I guess the most interesting thing on this thread is that if HeroForge Software LLC is not distributing a licensed version of the PF rules, presumably the volunteer HF community can now move forwards on this...
Also, FWIW, I think paid-for software is probably overpriced, but they cater to a market that is disposable income-rich but time-poor (those two characteristics may well be related) and so succeed on that basis.
I certainly don't think anyone can say "It's too expensive, and therefore cheating/rubbish." But you can say "It's too expensive for me."
The market will ultimately decide what is or isn't too expensive. Anything else is just pure opinion.
"Monkey" and the like is just not a good thing to use when trying to make a point, but guess it does not work for you as you will continue to do it "your" way and ridicule others to make "your" point right.
I congratulate you on having no idea what I was talking about.
I guess the most interesting thing on this thread is that if HeroForge Software LLC is not distributing a licensed version of the PF rules, presumably the volunteer HF community can now move forwards on this...
Also, FWIW, I think paid-for software is probably overpriced, but they cater to a market that is disposable income-rich but time-poor (those two characteristics may well be related) and so succeed on that basis.
I certainly don't think anyone can say "It's too expensive, and therefore cheating/rubbish." But you can say "It's too expensive for me."
The market will ultimately decide what is or isn't too expensive. Anything else is just pure opinion.
We have a winner. The market will determine if it is too expensive or not. When I was a young student, spending $50 or so on something like this would have seemed an extravagance, Now, 20-some years into a professional career, it doesn't seem that bad. Even within the same income level, personal preferences and priorities can vary. for example, I personally think spending $80K on a new Beamer is a ridiculous extravagance when my used Hyundai will get me where I want to go just as well. Some of my peers and neighbours obviously disagree. The market will determine if they have the program priced too high or not for the majority of people.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So back to the topic at hand.
I can't believe I'm going to say this but I agree with Cartigan. The Hero Labs software has a fantastic interface and is very user friendly and as much as I dislike the output, it is a good program, but when you consider that your Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and APG cost around $30 if you buy them as PDFs, Hero Labs costs you roughly $50 for those same products. That's roughly a 66% markup on a product you need to own to use the software in the first place. Saying that you can't compare the PDF cost with the software cost is disingenuous; you can compare the two only because one is a prerequisite for the other.
Core Rules, APs, AP guides, GMG, Bestiary, APG for 'roughly' $50.
I've bought Herolab and been impressed with the product, feedback *and* support. I'm looking at buying M&M 3rd when it comes out, so I'll be paying for that as well. I don't even want to try to calculate the man hours it would take for me to feed all that information into Herolab by myself, so I eagerly bought the Bestiary and the APG.
Also, with Pathfinder being Open Content, you *can* compare the two, the OGL material is just a click away, thanks to the work the folks who maintain the PRD. (speaking of which, does the PRD have a tip jar?)
Slanky, you've indicated what you're *not* willing to pay for software. May I ask what you *are* willing to pay?
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Okay, so here is the cost breakdown.
PDF/HL
Core Rulebook:$9.99/$29.99
Advanced Players Guide:$9.99/$9.99
Bestiary:$9.99/$14.99
Total:$29.97/$54.97
Upcoming
3 Players Companion Races (Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes):$22.97/$4.99
3 Players Companion Races (Orcs, Halflings, Humans):$23.97/$4.99
3 Player Companion Regions (Osirion, Taldor, Qadira):$22.97/$4.99
3 Player Companion Regions (Cheliax, Andoran, Sargava):$23.97/$4.99
Total:$93.88/$19.96
They say on their website that future releases will be done and priced similarily. i.e.-3 Player Companions or Campaign Setting books = $4.99 (remember these are flavor heavy and crunch light) and Core books, i.e.-Bestiary's = $14.99
Amount you're getting? The Player Companion Races have about (orcs - 23 traits, 11 feats, 6 spells; dwarves - 24 traits, 5 feats, 15 spells, 1 weapon) and the Player Companion Regions have about (Qadira - 4 feats, 9 trait, 1 spell, 1 prestige class, 1 magic item, 1 special material, 1 template; Andoran - 10 traits, 4 feats, 1 prestige class, 4 magic items, 4 spells). Maybe someone can enlighten me with how much you get from the core book package for comparison.
There is not any hint of the Adventurers Armory, which would be wanted in my opinion.
Okay, so that's the math all written out. Phew! And yes I neglected the AP's, AP guides and GMG because they contain even less crunch than the Player Companions. This alone is the biggest flaw in comparing prices. You have to look at what you are getting crunch wise, not just that this book costs this much vs HL costs this much.
Now I like HeroLab, and am trying to justify purchasing it. Since I'm beginning the Kingmaker campaign, I can see how this tool will be useful for creating NPCs. I love Pathfinder and would play at least once a week if I had a consistent group (I live in a location of the country that makes that difficult). I don't use maptools or d20pro, even though I would like to and play online, but time is always an issue, especially with a family. I certainly understand those who don't have the funds to buy the program, I've been there. As I've said before, for me it really comes down to justifying the purchase. Will I use it enough to justify it? And can I convince my wife that another $59.94 towards gaming isn't too much. :) (I don't desire to have the bestiary.)
Worth pointing out that if you buy the Hero Labs disk from the Paizo store, you get the Pathfinder Advantage 15% discount? Brings the price for the main program and ruleset down to $25.49.
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I'd like to clear a misconception about HeroLab's pricing. When you first purchase the product, you pay $29..99. This includes the core data package for your choice of game system. If you chose to add on additional game systems, the core data packages for those systems cost $20.00. Supplemental add-on data packages are priced according to their content.
Since the PFRPG core data package covers the Core Rules, several APs, the associated AP Guides, and the GMG, it's hard to argue that the $30 price tag isn't worth it. Especially since it's only a $20 price tag if you already own the program.
The only add-on that costs more than the PDF is the Bestiary, $14.99. And to me, that's understandable...that book is pure concentrated crunch. Entering in the Bestiary manually to either HeroLab or another similar program/spreadsheet would almost certainly take a single person dozens upon dozens of hours.
Which brings me to my next point. If you DO have the time to kill and a deathly allargy to giving LoneWolf any money beyond the initial $30, you can enter in the information from the APG, Bestiary, and any currently existing or future supplements manually, with the only cost being of your own time. It's your choice. I personally would rather pay $25 for the Bestiary and APG and let LoneWolf do the tedious data-entry work, but that's a matter of personal choice.
There's also the fact that HeroLab works as an in-game play aid, and the fact that you can export your character data to d20Pro. PCs are quickly becoming one of the most-used aids in tabletop gaming, and pretty much necessary for long-distance gaming (real-time, notn PbP).
EDIT: Also, I meant to point out that at some PFRPG sites, you can download HeroLab export files where you can import data. So you can maybe even find 3PP material without having to import it yourself. I haven't yet seen any Bestiary or APG files that claim to be anywhere near complete, but I haven't been actively hunting them either. The advantage that the HeroLab add-on would have over these export files would be that LoneWolf updates their files with errata, which you can download automatically. Fan-built export files may or may not be updated, but even if they are, you'll need to find them again to download.
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Quick note: the GMG is NOT crunch lite, there are hundreds of NPCs in the back. Ditto for the NPC Guide, which as I quoted above is also included (or soon will be) in the base price of the core rules.
NPC Guide PDF = $13.99
GMG PDF = $9.99
Core Rulebook PDF = $9.99
That's $33.97 worth of PDF content included in the $29.99 base HeroLab program.
+$9.99 APG PDF/+$9.99 APG add-on
+$9.99 Bestiary PDF/+$14.99 Bestiary add-on
=
$53.95 in PDFs vs $54.97 in HeroLab Core + 2 data add-ons.
OMG!!!!1!!eleven!! A $1.02 rip-off!!
And that's if you equate the value of a program with that of a static PDF, which IMO is a flawed comparison. And also if you feel the price of adding the free Pathfinder Society Organized Play content, the Character Traits PDF, and all the AP player's guides is zero. Which I don't.
In any case, I fail to see the "ripping people off" angle, even when used as hyperbole.
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Quick note: the GMG is NOT crunch lite, there are hundreds of NPCs in the back. Ditto for the NPC Guide, which as I quoted above is also included (or soon will be) in the base price of the core rules.
Are these sample NPCs included? My impression was that they were not, which would make the GMG and NPC Guide, "lite".
EDIT: Just went to the HeroLab page and couldn't find any mention of the GMG or NPC Faction Guide. If it is there I missed it.And that's if you equate the value of a program with that of a static PDF, which IMO is a flawed comparison. And also if you feel the price of adding the free Pathfinder Society Organized Play content, the Character Traits PDF, and all the AP player's guides is zero. Which I don't.
As I stated before,
This alone is the biggest flaw in comparing prices. You have to look at what you are getting crunch wise, not just that this book costs this much vs HL costs this much.
In any case, I fail to see the "ripping people off" angle, even when used as hyperbole.
Not sure if this is aimed at me, but I don't believe I said they were "ripping people off". For some, the price tag is too steep. If you are playing in Pathfinder Society (PFS), you must own a copy of the book in order to use the feat/trait/spell/etc, that it is in. Therefore requiring you to double-up on purchases. Since HeroLab is officially licensed by Paizo, maybe we could get it allowed without having to purchase the books?
I do view HeroLab's Chargen, and any software that is a character generator, as a want, and not a need to play. Everyone's view/threshold of what is a "rip-off" and what isn't is going to be different. For the high school or college student who works part-time on the weekends it is probably too much to expect them to purchase a chargen program. But to the engineer or doctor it may be a no-brainer. Everyone is going to view it differently.
Now, if you want to discuss the differences of the programs we can talk about how the printout for HeroLabs is barebones, minimal ink as requested by their customers. TOS+ I know nothing about. The free spreadsheets? I have used OGRE's, and have attempted to use PCgen and a couple of others. My main issue with the free stuff is that it is usually way behind on the updates, and not always compatible with the software I run.
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Nah, the "rip-off" comment wasn't aimed at you. Sorry it looked that way.
I just wanted to give an honest assessment of the product. If it's still too expensive for someone, that's fair, but that decision should be an informed one.
I quoted their head guy on their own forums earlier, that's where I'm getting the part about the GMG and NPC Guide as coming "soon".The NPC Guide is nothing BUT NPCs, so I assume that's also what the GMG content is going to be as well.
I have no idea how this is such a long argument. You're paying to support the industry, and the hard work of the people developing the software. Sure there are excel worksheets that can do basically the same thing, but those need to be maintained and updated as well, so extra work. The worksheets don't support the industry, which isn't exactly health, and don't produce the quality present in Hero labs.
Wow, an argument about HeroLab I didn't start? What is this world coming to? ;) And I think I'll stay away from it this time.
Just popped in to say...
PC-Gen yet again does all of this for you for free!!! Why pay twice for something when there is no need to? Also, comparing the price of a PDF to the price of software is very relevant. Reason being is the mark up for convenience. If you are willing to spend the same amount of money to have software do the math for you is great, but by my comparison, it is not.
BTW, PC-Gen is cross platform. Where is HeroLab for Linux/FreeBSD/Solaris/Mac?
This.
I've used PC Gen for many years and have been very happy with it. (I've also used Hero Lab, so I know how the two compare). The current version fixed a lot of issues it had with the Pathfinder ruleset previously, and it looks like upcoming versions will be full of great things as well.
Sure, I wish PC Gen had a more user friendly GUI--part of the issue is it leaves displayed a bunch of "advanced options" basic users don't really need to see and wondering what the heck these tabs are for (for example, you don't really need to use the "race" and "class" tabs unless you're fiddling with templates and the like), etc. It's got a pretty fast learning curve though and I've created all kinds of weird creations like creatures with weird templates and class levels and so on as easily as I've created a 1st level core character.
I'm frankly amazed it is as well supported as it is considering it IS a free product. Yes, again, it can always use improvements but, again: free. So if that's your price range, it's worth considering.
ETA: APG material's in beta for PC Gen but will come out soon.
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could you please stop b@&%*ing about HL, thanks
it is much tougher to put this in a structured and nice gui and present it to the user. i do not see that hl is any good at that! also it takes me more time to create a char in hl than on paper! and i cannot even manage to put everthing the way i like.
And he barely took a breath in between.
The full APG is out for PC-Gen as of yesterday. Just grab the 51.16.4 RC1 build to have it and the following books:
Sweet.
The Get PC Gen page still only lists 16.3 though. Is it better to follow from the PC Gen wiki?
Is there a PC Gen forum? I know there's the Yahoo group but I had bad technical issues in the past with a Yahoo account and don't want to deal with that again.
No. Saying that purchasing add-ons for a character generator tool is more expensive than buying the entire book the add-on is based on is like saying "this is a program that is ripping people off"How is it ripping you off exactly?? You make all these quotes about how it does not do this or that yet it does all those things and more. The Add-ons are there for convenience. The 29.99 is the cost of the program. The Add-ons are something that ANYONE can add on there own if they so choose to do so.. OR they can buy them. The Bestiary and the APG come to 24.98 extra.. but hey if YOU want to do it by hand feel free to do so. That is a choice. You can also do the armory, the races and so on which are future add-ons too.
There is plenty of community content with more coming daily which you can add for free to the program.
The program is a character generator.. and NOT a book or PDF. It is designed to help you create characters on the fly and quickly and accurately. Taking the guess work or having to look up the rules and flipping pages to and fro all the time making sure you got everything. THIS is what the program does. Sure there are other programs out there that are similar but not nearly as comprehensive as this one at all.
With Hero Labs you DO get what you pay for. If you choose to buy the program and elect not to get the add-ons because of their cost, Hero Labs does NOT prevent you from doing it yourself at a cost of time. The beauty of having to buy the add-ons is that you get updates on them for life. Not to mention having to spend ALL that time doing it yourself. So spending the money is a convenience for some and a burden for others. The choice is yours but please do NOT make it sound like it is a rip off or should not be bought at all because for YOU it is to expensive and a supposed waste of money.
I know the free programs are fairly decent and I STILL use a number of them for various reasons but Hero Labs far outweighs them for any number of...
This is some bull. I OWN hero lab and TOS+. Charging people to develop a product that you then sell is crap. You lost 2 customers due to that practice. Also, very slow intergration of data, etc.
Hero lab isnt perfect, but at least they are upfront about screwing ya.
The full APG is out for PC-Gen as of yesterday. Just grab the 51.16.4 RC1 build to have it and the following books:
Sweet.
The Get PC Gen page still only lists 16.3 though. Is it better to follow from the PC Gen wiki?
Is there a PC Gen forum? I know there's the Yahoo group but I had bad technical issues in the past with a Yahoo account and don't want to deal with that again.
Just scroll down a bit to section 2 "Alpha, Beta, and RC Releases". Please note that the APG set is still a Work In Progress, and bound to have errors we are working on fixing. So, if you find any, please report them.
We don't currently have a forum, but you can participate in a Yahoo! group with a normal non-Yahoo! email, too.
I would suggest, two books, pencil, a rubber, a sharpener and a few empty paper sheets. :)
Why nobody use the classic methode...
I feel so alone.. :(
I would suggest, two books, pencil, a rubber, a sharpener and a few empty paper sheets. :)
I don't mean to embarrass you, but the word you want after "pencil" is "eraser." "Rubber" (when used as a noun with an article) is American English slang for "condom." :)
Why nobody use the classic methode...
I feel so alone.. :(
The classic method is always good. I think the main thing--especially when incorporating material from books beyond core (and this is about APG) is that by having it all in some kind of spreadsheet or similar program, you don't have to constantly be looking between two or more physical books to check your options.
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I would suggest, two books, pencil, a rubber, a sharpener and a few empty paper sheets. :)I don't mean to embarrass you, but the word you want after "pencil" is "eraser." "Rubber" (when used as a noun with an article) is American English slang for "condom." :)
But you have to admit, it would make character generation a lot more exciting!
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I would suggest, two books, pencil, a rubber, a sharpener and a few empty paper sheets. :)
Why nobody use the classic methode...
I feel so alone.. :(
Re: rubber/eraser - it's a classic European mistake, because as it appears the vast majority of continental countries use the same word for rubber and for an eraser, and an entirely different word for a condom (eg. in Polish rubber = guma, eraser = gumka, condom = prezerwatywa).
Been there, done that, got ridiculed by those filthy Brits and Yanks. /consoles Tryn.
But you have to admit, it would make character generation a lot more exciting!I would suggest, two books, pencil, a rubber, a sharpener and a few empty paper sheets. :)I don't mean to embarrass you, but the word you want after "pencil" is "eraser." "Rubber" (when used as a noun with an article) is American English slang for "condom." :)
I think they already make those kind of character generators.
I think they already make those kind of character generators.
Although the use of a rubber generally makes it difficult to actually create a character.
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The full APG is out for PC-Gen as of yesterday. Just grab the 51.16.4 RC1 build to have it and the following books:
Sweet.
The Get PC Gen page still only lists 16.3 though. Is it better to follow from the PC Gen wiki?
Is there a PC Gen forum? I know there's the Yahoo group but I had bad technical issues in the past with a Yahoo account and don't want to deal with that again.
Just scroll down a bit to section 2 "Alpha, Beta, and RC Releases". Please note that the APG set is still a Work In Progress, and bound to have errors we are working on fixing. So, if you find any, please report them.
We don't currently have a forum, but you can participate in a Yahoo! group with a normal non-Yahoo! email, too.
You might want to let them know to fix their download button. Currently the button on the 5.16.4 RC1 page downloads the 5.16.3 version. I had to try a dozen different things before I was able to download the correct version.
You might want to let them know to fix their download button. Currently the button on the 5.16.4 RC1 page downloads the 5.16.3 version. I had to try a dozen different things before I was able to download the correct version.
Actually there is only one page at Sourceforge, which has a big green button for the most current stable version. Newer, beta/RC versions are listed below that button on the same page.
Sorry if it's not as intuitive as it could or should be.
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This is some bull. I OWN hero lab and TOS+. Charging people to develop a product that you then sell is crap. You lost 2 customers due to that practice. Also, very slow intergration of data, etc.
Hero lab isnt perfect, but at least they are upfront about screwing ya.
How exactly is Hero Labs Screwing you? First you don't HAVE to pay buy it if you would rather not. Second IF you DO buy it then you do not have to buy all the add-ons if you would rather enter all the data yourself which is certainly doable and possible, just takes a lot of time. Third, I am NOT associated with HL in any way other then being a fan.
BTW Lonewolf does not charge people to develop their product. I am not sure where that came from at all. Care to clarify?
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and there's also the price of the Pathfinder core module itself which i think is either 10 or 15...and? I can make a spreadsheet do the better part of that without even using Basic or ActiveX.
Which add ons (plural) are those again? Cite specific examples please.http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab&page=pricing
APG: $9.99
Bestiary: $14.99
You only have to buy the "Pathfinder Core" if you bought Hero Labs previously with another rules/data set. The core is $19.99
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Jeez. This thread is like walking through a minefield.
I've happily used HeroLab, PCGen, TOS and a dozen other products over the years... I've put together content (3d party content and/or houserule modifications) for both PCGen and HeroLab. Currently I use HeroLab... only because it is fairly quick to update itself with new content, I put less work into tweaking and massaging the data files than I did with PCGen, and in the end, I consider my time to be worth more than what the Lonewolf guy(s?) are charging.
That boils down to a matter of pure preference. I don't think HL is at any risk of shutting down PCGen development by its popularity, nor vice versa. Same with TOS and Ogre's stuff. Different people will make different calls about what they consider their time worth and gravitate towards the product that's right for them.
Why we're all here shouting each other down over that I'm not sure I get.