Rogue: simple optimization tips & common pitfalls.

[Thalin]

Ah, I forgot old CE; my bad. But still, my build uses trip as well, so it's needed. If I wasn't playing a fighter-tripper right now I might consider the rogue tripper; he actually papers out well. There again, everything is easier for 25-point builds.

I rarely run into a group with no CHA-primaries; I let that guy be the face (or me in one case).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Jiggy wrote:

drbuzzard wrote:

failure of a tumble check on the battlefield now leaves you pretty well boned (tagged and prone).

I beg your pardon?

It's an error they made when combining the 3E skills. In 3E, if you were damaged while balancing, you had to make a check at the balance DC to remain standing. In coverting the skill into the larger "Acrobatics" tree, PF left in that rule under the balancing portion, but neglected to say that the "roll to avoid falling down" thing applied to being damaged while using acrobatics to balance only.

So, by strict RAW, it is currently beyond suicidal and into the just plain "nucking futs" territory to ever actually attempt to tumble to avoid an AoO. Ideally the devs would step in and fix this, but they seem to only care about using their free time to nerf monks lately, so don't hold your breath waiting.

[Evil Lincoln]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Ideally the devs would step in and fix this, but they seem to only care about using their free time to nerf monks lately, so don't hold your breath waiting.

You happened to read one dev say something on a single day on the forums, so you know what they're working on every day? Tone it down a bit man.

[Jiggy]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

So, by strict RAW, it is currently beyond suicidal and into the just plain "nucking futs" territory to ever actually attempt to tumble to avoid an AoO. Ideally the devs would step in and fix this, but they seem to only care about using their free time to nerf monks lately, so don't hold your breath waiting.

1. Applying that line to all uses of Acrobatics requires not knowing how paragraphs work in the english language. Remember that the "W" in "RAW" stands for "written", which by definition includes the rules of paragraph structure. To fail to abide by linguistic structure is to fail to follow "RAW".

2. Don't be a dick to the devs.

[Evil Lincoln]

Jiggy wrote:

2. Don't be a dick to the devs.

Or anyone, for that matter. Thems the rules.

[Reynard_the_fox]

Back to the topic at hand: Don't be afraid to multiclass. After 5th or 6th level, Rogues don't get much besides steady increase to sneak attack dice and eventually some decently sweet master talents.

I'm currently loving my splash of Alchemist (vivisectionist) - the ability to have an alchemical utility belt, Reduce Person and Dex-boost mutagen for huge boosts to to-hit, ac, and stealth, and a few fun formulae each day are all sweet. Or take 3-4 levels of Shadowdancer - Hide in Plain Sight is really awesome, and you get Improved Uncanny Dodge, a shadow companion flanking buddy, and some shadow illusion/conjuration trickiness.

You might reduce your damage output a bit, but in exchange for some really sweet abilities.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Ideally the devs would step in and fix this, but they seem to only care about using their free time to nerf monks lately, so don't hold your breath waiting.

You happened to read one dev say something on a single day on the forums, so you know what they're working on every day? Tone it down a bit man.

Not just one day. They've been making changes to nerf monks for a while now. Aside from the flurry issue, there was specifically exempting unarmed from Improved Natural Attack, how quickly they fixed Cloud Step, and nerfing the brass knuckles to not work with unarmed strike. Just to name a few. When they're so quick to nerf monks and not stuff that's actually troublesome, saying that nerfing monks is a past time for them is a fair statement.

[HappyDaze]

My one tip is do not be so quick to dump Strength. While Weapon Finesse is great and there are ways (Agile weapons) to add Dex to damage, too little Strength can really hurt if your encumbrance level goes above light. There are ways to carry more with magic, but if just your basic armor, a few weapons, and the clothes on your back are putting you over the load limit, you've dumped Strength too much.

[moon glum]

Ice Titan wrote:

. . Bleeding attack is not a good rogue talent. 1 bleed at level 1 will never happen because monsters die in one hit. 5 bleed at level 10 is meaningful but ignorable. 10 bleed at level 20 is pathetic. Avoid bleeding attack.

You are obviously a person who understands and digs rogues. However, I will say that the rogue in the campaign I DM kicks butt with bleeding attack. In the mid levels 2-10 it has worked great for him. The bonus to damage is much better than feats such as weapon specialization provide, and the damage can continue indefinitely. If they use an action to heal themselves, then you have just made them use up a standard action.

[cooperton]

You guys are lacking a rogue and a wizard... I humbly suggest an Arcane Trickster.

If you can get undeFEATable 11 allowed there's a feat in there that takes AT from "meh" to awesome. Allowing you to qualify for the PrC with 1 rogue level.

Alternatively the 3.5 PrC Unseen Seer combos beautifully, also allowing access to AT with 1 rogue level.

But all that requires the player to be ok w/ being more of a support character. Shining by making everyone else awesome, and throwing out a sneak attack spell occasionally.

YMMV

[Mike Schneider]

Thalin wrote:

If you are wanting a front-line rogue, skip two-weapon fighting. Longspear and strength it, you'll get more damage...

This is building a fighter, not a rogue.

A rogue is the person who wheedles info out of an NPC who won't be intimidated, gets the best deal on ship passage, knows when he's being BS'd 90% of the time, smuggles the half-orc's greatsword into the VIP sauna, UMDs anything in sight after about 6th, and solves the puzzle-trap which will otherwise kill everybody.

If you make a STR 18 melee "rogue" with mediocre INT and dumped CHA, I guarantee you that you will be unhappy with your character at about the point the fighters are buying their Gloves of Dueling. -- Unless, of course, you never viewed him as being much of a "rogue" anyway.

Reynard_the_fox wrote:

Back to the topic at hand: Don't be afraid to multiclass. After 5th or 6th level, Rogues don't get much besides steady increase to sneak attack dice and eventually some decently sweet master talents.

That's like saying fighters don't get much besides steady increases in hitpoints and eventually some decently sweet feats.

The ideal rogue multiclass is a 1st-level dip for better starting hitpoints, martial weapons and a selection of otherwise non-rogue skills (such as Survival).

cooperton wrote:

You guys are lacking a rogue and a wizard... I humbly suggest an Arcane Trickster.

Or, with less money than the fighters are spending on weapons and armor, you UMD a bunch of cheap wands while wearing a Circlet of Persuasion.

[Gavmania]

cooperton wrote:

You guys are lacking a rogue and a wizard... I humbly suggest an Arcane Trickster.

If you can get undeFEATable 11 allowed there's a feat in there that takes AT from "meh" to awesome. Allowing you to qualify for the PrC with 1 rogue level.

Alternatively the 3.5 PrC Unseen Seer combos beautifully, also allowing access to AT with 1 rogue level.

But all that requires the player to be ok w/ being more of a support character. Shining by making everyone else awesome, and throwing out a sneak attack spell occasionally.

YMMV

Not really necessary, unless that's your character concept. Want Battlefield control? Use Tanglefoot bags, flasks of oil, smokesticks and caltrops. Presto, a rogue with Battlefield control.

The thing about Rogues is; the build is only half the battle. You make an uber rogue build, but if you play him like a fighter he will die. Rogues are sneaky and tricksy; play them as sneaky and tricksy: Use anything you can get your hands on to control the situation. When combat starts, the fighters will fight, the casters will cast spells, what does the rogue do? Sneak attack is one option, but not if it puts them in the thick of things. Fall back on your battlefield control and everyone will thank you while you can take advantage of the ensuing chaos to get in some sneak attacks.

But that's not their only use. Got spotted while sneaking? drop some caltrops. They respond with ranged attacks? Drop some smokesticks. Anything that restricts your opponents vision and/or movement is your friend.

And all this without resorting to UMD or taking levels of Sorceror/Wizard. I'm not saying those options are bad - UMD can be a godsend providing you with options. Playing a Rogue is about having an answer for everything, controlling every situation to your advantage (and your allies).I have read numerous guides for pathfinder Rogues, and they are all about getting the right build. There is very little about getting the right playstyle: Playing a Rogue can be an absolute blast long before you resort to sneak attack - a player who just plays to get sneak attacks is missing the point of Rogues, since sneak attacks are only half the playstyle. The Rogue is about sowing chaos, disorintating the enemy - then hitting them hard (with sneak attack or whatever is appropriate). If you don't get that, you won't get much out of rogues.

I have been playing Rogues since D&D was first sold in the UK (1978 IIRC). This was before UMD and many other things were available, so

[Bigdaddyjug]

Despite the numerous people who will tell you to dual-wield light weapons, rogues are not built for two-weapon fighting. They don't have the feats or the BAB to make it work. If your friend insists on TWF, make sure he is prepared to miss, and miss a lot. If he doesn't want to be the human wind machine, he can either just fight with a single light weapon, two-hand a one-handed weapon, or just use a two-handed weapon.

If he decides on the two-handed weapon, I strongly recommend making a half-elf and taking the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait and getting access to an Elven curve blade. It's a d10 weapon that can be used with either a Str-based or Dex-based rogue and it's got a lot of flavor for a half-elven martial character. Other weapons with reach and/or bigger hit dice are also options, the the ECB just feels right.

Also, tell him not to be afraid to make a Str-based rogue. Yes, people think rogue and immediately think Dex-based, but a rogue can just as easily be a brutish thug as a cat burglar. Str-based and Dex-based rogues end up having about the same AC, Str-based do more damage, and Dex-based generally have slightly better skills. It's up to him to decide which route he wants to go with his rogue. Also, if he's not particularly worried about Trapfinding, the ninja alternate class should be considered. Most people agree ninja tricks are more powerful than rogue talents, and overall the ninja weapon proficiencies are better than the rogue's.

Make sure your friend learns all the ways he can get sneak attacks. Sneak attack damage is what allows the rogue to even come close to the damage that full BAB classes can do. Flanking is going to be the primary way to get sneak attack, and it also grants a bonus to hit for his flanking partner. Because of this, your friend should strongly consider getting menacing enchanted on his weapon or get a menacinh Amulet of Mighty Fists. This enchant doubles the flanking bonus from 2 to 4 for all allies flanking any target adjacent to the rogue, even if the rogue is not flanking that target.

My last piece of advice will probably be the most controversial, but after building a ninja for an AP and a rogue and a ninja for PFS play, it's one I strongly believe in. Tell your friend not to be afraid to dump Int. Even with a 7 Int, a rogue can still get up to 7 skill ranks per level, and with the condensed skill list PFRPG has rolled out, it's more than enough. Also, you're playing in an AP so you know exactly what skills your party-members are going to have. With very few exceptions, overlapping skills is completely redundant in an AP. Yes, it might be nice to have 2 or 3 party members with knowledge (xxxxx) to help identify monster weaknesses, but you almost certainly won't need multiple high diplomacy, disable device, or linguistics characters. This probably won't be as much of an issue for your friend since you guys are going with a 25 point buy, but it's still something to consider. I look at high Int vs low Int this way. High Int allows you to get a lot of skill ranks, but you're going to be worse at them on average because all of your other abilities are going to be lower. Low Int means you get less skill ranks, but the ones you have ranks in are going to be pretty high because all of your other abilities are higher. Yes, you probably won't take knowledge (local) or linguistics because you got a -2 modifier from your 7 Int, but chances are the 20 Int Wizard could do it better anyway.

Once your friend decides what kind of rogue he wants to play, tell him to let us know and I'd be glad to give him some more specific advice, as I'm sure a bunch of other people would be as well.