In the last errata the paragraph about the PC CL needed to make an item was removed. Now the CL of the item is just the DC of the craft/spell craft roll.
In an attempt to actually answer this question, as people do play 3.5/pathfinder mixes, which I assume this question relates to:
You count as caster level 8 with practiced spell caster.
In fact if you where wizard 1/ rogue 4 you could qualify to take craft magic arms and armor with this feat, as your caster level is 5.
Just a reminder:
For nearly every magic item out there, there is no requirement to be a certain caster level to create it. Weapons, armor, and items that mimic these (Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Mighty Fists, etc.) have a requirement that your CL must be at least 3x the enhancement bonus, but that's the only exception.
For everything else, CL is not even a requirement. You don't even have to add +5 to the DC to ignore CL because it's not a requirement.
Sure, you must have access to the required spell, so if your CL is too low to cast the spell you will need someone else to cast it for you, or use a wand, or whatever. Or skip the spell requirement for a +5 DC on the final spellcraft roll to finish the item. Unless you're making a spell-trigger item in which case the spell is a mandatory (un-skippable) requirement.
So, a 3rd level wizard could grab Craft Wondrous Item and make himself a Pearl of Power (CL17 in the book) because that CL isn't a requirement. Of course, this 3rd level wizard would only be able to make a CL 3 Pearl of Power and it could only be used to recall 1st or 2nd level spells (he would choose that when he makes it).
Interestingly enough, any moderately intelligent wizard of 3rd level(!), which is minimal level for Craft Wondrous Item, with maxed out Spellcraft skill can easily create an item that can create caster level 10 fireballs - the necklace of fireballs - without even actually knowing the fireball spell.
DC to create is 5 + CL = 15, add another +5 for not knowing the spell, so DC is 20. A 3rd level wizard with 3 ranks and Intelligence 18 has +10 on Spellcraft, so he can easily take 10 to create the necklace.
Personally, I think it is quite silly to be able to create an item that can cast a spell that you don't even know at a caster level much higher than your own caster level would be, if you could actually cast the spell.
Ex: a wizard 3 with the feat "Craft Wondrous Item" can create an Amulet of Mighty Fists" (with the help of a druid 5 for instance), but the DC will increase by +10.
+5 because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement
and another +5 because it is the druid who cast the spell
No, just +5. There is no penalty for having someone else cast the spell. It even says so in the paragraph right before the one you quoted: "(although access [to the spell] through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed").
Allowed doesn't mean "allowed but penalized". It's allowed, so there is no penalty for having someone else cast the spell.
You are right, however, that the DC gets +5 higher because the creator doesn't meet the minimum caster level of Greater Magic Fang.
So, a 3rd level wizard could grab Craft Wondrous Item and make himself a Pearl of Power (CL17 in the book) because that CL isn't a requirement. Of course, this 3rd level wizard would only be able to make a CL 3 Pearl of Power and it could only be used to recall 1st or 2nd level spells (he would choose that when he makes it).
There is no such thing as a CL 3 pearl of power. By RAW, any pearl of power created after the standard recipe has CL 17. Still, the 3rd level wizard could only create pearls for 1st or 2nd level spells, as this is explicitly listed in the recipe.
Interestingly enough, any moderately intelligent wizard of 3rd level(!), which is minimal level for Craft Wondrous Item, with maxed out Spellcraft skill can easily create an item that can create caster level 10 fireballs - the necklace of fireballs - without even actually knowing the fireball spell.
DC to create is 5 + CL = 15, add another +5 for not knowing the spell, so DC is 20. A 3rd level wizard with 3 ranks and Intelligence 18 has +10 on Spellcraft, so he can easily take 10 to create the necklace.
Personally, I think it is quite silly to be able to create an item that can cast a spell that you don't even know at a caster level much higher than your own caster level would be, if you could actually cast the spell.
Actually, since he is not high enough level to meet the minimum caster level of the required spell (caster level 5 to cast Fireball) then he adds another +5 to the DC.
Side note: The rules don't explicitly state it for all items, but for potions, scrolls, and wands, they specifically say you cannot set the spell level higher than the creator's caster level. Many wondrous items don't actually create a spell effect, but for those that do, like a Necklace of Fireballs, the same restriction seems reasonable if not directly implied.
That said, I would limit a 3rd level wizard to creating a necklace of CL3 fireballs (that do 3d6 damage). The resulting DC to create this item would be 5 + 3 (CL) + 5 (CL too low to cast Fireball) + 5 (not casting Fireball) = DC 18. Easy enough, even with Take-10, but he certainly wouldn't be throwing around 10d6 fireballs.
Just a reminder:
For nearly every magic item out there, there is no requirement to be a certain caster level to create it. Weapons, armor, and items that mimic these (Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Mighty Fists, etc.) have a requirement that your CL must be at least 3x the enhancement bonus, but that's the only exception.
For everything else, CL is not even a requirement. You don't even have to add +5 to the DC to ignore CL because it's not a requirement.
Sure, you must have access to the required spell, so if your CL is too low to cast the spell you will need someone else to cast it for you, or use a wand, or whatever. Or skip the spell requirement for a +5 DC on the final spellcraft roll to finish the item. Unless you're making a spell-trigger item in which case the spell is a mandatory (un-skippable) requirement.
So, a 3rd level wizard could grab Craft Wondrous Item and make himself a Pearl of Power (CL17 in the book) because that CL isn't a requirement. Of course, this 3rd level wizard would only be able to make a CL 3 Pearl of Power and it could only be used to recall 1st or 2nd level spells (he would choose that when he makes it).
On page 550 and 551 of the Core Book, for creating magic armor and weapons the enchantment bonus is called a special perquisite. On page 549 it states that any perquisite not met increases the DC of the item by 5 and that the only mandatory prerequisite is the crafting feat in question.
So, a 3rd level wizard could grab Craft Wondrous Item and make himself a Pearl of Power (CL17 in the book) because that CL isn't a requirement. Of course, this 3rd level wizard would only be able to make a CL 3 Pearl of Power and it could only be used to recall 1st or 2nd level spells (he would choose that when he makes it).There is no such thing as a CL 3 pearl of power. By RAW, any pearl of power created after the standard recipe has CL 17. Still, the 3rd level wizard could only create pearls for 1st or 2nd level spells, as this is explicitly listed in the recipe.
I direct your attention to the Pathfinder FAQ, specifically to Mr. Reynolds' explanation of this very subject.
On page 550 and 551 of the Core Book, for creating magic armor and weapons the enchantment bonus is called a special perquisite. On page 549 it states that any perquisite not met increases the DC of the item by 5 and that the only mandatory prerequisite is the crafting feat in question.Just a reminder:
For nearly every magic item out there, there is no requirement to be a certain caster level to create it. Weapons, armor, and items that mimic these (Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Mighty Fists, etc.) have a requirement that your CL must be at least 3x the enhancement bonus, but that's the only exception.
Though I admit that I should have used the words "special prerequisite" like you did, nonetheless, we are saying the same thing, right?
Thanks for the corroboration.
I direct your attention to the Pathfinder FAQ, specifically to Mr. Reynolds' explanation of this very subject.
With all due respect to Sean, I think that answer doesn't make much sense. The rules state that a pearl of power has caster level 17, not 1, 3, or anything else. It has 17. It does not say "up to 17th", it says "17th". Granted, the caster level of the pearl is irrelevant for it's function, because it is not the pearl that casts the spell but the character who uses the pearl. The only real need for the caster level is for item creation anyway.
Actually, since he is not high enough level to meet the minimum caster level of the required spell (caster level 5 to cast Fireball) then he adds another +5 to the DC.
Where does it say that?
On page 550 and 551 of the Core Book, for creating magic armor and weapons the enchantment bonus is called a special perquisite. On page 549 it states that any perquisite not met increases the DC of the item by 5 and that the only mandatory prerequisite is the crafting feat in question.
Just a small nitpick: a perquisite is something quite different from a prerequisite.
Actually, since he is not high enough level to meet the minimum caster level of the required spell (caster level 5 to cast Fireball) then he adds another +5 to the DC.Where does it say that?
Core Rule Book page 549, first full paragraph.
With all due respect to Sean, I think that answer doesn't make much sense. The rules state that a pearl of power has caster level 17, not 1, 3, or anything else. It has 17. It does not say "up to 17th", it says "17th". Granted, the caster level of the pearl is irrelevant for it's function, because it is not the pearl that casts the spell but the character who uses the pearl. The only real need for the caster level is for item creation anyway.
The rules also say that the creator sets the final CL of the item. A Pearl of Power with a CL of 3, or even a CL of 1, is perfectly permissible.
Yes my group has noticed this and are looking at rules to inclue extra +5 to the DC due to being the "wrong" type ie arcane or divine,and making some items like headbands to have extra requirements for the +4 and then even higher requirements for the +6, because the only problem to magic item creation is the time and money needed to create the item
So a level 3 Wizard can create a CL20 item, by making a DC 25 Spellcraft check (I don't think any item has a CL requirement)? This is automatic success with a high INT (18), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Magical Aptitude, and 3 Ranks. By level 8, there's virtually no reason not to make every item you craft CL20 as you'll have a +15 to the roll regardless of feats.
That doesn't seem right to me - it would appear to be the RAW, however.
I 100% sincerely believe the crafting rules were not designed with the consideration of allowing "Take 10" on item crafting. The point of the fairly easy checks is that a dedicated crafter (max spellcraft) cannot (usually) fail to make something of their own caster level.
I would only ever allow Take 10 on crafting under ideal circumstances, i.e. total seclusion, full laboratory, etc.
That said, I would limit a 3rd level wizard to creating a necklace of CL3 fireballs (that do 3d6 damage). The resulting DC to create this item would be 5 + 3 (CL) + 5 (CL too low to cast Fireball) + 5 (not casting Fireball) = DC 18.
There is no "too low to cast Xth level spell" penalty. I believe you're getting that from the FAQ entry on Pearls of Power, which *do* have that requirement specifically.
why are the caster levels listed in the magic item descriptions? it seems like they do nothing except confuse.
why are the caster levels listed in the magic item descriptions? it seems like they do nothing except confuse.
Let's see. Magic items' caster level determines:
Probably some other things too that I'm just forgetting. That deals with "why caster level?"; as for "why in the item description?", because that's the only logical place to put them.
as for "why in the item description?", because that's the only logical place to put them.The only logical place? Really? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
The second paragraph is not a definition or explanation of Caster Level. It is an explanation of how the caster level is determined when crafting a magical item. This bit of text serves no purpose until 90 pages later, when the text finally discusses creating a magical item.
If this was the only logical place to put this text, it wouldn't have taken 20-some odd posts and multiple days of discussion for someone to stumble across it.
+1
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why are the caster levels listed in the magic item descriptions? it seems like they do nothing except confuse.Looking for the answer to this, I found this excerpt on Page 460:
Seems these sentences should've been in the Creating Magic Items portion of the rules, not 100 pages before them.Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives
the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The
caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well
as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of
the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must
be contended with should the item come under the effect of a
dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the
caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast
the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For
other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a
higher minimum on the creator’s level).
Except:
In the Magic Items Description section, under Caster
Level, delete the last sentence of the second paragraph.
In other words, the creator's caster level being as high as the item's caster level was errata'd out. This happened in 3.5, too, btw.
Caster Level is not a prerequisite for item creation unless it is specifically listed as a prerequisite.
In 3.5, the creator determined the CL. This generally could not exceed his own CL, although using a higher level scroll to satisfy spell prerequisites, or making use of cooperative magic item creation, could lead to some oddities and ambiguity. I'm not fully up to speed on Pathfinder to understand the nuances of this in this edition, but the idea of a caster imbuing a magic item with the ability to create a spell-like effect at a higher level than his owns doesn't work very well for me; necklace of fireball and similar exceptions are that...exceptions or oversights...not something to base a game rule on.
Feat Practiced Spellcaster doesn't exist in Pathfinder, only the Magic Trait: "Magical Knack" which gives +2 BONUS to caster level (this bonus doesn't raise caster level above current Hit Dice).
Why is this being stated so much more often lately on these boards? Did everyone forget one of the main designs of Pathfinder was to be backwards compatible, particularly with, well, WotC's 3.5e books?
Why is this being stated so much more often lately on these boards? Did everyone forget one of the main designs of Pathfinder was to be backwards compatible, particularly with, well, WotC's 3.5e books?
I don't think anyone forgot, but this is a section of the boards specifically for Pathfinder RPG rules. Folks are welcome and encouraged to utilize 3.5 material in their game, but have to realize there will never be an official rule regarding the usage of such content, and as such questions such as these are supposed to be posted elsewhere on the boards.
Most newer posters to the boards don't realize this, and it might explain why you feel you are seeing such statements frequently.
as for "why in the item description?", because that's the only logical place to put them.The only logical place? Really? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
The second paragraph is not a definition or explanation of Caster Level. It is an explanation of how the caster level is determined when crafting a magical item. This bit of text serves no purpose until 90 pages later, when the text finally discusses creating a magical item.
If this was the only logical place to put this text, it wouldn't have taken 20-some odd posts and multiple days of discussion for someone to stumble across it.
Please read the post you're responding to before you respond. I wasn't talking to you at all. I was talking to the person who asked why the caster level was in the item description. You're talking about something else entirely. Furthermore, you even quoted where I specifically called out that I was talking about the item description!
Sorry to bump this thread, but instead of starting a new thread with my questions, I figured to add onto this as what has been discussed some of it pertains to my issues and the thread is not all that old.
I will say, I have poured over the magic creation rules, done searches on “Magic Creation” and even though I know a lot more on the subject, I am still unsure on some aspects.
I think my biggest issue is what truly is mandatory when crafting a magic item. I have seen quotes saying “you ‘must’ do this” or “you ‘have’ to be ‘X’ caster level to make this item”, but then at the end of the post they mention you can still make it if +5 is added to the DC. See, for me, that doesn’t mean you can’t or are prohibited from doing so, it just means it is more difficult.
From what I understand, this is what is ‘mandatory’ to make magic items. There is no way you can add +5 to overcome these:
-the associated craft feat
-for certain items, especially weapons and armor, your CL must be 3x the enhancement bonus of the item being crafted
-you cannot create spell trigger/completion items (scrolls, wands, staves) without having the spell prepared or part of your known spell list
From what I have garnered in the information I have read, that’s it. Everything else can be done by adding +5 DC modifiers if needed.
I can’t say I agree with not attaining the CL for the required item, especially if I want to make a 10d6 wand at only 5th level. But apparently if you add +5 to the DC, it can be done.
Or making that an item with a spell under your capability to cast, as even Sean Reynolds indicated it can be done, here.
Am I understanding this right? Please correct me if I am not. Everything not following a prerequisite, besides what I listed above, can be done with a +5 (or more) DC modifier?
Also, crafting wonderous items and rings, it is understood that you take the listed CL of the item, not of the caster?
So for example, with my sweet +5 Cloak of Resistance, the CL is only 5? Even though I was a 16th level Wizard when crafting it? Can’t say I am happy about that, with having a higher CL for your magic items would certainly be beneficial. I realize it would be more difficult to craft, but I think at that level, I feel my Spellcraft would be plenty high enough to deal with that easily enough.
Sorry for the long post, but I just have been very muddled what I have read about magic item creation.
From what I understand, this is what is ‘mandatory’ to make magic items. There is no way you can add +5 to overcome these:
-the associated craft feat
-for certain items, especially weapons and armor, your CL must be 3x the enhancement bonus of the item being crafted
-you cannot create spell trigger/completion items (scrolls, wands, staves) without having the spell prepared or part of your known spell list
yes thats right
I can’t say I agree with not attaining the CL for the required item
That makes two of us
Am I understanding this right? Please correct me if I am not. Everything not following a prerequisite, besides what I listed above, can be done with a +5 (or more) DC modifier?
Again thats right, I know and if you look at this you can see how silly this is, a 3rd lvl cleric try's to make a pearl of power lvl 3 the DC is the same as a lvl 9 pearl of power.
To be honest, I am not as concerned about creating an item you are short a few levels of the listed CL for the item.
For example, crafting a Tome of Clear Thought, has a CL of 17. I wouldn’t have much of an issue of allowing that to be done if the crafter is level 15. However, I would assign the +5 DC modifier. From how I read the rules now, there isn’t even that, you can just make it normally, even if you are below the listed CL.
But where I truly have an issue with is crafting an item where you don’t have the level (experience) to cast the spell. Other spell lists don’t bother me as much, like a Wizard making an item that uses a divine spell, maybe give him a Spellcraft check on the spell.
But it really bothers me is some low level spellcaster who can craft an item, where he doesn’t even have the skill to cast the required spell, by adding a +5. And this is coming from a player, not a DM.
The rules also say that the creator sets the final CL of the item.
No. The rules say that "For potions, scrolls, and wands the creator can set the caster level[.]" But they also say "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself."
A pearl of power isn't a potion, scroll, or wand. Therefore, by the published rule on p.460, the creator has no say in what level it is. There is no such thing as an armor, weapon, ring, rod, staff, or wondrous item with a caster level other than the one specified in the item description.
I don't know why the FAQ ignores this rule. Perhaps the rule will be hit with the errata stick at some point.
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The rules also say that the creator sets the final CL of the item.No. The rules say that "For potions, scrolls, and wands the creator can set the caster level[.]" But they also say "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself."
A pearl of power isn't a potion, scroll, or wand. Therefore, by the published rule on p.460, the creator has no say in what level it is. There is no such thing as an armor, weapon, ring, rod, staff, or wondrous item with a caster level other than the one specified in the item description.
I don't know why the FAQ ignores this rule. Perhaps the rule will be hit with the errata stick at some point.
This rule has a lot of baggage associated with it. The 3e and 3.5 developers have indicated that the intent of CL in the description was to be for a typical found item and not something associated with the creation of the item. The 3.5 DMG errata says what Jake indicated, that the creator determines the caster level of the item. This errata is not OGC.
The errata for Pathfinder removes the CL requirement sentence, but retains the sentence that the CL is determined by the item. As in 3.5, this is ambiguous and confusing. The passage is found in the description of the magic items, not in the process for creating them. The item, unless an intelligent item, has no ability to decide it's own CL. :)
It is unclear whether all magic items of a given type are always that CL or whether it is the intent that the CL of a magic item (however it is determined) determines the CL. Was the intent that the Spellcraft check mechanism was to go along with the fixed CL? Doing so allows for a creator to create an item well over his personal ability, such that he loses control over it if stolen. Or, is the intent as the developer indicates in the FAQ, and which Jake indicates above.
I approach the game as a continuation of the 3.5 game, not a replacement for it. After all, the marketing slogan is 3.5 THRIVES. As such, I agree with Jake; I do not find the FAQ troublesome. For those who see Pathfinder as a reboot to be taken in isolation of the 3.5 lineage, I can understand the difference of opinion.
The rules also say that the creator sets the final CL of the item.No. The rules say that "For potions, scrolls, and wands the creator can set the caster level[.]" But they also say "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself."
A pearl of power isn't a potion, scroll, or wand. Therefore, by the published rule on p.460, the creator has no say in what level it is. There is no such thing as an armor, weapon, ring, rod, staff, or wondrous item with a caster level other than the one specified in the item description.
I don't know why the FAQ ignores this rule. Perhaps the rule will be hit with the errata stick at some point.
I hope i can clear this up a bit, you can find the answer to this problem by reverse building the item using magic creation rules, take a pearl of power (seems to be everyone's favorite) for example, a lvl 1 pearl of power cost 1000 gold as the pricing is based on the spell lvl squared, an argument on this particular item is difficult as CL does not factor in to it's price, however it is simple to se that the listed CL is that of a 9th lvl pearl
this is also errataed specifically "Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level. However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st. For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement"
but you can reverse engineer most magic items by breaking down the price and discovering the mechanics of the items creation and most (if not all) follow the rule of meeting minimum CL to cast the spell, in the case of items with alternate "Levels" such as the pearl of power the CL adjusts accordingly.
my personal ruling would be you have to be high enough level to cast the spell, OR have a scroll or something OR make an appropriatly high spellcraft (+5 for each level between you and the spell that needs casting if you also cant cast that spell)
for example 4th lvl wizard wants to make a CL7 "fireball glove" (homemade 1 charge per day 7d6 damage" well frankly it would be hard, theres a 3 lvl differance so +15 and the spell isn't known +5 added to the base of 12 (5+7) for a total of 32 spellcraft required to make. it would be much better to try making it CL 5 and deal just 5d6 with only 1 lvl differance so +5 no spell +5 added to 12 for just a DC of 22, this is certainly doable but not guaranteed for the low level caster. mind you thats my house rule and the Core rules are still a bit convoluded on that topic.
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That is saying that an item created with a 3rd lvl wizard spell cannot be CL 1-4, that it must be at least CL 5. It does not suggest, however, that you cannot craft it. Instead, it suggests this:
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item
If you make a Pearl of Power (4th) it requires a minimum CL of 7, thereby making the craft DC 5+7... you could not make a 4th spell lvl pearl of power with a CL of 3, because 4th lvl spells require a caster lvl of 7.then add any +5 DCs for requirements not met
So a level 3 Wizard can create a CL20 item, by making a DC 25 Spellcraft check (I don't think any item has a CL requirement)? This is automatic success with a high INT (18), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Magical Aptitude, and 3 Ranks. By level 8, there's virtually no reason not to make every item you craft CL20 as you'll have a +15 to the roll regardless of feats.
That doesn't seem right to me - it would appear to be the RAW, however.
A crafter I made runs afoul of this regularly. What happens is this:
To make a Spell Trigger item, you MUST be able to actually cast the spell yourself. So to make a wand of natural armor, you need to be able to cast natural armor. To make a potion of mage armor, you must be able to cast mage armor. This requirement can't be bypassed.
Let's say you want to make a CL 20 item that lists six spells as prerequisites. It also lists being 20 level as a prerequisite for one of the item's benefits. Maybe because it's a magic weapon or armor. You are level 3 and can only cast ONE of the spells needed.
DC to craft is 20(Item CL)+5(base)+5(missing spell)+5(missing spell)+5(missing spell)+5(missing spell)+5(missing spell)+5(not level 20)=total DC 55
Maybe you should hold off on crafting it till you meet more of the prereqs cause that's a pretty high chance of making a cursed item. Hell, at level 3 even if you've min/maxed your spellcraft... it's pretty much a 100% chance of making a cursed item. Because you probably don't have the +35 to Spellcraft (minimum) needed to have a 5% chance at crafting it.
Until a few hours ago nobody had replied to this post in 5+ years.
I'm not saying you can't revive it, I just want you to be aware that you are replying to posters who have likely found the answer by now.
Until a few hours ago nobody had replied to this post in 5+ years.
I'm not saying you can't revive it, I just want you to be aware that you are replying to posters who have likely found the answer by now.
whoops I hadn't noticed. I've just recently had some of the same issues come up in game and thought i'd help with what i had foud. thanks for the heads up though.