I've been lurking around in the forums a bit and every time someone wants to illustrate how awesome a class can be, they throw out some level 20 monster that must have taken at least a week to cook up, considering all the material they've been using. Not that I feel a need to complain about it, it just strikes me as odd.
I've never played a character to level 20 myself, for the simple reason that characters above level 16 is just downright silly. They have to run around the planes, saving the cosmos and kill gods simply because they can hardly find a challenge worth an afternoon in the Primematerial. And my GM simply can't be bothered ;)
But that's actually besides the point. What I was wondering was: Why does people find level 20 so fine for illustrating a class' awesomeness? Why not level 5? Where you're still fighting for your life most of the time. Or level 10? Where you have found your footing and is about to use your powers for a greater good? Everyone can be cool at level 20. They have the gold, the HP, the skills and hopefully the stats to be awesome. It's much harder to be kickass in the odd zones like level 7, or somesuch.
Anyway. Sorry for ranting, just found the level 20 hype amusing :)
It's just something that has moved along with the different editions. You have to have basic start and finish points and here they are 1 and 20.
I agree that high level play does get somewhat silly but others may enjoy reaching that level 20 goal.
I think it's because most classes do just fine between levels 5 and 15 or so. If I recall, one designer said that 4-14 is the sweet spot for d20. I don't know how true that statement is as I can run games just fine at any level without having to go beyond the Prime Material Plane.
I do agree that the game gets much harder to run the higher the level because the characters have amassed a ton of power.
When I do class evaluations, I like to use level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. It gives me a good overview of how the class progresses. In other words, just because it's awesome at level 20 that doesn't mean the class can be played until it gets there.
Precisely my point Dorsey. I've seen a ton of character concepts that was useless from level 1-10, and solely survived on the mercy of the party (don't ask why, it's the kind of group I play in sometimes), but they would be awesome at level 20, thus making them easy to show off then. And so a level 20 character isn't in anyway a good way to illustrate a class, or concept.
A well. enough ranting for now ;)
You can't kill a god at level 20 (at least, not without some serious plot devices). I've played as high as level 130 (not for the faint of heart, btw) and I have no idea why many people consider the low-epic area (17-30th lvl) to be "silly" or out of hand. Its certainly an acquired taste that not everyone will enjoy, but it always surprises me when someone says they've never played a character above 16 or so.
I've played as high as level 130 (not for the faint of heart, btw)I would love to read a thread on what that was like and what pitfalls you came across, along with how your group managed them.
I was going to post a reply here but it ended up being too long. I'll create a thread and link here when I get the chance.
Well, for my 2 cents, I think level 20 will be a nice way to end my current Monday night game set in Golarion, based in the Mwangi Expanse. (Most of the group is about level 15 at the moment, with a couple exceptions, the wizard is 16th level and the (returning) paladin is 14th level (I think, he might be 15th as well).
I'm trying to bring a nice satisfying conclusion to the campaign that basically began with Crucible of Chaos and I believe that level 20 (or there about) will give them a nice finish to what they began almost 2 years ago.
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but...
So... that's why 20 level might not be such a bad "cap" for some groups. :)
Well ... that was a lot less interesting than I thought. But thanks for the replies, even though most of them had nothing to do with the actual question x)
Well, to answer your actual question then.
Some games do get to level 20. If you create a character concept that achieves its "awesomeness at level 5 where you're still fighting for your life most of the time", maybe that class really sucks at level 20. Maybe it's too late when you get to level 20 and say "Holy carp, I sure wish I had done things differently 15 levels ago!"
You are right though, illustrating a class' awesomeness at ONLY level 20 is silly too.
So, as a previous poster or two pointed out, design your character and then go about illustrating its awesomeness at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. Prove that the character is awesome throughout its entire career. Then you, and anyone else reading your "build" online will know whether the character you presented is somethign they want to consider for any campaign at any level.
That's the only way it really makes sense, unless you're competing in a "build" competition or discussion that deliberately focuses only one one specific level.
Heh. I don't really plan on posting "builds" around here, since I don't really have any questions about optimization since I stopped powergaming. I just wondered why people always seem to think that level 20 are the bees knees for showing off the awesome of their concept :)
As I said; it wasn't as interesting as I thought. I guess I'm just too old and snarky x)
Personally speaking, I don't see the point in the high levels. I find that it stretches my 'suspension of disbelief' to breaking point. To each his own, of course - and, just to be contrary, I'm GMing Rise of the Runelords and enjoying it so far.
In line with the OP's comment though, you may want to consider the E6 (or 'Epic 6') variant, which can be found here. I'm seriously considering adopting it for future sessions, once RotRL is all done.
I'm with Real Sorceror or though I havent played as high as 130 acouple of them have got to 30-35 and I like that level and all it takes is a good DM and you can still be challenged and have fun. Good to know atleast 1 other group has played to really high levels I might suggest 130 to my group I have now at the moment I'm talking them round to a Lvl 60 campaign. Looking forward to getting the link to the details of your 130 game :)
Long live high level games! LOL
Incidentally the firast time we played level 30 we had started at level 1. We had just got the first 3e adventure path as it came out and ran through them all (as they were released) till we killed asardalan or what ever the dragon was called and then carried on with some other adventures till the DM wanted to have a break from DMing, we ended at level 30. Good times :)
I was going to post a reply here but it ended up being too long. I'll create a thread and link here when I get the chance.I've played as high as level 130 (not for the faint of heart, btw)I would love to read a thread on what that was like and what pitfalls you came across, along with how your group managed them.
Why do I get the feeling this will never happen...anyone feels like betting? :)
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Why level 20? Don't you mean "Why any level?"
Systems that use levels have level maximums because not all systems want to make infinitely expanding rules. Even pathfinder doesn't claim to hard stop at 20, it just defines that as outside its comfort zone.
PS: The highest I've ever hit was 23, but that's because I've never enjoyed making characters that start higher than about 5 (the aforementioned one started at 1 and was voluntarily retired because they were outshining everyone).
What I was wondering was: Why does people find level 20 so fine for illustrating a class' awesomeness? Why not level 5? Where you're still fighting for your life most of the time. Or level 10? Where you have found your footing and is about to use your powers for a greater good?
I think you mostly answered your own question:
Everyone can be cool at level 20.
As Kthulhu mentions, level 20 works as a "finishing point" (for core rules) when planning a character's advancement. It lets people show a character at their "best."
Some of the character development/comparison threads do show characters at various levels. The DPR Olympics thread is based on 10th level characters, for example.
Personally, when planning characters I tend to create them at the following levels (unless they're personal pregens for an AP): 1st, 5th or 6th, 10th, and 20th. This gives a good range for low, mid, and high level play (5th-6th marking the start of mid level play and 10th-12th being the start of high level play). If I just want to rough out the concept, I'll simply choose race, ability scores, and list the class/class feature and feat choices at each level.