Explain this to me...
An enemy has been recently blinded, is lying prone, under the effects of a silence spell, and ambushed by an invisible (and undetected) assailant casting a fireball...
...why, in the name of ALL that is fantastical, imaginative, and even REMOTELY reasonable does the target have the same capacity to half the damage as well as a well informed target would? We are talking about reflex right? REflex is a REsponse.
Our GM hypothesized that there is a supreme calculation involving many factors which have been carefully considered, suggesting this anomaly was actually a deliberate response to balance out some other factor within the game.
That's crap.
If fireballs and lightning bolts are OP, then fix them.
Isn't spell resistance enough? Speaking of spell resistance...what a crock! The CRB relates SR to "armor class vs. spells". That's freakin' awesome. Can wizards get saves vs. sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face?! Arrrgh.. that's a different post...
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Actually, I'd probably state that he had no dex bonus, which would in fact reduce his ability to make a save. However, trying to justify how any save works has always been one of the more "interesting" aspects of the game. Like how rogues can completely ignore the damge if they save at later levels. Just roll with it bud.
Alternatively, for a justification try out "Due to being blinded and deafened, the mans other survival instincts were heightened. His body responded reflexively to the encroaching heat wave, curling into a protective ball and allowing his outer garments and cloak to take the brunt of the blast while protecting his more vital parts and stopping the heat from entering his lungs."
The other question to ask yourself is "If I were lying prone in this position, would I try to get the DM to allow me a save?"
AS for SR, it's a natural resistance to magic, the same way Natural armour is a natural resistance to getting hit, the same way DR is a natural reistance to damage. If your wizard wants those things there are certainly ways of getting them, just as there are ways of obtaining SR. I don't see the issue on that one I'm afraid.
It may be time for your wizard to lay down and have a good nap though, sounds like maybe he's had a rough day.
Cheers
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It is true that the one flaw I find in the design of 3.x is the nerfing of fireballs and lightning bolts, due not only to the too-easy ref saves, but also to ... Evasion. And everybody and his dog having more Hps, while these spells did not scale.
I sometimes long for the days of yore when they were the most damaging exterminator spells around.
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Actually, I'd probably state that he had no dex bonus, which would in fact reduce his ability to make a save. However, trying to justify how any save works has always been one of the more "interesting" aspects of the game. Like how rogues can completely ignore the damge if they save at later levels. Just roll with it bud.
Yep, turns his dx mod to -5, not likely to make it but still could. Hell, luck can always happen
Explain this to me...
An enemy has been recently blinded, is lying prone, under the effects of a silence spell, and ambushed by an invisible (and undetected) assailant casting a fireball...
...why, in the name of ALL that is fantastical, imaginative, and even REMOTELY reasonable does the target have the same capacity to half the damage as well as a well informed target would? We are talking about reflex right? REflex is a REsponse.
Our GM hypothesized that there is a supreme calculation involving many factors which have been carefully considered, suggesting this anomaly was actually a deliberate response to balance out some other factor within the game.
That's crap.
If fireballs and lightning bolts are OP, then fix them.
Isn't spell resistance enough? Speaking of spell resistance...what a crock! The CRB relates SR to "armor class vs. spells". That's freakin' awesome. Can wizards get saves vs. sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face?! Arrrgh.. that's a different post...
Reflex saves like every other thing in the game is an abstraction. It also represents luck. How many times have you watched an action movie. and wondered "how will he escape now?". Then some random luck saves the hero or villain. Maybe the area the blind or paralyzed guy was in did not get hit by the fireball. I included paralyzed because even when paralyzed you get a reflex save, but it is at a -5.
As for SR, not everyone has SR so it is not enough. Wizards get miss chance which is better than AC. Miss chance is so good that it can negate nat 20's. Since when are evocation spells overpowered?
It is true that the one flaw I find in the design of 3.x is the nerfing of fireballs and lightning bolts, due not only to the too-easy ref saves, but also to ... Evasion. And everybody and his dog having more Hps, while these spells did not scale.
I sometimes long for the days of yore when they were the most damaging exterminator spells around.
Change the damage output to d8's or d10's?
*looks at premise*
*looks at responses so far*
*looks back to premise considering responses so far*
Hmm ... really? Prone, blinded, AND silenced ... and he gets a save?
How about "hell no!" for an answer? GM fiat comes to mind in this case as, IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM is that the same case as what standard Reflex saves (or any save) is meant to represent.
At all ... even slightly.
IMO, that *should* be as likely to wipe someone out as say a "coup-de-grace" would. The whole point of the CdG is that you HAVE no defense. Someone is fully, and completely *at leisure* to kill you ... a prone, blinded and silenced guy is just about as hopeless against a Fireball.
So, for ME, this spells "instant fail" on the save. Roll your damage like normal. There WILL NOT be a save made on that target's behalf. It's not possible for him to have *any* sort of even passive luck in play (unless he's like what that Destined sorcerer bloodline, right?). Hell ... I'd even go so far as to toss on a free "maximize" on the fireball just for effect depending on the situation.
Yeah ... that's my input for your situation. IMO - bad GMing there. The *only* exception would/could be if it was for a PC. Hosing a PC like that would just suck - he *could* still be allowed that chance w/the dex and prone penatlies to the ref save, though (ie: worse, but still a chance). Although, for PC-protection and plot immunity, that's the ONLY reason I'd allow a save at all. Otherwise ... if it's the "bad guys" in that situation, he/she/it WILL get hosed in that scenario.
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Change the damage output to d8's or d10's?It is true that the one flaw I find in the design of 3.x is the nerfing of fireballs and lightning bolts, due not only to the too-easy ref saves, but also to ... Evasion. And everybody and his dog having more Hps, while these spells did not scale.
I sometimes long for the days of yore when they were the most damaging exterminator spells around.
He could also make them volumetric again. That would be fun... until the day someone miss-judges the back blast.
*looks at premise*
*looks at responses so far*
*looks back to premise considering responses so far*
Hmm ... really? Prone, blinded, AND silenced ... and he gets a save?
How about "hell no!" for an answer? GM fiat comes to mind in this case as, IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM is that the same case as what standard Reflex saves (or any save) is meant to represent.
At all ... even slightly.
IMO, that *should* be as likely to wipe someone out as say a "coup-de-grace" would. The whole point of the CdG is that you HAVE no defense. Someone is fully, and completely *at leisure* to kill you ... a prone, blinded and silenced guy is just about as hopeless against a Fireball.
So, for ME, this spells "instant fail" on the save. Roll your damage like normal. There WILL NOT be a save made on that target's behalf. It's not possible for him to have *any* sort of even passive luck in play (unless he's like what that Destined sorcerer bloodline, right?). Hell ... I'd even go so far as to toss on a free "maximize" on the fireball just for effect depending on the situation.
Yeah ... that's my input for your situation. IMO - bad GMing there. The *only* exception would/could be if it was for a PC. Hosing a PC like that would just suck - he *could* still be allowed that chance w/the dex and prone penatlies to the ref save, though (ie: worse, but still a chance). Although, for PC-protection and plot immunity, that's the ONLY reason I'd allow a save at all. Otherwise ... if it's the "bad guys" in that situation, he/she/it WILL get hosed in that scenario.
Most of us have consistent in world physics, which means the good guys, and bad guys follow the same rules so either it works or it doesn't.
I got tired of debating something that has been debated and solved already. the answer is here but expect to do some reading
edit: even unattended magic items get "reflex saves" for half damage.
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there's always a chance the energy washes over you with out doing more than scuffing your clothes.
maybe they were grounded out and took no damage from electricity, or reacted all batman-like and ducked threw the flames.
short of a grenade being implanted in someone (think cell phone bomb from Dark Knight) there is no way they cant "get lucky" and maybe not get hurt.
*looks at premise*
*looks at responses so far*
*looks back to premise considering responses so far*
Hmm ... really? Prone, blinded, AND silenced ... and he gets a save?
How about "hell no!" for an answer? GM fiat comes to mind in this case as, IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM is that the same case as what standard Reflex saves (or any save) is meant to represent.
At all ... even slightly.
IMO, that *should* be as likely to wipe someone out as say a "coup-de-grace" would. The whole point of the CdG is that you HAVE no defense. Someone is fully, and completely *at leisure* to kill you ... a prone, blinded and silenced guy is just about as hopeless against a Fireball.
So, for ME, this spells "instant fail" on the save. Roll your damage like normal. There WILL NOT be a save made on that target's behalf. It's not possible for him to have *any* sort of even passive luck in play (unless he's like what that Destined sorcerer bloodline, right?). Hell ... I'd even go so far as to toss on a free "maximize" on the fireball just for effect depending on the situation.
Yeah ... that's my input for your situation. IMO - bad GMing there. The *only* exception would/could be if it was for a PC. Hosing a PC like that would just suck - he *could* still be allowed that chance w/the dex and prone penatlies to the ref save, though (ie: worse, but still a chance). Although, for PC-protection and plot immunity, that's the ONLY reason I'd allow a save at all. Otherwise ... if it's the "bad guys" in that situation, he/she/it WILL get hosed in that scenario.
I have to agree... There are some cases where the GM is justified in changing a rule to fit the situation. Just as Gygax said, "these rules aren't written in stone". Don't get so hung up on the rules as to ruin the flow of the game. If I was a player who was bound, blind and deaf and the GM didn't give me a save. I wouldn't be mad that I didn't get a save when the rules said I should. I'd be mad at the NPC (hopefully not a PC) that put me in that situation.
Change the rule and see if the other rules are affected by it. If not, then use the changed rule.Sorry... just my opinion. I get a little frustrated when people complain about the rules not matching what they think should happen.
The other side of the coin though is that this is one save against one event and one call by the DM. I'm not ready to answer emphatically for one side of the issue based on that one side.
Would most targets be denied a save, possibly.
Would Slippery McSlipperton the Luckiest Rogue this side of Loki himself get a save? Of course.
That sort of thinking has certainly been part of great game stories in the past for both player and NPCs.
s
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He could also make them volumetric again. That would be fun... until the day someone miss-judges the back blast.Change the damage output to d8's or d10's?It is true that the one flaw I find in the design of 3.x is the nerfing of fireballs and lightning bolts, due not only to the too-easy ref saves, but also to ... Evasion. And everybody and his dog having more Hps, while these spells did not scale.
I sometimes long for the days of yore when they were the most damaging exterminator spells around.
Yes, I was thinking around these lines.
OR : make it D6 + INT modifier ?Say wizard with 18 int at 12th levzl = 10 D 6 + 40 ?
That'd be in line with what it was in 1e.
How would you feel about it ?
I don`t have a problem with the way Reflex Save`s work within the context of the game.
This sounds like a GM call to me. Regardless of what RAW states a reflex save means you are moving or dodging the effect so if you are immobilized (IE paralyzed, held, stunned ect.) you should not get a reflex save. But as far as prone and blinded go when prone you could still roll to avoid the effect though I would have you roll with some sort of penalty.
As I said none of this is RAW but just how I would rule on it at my table.
Consistent physics, eh? Sure ... it's "consistently" in favor of my PC's because they *are* the point of MY games, so if not for them, why the hell bother to play? ;-D
If it's pure not-fun to play the game, why play? If a PC is no better than the average schmuck down the way - why play?
No - the heroes are exactly that - "the heroes" dag nabbit! Let 'em work for it, let 'em sweat and bleed for it, but by RIGHTS they are entitled to "plot protection" for both fun and enjoyment of the hobby.
If you GM's want to be ass-hats and sticklers over RAW vs. RAI vs. "fun factor" at the table, don't be too surprised when your games just aren't that fun, or attendance drops off, or ... whatever.
Will saves are *entirely* different and much easier to allow a roll against. Even "sleeping" you have some sort of "center of being" basically that makes you *you* in the end. Anything that's forcing a will save is trying to mess with the "youness" of *you*, and so, of COURSE you get a save - it's a fundamental tweak to *you* on some level so sleeping or otherwise, there *will* be a resistance. It's the kind of stuff that's messing with say the "realm of the spirit" or what have you. That's not even REMOTELY close to a reflex save, IMO. Reflex save = your innate ability to move away from *something* that's coming into your general vicinity. If you have an inability to perceive your surroundings properly, and are not adequately prepared for movement/motion (ie: prone) you DO NOT get a reflex save benefit. Very simple.
Also, items in player possession were assumed to make use of the same stats/results of the player him/her self, no? That whole "sphere of control" junk right?
To the people posing the situation of "the dagger gets a save, too!" Why? Is the dagger on his person somehow *outside* of his sphere of influence all of a sudden? Are you just trying to take every damn thing possible AWAY from the players with AoE effects by forcing all objects to, likewise save? Save for your hat! Save for your sheath! Save for your clothing (hope you like streaking in tunnels with goblinoids crawling all over it!)!! Save for your jock-strap! It's an object on your person and also in the AoE, so *of course* you need to roll for it!
[snark on]Any GM prescribing to *any* of that is wearing the Crown of Ass-Hattery and it reads like so: "GM's wearing this crown are stricken with the inability to tell RAW from RAI and have a difficult time interpreting the purpose of the game from the rules which define it. Beware if you are a player in these games, for the GM will wield his all mighty 'Beat Stick' against your characters until they, of necessity fail some corner case save of some sort that will result in devastating effects on the poor character. GM's unlucky enough to place this crown upon their head can only be cured by a 'Remove Curse' spell. The DC of this spell is equal to 10 +2 per group member present at the gaming session. Unfortunately, this means it will often require the loss of a few players before the spell can be cast effectively.[/snark off]
Ok, sass aside, here's the point: gaming is about fun, not about RAW to the exclusion of fun and penalization of nonsense.
So, what's that mean?
1) It defends my double standard that allows exceptions and alteration of "physics" to the benefit of PC's as they *are* the most important part of any story.
2) It allows fun to supercede *any* rule at *any* time. This is key ...
3) It allows one save for the character and not to bother trying to break all of his stuff at the same time (see point #2)
Really, it's a very simple thing to keep in mind. Ask just one question, "Will the ruling as GM that I am about to make create more, or less enjoyment for my players right now?"
That's it ... it does NOT get any more simple than that guys and gals.
Lesson's over - learn it. Learn it well and your players will LOVE you for it.
On the whole Reflex save for objects nonsense: If it's an object it CAN NOT FREAKIN' MOVE!!! If you must have a save, though, look to the Fort Rating of the object ... of course, this presupposes you're actually forcing rolls for things that *should* fall within the sphere of influence of the player normally - and so YOU are already making use of the dreaded "house rules" yourselves. Of course, answer my question above before you keep on down this path ... it *can* save you a lot of aggravation.
Either way - take everything above for what it's worth.
{Ie: the opinion of someone that will probably never sit at your table, and essentially, one that's easily disregarded.}
I believe that they are pointing out that an unattended dagger will get a save despite being utterly unable to move. Complaining about how Wizards added unnecessary rules to the game is a little unusual in a thread complaining about how there aren't enough rules to adjudicate Reflex saves if the target is almost-but-not-quite-helpless.
While I've been known to modify rules for dramatic effect or plot protection, having a consistent policy of favoring the players is a bit like letting them play EZ-Mode. The rules ought to be the rules. Exceptions ought to be exceptions.
He could also make them volumetric again. That would be fun... until the day someone miss-judges the back blast.Change the damage output to d8's or d10's?It is true that the one flaw I find in the design of 3.x is the nerfing of fireballs and lightning bolts, due not only to the too-easy ref saves, but also to ... Evasion. And everybody and his dog having more Hps, while these spells did not scale.
I sometimes long for the days of yore when they were the most damaging exterminator spells around.
OH YEAH I LOVED THAT!!! and no shaped spells.
I think making a couple feats that increase the damage dice of AE spells would be GREAT fun...
Improved d6 becomes d8
Greater d6 becomes d10
Superior d6 becomes 2d6...
Superior Maximized Fireball for....240dmg
also add the force effect back in...that 240pt fireball bull-rushes you as well.
While I've been known to modify rules for dramatic effect or plot protection, having a consistent policy of favoring the players is a bit like letting them play EZ-Mode. The rules ought to be the rules. Exceptions ought to be exceptions.
This man speaketh wisdom. Let his voice be heard throughout the land.
He could also make them volumetric again. That would be fun... until the day someone miss-judges the back blast.Change the damage output to d8's or d10's?It is true that the one flaw I find in the design of 3.x is the nerfing of fireballs and lightning bolts, due not only to the too-easy ref saves, but also to ... Evasion. And everybody and his dog having more Hps, while these spells did not scale.
I sometimes long for the days of yore when they were the most damaging exterminator spells around.
OH YEAH I LOVED THAT!!! and no shaped spells.
I think making a couple feats that increase the damage dice of AE spells would be GREAT fun...
Improved d6 becomes d8
Greater d6 becomes d10
Superior d6 becomes 2d6...Superior Maximized Fireball for....240dmg
also add the force effect back in...that 240pt fireball bull-rushes you as well.
This is just a good idea overall, IMO.
Unfortunately, the *rout* would imply it's "metamagic" chain of some kind and would have those damnable "+x spell level" lines attached to it.
Explain this to me...
An enemy has been recently blinded, is lying prone, under the effects of a silence spell, and ambushed by an invisible (and undetected) assailant casting a fireball...
Does he still have his tactile abilities? In other words, can he still feel changes in temperature or pressure? Have you ever sensed someone or something behind you that you couldn't see or hear?
...why, in the name of ALL that is fantastical, imaginative, and even REMOTELY reasonable does the target have the same capacity to half the damage as well as a well informed target would? We are talking about reflex right? REflex is a REsponse.
Look at it from another point of view: maybe the blast is enough to jostle him so that he takes less damage? Maybe he is able to roll with it just enough because he felt the changes in the air and the blast moved him. Even explosive experts aren't always right when they place C4 on stationary objects. A fireball or lightning bolt (or other spell) is fired at a distance without much time to do proper calculations. This is where the caster's abilities come in. In the case of the wizard, he uses his intellect to place the blast in the best location but he can be wrong.
If fireballs and lightning bolts are OP, then fix them.
No fixing needed. A level 5 wizard with an Intelligence of 16 casts the spells with a DC of 16. He can improve this with feats and by increasing his Intelligence. A poor reflex save at this point is +1. Classes that don't generally focus on Reflex also don't focus on Dexterity. So let's assume that the character has a 14 Dexterity. That brings his wonderful save up to +3. That means he already has 40% chance of success. If the caster has just one feat to grant a bonus or casts a spell to increase his relevant ability this survival chance can drop to 25%.
It doesn't really get any better at higher levels without magical aid. The same caster at level 20 with a 22 Intelligence (easily done without any magical aid) casts the same fireball with a DC of 19. The target would have a Reflex save of +8. So he now has a whopping 60% chance of making his save. The caster can easily change this to 30%-40% if built properly and casting proper spells beforehand.
In just the Core Book, 7 out of 11 classes have poor reflex saves. The others are expected to be able to survive those blasts: bard, monk, rogue, and ranger.
Isn't spell resistance enough? Speaking of spell resistance...what a crock! The CRB relates SR to "armor class vs. spells". That's freakin' awesome. Can wizards get saves vs. sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face?! Arrrgh.. that's a different post...
Wizards to get saves v sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face, it's like spell resistance but it's called Armor Class.
My question is, why would he be more vulnerable to the fireball than from an invisible person stabbing him with a sword? Should he be able to be coup de graced given those conditions but not being *completely* helpless? If not, why not? Same reasons apply to a Reflex save. (I'd argue that being prone is actually an advantage if we're talking about avoiding big explosions - note that going prone is one of the "avoid damage from big blasts" tactics in the real world, and "flinging yourself to the ground" is a legit interpretation of a Reflex save versus a lightning bolt...)
I'd allow a save, even if it's just that he feels the heat blast and manages to roll over on his front and cover his head with his cloak so that he doesn't get hurt quite as bad. Just like he'll curl up into a ball when the fighters run up and start "Rodney Kinging" him to try to minimize the damage/pain, which is why he is not completely denied any AC and treated as an AC 5 floor square.
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Isn't spell resistance enough? Speaking of spell resistance...what a crock! The CRB relates SR to "armor class vs. spells". That's freakin' awesome. Can wizards get saves vs. sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face?! Arrrgh.. that's a different post...
Wizards to get saves v sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face, it's like spell resistance but it's called Armor Class.
+1
And sometimes it's called Mirror Image, too.
I'm also gonna have to say that this is what GMs are for. They're not only telling you what the world around you looks like and controlling npcs. They are also there to adjust the rules for situations that aren't properly covered. We're talking about a game that is supposed to simulate an entire world with all its little details, of course that's not going to be covered in a 35 page chapter of combat rules.
Hey - I was just gunning w/CdG being about the 3 rounds of study piece. A blind, and silenced prone guy has to spend 1 round standing up from prone - maybe at least another 1 moving around, and is still blind at the end off all of that. 3 rounds where by an undetectable attacker can absolutely key into place to CdG and there's an end.
:shrugs:
Really.
You're upset that wizards aren't powerful enough.
Really.
Really.
Really.
It's like 1999 all over again!
Is your wizard problem related to fireballs? Evokers getting you down?Really.
You're upset that wizards aren't powerful enough.
Really.
Really.
Really.
Nah, apparently Evokers *suck*
/sarcasm.
He could also make them volumetric again. That would be fun... until the day someone miss-judges the back blast.Change the damage output to d8's or d10's?It is true that the one flaw I find in the design of 3.x is the nerfing of fireballs and lightning bolts, due not only to the too-easy ref saves, but also to ... Evasion. And everybody and his dog having more Hps, while these spells did not scale.
I sometimes long for the days of yore when they were the most damaging exterminator spells around.
Yes, I was thinking around these lines.
OR : make it D6 + INT modifier ?
Say wizard with 18 int at 12th levzl = 10 D 6 + 40 ?That'd be in line with what it was in 1e.
How would you feel about it ?
I think the suggestion is credible. I think apply the flat-footed or any other dex like vulnerability should affect the reflex save unless the sole purpose for its exclusion is to nerf likened spells.
It was stated that luck may justify having a save under particularly perilous circumstances but thats more like a new mechanic in itself and doesn't seem applicable.
So back to my initial challenge of rule interpretation: are spells such as fireball and bolts OP? Are they intentionally being nerfed? Or is it just poor editing? (Like fly rules)
I really appreciate all the feedback regarding this issue and have read as many posts supporting my argument as I have against it.
In the very beginning of the CRB it mentions (in an abbreviated form) that the rules are not meant to be gospel and the GM is ENCOURAGED to make judgement calls that break or adjust the written rules. So anyone who said the reflex debacle is a GM's judgement call is inarguably, justified.
Many people have posted on behalf of the concrete, as-written interpretation of the issue at hand, though they have collectively missed a critical point. Just because a PC, NPC, or monster is allowed a save, what justifies them to do so AS GOOD AS THEY COULD under singular or stackable ailments that empirically inhibit them to do so? Simply put...They should be able to, but not as easily.
If anyone feels the published material should be exonerated of all possible error, (You believe ANY penalty whatsoever is unjustified) please clarify. Justying sensory awareness does not apply to the original subject (the target hasn't been blind, deaf and dumb long enough to adapt)where as stating "evocation needed to be nerfed for game balance", might.
The reason why evokers are somewhat looked down on is twofold.
1) Everything has higher HP, so when spells do the same damage, they're weaker in comparison despite actually being BETTER to cast, and...
2) Damage ain't everything. This is the big one. Hell, it existed in 2e, too. Low level druids, what do they all memorize? Entangle. Oh sure, you could throw a rock at the enemy and do a little damage, or you could completely shut down everyone. Which sounds better to you? At level three spells, you could cast fireball and moderately injure your enemies - hell, we'll even say none of them make their saves! Problem s, they're still alive, and they're still fighting just fine.
Ooooor, you could cast slow and horribly cripple them! Enemy archers and spellcasters? A sleet storm will clear them faster then any lightning bolt. Bunch of ogres stomping your way? Summon Monster at them to put a wall of meat between them and you!
Explain this to me...
An enemy has been recently blinded, is lying prone, under the effects of a silence spell, and ambushed by an invisible (and undetected) assailant casting a fireball...
...why, in the name of ALL that is fantastical, imaginative, and even REMOTELY reasonable does the target have the same capacity to half the damage as well as a well informed target would? We are talking about reflex right? REflex is a REsponse.
Our GM hypothesized that there is a supreme calculation involving many factors which have been carefully considered, suggesting this anomaly was actually a deliberate response to balance out some other factor within the game.
That's crap.
If fireballs and lightning bolts are OP, then fix them.
Isn't spell resistance enough? Speaking of spell resistance...what a crock! The CRB relates SR to "armor class vs. spells". That's freakin' awesome. Can wizards get saves vs. sharpened-metal-objects-swung-at-face?! Arrrgh.. that's a different post...
Then as GM, Change it.
Kind of like the old, rogue falling from 100 feet and being able not to take any damage. If it does not match, what you think as GM, would be able to do in your game, change it.
If the target is immobilized, paralyzed, asleep, or unconscious = Then do not let them make a Reflex saving throw.... instead change it to Fortitude saving throw. ((If they are unable to dodge it, maybe they can tough it out)).
It's also a HELL of a lot less interesting to even ponder.
:shrugs:
Seriously, at this point if there are people out there that want to let freakin' tables, chairs, carpets, rocks, pebbles, sand, and all the rest make saves for every AoE type spell out there - let 'em.
No WAY I'm boggin' my game down with checking every niggling little detail in range to be impacted directly by mechanics.
If something is inanimate ... by definition it can NOT move. Inanimate things should NOT use a Ref save as it's something COMPLETELY beyond their capacity. If a save needs to be made, it should be a Fort save that essentially works IN PLACE OF the Ref save.
Honestly, this is fully ok in a way that REF is not - it's a damn object!!! It can't POSSIBLY move ... at all. Give it a fort save to approximate everyone else's "reaction instincts" and it works much more easily. The thing just has innate "toughness" to try and resist whatever is affecting it - I'm ok w/that. But it's a damn object ... don't talk about "reflexively moving to protect itself" or even outright passive rolls ... it's an OBJECT!!! It HAS no reflexes to speak of ... at all. Period!
That said, how 'bout everyone gets back to their games and plays the way they prefer? Clearly, there are some of both sides - if people have fun rolling like fiends for every damn thing in the room - let 'em. It's NOT something that impacts me in the slightest. Sure - it's crazy-talk, but beyond that - it does NOTHING to impact me, my games, or my tables.
:shrugs: