily mean you are hiding IN the shadows (that's what NORMAL sneaky people do).
Raving dork i think you are using an old version of HIPS for the shadowdancer.
From the PRD
"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
This requires there to be an area of Dim Light, not just a shadow. This cannot be done simply with a shadow. A well lit room will negate this ability, regardless of how many additional individual shadows they cast.
I have a tricksy Shadowdancer in my party, and I know he probably does more than he should because I forget half the g!!!&!n stealth rules most of the time. But even with stealth rules in mind, yes, there's some nasty tricks a Shadowdancer can do when very mobile and using HIPS.
That said, many of the suggestions are good (a la readying attacks--which I need to remember to try--and concealment and spells like glitterdust and faerie fire). Additionally:
1. Use monsters with tremorsense or blindsense and other abilities.
2. Pay attention to what Kolokotroni said about dim light. Daylight will actually now screw up a Shadowdancer if the area is already lit to some degree. Alternatively, total darkness will also keep the Shadowdancer from being able to HIPS.
3. Attack him with flying creatures and with very large creatures that is going to be hard to zip by. Use creatures with a good to hit bonus and Combat Reflexes (a lot of outsiders have this) so they can get an AOO when the Shadowdancer attacks--at that moment he won't be stealthed.
4. Use spells like Acid Fog and Cloudkill--area of effect spells that DON'T require to-hit rolls or reflex saves. I know that the Shadowdancer in my party is effectively immune to anything requiring a reflex save (high reflex save + Improved Evasion, which in my personal experience is the most OP ability in the game), so finding other ways of doing damage (that force fortitude or will saves if any save at all) is the best course of action.
Of course, don't do these ALL THE TIME. This is the Shadowdancer's strong point; sometimes they should be able to get the jump on the target and do their thing--but likewise they should not be dominating every fight. I have to resist temptation to nail our Shadowdancer constantly with things that require Will saves, but sometimes those are the only things that affect him at all sometimes.
Raving dork i think you are using an old version of HIPS for the shadowdancer.
From the PRD
"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
This requires there to be an area of Dim Light, not just a shadow. This cannot be done simply with a shadow. A well lit room will negate this ability, regardless of how many additional individual shadows they cast.
Exactly, even a torch creates normal light and you could only use HIPS outside the 20' radius. The shadow from a kite or a marble is not considered dim light
From the PRD"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
The rule for Hide In Plain Sight. Allows you to make the roll but not ignore any of the possible penalties for bad stealthing conditions. The negative modifiers will still be applied to the roll.
Raving dork i think you are using an old version of HIPS for the shadowdancer.
From the PRD
"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
This requires there to be an area of Dim Light, not just a shadow. This cannot be done simply with a shadow. A well lit room will negate this ability, regardless of how many additional individual shadows they cast.
I am using the correct version of Hide in Plain Sight as given to me by the game designers themselves.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
Notice how both abilities are worded differently despite being the same ability? Some months ago I asked a game designer why the assassin was better at hiding than the shadowdancer (shadows are far more common and easy to come by then dim light after all), which is a prestige class all about hiding (whereas the assassin is all about death attack).
He responded by saying that it was simply bad wording and that both prestige classes could use their HiPS abilities provided there is a shadow OR dim light within 10 feet.
So I'm afraid my problem is quite real.
EDIT: Found the quote.
The wording for those two is different because the categorization of lighting in Pathfinder was a relatively late to the game refinement, and we weren't able to standardize every mention of illumination in the game. The assassin's a good example.
In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.
So I'm afraid my problem is quite real.
James Jacobs wrote:
The wording for those two is different because the categorization of lighting in Pathfinder was a relatively late to the game refinement, and we weren't able to standardize every mention of illumination in the game. The assassin's a good example.In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.
Shadow and A SHADOW are not the same thing. This is a case of players ruleslawyering their way into rediculousness. By what james is saying both versions of Hips should refer to a kind of illumination. A marble or a kite will not change the illumination of an area. I wouldnt allow hips to be used at my table without the kind of 'shadow' that grants conceilment vs creatures lacking darkvision.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Yea unfortunately this statement
In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.
Does not really say whether both the Shadow Dancer and Assassin should be able to hide in Dim light only, or Dim light and shadows, did he mean to say that the assassin should have said dim light as well, that the Shadow Dancer should have read shadows, or that both should be both?
Shadow and A SHADOW are not the same thing. This is a case of players ruleslawyering their way into rediculousness. By what james is saying both versions of Hips should refer to a kind of illumination. A marble or a kite will not change the illumination of an area. I wouldnt allow hips to be used at my table without the kind of 'shadow' that grants conceilment vs creatures lacking darkvision.
So I'm afraid my problem is quite real.
James Jacobs wrote:
The wording for those two is different because the categorization of lighting in Pathfinder was a relatively late to the game refinement, and we weren't able to standardize every mention of illumination in the game. The assassin's a good example.In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.
So you are interpreting it as the OTHER opposite extreme--unusable.
If you can only use HiPS in low-light conditions/dim light than the ability becomes moot since ANYONE can already hide under those conditions.
Yea unfortunately this statement
In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.Does not really say whether both the Shadow Dancer and Assassin should be able to hide in Dim light only, or Dim light and shadows, did he mean to say that the assassin should have said dim light as well, that the Shadow Dancer should have read shadows, or that both should be both?
There is only one valid interpretation that allows the ability to remain functional: You can use it with dim light OR shadows nearby.
Shadow and A SHADOW are not the same thing. This is a case of players ruleslawyering their way into rediculousness. By what james is saying both versions of Hips should refer to a kind of illumination. A marble or a kite will not change the illumination of an area. I wouldnt allow hips to be used at my table without the kind of 'shadow' that grants conceilment vs creatures lacking darkvision.
So I'm afraid my problem is quite real.
James Jacobs wrote:
The wording for those two is different because the categorization of lighting in Pathfinder was a relatively late to the game refinement, and we weren't able to standardize every mention of illumination in the game. The assassin's a good example.In any case, the intent is the same: dim light = shadow. So both of these abilities should work exactly the same, even though the words chosen aren't identical.
So you are interpreting it as the OTHER opposite extreme--unusable.
If you can only use HiPS in low-light conditions/dim light than the ability becomes moot since ANYONE can already hide under those conditions.
But they can hide 10' from such conditions. So they can hide 10' away from a torch instead of 20'. Not that it becomes really useful at that point because there is rarely spotty dimlight rather than mass locations such that HiPS only helps if you run into a bunch of orcs on a starry night.
If you can only use HiPS in low-light conditions/dim light than the ability becomes moot since ANYONE can already hide under those conditions.But they can hide 10' from such conditions. So they can hide 10' away from a torch instead of 20'. Not that it becomes really useful at that point because there is rarely spotty dimlight rather than mass locations such that HiPS only helps if you run into a bunch of orcs on a starry night.
Furthermore, HiPS allows you to hide even when observed. That's the big difference, IMO; a normal Stealthy dude can't do a Spring Attack in and out of dim light and resume hiding because he's being observed after he attacks.
The hiding when observed was what I was hinting at with the Orcs (dark vision) on a starry night (dim light otherwise gives everyone concealment)
Earth elementals.
-Can be summoned
-Immune to sneak attacks
-Tremor sense
Use them as a barrier between Mr Sneaky and the rest bad guys. Either he spends the whole fight dealing with the elementals, or he takes AoOs trying to get past them.
So you are interpreting it as the OTHER opposite extreme--unusable.
If you can only use HiPS in low-light conditions/dim light than the ability becomes moot since ANYONE can already hide under those conditions.
No, that is not the case. What it allows is for you to hide while being observed in an area you normally could not. A regular character regardless of skill at stealth cannot step OUT of dim illumination while stealthing. A character with hips only has to be within 10ft of that area in order to hide. The character hips can also hide when someone is looking directly at them, which a normal character cannot do.
To both Charender and Ughbash, you are forgetting we are discussing Hide in Plain Sight. It's a Supernatural ability to practically disappear while people know where the character is. Otherwise, you wouldn't need HiPS because you can hide in Dim Light anyway.
Of course all my counterpoint does is open up a can of worms.
To both Charender and Ughbash, you are forgetting we are discussing Hide in Plain Sight. It's a Supernatural ability to practically disappear while people know where the character is. Otherwise, you wouldn't need HiPS because you can hide in Dim Light anyway.
Of course all my counterpoint does is open up a can of worms.
The actual question was "how do I deal with HiPS?" My answer was use strategic placement of earth elementals.
Earth elementals are summon monster/ally lists, and thus they can be easily added to a lot of encounters. They have tremorsense, which completely negates HiPS and they are immune to sneak attacks. Thus properly placed earth elementals can be a real pain for a HiPS Rogue to deal with.
That was part of the can of worms. How does tremorsense negate Hide in Plain Sight.
That was part of the can of worms. How does tremorsense negate Hide in Plain Sight.
Well, the quote is kinda ambiguous.
From perception
"Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range."
I take that to mean that a creature with tremorsense 60ft. will automatically pass a perception check against any creature touching the ground within 60ft. Past 60ft, they get a +8 to perception checks.
Umm tremorsense would locate a land-bound HiPS rogue's square, but he/she would still have full concealment.Mind you they would indeed mess things up, but then so would many spiders, creatures with scent, etc.
I just don't see it as a problem beyond how it might look on paper to someone.
-James
There is no pinpointing a person with HiPS. If the perception check is passed, they are not hidden and thus get no concealment.
What is the real issue? You have a character that is too effective. Talk to your player and see if the two of you can find some common ground where you are both happy. You could nerf him which will likely just tick him off and then he may just find something else just as disrupting.
He likely thinks he is being quite clever, but will he be as proud if he looses a GM to burnout? It is in his best interest to work with you.
What is the real issue? You have a character that is too effective. Talk to your player and see if the two of you can find some common ground where you are both happy. You could nerf him which will likely just tick him off and then he may just find something else just as disrupting.
He likely thinks he is being quite clever, but will he be as proud if he looses a GM to burnout? It is in his best interest to work with you.
Of course, how effective is he really?
The only thing he is REALLY effective at is not getting his ass kicked. At 7th level, he gets one attack a round at 1[W] + Str + 3d6. A TWF Rogue at 7th level in flank will be getting 1[MW] + Str + 4d6 + 1[OHW] + 1/2 Str + 4d6.
I can honestly understand both sides of the argument for the extremes of HiPS, though you're players are really cutting cheese with ideas like the kite and marble....unless he is the size of a dragonfly. If it really starts to bother you (which it seems to already do) and you don't mind having some fun at the PCs expense, then FROGHEMOTH!!!! and after the rouge is swallowed whole and killed you can turn to him and say "So how's that marble working out for you?" In all seriousness, its a power that's a little hard to figure out exactly what's going on. I agree with the idea that the dim light/shadow needs to be big enough to cover the character. I also agree with the idea that the PC is basically sniping, moving into and out of cover while attacking. Its really no different than a Shadowdancer attacking with a weapon that has reach and sniping stealth checks are made as a move action so you can talk to the player about the how the mechanics work.
What is the real issue? You have a character that is too effective. Talk to your player and see if the two of you can find some common ground where you are both happy. You could nerf him which will likely just tick him off and then he may just find something else just as disrupting.
He likely thinks he is being quite clever, but will he be as proud if he looses a GM to burnout? It is in his best interest to work with you.
He thinks its as broken as I do. Fortunately, he (in regards to HiPS) is rather understanding and is basically waiting for me to find out how it is supposed to work/make up my mind on how I think it should be run.
We think it should be powerful. We don't think it should beat out great invisibility (or even normal invisibility).
I think my problems with HiPS, specifically (rather than what the player is doing) are as follows:
1) Stealth is clear in when you lose it. You either lose cover/concealment, choose to be seen (such as making an attack), or someone beats your Stealth check with their Perception check. HiPS, however, is not so clear about how long and under what circumstances you can maintain your stealth. As far as I can tell, the only thing that will give you away while using HiPS is either doing it deliberately (such as making an attack), or having someone beat your Stealth check (unlikely if you know what you're doing).
2) It seems to be better than invisibility and great invisibility in FAR too many ways.
3) The ability is not clear in how it is activated. Using stealth is usually part of movement (since you have to move to cover or concealment), but is technically a non-action. HiPS does not require you to move to cover or concealment, so it basically doesn't require an action. He simply becomes invisible on the spot with a full round of actions left to him. Because of that, it is possible via the RAW to simply re-hide the moment you are spotted (luckily, my players haven't thought that one up yet). Unless the spotter will always beat his Stealth check on a natural 1, he will never stay visible for long.
4) How does one describe the ability in action? It gives us zero hints other than it is supernatural in nature. Does the shadowdancer pull nearby darkness/shadows to him in order to conceal his presence? Or does he literally sneak about IN the shadows like Benge from Vampire Hunter D?
HiPS is supernatural ability that lets you stealth while being observed as long as you meet conditions. It takes the "if some one can can see you, you can't stealth" penalty out of stealth. Sure, I guess that could be better than Invisibility. It's more like Invisibility at will (given a successful skill check), but not Greater Invisibility because you have to become visible.
He thinks its as broken as I do. Fortunately, he (in regards to HiPS) is rather understanding and is basically waiting for me to find out how it is supposed to work/make up my mind on how I think it should be run.
We think it should be powerful. We don't think it should beat out great invisibility (or even normal invisibility).
I think my problems with HiPS, specifically (rather than what the player is doing) are as follows:
1) Stealth is clear in when you lose it. You either lose cover/concealment, choose to be seen (such as making an attack), or someone beats your Stealth check with their Perception check. HiPS, however, is not so clear about how long and under what circumstances you can maintain your stealth. As far as I can tell, the only thing that will give you away while using HiPS is either doing it deliberately (such as making an attack), or having someone beat your Stealth check (unlikely if you know what you're doing).
I think an easy way to simplify HiPS is to just imagine that HiPS extends the concealment granted by any area of dim light to a radius of 10 feet.
So, a 20ft radius patch of dim light is effectively a 30ft radius patch of dim light for a character with HiPS. If the HiPS character leaves that area, they are become visible.
2) It seems to be better than invisibility and great invisibility in FAR too many ways.
In some ways, it is. HiPS is not negated by see invisiblity or true sight. But HiPS can be negated by light, daylight, etc.
In other ways, invisibility is much better than HiPS. With invisibility, perception can only pinpoint you. Against HiPS, if they make a perception check, they see you, period.
3) The ability is not clear in how it is activated. Using stealth is usually part of movement (since you have to move to cover or concealment), but is technically a non-action. HiPS does not require you to move to cover or concealment, so it basically doesn't require an action. He simply becomes invisible on the spot with a full round of actions left to him. Because of that, it is possible via the RAW to simply re-hide the moment you are spotted (luckily, my players haven't thought that one up yet). Unless the spotter will always beat his Stealth check on a natural 1, he will never stay visible for long.
It is part of the move action, and unless you allow rampant metagaming, you only get 1 check when you hide. The player's character does not know they rolled badly on their stealth check, and thus have not reason to "rehide".
4) How does one describe the ability in action? It gives us zero hints other than it is supernatural in nature. Does the shadowdancer pull nearby darkness/shadows to him in order to conceal his presence? Or does he literally sneak about IN the shadows like Benge from Vampire Hunter D?
Seeing how the ability is supernatural, and a shadowdancer can teleport between shadows at higher levels, pulling nearby shadows is probably not a bad way to imagine it.
If I don't die, I might stay a Ranger long enough in RotR to get HiPS just to mess with my DM.
If I don't die, I might stay a Ranger long enough in RotR to get HiPS just to mess with my DM.
Yeah, but the ranger HiPS is much, much better.
If I don't die, I might stay a Ranger long enough in RotR to get HiPS just to mess with my DM.Yeah, but the ranger HiPS is much, much better.
Exactly. It just makes it even more confusing.
A Rogue/Shadowdancer using spring attack?
Seriously - he can't be doing significant damage...when he hits at all. He's got a BAB of 4 at 7th level and can only make standard attacks. Most melee based Rogues of his level are attacking in flank with 4d6 sneak attack multiple times/round. They should be doing over double the damage he does on an average round.
When they get to level 9 and are attacking 4 times per round with 5d6 sneak attack, and he's still attacking once...then he's really going to suck and blow.
Defensively decent - until he comes into contact with Blindsight/Blindsense/Tremorsense/Area of Effect - which shouldn't be that rare after all. However, offensively - it's got to be so bad that this character can't be doing significant damage against anything.
Is the rest of the party not engaging? If they are, concentrate attacks on them. Spellcasters first of course - this Rogue isn't doing anything to protect them after all.
If he's entering combat by himself - he's dead the first time he's surprised by blindsight. Until then, have the opponent move out of his range - forcing him to use his movements to move closer. Use Area of Effect spells or splash alchemical items.
A spellcaster may ready a glitterdust or Faerie Fire for him as well. That will cook his goose.
Hide in plain sight is certainly better than invisibility, but really it SHOULD be. Invisibility can be learned by any 3rd level wizard, 4th level sorcerer, or certain Clerics. Hide in Plain Sight is far more difficult to achieve. That said, HiPS has restrictions that invisibility does not.
A greater invisibility rogue can at least full attack!
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It's not the starting the Stealth that's hanging you up, it's when Stealth ends!
Lets break the characters actions down logically while looking at the rules. He's making a Spring attack which is a single move action with an attack in the middle (after a min of 10 feet). Now usually Stealth is made as part of a move action, so if for example you make a double move in a round you must make 2 stealth checks (same as if you were Climbing).
So as Spring attack is a single move action with an attack in the middle, the Shadowdancer may be hidden before the attack but not after. The attack ends the Stealth for that move action and thus the rest of the Shadowdancers turn. I think that makes it pretty cut & dry.
--Vrock the Casbah
It's not the starting the Stealth that's hanging you up, it's when Stealth ends!
Lets break the characters actions down logically while looking at the rules. He's making a Spring attack which is a single move action with an attack in the middle (after a min of 10 feet). Now usually Stealth is made as part of a move action, so if for example you make a double move in a round you must make 2 stealth checks (same as if you were Climbing).
So as Spring attack is a single move action with an attack in the middle, the Shadowdancer may be hidden before the attack but not after. The attack ends the Stealth for that move action and thus the rest of the Shadowdancers turn. I think that makes it pretty cut & dry.
--Vrock the Casbah
Or
I start my turn hidden. I move 10 feet forward, attack, the move 10 feet back. I make the hide check after my attack and end my turn hidden.
But since stealth is part of a move action, I would say you only get 1 per move action.
It's not the starting the Stealth that's hanging you up, it's when Stealth ends!
Lets break the characters actions down logically while looking at the rules. He's making a Spring attack which is a single move action with an attack in the middle (after a min of 10 feet). Now usually Stealth is made as part of a move action, so if for example you make a double move in a round you must make 2 stealth checks (same as if you were Climbing).
So as Spring attack is a single move action with an attack in the middle, the Shadowdancer may be hidden before the attack but not after. The attack ends the Stealth for that move action and thus the rest of the Shadowdancers turn. I think that makes it pretty cut & dry.
--Vrock the Casbah
Or
I start my turn hidden. I move 10 feet forward, attack, the move 10 feet back. I make the hide check after my attack and end my turn hidden.
But since stealth is part of a move action, I would say you only get 1 per move action.
Which is what is happening. It's like watching Nightcrawler go after the president in X-Men 2.
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Let's talk this through a bit.
Imagine a room with some dim light, a couple torches here and there. And some monsters fighting some PCs.
An oridinary rogue can hide in the shadowy area because it gives him concealment (20% miss chance and allows the use of Stealth). He can move around in those shadowy areas, making Stealth checks with every move action. If he can remain in the shadowy areas AND reach an enemy who is either in the shadowy areas or adjacent to them, then he can (with a successful Stealth roll), make a Sneak Attack against such an enemy.
He can Spring Attack (if he has the feat) out of the shadows, make one attack, then spring back into the shadows, but this would not be a sneak attack because he is attacking in a well-lit area where he is observed by the monsters. Yes, I know, a whole bunch of wishful thinkers really WANT this to work, but RAW says you can't use Stealth in good lighting while being observed, so our rogue can Spring Attack but not Sneak Attack.
However, I will say for argument's sake that since so many people want to be able to do this, that maybe we'll allow it (as a houserule).
So, in this scenario, a rogue can get one attack per round, maybe as a sneak attack, by springing out of the shadows and then back into them.
Now let's compare this to a Shadowdancer. Given the same scenario, the Shdadowdancer can hide in the same shadows (everyone can since everyone has Stealth, even with no ranks). So what does the Shadowdancer get from HiPS? He can step 5' or 10' out of those shadows and still make a Stealth check - the rogue cannot do this.
Because of our Houserule allowing us to Sneak Attack an observant enemy in good lighting, there is almost no need for HiPS at all - we've almost nerfed it into worthlessness. To reexamine that, without the houserule, the normal rogue must sneak attack an enemy who is in the shadowy area, or adjacent to it. If the enemy is not adjacent to any shadows, the rogue must step out into good lighting, give up stealth, and make a normal attack - regardless of whether he uses Sneak Attack or not. But the Shadowdancer can move up to 10' away from the shadows and remain Stealthed, which means the Shadowdancer can sneak attack an enemy standing 15' away from the shadows. The rogue cannot do that.
But, applying our houserule, all HiPS allows the Shadowdancer to do is get 10' closer before he Spring Attacks. If he needs those 10' to reach his target, then HiPS will help a lot. If he doesn't need them, then HiPS does nothing for the Shadowdancer.
Now, modify the scenario to make this room brilliantly lit, or put this battle outside in broad daylight, and both the rogue and the shadowdancer are screwed - neither one of them will have any way to hide.
Or modify the scenario to put the room into utter darkness or "dim" lighting with no "good" lighting anywhere, and the rogue and the shadowdancer are equally deadly - they can both hide in every square in the room, and they can sneak attack every enemy at will.
Or modify the scenario to give the monsters Darkvision and now, for the rogue, there is no "dim" lighting or "shadowy area" within 60' of those monsters, but the Shadowdancer can still use HiPS. The rogue cannot hide within the range of that darvision, so he can't sneak attack, but the shadowdancer can.
Scent, or Tremorsense, or Blindsense, will give the monsters the knowlege that there is danger present, but these abilities don't offset the concealment, so they don't prevent the use of Stealth. If the monstes cannot see the rogue/shadowdancer due to Stealth, then the rogue and shadowdancer can both use sneak attacks against them.
Or give those monsters Blindsight and neither of the stealthy guys will be hiding, plain sight or otherwise.
All the other nonsense about rolling marbles and flying kites is just silly - the Shadowdancer needs an area of dim light (shadow). An "area" in our game terminology is a 5' square where this lighting condition is prevalent. Not the shadow of a little kite, or the shadow of a marble, or even a shadow of a person.
So, break it down, and HiPS only gives the Shadowdancer 10 extra feet of maneuverability out of the shadows into the light without blowing his Stealth, and it lets him hide in or near shadows even when the enemy has vision that otherwise could plainly see a normal rogue in those shadows..
That's not such a big deal.
Edit: fixed.