Just joined a new group (LoF-AP) and am making a new character. They're on the 4th chapter and I'll admit I've never played a character of this level. (11th)
I thought that maybe a character generator would help me wrap my mind around all my choices.
Any help would be great...
HeroLab has the APG material as an add-on data package.
Thanks man I appreciate it!
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You should also check out Erian 7's Character Sheet. His sheet is free, has a user-friendly layout, is regularly updated and improved upon, and is cross-platform compatible due in a large part because he builds it without the use of macros, so it's faster and compatible with Open Office. I'm not a huge fan of his output sheets though, but they work.
Another alternative in the free category is The Ogre Sheet which isn't quite as fancy but certainly usable.
HeroLab has the current APG material updated, and its interface is pretty snazzy, but it's expensive as all-get-out and the sheets look absolutely terrible and lack a lot of the information that's nice to have (like detail about exactly how your power works). It's lifetime updates though which I guess is covered by the outrageous pricetag.
I'm not going to get into my feelings about TOS, but needless to say the above alternatives are pretty solid and worth first consideration.
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HeroLab has the current APG material updated, and its interface is pretty snazzy, but it's expensive as all-get-out and the sheets look absolutely terrible and lack a lot of the information that's nice to have (like detail about exactly how your power works). It's lifetime updates though which I guess is covered by the outrageous pricetag.
For the record, HeroLab is $29.99, plus $9.99 for the APG content.
Another +1 to Hero Lab. I've used it to make a couple of APG characters and it worked quite well.
Hero Lab is fantastic, imo. Having the ability to export it into an easy-to-read statblock makes it so much easier to create unique NPCs (and PCs for that matter) on the fly. I'd highly recommend it!
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For the record, HeroLab is $29.99, plus $9.99 for the APG content.
To me that's outrageous. Since I'm an AP subscriber, the PDF of the original book is less than $9.99, and you're paying that after the $30 original pricetag. New content will likely be on a similar pricing structure, with you paying for books like Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. It's not going to take long for the software to get into the $100 range.
I fully support the comments that it's a nice program though. It looks fantastic and the interface for building characters is generally intuitive. I honestly hate their output sheets, but me not liking the output is a personal thing, I realize that. If you're comfortable with the pricetag, it's pretty nice for speccing out new characters, but I just cringe when I see its cost knowing I'll never use its output.
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HeroLab has the current APG material updated, and its interface is pretty snazzy, but it's expensive as all-get-out and the sheets look absolutely terrible and lack a lot of the information that's nice to have (like detail about exactly how your power works). It's lifetime updates though which I guess is covered by the outrageous pricetag.
The Hero Labs output while not the "best" still gives out plenty of great information! I am not sure what MisterSlanky is talking about with the lack of information but all the powers and spells are provided as far as information included with it if you choose that option. Also everything a character could want is on the output sheet for the most part :)
BTW I think that the sheets look good as well and NOT terrible but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.As far as outrageous goes as pointed out earlier in this thread the cost of Hero Labs is not that much in my opinion. 29.99 + 9.99 for the advanced players guide option and if you want the bestiary it is 14.99.
45.99 is not to bad in my opinion, cheaper then most new video games and for software, 45.99 is about average.
There are more add-ons coming soon for it as well :)
45.99 is not to bad in my opinion, cheaper then most new video games and for software, 45.99 is about average.
However it's more expensive than buying the books themselves in PDF format.
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However it's more expensive than buying the books themselves in PDF format.
45.99 is not to bad in my opinion, cheaper then most new video games and for software, 45.99 is about average.
While I agree that the price is too high (and is the only reason I have not yet purchased HeroLab and why I quit DDI) it does make creating a character or NPC easier for you and supplies a printable sheet. The books and PDF's don't do that.
I like HeroLab, have run the trial version and found it very easy to use. For someone willing to pay the price, I can see it being very useful. Until I can afford it in addition to purchasing the books and pdf's (not that I can't, but finding justification for the wife is difficult), I have been using Ogre's sheet.
Fingers crossed, maybe she'll let me buy it as an early Christmas present. :)
I wish the guy who made Redblade hadn't completely dropped the new Redblade and did it without releasing what source code he had. Redblade was the best free character builder, minus some ignorable hiccups.
What we need is another easy to use free character builder - one that provides the frame and ruleset that content could be added to by the user or community.
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However it's more expensive than buying the books themselves in PDF format.
This statement seems silly to me. You aren't buying this to replace having the pdf of the books, it serves a completely different purpose.
Are the pdfs of the books doing all the math of character creation for you? Are the pdfs of the books giving you drop down lists of the class abilities, on the fly, as you level up your character? Are they applying feats and skills so that you can instantly look and see what your stats are?
Saying that purchasing a character generation program is more expensive than buying the original rulebooks is like saying that buying a computer is more expensive than buying a television.
You buy the books so that you have access to all the information available on the subject. You buy the program to apply that information in an efficient and simplified manner.
I do have to agree with the folks up there that don't much care for the output. I would prefer a slightly more user-definable output system.
This statement seems silly to me. You aren't buying this to replace having the pdf of the books, it serves a completely different purpose.
However it's more expensive than buying the books themselves in PDF format.
Which completely misses the point of my statement.
Are the pdfs of the books doing all the math of character creation for you?
What math?
Are the pdfs of the books giving you drop down lists of the class abilities, on the fly, as you level up your character?
Nope, but they are all RIGHT THERE so you know what you get and when you get it.
Are they applying feats and skills so that you can instantly look and see what your stats are?
The program applies your feats and skills for you? I am pretty sure you had to apply that stuff yourself.
Saying that purchasing a character generation program is more expensive than buying the original rulebooks is like saying that buying a computer is more expensive than buying a television.
No. Saying that purchasing add-ons for a character generator tool is more expensive than buying the entire book the add-on is based on is like saying "this is a program that is ripping people off"
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No. Saying that purchasing add-ons for a character generator tool is more expensive than buying the entire book the add-on is based on is like saying "this is a program that is ripping people off"
Which add ons (plural) are those again? Cite specific examples please.
The program applies the effects of your skills and feats without you having to do anything more than selecting them or toggling them. If you pick Weapon Focus: Longsword as a feat, the Longsword entry on the weapons tab will automatically have +1 added to your total attack modifier with that weapon. Math done for you.
It's more than a character generator, it's also an in-game aide. Check boxes exist for every condition, and simple drop-down options on the same tab allow you to add any modifier to most any numerical result on the fly. Math done for you.
Estragon is exactly correct that comparing the price of a PDF is irrelevant to the price of a piece of software, even if they both cover similar topics. One is simply read, the other is used.
..and? I can make a spreadsheet do the better part of that without even using Basic or ActiveX.
Which add ons (plural) are those again? Cite specific examples please.
http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab&page=pricing
APG: $9.99
Bestiary: $14.99
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..and? I can make a spreadsheet do the better part of that without even using Basic or ActiveX.
Then why are you looking for a chargen program? What exactly is it that you are wanting this thing to do? If you say that you want to get a free product that provides all of the information in the pdf versions of the books, then I believe there is a word for that.
Why don't you just buy the pdf of the books?
I (and I suspect, many others) have purchased the pdf of the books (I also have hard copies of 90% thereof). What I wanted was a program that would allow me, in a matter of about 10 minutes, to construct a fully developed 11th (or whatever) level character, with a useful feature for tracking all resources (potions, scrolls, spells, per day uses, etc.), as well as radio buttons that will automatically apply the affects of things like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Staggered, Blind, etc.
A computer program does that. The pdf of the books does not. Could I write an Excel spreadsheet to do so? Sure, and some have (I reference here the excellent Erian_7 product (free) and the Ogresheet (also free)). On the other hand, I am an adult with a job and a family, and generally have easier access to about $50 than I do to a hundred hours of farting around with a spreadsheet, trying to poke numbers and type things into all the proper squares and not break my references.
Then why are you looking for a chargen program? What exactly is it that you are wanting this thing to do? If you say that you want to get a free product that provides all of the information in the pdf versions of the books, then I believe there is a word for that.
Good thing that's not what I said. Anyone with half an iota of talent can make spreadsheets do basic calculations. People with a good bit of talent and too much time on their hands can make spreadsheets pretend they are real programs. I liked Redblade because it was customizable and provided the ability to create a character digitally as you would manually. I can and do have a spreadsheet that does all the math for me when I put in the inputs. I like that the programs have all the stuff stored in one place to pick from instead of being entered manually like a physical sheet.
However, I don't put a $30+ value on that capability.A computer program does that. The pdf of the books does not. Could I write an Excel spreadsheet to do so? Sure, and some have (I reference here the excellent Erian_7 product (free) and the Ogresheet (also free)). On the other hand, I am an adult with a job and a family, and generally have easier access to about $50 than I do to a hundred hours of farting around with a spreadsheet, trying to poke numbers and type things into all the proper squares and not break my references.
Hundred hours? Bullocks. Once the frame is created, it is kept up EXACTLY like a paper sheet. And the frame only takes a couple hours.
If you like spending your money on a program that is charging as much or more for data add-ons that the company that made the IP is charging, you go ahead. I most certainly won't and I don't find it defensible.|
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Then why are you looking for a chargen program?..and? I can make a spreadsheet do the better part of that without even using Basic or ActiveX.
I don't believe Cartigan is the original poster and he(?) is only responding to others comments.
My only dislike is the cost, as I've stated before. I am unaware of any other software, other than a MMO, that requires you to continually buy updates. But, take my thoughts with a grain of salt, I don't play MMO's nor do I buy a lot of software. The software I do buy includes support with updates as part of the original price. So what do I know, really. Not much when it comes to computer software, I guess.
EDIT: Ninja'd
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I am unaware of any other software, other than a MMO, that requires you to continually buy updates.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Well, you aren't paying for updates. You are paying for someone to input completely new data into the system.
Updates, such as cleaning up errata, improving the interface, adding actual program functionality, etc. are free, as part of the program cost.
Adding NEW information, such as that included in a new book, is not free.
Are you saying that the makers of the original IP, paizo, should include all the new information (for instance, the new APG classes) for their roleplaying game as a free update, instead of making you purchase a new book? It's the exact same concept.
In point of fact, if you go to a third party source, such as the PFSRD, you CAN get that information for free, it just doesn't come in a shiny book you can put on your shelf.
This (and any other commercial program) is a product designed to be sold with a specific set of capabilities. Free updates to improve the functionality are certainly expected. Adding new capabilities? That's an upgrade, not an update.
There ARE free alternatives: the aforementioned spreadsheets, PCGen, the now defunct Redblade. Many of these are (or were) very good alternatives, but they are subject to the foibles of all open source things, and that is the availability of someone willing to spend the time to add new data as it is generated. PCGen is one of my all time favorite programs, and those guys do fantastic work, but they don't get paid for it, and as a result, spitting out new datasets (like APG) is subject to the time they have available.
A program like HeroLab, because people PAY for it, is able to hire a guy to sit in a room and jam all that information into the system, THEN sit there and pound on the keys for a few days to make sure it works. This gives them a much shorter time-to-market, but it comes at a cost. It appears that, for a set of any given three PF Companion books, that cost (to the user) is about $5. If you don't need it, don't buy it.
Jeebus, now I sound like I am defending Hero Lab. I promise that I am not specifically doing so, I am just trying to argue the point that, at some point in our lives, it is worth $50 to obtain a product that a) is very good at what it does, b) saves us a great deal of time, c) is the product of skilled people completing a task that we may not be able to complete for ourselves.
I just downloaded TOS its not half bad but I think after using it to create a 14th level sorcerer / 6th level dragon disciple the designer could use some assistance. The bloodline powers were not added into the characters stat block, but I'm in the market for better software. Thanks for the idea's in the prior posts.
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..and? I can make a spreadsheet do the better part of that without even using Basic or ActiveX.
Which add ons (plural) are those again? Cite specific examples please.http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab&page=pricing
APG: $9.99
Bestiary: $14.99
You failed to support your premise. The APG add-on is the same price as the PDF, not more expensive. The Bestiary add-on is more expensive than the PDF, but that is A) one, not multiple examples; B) before HeroLab/Lonewolf became the official program partner for Paizo; and C) contained an absolute ton of additional material over and above just entering statblocks.
For the official add-ons, $4.99 includes 3 books worth of material, vs. $23.96 for the 3 PDFs covering the same content. And all of this content can be entered by the user for free and legally, and in fact some of it has been done by others and posted online for free.
Not everyone has experience with Excell, and not everyone cares to learn how to make their own sheet in Excell or any other program.
Oh, and HeroLab isn't just a character sheet/character generator, it's an in-play game aid as well.
Where is HeroLab for Linux/FreeBSD/Solaris/Mac?
A Mac platform version is on the way, probably before Christmas 2010. It was required for Lone Wolf to secure exclusive rights with Paizo for electronic aids. I'm pretty sure the others can run OS emulators, and I'm equally sure you'll see an Android version of the software before FreeBSD/Solaris versions, if ever.
Adding NEW information, such as that included in a new book, is not free.
Except that ISN'T new information. That is information created by PAIZO and is being scribed into their product.
You failed to support your premise
I provided two examples where data add-ons for Herolab cost as much or more than the Paizo products they are based on.
For the official add-ons, $4.99 includes 3 books worth of material
What?
$20 is for Player's Guide and GMG and, theoretically, the program. If you already had the program, well, it's still $20. Which is another point for my argument "Herolab is selling data add-ons at as much or more than Paizo products on which they are based"I don't even know what is included in the "Player's Companion Races" so I can't say if you are right or wrong. Perhaps you should actually bother telling people what you are trying to sell them.
Not everyone has experience with Excel
Good thing I bothered to specify what I was saying then, huh?
Oh, and HeroLab isn't just a character sheet/character generator, it's an in-play game aid as well.
I should bloody hope so for the price you are charging.
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I just downloaded TOS its not half bad but I think after using it to create a 14th level sorcerer / 6th level dragon disciple the designer could use some assistance. The bloodline powers were not added into the characters stat block, but I'm in the market for better software. Thanks for the idea's in the prior posts.
And there's a great example of software which requires you to pay an annual subscription cost for updates and why it bugs the crap out of me. At least Hero Labs has a one-time fee for products and updates to that product (though I still think it's outrageously expensive).
I'm all for the free/public domain options. You're getting easily as much substance, often cases equally well-supported, and without cost.
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Jeebus, now I sound like I am defending Hero Lab. I promise that I am not specifically doing so, I am just trying to argue the point that, at some point in our lives, it is worth $50 to obtain a product that a) is very good at what it does, b) saves us a great deal of time, c) is the product of skilled people completing a task that we may not be able to complete for ourselves.
I have been doing the same thing as you, and I have called a "fanboy" and was accused of working for Lone Wolf Development. I am neither, but I just like to point out falsehoods and misinformation. If someone doesn't want to spend the money, that's a valid complaint. Stacking up false facts to persuade others not to spend their money on it based on misinformation isn't something that sits well with me, regardless of who's selling the product.
(And it's <$40 for the core rules + APG, and that includes 2 licensed computers, +$9.99 for a 3rd.)
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Except that ISN'T new information. That is information created by PAIZO and is being scribed into their product.
Adding NEW information, such as that included in a new book, is not free.
It IS new information. New information CREATED by Paizo and ENTERED into HeroLab by Lone Wolf, exactly as was stated.
You failed to support your premiseI provided two examples where data add-ons for Herolab cost as much or more than the Paizo products they are based on.
That's not what you said originally. Originally you said "MORE" expensive. Move the goalposts much?
For the official add-ons, $4.99 includes 3 books worth of materialWhat?
I don't even know what is included in the "Player's Companion Races" so I can't say if you are right or wrong. Perhaps you should actually bother telling people what you are trying to sell them.
Read the info at the link YOU provided. Three Player's Companion books per bundle for $4.99, vs $7.99 for EACH book's PDF. It's the same pricing for the race books as well as the regional books.
I'll spell it out for you. Books with little crunch have an add-on cost less than the PDF of the same source material. Books with lots of crunch have an add-on cost of equal (or in a single case) slightly more than the already-heavily-discounted source PDF.
Oh, and HeroLab isn't just a character sheet/character generator, it's an in-play game aid as well.I should bloody hope so for the price you are charging.
Then perhaps you should remember that fact when you make disingenuous comparisons of a player's aid program to a simple spreadsheet character record or a PDF. And I don't charge a thing. Lone Wolf does, and I don't work for them.
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Except that ISN'T new information. That is information created by PAIZO and is being scribed into their product.
Adding NEW information, such as that included in a new book, is not free.
One thing is being ignored here: you can simply pay the $30 for Hero Lab and enter in all the information from the Bestiary, APG, APs, etc. by hand. That has always been an option. If you would rather spend dozens and dozens of hours going through those books and entering in data than pay a fairly nominal fee for someone else to do it and gain free access to updates that correct any errata, then feel free. I myself don't have the time or inclination to do so.
Another notable bonus for HeroLab, at least in my book, is the fact that Pathfinder is not the only game it supports. It supports the following game systems:
Pathfinder RPG
Call of Cthulhu
Mutants & Masterminds (2nd Edition)
d20 System (D&D 3.5)
Authoring Kit (allows you to create your own system)
4th Edition
Cortex
Mutants & Masterminds (3rd Edition Beta)
Savage Worlds
World of Darkness
I've used it for the first four systems.
It IS new information. New information CREATED by Paizo and ENTERED into HeroLab by Lone Wolf, exactly as was stated.
Monkey work is hardly worth the same as creating the original.
That's not what you said originally. Originally you said "MORE" expensive. Move the goalposts much?
What I said ORIGINALLY is $45.99 for HeroLab with Pathfinder, the Bestiary, and the APG is more expensive than buying the books themselves on PDF. Which it is.
What I THEN said is charging more for data add-ons for a program than the books they are based on is ripping people off. Which it is.
When I ACTUALLY referred to the charges specifically, I said
f you like spending your money on a program that is charging as much or more for data add-ons that the company that made the IP is charging, you go ahead.
Read the info at the link YOU provided. Three Player's Companion books per bundle for $4.99, vs $7.99 for EACH book's PDF.
All I see is "Player's Companion Races #1 - $4.99"
Which COMPLETELY fails to tell me when the content even covers.Books with little crunch have an add-on cost less than the PDF of the same source material.
Like the Bestiary..?
Then perhaps you should remember that fact when you make disingenuous comparisons of a player's aid program to a simple spreadsheet character record or a PDF.
I made the explicit comparison of a program offering data add-ons for as much or more than the works they are based on.
And I don't charge a thing. Lone Wolf does, and I don't work for them.
You mean the cheerleading is all volunteer work?
Not to threadjack, but does anyone remember how long Heroforge was developed before it reached its present state (v6.something IIRC)? My opinion of character generators is informed by my brief experience with Heroforge, and I'd LOVE to see an excel sheet that detailed for Pathfinder. Tried TOS+, found the implementation and lack of documentation frustrating. Erian_7's sheet is the closest thing I've found to Heroforge, and I think it'll get there eventually. Anyway, when was the first version of Heroforge released?
Zo
I'm not a big fan of "Excel worksheet as a program." For various reasons.
I think people should just collaborate and make a real program.
I'm not a big fan of "Excel worksheet as a program." For various reasons.
I think people should just collaborate and make a real program.
That'd be great if it was free. I dig the excel sheets because you can create a character and email it, post it on the net, etc. and it's just a self-contained file that anyone (who's got excel) can open. All my players have excel or open office (Erian's sheet works in OO too) and they can update their character, throw it up on the campaign site, and then I can shoot down all their munchkin feat selections. Easy!
A free program would have the same benefits, but my group would murder me if I asked them to learn to use PCGen after making them learn to use Erian's sheet.
Zo
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Then perhaps you should remember that fact when you make disingenuous comparisons of a player's aid program to a simple spreadsheet character record or a PDF.I made the explicit comparison of a program offering data add-ons for as much or more than the works they are based on.
No, you compared the price to the PDFs of the source material. Can I compare the price to the cost of the Hardcover books? How about I add in my hourly wages spent adding in that crunch myself? Is that a better comparison? It's as valid as yours.
And I don't charge a thing. Lone Wolf does, and I don't work for them.You mean the cheerleading is all volunteer work?
Ah, with the personal attacks again. "Cheerleader", "Fanboy", etc.
I still don't work for them, I don't even "volunteer" (never posted or contributed to a single fan-based data-entry add-on, or "monkey work" as you so humbly called it).
You never did explictly state if you work for a competitor, or were working on or involved in any way with a competing project. I'll admit to owning, using, and liking HeroLab. How about you? If it's so simple, why haven't you put out a competing program? Or even more simply, why haven't you stated what you think a fair price scheme for HeroLab and it's data add-ons would be?
For everyone who thinks HeroLab and it's add-ons are too expensive (or even a "rip-off" and Cartigan claims), what price would you think fair for what you get? I'm honestly curious.
PCGen could be more user friendly.
If it's so simple, why haven't you put out a competing program?
1) I'm lazy
2) I'm trying to figure out the backend data storage system.|
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Btw, the GMG content is not an add-on data set. It's to be included in the Core Rules ($30) package.
Core Pathfinder RPG Package
The core Pathfinder RPG game system is where everything begins for Pathfinder players using Hero Lab. The content currently provided within the core package will be expanding beyond what is currently provided. The core package can either be selected as the free game system included with the initial purchase of Hero Lab ($30) or added to an existing Hero Lab license ($20). A complete list of all the material in the core package is provided below.
Currently included content:
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
* Player content from six Pathfinder Adventure Paths - Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, Kingmaker
* 20+ common PC and NPC races, including the Drow, Tiefling, Hobgoblin, and many others
* Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play
* Character Traits Web Enhancement (same as the Basic Traits from the Advanced Player's Guide)Content to be included in the near future:
* Gamemastery Guide
* Pathfinder Chronicles: NPC Guide
* Player content from the Serpent's Skull Adventure PathAll the "future" content listed above will be incorporated via free updates for existing Hero Lab users.
$30 for the Core Rules vs $10 for the Core Rules PDF is a false and disingenuous comparison. The core $30 gets you a lot more than that (The NPC Guide and GMG are NOT add-ons they charge for). Plus new AP content forever.
$20 is for Player's Guide and GMG and, theoretically, the program. If you already had the program, well, it's still $20.
I actually undercounted. It's $30 for Player's Guide, GMG, and program.
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For the official add-ons, $4.99 includes 3 books worth of materialWhat?
I don't even know what is included in the "Player's Companion Races" so I can't say if you are right or wrong. Perhaps you should actually bother telling people what you are trying to sell them.
Read the info at the link YOU provided. Three Player's Companion books per bundle for $4.99, vs $7.99 for EACH book's PDF. It's the same pricing for the race books as well as the regional books.
I'll spell it out for you. Books with little crunch have an add-on cost less than the PDF of the same source material. Books with lots of crunch have an add-on cost of equal (or in a single case) slightly more than the already-heavily-discounted source PDF.
The key here for me is little crunch. Most of the player companion books have very little crunch and are mostly flavor.
I am looking at the community for HeroLab and finding the "free" add-ons as something that would get me to buy it.
I'm not for or against HeroLab. The price is an issue for me. But I do like the program. I'm going to have to do some more research on what is available for free and what isn't, and perhaps I will purchase the basic program and APG. We'll see.
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All I will say is I love Herolab and will gladly pay for the addons as I use D20pro and the combination of the two = Paradise.
If people don't want to buy it and use it, then thats there loss IMO. No one is holding a gun to there heads to do so. I do not use the other free versions I see floating around as I consider them junk in comparison to Herolab.
I just downloaded TOS its not half bad but I think after using it to create a 14th level sorcerer / 6th level dragon disciple the designer could use some assistance.
The bloodline powers were not added into the characters stat block, but I'm in the market for better software. Thanks for the idea's in the prior posts.
You cannot 'download' TOS+. You can only try a very limited DEMO that has little functionality left (This should have been made pretty clear when you tried the DEMO!!)
I created a 14th level sorcerer, 6th level Dragon Disciple and printed out the BACk page in THIS PDF to show you that you are incorrect in your statement: If you check the INFO section, you will see ALL the details of the bloodline...
TOS+ is a very "mature" Character Sheet - too much so to miss 'obvious' stuff like that. Bugs are far and few between (specially for established content!) The user base makes sure of that be reporting bugs when those are found :P
Subscribers can send me suggestions in the The Crystal Ball [TOS+ Ideas & Suggestions] section - I implement many of those to make TOS+ a better tool :) So I am 'getting' a lot of input/ideas from users.
And there's a great example of software which requires you to pay an annual subscription cost for updates and why it bugs the crap out of me....
With a thousand users, there is no 'obvious' bugs in TOS+. Any error that is found is quickly reported in the Gremlins! [TOS+ Issues] section of the community forum.
I get it that you prefer free tools. Not everyone can afford to pay for the work of others - hence freebies will always have attendance - irrelevant of their functionality. I spent the last 7 years after loosing my job, working on making TOS+ the best Sheet ever. I receive enough positive comments from users to confirm that I have succeeded for many of them, and I am proud of that. But please do not belittle my work because of your preference for free Sheets. Thanks!
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No. Saying that purchasing add-ons for a character generator tool is more expensive than buying the entire book the add-on is based on is like saying "this is a program that is ripping people off"
How is it ripping you off exactly?? You make all these quotes about how it does not do this or that yet it does all those things and more. The Add-ons are there for convenience. The 29.99 is the cost of the program. The Add-ons are something that ANYONE can add on there own if they so choose to do so.. OR they can buy them. The Bestiary and the APG come to 24.98 extra.. but hey if YOU want to do it by hand feel free to do so. That is a choice. You can also do the armory, the races and so on which are future add-ons too.
There is plenty of community content with more coming daily which you can add for free to the program.
The program is a character generator.. and NOT a book or PDF. It is designed to help you create characters on the fly and quickly and accurately. Taking the guess work or having to look up the rules and flipping pages to and fro all the time making sure you got everything. THIS is what the program does. Sure there are other programs out there that are similar but not nearly as comprehensive as this one at all.
With Hero Labs you DO get what you pay for. If you choose to buy the program and elect not to get the add-ons because of their cost, Hero Labs does NOT prevent you from doing it yourself at a cost of time. The beauty of having to buy the add-ons is that you get updates on them for life. Not to mention having to spend ALL that time doing it yourself. So spending the money is a convenience for some and a burden for others. The choice is yours but please do NOT make it sound like it is a rip off or should not be bought at all because for YOU it is to expensive and a supposed waste of money.
I know the free programs are fairly decent and I STILL use a number of them for various reasons but Hero Labs far outweighs them for any number of reasons. To compare the free ones to Hero Labs is like comparing Apples to Watermelon... They are both fruit but do not taste the same, nor do they look the same. Some prefer one over the other but not all like them both or for that matter either one. If you choose not to use Hero Labs fine.. but do not knock it for others ok.
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Btw, the GMG content is not an add-on data set. It's to be included in the Core Rules ($30) package.
Core Pathfinder RPG Package
The core Pathfinder RPG game system is where everything begins for Pathfinder players using Hero Lab. The content currently provided within the core package will be expanding beyond what is currently provided. The core package can either be selected as the free game system included with the initial purchase of Hero Lab ($30) or added to an existing Hero Lab license ($20). A complete list of all the material in the core package is provided below.
Currently included content:
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
* Player content from six Pathfinder Adventure Paths - Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, Kingmaker
* 20+ common PC and NPC races, including the Drow, Tiefling, Hobgoblin, and many others
* Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play
* Character Traits Web Enhancement (same as the Basic Traits from the Advanced Player's Guide)Content to be included in the near future:
* Gamemastery Guide
* Pathfinder Chronicles: NPC Guide
* Player content from the Serpent's Skull Adventure PathAll the "future" content listed above will be incorporated via free updates for existing Hero Lab users.
$30 for the Core Rules vs $10 for the Core Rules PDF is a false and disingenuous comparison. The core $30 gets you a lot more than that (The NPC Guide and GMG are NOT add-ons they charge for). Plus new AP content forever.
So basically what you are saying despite what Cartigan is implying in so many ways.. you are getting about $380.54 (rough guess) of material for the low cost of 54.97 with the cost of the software (with ALL the current add-ons at this date).
Cartigan implied that the PDF is some what cheaper. While you do NOT get all the relevant information that the PDF has in them you do get what is pertinent for the character or the GM as far as an NPC is concerned. So even halving the 380.56 by two and getting 190.28, Hero Labs is still a bargain... it is one way of justifying it.
By the way Cartigan notice no name calling was used when referring to you or any one else that was talking about Hero Labs in the same likeness as you. "Monkey" and the like is just not a good thing to use when trying to make a point, but guess it does not work for you as you will continue to do it "your" way and ridicule others to make "your" point right.
Belittle? For what your work is I found good. However, the obvious strain on your psyche is showing. Perhaps, drinking less caffeen or what ever your chosen poison maybe. I was well aware that the program was a demo, thank you and please get some rest and some help in what ever is going on whith you. Chow...
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I get it that you prefer free tools. Not everyone can afford to pay for the work of others - hence freebies will always have attendance - irrelevant of their functionality. I spent the last 7 years after loosing my job, working on making TOS+ the best Sheet ever. I receive enough positive comments from users to confirm that I have succeeded for many of them, and I am proud of that. But please do not belittle my work because of your preference for free Sheets. Thanks!
Let's make a couple things very clear. I do prefer free products, but it's also embarrassing the amount I spend on my gaming habit. In other words, I spend a lot; yet I'm cautious on what I spend my money on. I do research and I make informed decisions on what I buy. I impulse buy on occasion too, just like everybody else, but it's something I try to moderate. So when it comes to what is essentially a glorified spreadhseet, and while yes I prefer free, honestly - and here's the clincher - I don't like your product. So thank you very much for telling me to stop telling people my opinion, but I will continue to do so. The ongoing conversation also wasn't about you, but as always I see you felt it necessary to pop in for the mandatory product placement again.
So back to the topic at hand.
I can't believe I'm going to say this but I agree with Cartigan. The Hero Labs software has a fantastic interface and is very user friendly and as much as I dislike the output, it is a good program, but when you consider that your Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and APG cost around $30 if you buy them as PDFs, Hero Labs costs you roughly $50 for those same products. That's roughly a 66% markup on a product you need to own to use the software in the first place. Saying that you can't compare the PDF cost with the software cost is disingenuous; you can compare the two only because one is a prerequisite for the other.
The open-source community out there is huge. We have people like those working on the D20PFSRD and Pathfinder Wiki putting in great work for fantastic products and they do it on their own time as fans of the hobby. There are a couple of good character generation tools out there that easily rival paid-for products that have tremendous community involvement in maintaining and keeping their high quality, again maintained by fans of the hobby that happen to have the requisite skills to build them. When one person gets bored the torch often gets passed along and the software continues to evolve and improve. What I have a hard time swallowing is software that requires me to essentially double the purchase costs of the PDF versions of my books (I'm looking at you Hero Labs) or want you to continue paying subscription costs for bug-fixes and maintenance, which is ridiculous considering what they are. I don't even disagree that there isn't room for a paid-for solutions, but their pricing structure for their products is just silly, especially when you do consider that there are some very high quality free products that they're in competition with.
I'm perfectly fine that we all have differing opinions (that's what makes the world interesting), but I'm off this thread. It's one thing to have discussions from fans and foes of products regarding the merits and failings of various products, but I'm not interested in making them glorified adspace for the various software developers when they decide to start showing up. So buy what you want to buy, use what you want to use, I'm out.