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Start of a new campaign (starting at first level) & I am going to encourage my friend to play a rogue to fill out the party. He normally plays a fighter or paladin type character but he wants to play a character that is a little different.
He tends to end up with underpowered characters, so I want to be able to give him a bit of good advice for Rogues and warn him about options that look good but pan out as being underpowered.
25 point buy, starting at level 1. We can start with one +1 magic item.
Any advice from the community?
I'm always a fan of two-weapon fighting with two light weapons so that you can get the most out of feats like weapon focus.
He needs to learn the flanking rules cold.
If he's used to playing full BAB classes, make sure he is mentally prepared to miss more often.
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Have him play a rogue for what rogues are and not to be just some crazy damage-dealing brute. I'm sure a lot of people will tell you to go 2H weapons to maximize damage, but IMO rogues are supposed to be about finesse and style.
If the party's fighter starts making fun of the rogue for not keeping up with melee damage then I would encourage the rogue to put points in bluff and make the fighter believe that of course he removed all the traps and it's safe to go now. Adventures aren't all just a series of battles.
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It just depends on what he imagines for the character.
TWF is good and fun. 2h fighting is fine as well. Both are equally viable. Ranged rogues, on the other hand, are not viable and are very depressing unless the person making the rogue is a very advanced player who knows the rules for sniping and what to do to get there in and out. There's a lot of cool options in the APG for rogues and he should probably flip through them.
A quick stream of consciousness guideline off of the top of my head:
. +1 to hit for a rogue is always the most valuable option. In this vein, a +5 short sword is better than a +1 holy flaming shocking short sword. Whiffing attacks sucks and you want to hit as much as humanly possible because that will always do more damage as a rogue than hitting sparsely but solidly
. Buy thieves tools. A lot of people know that a rogue without thieves tools takes a -2 on disable device checks. Not a lot of people catch that a rogue without thieves tools takes a -10 to pick locks.
. Rogue talents do not come easy. Every rogue talent should fit into your idea of the character, but also should be effects you cannot get anywhere else. Avoid skill bonuses for rogue talents. In example, effects you cannot get anywhere else: trapspotter, opportunist or slow reactions.
. . Bleeding attack is not a good rogue talent. 1 bleed at level 1 will never happen because monsters die in one hit. 5 bleed at level 10 is meaningful but ignorable. 10 bleed at level 20 is pathetic. Avoid bleeding attack.
. . Dispelling attack is wonderful if your GM likes bosses to pre-buff bonuses. The problem is that it requires you plan a great deal ahead-- almost 6 levels ahead-- to get it, and that the two pre-reqs to get into it are essentially trading up to two unique "cannot get anywhere else"-esque abilities for about 1125gp (the cost of one 0-level wand and one 1st-level wand) and the privilege to provoke while using them (you do not normally provoke when using a wand, but you provoke when you use SLA's). If you know your GM loves wizards, this is solid. If you start taking the pre-reqs and your GM stops throwing wizards at the party, you now have light 3/day. Be careful.
. Max out perception, acrobatics and disable device. I would normally just let you realize this, much like I would let someone playing a wizard realize they should probably take spells. I have played in groups where the rogue had no ranks in acrobatics and the wizard did not have any spells. Put ranks in these skills!
. Use magic device is one of the most useful skills for a rogue. Do not skimp on this skill until you can make the DCs reliably, and then stop. UMD DCs do not generally go past 33 for rogues, unless they start casting from scrolls.
. . Do not cast from scrolls, it is extremely difficult and your chances of mishapping are way too high to afford to cast. Mishaps are not good: you will not be amused when, for instance, you try to cast water breathing and instead be blessed with air breathing at the cost of an expensive scroll. When the corpse of your fighter is levitating and you're holding a blank raise dead scroll and your GM is smiling, you will feel bad. Do not cast from scrolls.
. Flank, flank, flank, flank. Communication is key for flanking; talk to the people at the table.
. Chain shirt > Mithral chain shirt > Celestial chainmail. Celestial chainmail has a max Dex of +8 and lets you fly once per day. In addition to that, it costs less than a +5 mithral chain shirt and gives the same armor bonus. (+5 mithral chain shirt = +5+4 = 9. Celestial chainmail = +3+6 = 9) The only downside is that you get a -2 ACP, and that is absolutely fine.
. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet
. Get used to being the "guy who walks in first" and make sure your party knows that you can very easily abandon this position the moment they feel like making fun of you for "needing healing again" or for "not seeing that trap"
. Brush up on disable device rules. One full-round to do a lock, two minutes to take 20 on a lock, 2d4 rounds for a trap.
. . Disable device is also code for "enable device" and can be used to be a complete jerk. Planning a getaway? 1d4 rounds and 4 rounds later and all of the guards' saddles fall off at the slightest tug and their battle wagon's wheel breaks off once it turns over once.
. Knowledges are useful. If you can get knowledges from traits, do it. A rogue with knowledge planes or knowledge nature is unexpected and helpful. A rogue with +1 to acrobatics is not as impressive as the rogue who can identify demons and their special abilities for the party.
. It is not at all expensive to carry around strange and useful weaponry. For instance, in addition to their main weaponry, a level 12 rogue should have:
- a +1 alchemical silver light mace* for bludgeoning, silver
- a cold-iron dagger
- a wooden stake
- an adamantine weapon
* alchemical silver's -1 to damage only applies to slashing and piercing weapons for some reason. Be the cool kid and let everyone know this rules loophole.
. . Holy water, alchemist's fire, a thunderstone, smokesticks, sunrods... all of these things are in your kit. See: Have a plan to kill everyone you meet. Edited: Have a plan to kill everyone and everything you could possibly ever meet.
. . . A wand of align weapon at level 10 will make outsiders very, very sad, and it will not cost you as much as buying a holy weapon or adding holy to your current weapon
. . . . When your GM accuses you of metagaming, point to your knowledge: religion/planes/nature/arcana and smile.
. For a rogue, 1d4+2 damage is not bad, especially because in the right conditions, you can make that 1d4+2+10d6 and 2 strength damage. The problem is that you want to always have the right conditions and much of the time will not. Much like the challenge in playing a fighter means you want to do as many full attacks as possible or a wizard wants to never take AoOs for casting spells, the challenge in playing a rogue is always ensuring that you have the correct conditions to sneak attack.
If the party's fighter starts making fun of the rogue for not keeping up with melee damage then I would encourage the rogue to put points in bluff and make the fighter believe that of course he removed all the traps and it's safe to go now. Adventures aren't all just a series of battles.
Style is not purposefully trying to kill the friendly party members with traps.
Style is disarming the trap, making it by over 10 and then re-arming the magic mouth so that instead of triggering the trap it sings the fighter a song about how much he sucks.
The moment the rogue in the party lies to me and tries to kill me is the moment my fighter starts trying to kill him. :P
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Thanks Titan, exactly the sort of stuff I was looking for. I have character sheets for the rest of the party so aside from the important roguish skills I can point him to skills that are not covered by the party, it just will take a while to sort through.
We have a fairly optimised monk(me), a barbarian, druid, bow ranger, and cleric(though the cleric will probably often be absent.
we have very loose flanking house rules (anything better then 90 degrees) so flanking is easier.
No sorcerer/wizard will mean UMD is more useful I guess...
Edit: is there anything amazing for rogues from the APG? If not I will not bring it up as it will just make building a character more complicated.
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Ice Titan has it down pretty well.
Grab a longspear and you'll have reach...just another angle to flank from.
Strength is not your key stat, but don't skimp entirely ...treasure gets heavy, after all.
I second the "make a plan to kill anything you could possibly meet" & the "get knowledge skills" advice.
Finally, archery is viable, but more difficult to achieve reliable sneak attack damage. You basically play as a regular archer guy, and it's icing on the cake when you land the SA.
...Edit: is there anything amazing for rogues from the APG? If not I will not bring it up as it will just make building a character more complicated.
Is a bear in the woods catholic? Of course there is! :)
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Edit: is there anything amazing for rogues from the APG? If not I will not bring it up as it will just make building a character more complicated.
A lot of rogue talents. Some good rogue archetypes, some bad ones. The archetypes need to be evaluated on a case-by-case, but the rogue talents which are great I may as well go over....
Assault leader - great, because giving the guy whose trips provoke an attack of opportunity an attack of opportunity (try saying that five times fast) is awesome
Peerless maneuver - rolling twice for acrobatics is great, but situational. I still think it's worthwhile, especially since you can use it 1/day for every 5 levels you have.
Distracting attack - amazing for the monk if he's taking medusa's wrath. he can sneak, forgo damage and then make the person he sneaked flat-footed to the monk... meaning more medusa's wrath. And with opportunist, that means more chances to use opportunist and get SA anyways.
Powerful Sneak + Deadly Sneak - two rogue talents to take a -2 on attacks and treat all SA dice that roll 1 or 2 as 3 is decent but not excellent for the rogue who isn't TWFing. For the TWF rogue, another -2 on top of everything is a bit overkill, and could make your SA hit harder but you hit less, which is the antithesis of what your main goal is
Positioning Attack - sneak attack and then move 30ft without provoking is almost necessary later in the game if you plan on taking on more than a basketfull of colossal monsters. if you don't see yourself fighting more than one great wyrm, passable.
Entanglement of blades - excellent. If you hit someone with SA, it prevents people from five-foot stepping out of flank, and can prevent people from five-foot stepping out of threatened areas. hit someone with this, then crippling strike them until they're unconcious. they can't move and they'll wish they could.
Redirect attack - 1/day get out of crit free card. If you get hit, you can redirect it to someone adjacent. It makes the baddie re-roll to hit the person you swing against, which sucks if you think of this being only used against bad guys, but is awesome if you get 20'd on an AoO while running in and don't want to die so you deflect it onto your, for instance, paladin, who probably has more HP than you do.
and finally
Hunter's Surprise- Once per day, you can designate someone as your #$%#! and you can SA them until the end of your turn. so bleeding awesome. Alone in the back and the wizard teleports to you? ... He has stoneskin up and is confident you can't harm him with your normal strikes? Hunter's surprise and turn him into paste. Surprise!
Dude,
If your mate is willing to look at the following build he'll love it.
I think your build has just inspired me to make a rogue guide for use by the paizo forums.
Powerful Sneak + Deadly Sneak - two rogue talents to take a -2 on attacks and treat all SA dice that roll 1 or 2 as 3 is decent but not excellent for the rogue who isn't TWFing. For the TWF rogue, another -2 on top of everything is a bit overkill, and could make your SA hit harder but you hit less, which is the antithesis of what your main goal is
Powerful Sneak + Deadly Sneak is the definition of a "common pitfall for rogues." Powerful Sneak is absolutely horrendous. It increases the average damage from sneak attack die from 3.5 to 3.667 for a -2 penalty on all attacks. At level 11, this means you take that -2 penalty for all attacks for roughly 1 extra damage on all landed sneak attacks. Absolutely pitiful. You'll actually be doing less damage than normal because you will be hitting less.
Now Deadly Sneak actually gives some benefit increasing your damage on sneak attacks that hit by roughly .5 per sneak attack die. But you are still taking a -2 penalty to all your attacks when you use it.
Still, this pitiful amount of extra damage isn't worth a regular and an advanced rogue talent.
Hunter's Surprise- Once per day, you can designate someone as your #$%#! and you can SA them until the end of your turn. so bleeding awesome. Alone in the back and the wizard teleports to you? ... He has stoneskin up and is confident you can't harm him with your normal strikes? Hunter's surprise and turn him into paste. Surprise!
Even better, this lasts until the end of your next turn. So you get two free full rounds of sneak attacking without having to do anything special. Situational, but can be very, very nice in a jam.
I'm willing to bet this post will be followed by many more saying I don't know how to play the game but I have to say this:
UMD - Never had it, never used it, never needed it.
And as for some of the previous posts here, you'll have to determine what level of munchkinism you want your players to have.
Half-elf Ancestral weapon- Falcatta. Longswords with an extra crit multiplier are good.
Interesting build there Ardenup, thanks. Hierloom Weapon is a great trait, flavourful and useful for any martial class (except the monk) I'll definitely be suggesting that one.
The number one piece of advise I give to anyone playing a rogue with regards to combat (which seems to be your main concern) is figure out how you are going to do sneak attack.
There are lots of ways to catch someone flat-footed, flanked or denied their dexterity bonus. Pick 1 or a couple of ways you are going to do it and then make sure that you can do it consistantly.
Know ahead of time what your strategy is and how you are going to achieve it. It's especially important to have a party that is ready to work with you and help make sure your strategy works. The rogue is very much a team player.
One good idea for a rogue is to pick melee or ranged. It helps narrow down your choices on tactics making it easy to pick the one you like. For melee I recommend paired daggers, I explained why in another thread. For ranged bows and crossbows are good, but if you are willing to spend the money thrown weapons can be awesome. You can sneak attack with alchemist fire, holy water and acid flasks.
I had the party in a huge anti-magic field getting attack by a frost worm. The rogue is horrific damage when she started throwing multiple flasks of alchemist fire with sneak attack.
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Don't forget to read the rules on Readying an Action. Doing so is a great way to get additional sneak attacks. If you can't quite get into sneak attack position, you can move across from where an ally can be later in the turn. Then ready an action to "attack this monster as soon as he's flanked" and wait for the Fighter (or whoever) to step into position.
Make the trigger for your readied action generic (e.g. "attack this monster as soon as he is flanked by myself and an ally", vs. "attack this monster as soon as I am flanking him with Bob the Fighter"). That way, if Bob gets held up somehow, someone else can step into flanking and cause your action to go off, rather than wasting it.
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<snip> to spend the money thrown weapons can be awesome. You can sneak attack with alchemist fire, holy water and acid flasks.
I had the party in a huge anti-magic field getting attack by a frost worm. The rogue is horrific damage when she started throwing multiple flasks of alchemist fire with sneak attack.
while true in 3.5ed, not so in PF.
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
still...thrown weapons can be effective (TWF daggers, Quickdraw, potentially throw as many knives as you have melee attacks) under the right circumstances.
again, ranged SA is much more difficult to achieve on a regular basis than melee SA
Was that Directed at me?
My views may be skewed but I don't tend to think something is munchkin unless your using alot of cheesy rules and exploiting RAW over RAI.The OP did say his mate tends to create chars that struggle...
I simply provided an all PF build (with ONE 3.5 feat) that is very reliable- certainly it's damage is not OMG Overpowered.But you may not have meant me....
PS I agree about the UMD- nice to have but often wholely uneccesary
My post wasn't directed at anyone. Through many many posts in these forums I've seen as many people post every possible way to squeeze every drop of damage they can out of a build. If that's the way you play then more power to you. Everyone has their idea of what's fun and if you're having fun then you're playing the game right.
IMO, a rogue is supposed to be a support class. Just about every post here is how to maximize the amount of damage a rogue does, not much about how to have fun playing a rogue. If the party is only going to be in a series of encounters with nothing in between then maximizing damage is the way you want to go. And if that is the OP intent then any of my ramblings can be discounted.
If you want to give your rogue a bit more utility and survivability, give him a couple levels of druid or cleric. You'll get a decent bonus to his two low saves and the ability to use divine items without tying up skill points.
People can use rogues in multiple ways. No one way is 'supposed' to be over another.All that said, the OP said that the player was used to playing melee hitters, so I can understand people suggesting ways for the rogue to compare.
That's why I said it's my opinion, I wasn't trying to say that is the only way to play a rogue.
What I'm trying to say is, if you want him to be a melee rogue and stay on par with the other heavy hitters then build him that way. If you want him to provide support in other areas then you may not be able to.
Ask yourself why you want your friend to play a rogue. Is it just to have an alternate way to deal damage? Or is it to have a range of skills and abilities that other classes don't have?
The more different ideas the better. I once played a soldier type rogue and suffered (died!) from a lack of hit points so I like MordredofFairy Dwarf build personally. I don't know if it would appeal to my friend but it is interesting. :)
I wizard in the party would be nice but it might be a bit to much book keeping for a busy guy with a young family. The party doesn't have tons of knowledge skills or social skills, and the DM is promising that that there will be more then just combat encounters so the high # of skills the rogue gets will definitely help the party.
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Ok, then here are a few tips for you.
1. FLANK, FLANK, FLANK- Flanking is a rogues best friend in combat.
2. Hit is important to rogues so concentrate on feats that increase your hit chance. (Example: Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus)
3. Dex is a rogues best stat with Int being a close second
4. Teamwork Feats from the Adv. Player's Guide are good feats for the rogue and others in a party to have (Outflank, Precise Strike are just a few good choices for rogue)
5. Sneak Attack is where the rogues damage comes from so don't focus to much on str, don't ignore it but it isn't quite as important as for a fighter.
6. Use rogue talents to good affect
7. Important skills to keep maxed (Perception, Acrobatics, and Disable device) Knowledge skills could be useful since no wizard in party (Knowledge History, Local, Planes, and Religion) So high Int is important.
8. Where the rogue shines is in the little area's like disable traps and as a scout. They are designed to support, normally.
9. Now if you know your DM isn't going to use traps then you may want to look at Swashbuckler in the Advanced Player's Guide as a Archtype choice at 1st level page pg 135, if GM does use traps then he should forgo this option but could still use some of the rogue talent options offered on pg 130-132
10. Remember to have fun you can get into all kinds of mischief with a rogue where it would be a lot more difficult to do as a normal character.
Below is just a general feat progression that your friend could use as a base of comparison.
Example of a General Rogue progression (Feats):
Level Feat Rogue Talent
1st 0 Weapon Finesse
2nd 1 Rogue Talent (Weapon Focus) Weapon Training
3rd 2 Precise Strike
4th 3 Rogue Talent (Combat Expertise) Combat Trick
5th 3 Improved Faint
6th 4 Rogue Talent Detect Magic Minor Magic
7th 5 Outflank
8th 6/1 Rogue Talent True Strike Major Magic
9th 6/1 Dastardly Finish
10th 7/2 Rogue Talent Improved Evasion
11th 8/3 Lighting Reflexes
12th 9/4 Rogue Talent Opportunist
I would generally suggest the following races: Human (Extra feat at 1st level), Elf (+2 Dex & Int but -2 con), 1/2 Elf (+2 to one stat and good option if going to multi-class), Halfling (+2 Dex & Chr, -2 Str). Could also choose Gnome to be a bit different (+2 Chr & Con, -2 Str)
*Note: Small creatures make good rogues and they can be fun. Also in Adv. Player's Guide there are some fun feats that could be chosen that small rogues could use to good affect.
General Stats (Before racial bonuses): These can be adjusted but this will give you a starting point
Str: 14 (5) +2
Dex: 16 (10) +3
Con: 13 (3) +1
Int: 13 (3) +1
Wis: 12 (2) +1
Chr: 12 (2) +1
Magic Item choice: First thought would be to take a weapon but you may want to see if the GM would allow Mithral Chain Shirt cost is 1,100 in Core book and it is considered light armor with no armor check penalty and allows Dex bonus +6 page 446. Otherwise take a +1 weapon of choice.
Hope this helps a little.
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I've actually been contemplating on doing a mixed dex-single weapon character build for a while now. The Ancestral Weapons(Arms?) trait for the half-elf is kind of integral for this character and really the thing that inspired its conception as well.
Basically, make a dex-based half-elf rogue with an ancestral elven curved blade and rely on Power Attack to deal most of your damage. Like the spiked chain, elven curved blade is one of the few weapons in the book that is both two-handed and finesseable. You don't need to be a CharOper to know that PA gives higher returns with a two-handed weapon and, believe me, you are taking a penalty to hit so the character needs higher returns. Starting with the sword also gives you a decent damage die at the start, which is really all you need for lvls 1-2.
Dexterity is a great stat to concentrate on, as has already been documented here by people vastly more knowledgeable than me, since it benefits both your defense and skills. It's basically your rogue's "allstat", the one priority you have. I think it is also one of the major boni that a rogue has over other character classes - MAD is not really an issue unless you feel like doing everything, which is a common pitfall people jump in before realizing that Errol Flynn used Elite Array, hawhaw. Dex gives, get this, higher ac, ensures success with your trademark skills(Acrobatics, Disable Device, Stealth, Escape Artist), boosts your REF save, ups your CMD and gives a boost to your attack with Finesse. That's quite a stat there.
With this in mind, I've tended to stat up rogues with a high DEX and lower int, since the latter "only" gives skill points and, unless you consider trying the few rogue talents that are based on it, is a bit of a waste since rogues already dominate with their massive skill point pool.
So, since I'm rambling I'll condense the rest. Have a starting strength of 13 for Power Attack then ensure your stat priorities follow DEX>CON>INT>CHA>WIS. By third level, pick up Power Attack, Wpn Finesse and maybe Weapon Focus if you are the Tim Gunn type and worried. Furious Focus from APG helps this character lots and is a decent investment of a rogue talent as well. With that in mind, the Swashbuckler archetype is a fairly good idea for our half-elf friend here, but a vanilla rogue doesn't really lose anything against it.
If you took Furious and Weapon Focus and have a Dex of 17 or 18, by 5th level you'll have around +7 to hit with Power Attack and 1d10+4+3d6 damage when flanking. Fair enough, I'd say.
I want to be able to give him a bit of good advice for Rogues and warn him about options that look good but pan out as being underpowered.
Any advice from the community?
I've got a few ideas, having played a rogue from 1-16 before...
1) Do NOT assume that DEX is all powerful. Some people shove their Dex to 20, take weapon finesse, and figure that they are done. Then, they find out that a 10 con means no hit points and no fort save. Death is usually close behind.
2) Unlike the fighter, the rogue NEEDS to change weapons to stay effective. +1 to the ideas above.
3) If you're moving into melee regularly, you need a Con of 14+.
4) You don't HAVE to use a rapier. Nothing wrong with a half-orc rogue with a greataxe. Rogues can benefit from a level or two of another class, like barbarian, ranger, or fighter.
5) At low levels, the skill bonus is bigger from good base state. At high levels, the number of skill points you have is mostly INT, and the bonuses are small change.
IMHO, the most damaging rogue is the one I made for my wive.
She is a Human Rogue with a Scorpion Whip, great trip, whirlwind attack and a godly ac (esp. vs. AoO) that allows my Str 26 great weapon Barbarian/Fighter, the Paladin on her awakened heavy warhorse and the bearshaped Druid complete with greatcat companion to make attacks of opportunity by tripping pretty much everything with legs in 15' and getting the occasional sneak in herself.
No build that focusses on the rogue doing the big damage can archieve that.
Hey I just helped put together one kick-assed halfling rogue. Thanks for all the advice!
Hey I just helped put together one kick-assed halfling rogue. Thanks for all the advice!
I hope you mean he kicks ass, not that he's been getting his ass kicked.
Glad I could help! If I did help.
Hey I just helped put together one kick-assed halfling rogue. Thanks for all the advice!I hope you mean he kicks ass, not that he's been getting his ass kicked.
Glad I could help! If I did help.
Right kick-ass. :P
All the posts helped me understand the rogue better so I could give sound advice. I didn't hand my friend a build, he made the character at the table and I'm video-conferencing in so an imperfect connection mean I can could reasonably give him a piece of advice here and there.
Pointing him to finesse and hierloom Weapon means he has the highest to-hit in the party right now. Using the free +1 item to get mithral chainmail gives him the best AC. And trap-finding as the first rogue talent was a sound pick.
Solid start I think. And his wheezing, sleazy over-the-top Irish con-man (con-halfling) role-playing is hilarious.
Thanks again.
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Ice +1
Mer +1
Ice +1
Some great rogue advice
There are some great rogue talents and some poor ones out there. I don't like most of the rogue talents that are once a day the exception of the defensive that may allow your rogue to live another day. I think 2 of the better advanced rogue talents are dispelling attack and oppurtunist.
Ice and Mer put in some good advice. Flank flank flank... Ranged sneak attacks are bit harder...
a list of feat selections I posted for someone trying to make a longspear rogue.
1: Combat Expertise
2 (talent): Weapon Training (Long Spear)
3: Gang-Up
4 (talent): Minor Magic (0) spell detect magic...
5: Combat Reflexes
6 (talent): Major Magic (1) Enlarge Person
7: Dodge
8 (talent): Bleeding Strike
9: Mobility
10 (advanced talent): Dispelling Attack
11: Combat Patrol
12 (advanced talent): Oppurtunist.
I am not sure about combat patrol, but dodge and mobility were in his original build.
Gang Up is a great feat I would consider a must have for rogues with reach weapons, it allows you to be considered flanking if two allies are adjacent to the targeted creature regardless of your position.
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A lot of good advice here already...
If you plan on taking the Minor Magic Rogue Talent, I suggest Acid Splash (no SR). Ranged touch attack that will deal Sneak Attack damage in the first round of combat (assuming you go first). Decent ranged option if your enemy is unaware. If you have a feat to burn at higher lever, you can even quicken it with Quicken Spell-like ability.
I'd say avoid Precise Strike, but Outflank is amazing if you have a team to support it. Use a keen rapier or burn a feat at 11th level and anyone who likes to hit in melee will be more than glad to flank with you. Take Opportunist Rogue Talent for insane chain hits.
You get that Use Magic Device high enough and you become the answer-man. I have a half-elf who used the bonus Skill Focus feat in UMD. Turned out pretty well when I could cast a Breath of Life on a dead ally with virtually no chance of failure. Potion of Greater Invisibility + Wand of any ray spell = Pathfinder version of a Spellwarp Sniper.
If your friend is used to playing melee-types, you can certainly work toward some overlap with a rogue. Toughness and favored class bonus to HP helps a lot here.
My time-tested advice:
-If you aren't Sneak Attacking, do something else with your action. UMD, Aid Another, tactical positioning, etc.
-Make use of Readied actions. Like when your barbarian gets into a flanking position.
-Be bold. Go big or go home. Get in there using your Acrobatics and/or feats. This will often put you in the center of danger. Be bold. Your team will get there soon. It's typically much easier for you to get into the super-important flanking position than them.
-Be good at what you do, but don't try to do everything. For this rogue, it may mean allowing the monk to be the super-stealthy one, while the rogue gets to be the "face."
-Don't discount UMD. Everybody needs some backup sometimes. Cleric can't get to your downed ally? No worries, rogue can do it. Wizard needs help containing mobs of baddies? Check. This goes in line with the previously stated advice of "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." This is seriously good advice.
The moment the rogue in the party lies to me and tries to kill me is the moment my fighter starts trying to kill him. :P
+1
I don't expect this to be a problem for the original poster's group, but it's worth saying anyway. Playing a rogue does not mean you can be a jerk.
I don't care if you're playing a rogue, a druid, or a shiny paladin, don't attack party members, don't cheat party members out of loot, don't steal from party members, don't trick party members into being damaged by traps . . . I've played with more than enough rogues who think this is appropriate behavior.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Holy necro, Batman! You might get more responses if you start a fresh thread, so people don't think it's a continuation of an old, long thread they don't want to catch up on.
I've been curious about the knife master... except if I did it, I'd run a half-orc and carry oils of darkness and deeper darkness. Any time I fight sighted opponents in normal or dim light, I use the appropriate oil to drop the light level exactly to darkness.
Anyone without darkvision is effectively blinded, making them easy to hit and enabling my sneak attacks. But since I have darkvision, I'm unaffected.
Let the stabbing commence.
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Holy necro, Batman! You might get more responses if you start a fresh thread, so people don't think it's a continuation of an old, long thread they don't want to catch up on.
I've been curious about the knife master... except if I did it, I'd run a half-orc and carry oils of darkness and deeper darkness. Any time I fight sighted opponents in normal or dim light, I use the appropriate oil to drop the light level exactly to darkness.
Anyone without darkvision is effectively blinded, making them easy to hit and enabling my sneak attacks. But since I have darkvision, I'm unaffected.
Let the stabbing commence.
I'd take dwarf over half-orc for this trick (fills in all the major holes in rogue, i.e., poor saves, hitpoints, etc, and is a race with stone-cunning).
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+1 on don't let your Con go below 14 if you want to get into melee. 10 Con + D8 hit die + behind all the monsters = dead rogue, or at least one that has to duck out of combat a lot.
A word of advice: Don't use two-weapon fighting. It lowers your to-hit, spreads your wealth around, and unlike fighters that can just keep 5' stepping and trading blows, you're probably not going to be able to get a lot of full attack sneak attacks on the enemy. Spring Attack is a more entertaining route, anyway, especially if you can buff your stealth to the roof (mine is +25 at level 8) and convince your DM to let you make checks if you move back behind cover.
If you go the high dex route, get an Agile weapon posthaste. It's better than adding another sneak attack die. Also, the Shadow enchantment on armor (+3750 for +5 stealth) is quite nice.
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Biggest pitfall: Trying to make the rogue a fighter. They cannot, and never will be, a fighter.
There's no point in letting the squishy on the front line; even if it gets you sneak attack slightly more often. Pull out that bow and shoot it.
Human Archer Rogue
Str: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Chr: 12
Start with +1 Str: 14 bow (heirloom weaponed with +2 trip for tripping
PBS, Precise. 3rd - rapid 4th -Deadly. I'd actually take the auto-trap detect @ 2, if you're going to be a rogue in-combat traps are the biggest threat, and this will just save parties trouble in the long run (forgetting to search@ certain points).
So right out of the gates, you're +6 to hit for d8+3 +d6 (potential); not shabby (from 30 feet). You avoid front line, you sneak around a lot.
And more importantly, you're a diplomat, a scout. For a rogue to look at all successful, you need to look at those 10 points of skills and do things out of combat; their numbers in combat will NEVER be good.
I will contradict some of the stuff here. I think people are over valuing Acrobatics. It is not longer the "get out of AOOs free" card that it once was, and failure of a tumble check on the battlefield now leaves you pretty well boned (tagged and prone). This is not to say you should skip it, but you have to be very prudent when using it, and adapting for other ways in which to achieve sneak attacks is probably a better idea. I highly recommend the Gang Up feat. As long as you have 2 other front liners, you will be sneak attacking all the time.
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If you are wanting a front-line rogue, skip two-weapon fighting. Longspear and strength it, you'll get more damage, and from your dex get a lot of AOOs. Optionally, upgrade to a Luceren Hammer as a half-elf (it's like weapon specialization). Trip builds work great here
The damage from your AOO reach is going to be a much better detterant than your AC, and knocking them prone is nice too
Half-elf rogue wielding +1 Horsechopper (heirloom trip)
Str: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Chr: 7
Feat: 1) Combat Reflexes 2) Weapon Focus 3) Improved Trip 4) Gang Up 5) Power Attack 7) Whatever 9) Imp. Trip
Pretty straightforward; at 3 you'll have a +12 trip (+2 feats +2 BAB +4 Str +2 heirloom +1 weapon +1 Focus). for most things at that level. You'll swing for d10+6 @ +7 to hit; and have 4 AOOs per round. Also, 10 skill points per level and some elven bonuses. Also, good Rogue stats, and with a helpful party will get regular sneak attack damage.
failure of a tumble check on the battlefield now leaves you pretty well boned (tagged and prone).I beg your pardon?
One of the local GMs has been pushing this position.
I just did some searching and the closest to his position I can find is:
James Jacobs (Creative Director) Mar 26, 2010, 04:02 PM
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James Jacobs
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5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
Krisam wrote:
William Sinclair wrote:
Okay, this thread issue continues to come up in my game. Could we get an official call on this?
If a player/npc fails an Acrobatics (tumble) check when moving through an opponents square, are they stopped, or do they get through suffering an AoO?
I would also like an official call on this.
If you fail an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's square, you stop in the square you were left to make the attempt to go through that creature's square and your movement for that turn ends. If that square is occupied (say, you ran through three wererats in a narrow tunnel only to fail on the fourth), you fall prone in that square.
If you have any more move actions left in a turn, you could try again, of course.
Which obviously isn't quite what I stated. Thus I'm wrong. However I continue to posit that tumbling isn't nearly what it was used to be, so relying on it for your damage is probably foolish.
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With 10 skillpoints, Acrobatics is still high on my list. I'd actually go:
Perception, Bluff, Disable Device, Stealth, Survival, Acrobatics, Knowledge: Local
as my "this is what a rogue is meant to do" kit. Even with limited Combat utility, Acro is useful enough that it's Going to be rolled more often than stealth, and @ 1st level a +7 gives you decent odds vs most opponents (and it is mostly free).
With 10 skillpoints, Acrobatics is still high on my list. I'd actually go:
Perception, Bluff, Disable Device, Stealth, Survival, Acrobatics, Knowledge: Local
as my "this is what a rogue is meant to do" kit. Even with limited Combat utility, Acro is useful enough that it's Going to be rolled more often than stealth, and @ 1st level a +7 gives you decent odds vs most opponents (and it is mostly free).
Yes, I wouldn't skip acrobatics, certainly. However I will again state, that it shouldn't be counted on to put you in position to be a damage dealer. This is especially true at higher levels when CMDs skyrocket and tumble ends up being a wasted action. Personally I think my priorities on skills would be:
Perception, Disable Device, Stealth, Bluff, Diplomacy, Acrobatics, Sense Motive, Knowledge(multiples).
I often find that rogues will have to be the facemen since nobody can hold the job (maybe cleric or paladin if present). Survival isn't even vaguely a rogue skill IMO since even fighters can take that skill (and generally do since it's a good one from a generally lackluster list).
Acrobatics is for special situations. Normally the one with the highest AC and HP goes into flanking position, eventually eating an AoO that doesn´t hurt so much or with some reposition feat. This is surely not the rogue, but the fighter/paladin/my little wild pony (the class formerly known as barbarian).
Gang up requires combat expertise, what is good to have for a melee rogue in some situations. But be sure your teammates understand how to put that to use. Best have them use reach wepaons too, and if just to threaten.
AoO´s with gang up are pretty good. Especially if someone has greater trip or something similar it adds up.