Carrion Crown: Music


Carrion Crown

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Liberty's Edge

Chris Manos wrote:

anyone considered setting up a Pandora station for this music?

*snaps fingers* That's a fantastic idea. I'll get on it when I get home. ^_^


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I use music a lot in my games. I mean A LOT.

Something I once wrote for the FoS:

---

Not everything in a movie soundtracks is good. Great tracks for a gothic game are mixed with other moods. To skip these useless tracks, or to avoid sudden changes from the ‘mood’ needed in game, I put all my music on the computer and sort it by ‘theme’ folders. Those are the ‘themes’ I use in my Ravenloft game:

• Exploration music– investigations and explorations. Hints of stress or anxiety in them.

• Heroic and action – for battles, pursuits, and other heroic feats.

• Mystery – similar to exploration. Calm music with hints of supernatural or something menacing

• Sounds - fun sounds I found here and there. My collection includes screams, dogs, wolves, thunderstorm, wind, church bells, etc. Some Halloween-type soundtrack have spooky atmosphere too (when they are not too cheesey/silly).

• Stress - self explanatory too, but very stressful parts of the game.

• Supernatural and unknown – eerie music

• Sad – self explanatory again

• Miscellaneous - vistani music, tavern music, circus music, religious temple (whether good or evil), etc.

I have a list for each folder, providing for each track the length and my thoughts for each track. I note switch of mood or pace within a track. It’s not that long to make, I upgrade the list once in a while with new tracks I first listen to when doing something else (planning D&D!).

Example of use of rhythm: from The Ravenous soundtrack, a piece called “the cave”. It is eight minutes long and starts with a mysterious repetitive music (mystery and stress combined, slowly changing to stressful mood at about 3:20 minutes). I had timed my description with an increase in stress from a description with at 4:13 minutes of “the cave”, it was perfectly timed with the stressful mood taking over completely: it was revealed to them that a woman was lowered in a dog fight pit while the music changed to a bass sound, more and more frantic, with jungle-like drums a few moments later. And dread-like acid guitar sound at 5:43 with the werewolf revelation. Highly recommended! The anxiety of the players was near palpable (scene from Ravenloft’s Evil Eye)

Before a game, I review my game plan and choose music for each part of the adventure. Sometimes players do not notice the efforts but it works, it works 200% and is worth the effort.

For each scene: I usually select 3-5 pieces of the same mood, with possibly added sounds (ex: howling wolf), that I play in random mode during a scene. Because if you chose only one mp3 for play, it will become repetitive and boring.

---

I also like Bauhaus and other creepy music artists, but I tend to avoid known pop (or rock) mp3, as they distract the game if there are another fan around the table. During a game, I keep to soundtracks and things creepy.

But I also have LotR mp3, and similar heroic inspired music, for times where the situation needs it. If you use creepy music all the time, it won’t last long before it’s boring! Iusually start a game with heroic music, then turn the mood to creepy when needed.

---

People have great suggestions here, but there are a few gems that were not mentioned:

- The Ravenloft “A Light in the Belfry” had an audio CD of great spooky sounds (creaking door, wind through trees, barking dog, monsters, …) because sounds can be as interesting for mood as music.
At one point in a game, the players were pursuing something at night. Then I tell them they heard a wolf howl in the distance. After a moment, they put their attention back to the pursuit, until my computer adds a wolf howling sound in the mix … Then the players knew the wolves threat was for real.

- Two tracks from the (great) movie Eyes Wide Shut:
(I see evil rituals on this music).

And this creepy piano piece . (but get the CD soundtrack, it is without car noise, voice, and other distractions)
(EXTREMELY creepy if you also lower the light)

- “American McGee's Alice” (twisted)

- “The Village” (had great soundtrack for suspense)

I do not have my list with me as I write this, will add more later!

Joël


A few more from the top of my head:

John Zorn and Diamanda Gallas. I knew the song but just found out it’s from a soundtrack. Just saw this clip from the movie and I’m not sure I want to see the whole movie … (!)

Diamanda Gallas again. She sings like I imagine a Marilith would .

John Zorn again, very creepy ghostly atmosphere (in fact my preferred Halloween ambient music*) . And here’s v2 .

* In fact, when my kids were young, I spooked them with this song. I told them there was this musician living alone in a forest. One day, he woke up and found something had recorded this during the night ... ;)

Joël

Liberty's Edge

Carrio Crown radio is made! Everyone who can, please hop on and start throwing in your lot about what kinds of music is scary! ^_^

Also, if people showed some interest, I run a Livestream station and would love to do some sort of community horror movie night to celebrate the release of Carrion Crown, possibly next week. More details as I come up with stuff.


Hey hida-j!

Unfortunately, Pandora isn't accessible outside the US.

It sez my IP is in Canada and it refuses my access...

Joël

Liberty's Edge

Joël! Good to see you over this way! Sucks that you can't hit up the Pandora station, though. I wonder if there are any Otherplacian-friendly alternatives...?

Liberty's Edge Contributor

Cherubini: requiem in d minor
Glenn Branca: Symphony #5 (describing the planes of hyperspace)
Flowers from Hell: Opus 66
Henryk Górecki: Quasi una Fantasia, String Quartet No.2, op.64

As I've done before: I second Dryder on Lustmord!!

Contributor

Riptide777 and Others wrote:
A lot of awesome things...

Whoa. Very cool. I'll have to check a lot of this out before I write my next foreword. Putting together the werewolf list ended up being kind of a bear... bearwolf... whatever.

Contributor

hida_jiremi wrote:
Carrio Crown radio is made! Everyone who can, please hop on and start throwing in your lot about what kinds of music is scary! ^_^

OKAY! THAT'S HOT! I know what I'm listening to ALL DAY TOMORROW!

Thanks a ton for putting this together! You guys are the best.

hida_jiremi wrote:
Also, if people showed some interest, I run a Livestream station and would love to do some sort of community horror movie night to celebrate the release of Carrion Crown, possibly next week. More details as I come up with stuff.

I don't know what this means, but it also sounds really cool!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

How about some Nox Arcana?

Check out the Vampire Exorcism video on YouTube (preferably in HD). Gotta love the ability to turn undead :)

You can find some decent sample tracks for free off their official website. From the available sample tracks, I would recommend listening to the following instrumental pieces:

Another group who make some suitable background music is the German group Erdenstern, who seem to specialize in RPG music. There are plenty of samples of their work available for download on their Official Website

In particular, check out the sample medley from their album Into the Dark. Pretty much every song on this album would suit the Carrion Crown Adventure Path. I also like some of their other stuff..

The Swedish instrumental group Za Frûmi also produce a few nice pieces. For example The Halls of Madness from Legends Act 2 - Vampires

For something a bit more subtle and melancholy, you might try Tristesse from the French dark ambient duo Artésia (found on the album L'aube morne). Also check out Quand Vient La Nuit (When Night Falls)

Liberty's Edge

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:


hida_jiremi wrote:
Also, if people showed some interest, I run a Livestream station and would love to do some sort of community horror movie night to celebrate the release of Carrion Crown, possibly next week. More details as I come up with stuff.
I don't know what this means, but it also sounds really cool!

Livestream is a video-playing service that allows you to basically make your own online TV station. It has an integrated chat room, so people can chat about the movie or show that's on while it's playing. I've been running a horror-themed Livestream station for a couple of years now: Monster Hunter TV. Feel free to stop by at some point. ^_^


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Now THIS is what I am talking about. Great list. No techno-industrial gunk*...hurray!

*I actually like some techno-industrial gunk, but for mood music I want more "classical stuff", especially from the romantic period.

AR

Riptide777 wrote:

Manuel de Falla, Dance of Terror

Krzysztof Penderecki, Dimensions of Time and Silence

Krzysztof Penderecki, Polymorphy

Krzysztof Penderecki - Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima

Frederick Chopin, Funeral March

Sergei Rachmaninoff, Prelude Op.3 No.2 in C-sharp minor

Charles Ives, Robert Browning Overture

Edgard Varèse, Arcana

Bela Bartók - Out of Doors, BB 89 Sz.81 - 3. Musettes

Dmitry Shostakovich Symphony No. 10, mvmt. 2

Dmitri Shostakovich, Symphony no. 2 "to October" mvt. 1 Largo

Allan Pettersson, Symphony No. 7

Anton Webern, Variationen op. 27

Contributor

hida_jiremi wrote:
Feel free to stop by at some point. ^_^

Whoa! Neat! Bookmarked and Evernoted!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some of Agalloch's music might work well for this campaign too. I'd been planning on using some of their stuff from The Mantle and Marrow of the Spirit. It's not exactly creepy, but it is eerie which seemed just right for Harrowstone Prison.

Black Lake Nidstang


Prime Evil wrote:
How about some Nox Arcana?

Heh. You beat me to it.

Prime Evil wrote:
For something a bit more subtle and melancholy, you might try Tristesse from the French dark ambient duo Artésia (found on the album L'aube morne). Also check out Quand Vient La Nuit (When Night Falls)

Very nice. I'll be looking into more of these two.

hida_jiremi wrote:
Carrion Crown radio is made! Everyone who can, please hop on and start throwing in your lot about what kinds of music is scary! ^_^

Thanks for this. How do we add to the station?

Liberty's Edge

Riptide777 wrote:

Thanks for this. How do we add to the station?

Sadly, there's no way for guests to add content, but you can + or - the music that plays, which affects what gets played in the future. When it gives you the option to become the owner or leave it a shared station, please leave it a shared station, though--that lets me add things from my end if there are requests. I've been adding what I can get Pandora to recognize from this thread, but some things just aren't available.


Jonny Greenwood, There Will Be Blood (There Will Be Blood OST)

Bruno Maderna, Oboe Concerto No. 1

Luciano Berio, Eindrücke, for orchestra : Eindrücke

George Crumb:
Black Angels (performed by Kronos Quartet)
Echoes Of Time And The River
Most of the Makrokosmos

György Ligeti: (Whose music you can find in The Shining, Shutter Island, Eyes Wide Shut, and 2001)
Apparitions
Atmospheres
Lontano

Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares, Pilentze Pee (not "scary" per se, but certainly haunting in my opinion)


For those of us that can't get Pandora there is always Spotify.


Those of you digging the soundtrack to Bram Stoker's Dracula should check out Danny Elfman's work on The Wolfman soundtrack.

And for those moments when the PCs are busting in to stop a evil cult from completing rituals there are a few tracks from Jerry Goldsmith's The Omen .

TONS of great stuff here though... I've got to do some serious listening over the next few days.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

On the John Carpenter website, he has wav files available. Of real use are the three monster sounds from THE THING. Great for chaos beasts/Spawn of Yog-Sothoth.

Dark Archive

If the characters get Sarianna Vai to sing at the Outward Inn, I highly recommend The Wind That Shakes the Barley, by Dead Can Dance on Into the Labyrinth.

It's a haunting and beautiful purely vocal piece featuring a highly renowned vocalist (Lisa Gerrard, who many of you might recognize from the soundtrack to Gladiator). It's a guaranteed show-stopper.


I found an album called the 50 darkest pieces of classical music by the London philharmonic orchestra on Spotify, which I think is perfect for CC. There is also Philip glass (the candyman OST comes to mind), the soundtrack to a game called Darksiders had some good combat and bbeeg tunes. Some songs from the Devil may cry series of videogames are pretty fitting. There is also the soundtracks to the movie Van Helsing and it's animated sequel. The neo-classical gothic band Dark Sanctuary , although not very creepy, has some really beautifully haunting tunes.

Grand Lodge

I've been working on some general stuff to format into a website with suggestions, if anyone wants to help out and enter suggestions in that would be great and I'm hoping to get the beginnings of something real soon enough.

RPG Soundtrack Form

Contributor

Mortagon wrote:
I found an album called the 50 darkest pieces of classical music by the London philharmonic orchestra...

[SCREECHING HALT!]

WHOA! WHAT!?

I just found "The 99 Darkest Pieces of Classical Music." It looks like this is an MP3 compilation only (probably/maybe?), BUT it's on Amazon for $2.49 right now.

Downloading it now.

And there are a number of similarly priced "The 99 _____ Pieces o Classical Music." There seems to be a lot of repetition between these collections, but for the price and the quality of the first few I've heard, I'm cool with that!

Dark Archive

Anyone have any specific ideas for the Piper of Illmarsh's creepy flute solo? Seems like a natural thing to actually play during the encounter with the Haunt.


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Mortagon wrote:
I found an album called the 50 darkest pieces of classical music by the London philharmonic orchestra...

[SCREECHING HALT!]

WHOA! WHAT!?

I just found "The 99 Darkest Pieces of Classical Music." It looks like this is an MP3 compilation only (probably/maybe?), BUT it's on Amazon for $2.49 right now.

Downloading it now.

And there are a number of similarly priced "The 99 _____ Pieces o Classical Music." There seems to be a lot of repetition between these collections, but for the price and the quality of the first few I've heard, I'm cool with that!

It was strange, because when I googled it to if the album was for sale I only found the 99 darkest pieces album so I guess the one called the 50 darkest pieces is an exclusive spotify version or something.


Rusty Shackleford wrote:
Anyone have any specific ideas for the Piper of Illmarsh's creepy flute solo? Seems like a natural thing to actually play during the encounter with the Haunt.

I found this little piece on youtube which might be fitting


Kronos Quartet's Black Angels is great for creepy-crawly, high pitched violin moments. I used it for the soundtrack of a video I made in art school, and scared the pants off my classmates :D


I'm a little surprised that no one mentioned Camille Saint-Saëns' Danse Macabre; this just screams Carrion Crown to me.


Necromancer wrote:
I'm a little surprised that no one mentioned Camille Saint-Saëns' Danse Macabre; this just screams Carrion Crown to me.

Danse macabre is great, it's on the 50 darkest pieces of classical music album I recommended earlier. Paizo also recommended to use the song in a particular AP once.

Spoiler:
In Skeletons of Scarwall there is a monster based on that melody

Contributor

Mortagon wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Heh, I'm glad someone remembered that. I went a tiny bit self indulgent with the sidebar in that beastie since Saint-Saëns is one of my favs. :)

Fantastic stuff, though! I remember first hearing his work in Alone in the Dark (you had to find a record with "Danse Macabre" on it and play it to make some ghost dancers move). I thought it was SO cool I recorded the midi off my tiny speakers with a little hand-held cassette recorder- 'cause I was 12 and the internet wasn't a thing yet. Loved his stuff - especially "Danse Bacchanale" from Samson Et Dalila and "Aquarium" from Carnival of the Animals - ever since.

A good compilation CD of Saint-Saëns's work should totally be a staple of any RPG mood music collection.


I've been collecting Nox Arcana and considering using much of their work along with Midnight Syndicate for this adventure path.

Would Buzz-Works House of Nightmares work as well?

How about Dronolan's Tower?

keep the suggestions coming please!


Deaf Center is awesome, particularly the Pale Ravine album, which can be purchased for 7.99 on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Pale-Ravine/dp/B0018CCO6C/ref=tmm_msc_title_0 here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knAyrqqApQk&feature=autoplay&list=PL EBC0BD3EC4651C0E&index=3&playnext=4

There's a playlist for them on Youtube.

Kwoon - The Beast is also great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDg-ho0DK0I&feature=related


This thread is great!

Has anyone taken the time to do more than just site interesting songs though and actually point out what songs they might use for what encounters?

For example(s):

Spoiler:


  • Suggestions for music to run in the opening sequence while the PCs are burying the professor?
  • Event 2- the skipping song
  • Event 3 - Hungry stirges
  • Optional event - Rest in Peach (p54)
  • Optional event - A Vision of Imprisonment (p55)

Several of the events in Haunting are specifically music related - seems rather than just putting on a moody soundtrack it might be advisable to have some specific tunes picked out.

The list presented here, while very verbose, is extremely overwhelming to a DM who is trying to add music to his campaign for a first time. Specific examples I've found often go over well.

I appreciate any help you can provide.


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

Loved his stuff - especially "Danse Bacchanale" from Samson Et Dalila and "Aquarium" from Carnival of the Animals - ever since.

A good compilation CD of Saint-Saëns's work should totally be a staple of any RPG mood music collection.

Indeed. I feel the same way about Modest Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition suite. Speaking of which, Gnomus has a nice dark feel to it.

Rusty Shackleford wrote:
Anyone have any specific ideas for the Piper of Illmarsh's creepy flute solo? Seems like a natural thing to actually play during the encounter with the Haunt.

Off the top of my head I'd recommend Entr`acte (The Garden Awaits Us) by Black Tape for a Blue Girl or Pandora's Box by Laurel Zucker. If I think of anything more appropriate I'll post it.

Ullapool wrote:


The list presented here, while very verbose, is extremely overwhelming to a DM who is trying to add music to his campaign for a first time. Specific examples I've found often go over well.

I appreciate any help you can provide.

I'm planning on doing exactly what you're asking about, but haven't found the time to actually arrange it yet. As to your first question, I'd say Chopin's Funeral March and Presentiment of Death should work well for the procession. Hopefully I'll have something up for HoH within the next few weeks (likely on another thread, since I don't want to hijack Wesley's) and have lists for the other adventures as they are released.

In the mean time, here's a few more general suggestions:

Danny Elfman - Serenada Schizophrana
Coil - Dark River, How to Destroy Angels, et al.
Luciano Berio - Sinfonia: II. O King

Dark Archive

How to Destroy Angels brings back such good memories

Coil: unreleased Hellraiser soundtrack -Main Title Track

I have the cd at home, if you can get a copy it won't dissapoint. A full soundtrack (well, sort of - 6 excellent tracks, 17 minutes) which was made for but never used for the first Hellraiser movie.


Joël of the FoS wrote:
Example of use of rhythm: from The Ravenous soundtrack, a piece called “the cave”. It is eight minutes long and starts with a mysterious repetitive music (mystery and stress combined, slowly changing to stressful mood at about 3:20 minutes). I had timed my description with an increase in stress from a description with at 4:13 minutes of “the cave”, it was perfectly timed with the stressful mood taking over completely: it was revealed to them that a woman was lowered in a dog fight pit while the music changed to a bass sound, more and more frantic, with jungle-like drums a few moments later. And dread-like acid guitar sound at 5:43 with the werewolf revelation. Highly recommended! The anxiety of the players was near palpable (scene from Ravenloft’s Evil Eye)

This is the Ravenous piece I was mentioning earlier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy5xlq5lKKE

Pacing and knowing your game soudtrack is everything.

Joël

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Mortagon wrote:
I found an album called the 50 darkest pieces of classical music by the London philharmonic orchestra...

[SCREECHING HALT!]

WHOA! WHAT!?

I just found "The 99 Darkest Pieces of Classical Music." It looks like this is an MP3 compilation only (probably/maybe?), BUT it's on Amazon for $2.49 right now.

Downloading it now.

And there are a number of similarly priced "The 99 _____ Pieces o Classical Music." There seems to be a lot of repetition between these collections, but for the price and the quality of the first few I've heard, I'm cool with that!

Link?


Most of the below can be sampled/bought on I-tunes. They can also be found at Malignantrecords.com

Allseits- Hel
Arcana- Cantar de Procella
Arcana- Dark Age of Reason
Arcana- Raspail
Caithness- Apostasy & The Sorrowful Child
Caul- Sleep Night Death
Cities Last Broadcast- This Cancelled Earth
Collapsar- Collapsar
Controlled Bleeding- The Poisoner
Delerium- Spiritual Archives
Desiderii Marginis- The Evergreen Tree
Desiderii Marginnis- Seven Sorrows
False Mirror- Derelict World
Foundation Hope- Our God is a Consuming Fire
In Slaughter Natives- Enter Now the World
In Slaughter Natives- Resurrection
Kammerheit- Asleep & Well Hidden
Lacus Somniorum- Tideshaper
Lustmord- Heresy
Lustmord- Monsterous Soul
Lustmord- Rising
Morthound- This Crying Age
New Risen Throne- Crossing Withered Regions
New Risen Throne- Whispers of the Approaching Apocalypse
Per Aspera- Nil Desperandum
Peter Bjargo- A Wave of Bitterness
Phaenon- His Masters Voice
Protagonist- A Rebours
Raison d'Etre- Empty Hollow Unfolds
Raison d'Etre- Enthralled by Wind of Lonliness
Raison d'Etre- In Silence, Sadness, & Solitude
Sephiroth- Cathedron
Svartsinn- Elegies for the End
Visions- Summoning the Void
Will- Pearl of Great Price
Will- Word Flesh Stone
Yen Pox- Blood Music
Yen Pox- New Dark Age
Zero Kama- Secret Eye of LAYLAH
V/A- The Absolute Supper
V/A- Dark Ambient Radio vol 2
V/A- Radio Rivendell (book of war II)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Mortagon wrote:
I found an album called the 50 darkest pieces of classical music by the London philharmonic orchestra...

[SCREECHING HALT!]

WHOA! WHAT!?

I just found "The 99 Darkest Pieces of Classical Music." It looks like this is an MP3 compilation only (probably/maybe?), BUT it's on Amazon for $2.49 right now.

Downloading it now.

And there are a number of similarly priced "The 99 _____ Pieces o Classical Music." There seems to be a lot of repetition between these collections, but for the price and the quality of the first few I've heard, I'm cool with that!

Link?

Here is the link you seek Dark_Mistress.

The 99 Darkest Pieces of Classical Music


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Frankly, I don't think any horror-flavored D&D should be without at least a little bit of a crazy hack and slash romp through a Haunted Graveyard full of Ghouls N' Ghosts

The first one is really solid, but I might actually like the second remix better... it sounds orchestrated, and has a manic and out of control vibe. Both links are extended versions, so you can play them as long or short as you want for your players.

Grand Lodge

As crazy as it sounds, when discussing music for the game with my wife she jokingly said Thriller and now I've been planning a zombie encounter with a ghoul bard leading them O.o

Contributor

Drakli wrote:

Frankly, I don't think any horror-flavored D&D should be without at least a little bit of a crazy hack and slash romp through a Haunted Graveyard full of Ghouls N' Ghosts

Nice!

Paizo Employee Director of Game Development

While probably not great to play at the table, I spent a fair amount of time with the Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds album Murder Ballads while writing a couple of the back matter articles for the AP. Particularly the cover of “Death is Not the End” and the Nick Cave and PJ Harvey duet “Henry Lee”.

Dark Archive

Adam Daigle wrote:
While probably not great to play at the table, I spent a fair amount of time with the Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds album Murder Ballads while writing a couple of the back matter articles for the AP. Particularly the cover of “Death is Not the End” and the Nick Cave and PJ Harvey duet “Henry Lee”.

Excellent album, I also like "Where the Wild Roses Grow".

A great song which makes me think of the Marauder and his obsession.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Development

For table music or just instrumental music the carries some heavy moods, I enjoy Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Grails. Both do a great job of carrying a dark tone without it all being dirge-like or just silly.

I'm trying to go back and remember what else I was listening to while working on some of this. I always write to music and tend to play the same things or same type of things depending on the project.


The 99 Darkest Pieces of Classical Music was a fantastic suggestion; 'already had close to two-thirds of what's on the album, but the others are fairly rare and the quality is exceptional. I think this is an album GMs simply need.


99 Darkest classical pieces @ 2,49$!

Aaaargh! Can't buy it in Canada! Free trade between Canada and USA was signed in the 90's! :(

Anybody in US can buy it for me, put it on a CD and ship it my way?

I'd pay you through paypal.

I checked on Itunes, and it's only the 50 Darkest, not the 99, and I'd like the complete set :)

Joël


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Joël, send me an E-mail

Spoiler:
Tikael at gmail dot com
and I will see what I can do to help.

Dark Archive

I really want to try the music thing out when I run this AP. I've made a list of the songs that I think will work well for my group, but I have no idea how to make a cd or how to get the individual songs. Computers are not my friend. Anyone willing to help me out? I'd be willing to pay for the time put into it. If not, perhaps I'll just pick up a Nox Arcana album and see how that goes. I'm really looking forward to starting this.

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