Why would anyone take an option that is wholly incompatible with both Exploit Vulnerability and Implement's Empowerment?
Since it doesn't deliver Strikes, you get none of the basic damage boosts. Sure you could wield a melee weapon in your other hand, but once you've used the wand, you can only move or attack, either putting you in a less than desirable position or completely negating your range advantage.
You could instead use a throwing weapon to maintain your range advantage...once. Then you're practically unarmed or having to waste actions drawing another.
There are workarounds, such as Quick Draw or returning, but then you're wasting additional resources just to get to where a non-wand thaumaturge got for free!
I'm just not seeing many upsides to starring with a wand implement.
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The adept benefit has potential synergy with other party members. Flat footed on a 60' ranged Reflex save is good for ranged & spell attack rolls, as well as hit & run melee martials. Reducing speed is good if the party likes to hit-and-run. Persistent damage is always nice.
The benefits of wand are niche and require party-wide strategizing, but they do exist.
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Why would anyone take an option that is wholly incompatible with both Exploit Vulnerability and Implement's Empowerment?
Since it doesn't deliver Strikes, you get none of the basic damage boosts. Sure you could wield a melee weapon in your other hand, but once you've used the wand, you can only move or attack, either putting you in a less than desirable position or completely negating your range advantage.
You could instead use a throwing weapon to maintain your range advantage...once. Then you're practically unarmed or having to waste actions drawing another.
There are workarounds, such as Quick Draw or returning, but then you're wasting additional resources just to get to where a non-wand thaumaturge got for free!
I'm just not seeing many upsides to starring with a wand implement.
The best option for Wand builds seems to be unarmed ranged (weak and requires ancestry, but lets you fill both hands with non-weapon implements), returning/quick-draw thrown, or one-handed launcher. Rotary Bow in particular has some potential. Prior to treasure Vault we were looking at things like the slide pistol and the hand crossbow (juiced up by Drow Shootist and Archer archetypes)
Past that, though, it's true that Wand is lousy as a starter. Its upgrades offer a lot of its value The basic implement is underwhelming, Adept is usable, and paragon has some real value. If I was going for a wand build, I'd probably take it as second implement and first adept.
To me, Wand Implement feels like something that you shouldn't build the character to try to use constantly. It feels more like a switch-hitter type of idea.
Ranger is often seen as able to be built a good switch hitter. Bow and Bastard Sword for example. Gravity Weapon would apply to both even if switched mid-fight. Things like that.
It looks to me like mundane weapon and Wand Implement Thaumaturge could also be a rather decent switch hitter. So in a party that is synergized for that, it would work rather well.
The base Fling Magic looks a lot like other cantrips. It is a save based effect like Spout and does the 1d4 per level + CHA that is the good damage Cantrip progression. And at least once per fight you can boost that to 1d6 per level + CHA that Telekinetic Projectile has - while still doing half damage on a successful save.
But unlike spellcasters throwing cantrips around, when the enemies close in, the Thaumaturge doesn't have to back off and try to get to safety in order to keep casting. They can switch to using their melee weapon.
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But unlike spellcasters throwing cantrips around, when the enemies close in, the Thaumaturge doesn't have to back off and try to get to safety in order to keep casting. They can switch to using their melee weapon.
I suppose that could be interesting if your wand implement happens to be a wand of manifold missiles.
Free magic missile volley, Strike with damage bonuses, and wand implement fling magic could make for a pretty hard hitting round or two.
The base Fling Magic looks a lot like other cantrips. It is a save based effect like Spout and does the 1d4 per level + CHA that is the good damage Cantrip progression. And at least once per fight you can boost that to 1d6 per level + CHA that Telekinetic Projectile has - while still doing half damage on a successful save.
1d4/level+cha vs save isn't bad for cantrip damage at range, but at least from Arcane and Primal it usually comes packaged with something.
- EArc does it to two different targets
- Spout does it in a 5-foot cube (matters for tiny/diminutive/swarm) and goes 5-foot burst if you have a water feature in the right place
- Scatter Scree does it in two adjacent 5-foot cubes and leaves difficult terrain
I'd say you pretty much have to wait for adept to get something I'd describe as "good cantrip". At that point, though... yeah, it's functionally two different good cantrips, and it gets much better once you can finally upgrade it that second time.
Side note: Thaum Class DC proficiency only gets as far as Master, and only gets *there* at level 17 (and 9 for expert). That's basically the same as spellcasting proficiency for Summoner and Monk.
Still... good cantrip+strike isn't bad, and if you can get yourself both an unarmed ranged attack and flurry of a monk archetype, then you have access to cantrip/strike/strike, which is pretty solid even before you count in Element's Empowerment... and the fact that the lightning can hand flat-footed to your strikes is pretty nice too.
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The problem with "comparable to a cantrip" is that cantrips are designed to be kind of underwhelming on purpose, because they're a backup option for spellcasters. There's also six levels where the thaumaturge is behind on DCs which makes it even worse.
... Also worth noting that it's like half the range of ray of frost without the crit rider, or half the targets of electric arc (but better range), so it's not even a really good cantrip either.
That's not a good look for a core class feature.
Not to mention a damage option that's completely incompatible with your martial damage mechanic also seems like... just kind of a bad idea design wise.
The problem with "comparable to a cantrip" is that cantrips are designed to be kind of underwhelming on purpose, because they're a backup option for spellcasters. There's also six levels where the thaumaturge is behind on DCs which makes it even worse.
... Also worth noting that it's like half the range of ray of frost without the crit rider, or half the targets of electric arc (but better range), so it's not even a really good cantrip either.
That's not a good look for a core class feature.
Not to mention a damage option that's completely incompatible with your martial damage mechanic also seems like... just kind of a bad idea design wise.
In a vacuum, a cantrip is pretty underwhelming, but "cantrip plus martial attack" isn't terrible, with the Summoner as a clear example... and Thaums even have the same DC advancement as Summoners have spellcasting.
Ray of Frost is vs AC, and does no damage on a miss. That's less comparable than you might like.
Even so, it's true... the pre-adept wand is on the weak side. I'll not deny it.
As far as the damage feature... well, they're like the starlit span magus. Wand thaums are playing a somewhat different game than the rest.
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I made great use of a wand Implement on my Strength based Thaumaturge as my ranged option. It wasn't an implement I used every fight but there were plenty of times where the party did not have enough fly spells, or some other issues made it better to fight for range.
Again this just feels like people saying that being 10% less effective than the ideal maximum of the most closely comparable feature of a different build - is somehow unplayably bad and needs to be fixed. No matter how much of a percentage of the other build that comparable feature is.
It is one implement. One tool in your toolbox. You get a second implement at level 5. You can use weapons as well as any other non-Fighter martial.
Yeah, it might be a bit better if you could use Implement's Empowerment and Exploit Vulnerability with it. I haven't done a full math and balance analysis to tell if that is a good idea or not though.
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Again this just feels like people saying[...]
You've cracked the code, yes. People are saying that abilities that aren't very good can sometimes feel bad to use.
How dare they, I guess????
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The group I play in has 6 players.
3 of them are playing 2e for the first time.
I was the last one making a character, with the intent to fill.
We needed a face, someone who can make knowledge checks, and some ranged damage and toolbox utility wouldn't hurt.
(We're a monk, a rogue, a healing cleric, a melee ranger, and a a barbarian)
Wanting to fill the majority of those roles, I chose Thaumaturge. I went with Wand implement, Diverse Lore, and Scroll Thaumaturgy.
I'm certainly not topping damage charts; I mostly use Exploit Weakness to learn a weakness + info from Recall Knowledge and fling magic. But with a lot of new players in damage roles, I didn't want to do something with big numbers.
So while I don't do as much damage as my contemporaries, I was the only one who could effectively combat enemies who were up on ramparts for the first two rounds, while the melees were climbing or running around the back side.
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You've cracked the code, yes. People are saying that abilities that aren't very good can sometimes feel bad to use.
That isn't what people say though. At least not what I am criticizing.
What I notice is that when people come on here and say, 'Hey, this option is good for my group and is quite fun to use .' Then inevitably several other people will follow it up with, 'Nah, that option is hot garbage. It needs errata to even be worth taking.'
So it is quite a bit more than just ' it feels bad to use.'
All I have to do to initiate such reaction is mention things like:
Wand Implement
Witch
Swashbuckler
Alchemist
Investigator
Relics (non-set variety)
Permanent magic items
And probably many more that I have forgotten.
Q: I'm thinking of playing an Occult tradition Witch, any suggestions?
A: Yeah, play a Bard or Psychic and reflavor it.
Me: Witch can be quite enjoyable if you avoid certain traps that we can point out to you.
A: No, Witch is terrible. Unless it gets errata it isn't worth bothering with.
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I rebuilt a character as thaumaturge at level 6, and went for the chunky ancient elf champion in full plate build. So dex 10, courtesy of the new ability score options. Main goal was to make a champion of Arazni, because rapier can use some help to make it a nice champion weapon. Thaumaturge provided that help.
I took wand as my second implement and the first couple of sessions was frustrated that the action economy just didn't really let me use it. Then the third session we were fighting a skyship. Like Pixierose mentioned, it's a ranged option for characters with no real dexterity.