One of my fellow players is playing an 11th-level alchemist with the new Master Alchemist feat from the APG.
As such, he has a +40 modifier to his Craft (alchemy) checks when making alchemical items, uses gold instead of silver for determining time calculations, and can make 7 doses at a time (at increased cost, but not increased time).
I'm worried it might be too powerful as he will now be able to overdose anything that isn't immune to poison. I've provided an example below:
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Now, let's choose a fairly cheap, but effective poison. Oil of taggit is cheap, can knock most anyone out with enough doses, and is rather ideal for out of combat poisonings (such as drugging a drink prior to a kidnapping attempt).
It has a craft DC of 15 and costs 90gp per dose.
So we raise the DC by 10 to speed up the crafting time (as per the craft skill) and do the math:
Taking a 10 on our craft check, we always get 50, which we then multiply by the craft DC, 25, to determine the progress in gold 50 x 25 = 1,250gp.
Since we create the item once this calculation equals the poison's cost in gold, and time is reduced proportionately for every such increment we go over the final cost, this means that in one week's time I can create...
...1,250gp / 90 = 13.8 doses in one week.
However, since I have Master Alchemist, I can create 7 doses at a time (for the alchemist's 24 intelligence), which means I've actually crafted 97.2 doses in just one week (13.8 x 7 = 97.2).
So I spend 2,910gp to create 97 doses of oil of taggit in a little under a week, enough to drug the local ruler and their entire court many times over.
The same character could make 7 doses of black lotus extract in as little as three weeks using the same methods.
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Assuming I followed all the math and rules right, I must now ask, do you think that poison crafting might be TOO fast now? Discuss.
EDIT: For the purposes of the above calculations, I am operating under the assumption that poisons are considered alchemical items.
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Don't forget swift alchemy which halves the time it takes to create alchemical items.
So assuming the rest of your math is right he did all that in 3.5 days, not 7... or only working 4 hours a day instead of 8.
Let me do a little bit of crunch really fast...
Nope your math was wrong, way wrong...
And I am going to scare the pants off of you with your own numbers.
Oil of Taggit only costs 30g to make a single dose (Which is 1/3 the market price). So the math will look like the following-
Craft result * DC
50 * 25 =1250g
Next you multiply this by the number of poisons you can make at one time (With one craft check) to find the total gold amount that you made.
1250g * 7 = 8750g
For half a weeks progress (Because of Swift alchemy) you arrive at the above number, so divide by 3.5 for a day's progress.
8750g / 3.5 = 2500g for a single 8 hour day in the lab and that amount of gold spent into making the poisons.
This accounts for 83.333^ doses of Oil of Taggit in a Single day.
Once he hits level 18 he will be able to make does equal to his Int mod, I will assume 10 in 6 seconds, 100 in a minute, 1000 in ten minutes, 6000 in an hour, 48,000 in a day (But only because you can only craft for 8 hours a day). Assuming he has the resources on hand.
But to answer your question, I don't think so, I don't see the harm in allowing the efficient crafting of poisons. Yes it will lead to PC's using them more, but they still have to pay the material cost, take the time to craft, and the saves on the poisons will still be pretty low.
That is until you start concentrating multiple doses of poisons together in a ramping process to make a single Oil of Taggit with a DC of 25. Of course without an accelerate poison spell/potion in their system it really wont do THAT much.
Also, nice double post. :)
If you think somebody is being too good with poison, maybe your GM can help with that. Certainly, in many cities poison is illegal. The alchemist in question is 11th level, meaning he's legendary in his alchemy. Any idiot guard knows alchemists deal with dangerous substances. Have the captain order a surprise visit for inspection. Then, you have either and arrested alchemist with all his poisons confiscated (potentially ending up in the wrong hands later, which makes his speed in crafting work against him), or bunches of dead guards unaccounted for, making for a wholly different situation. Trust me, I've arrested an alchemist already for his poisons, but he made it easier for me than even this.
No alchemist ability reduces the actual gold spent. Likewise, short of the capstone abilities, and technically not even then, nothing eliminates the factor of time.
So the alchemist still needs both time and gold, both of which are completely under DM control.
Local theives guilds would certainly want the alchemist to ally with them, by force if neccessary, untill it gets proven otherwise. Remember, your alchemist may be 11th level, but inside the game world, there's no such thing as level, just reputation and observation of skill. And even if he has a ring of sustenance, he has to sleep at some time.
Adventurers will be constantly looking for him if he lets it slip that he can produce it so fast. While it might look good on the surface, an adventuring party willing to pay a lot of money for only a weeks work, local government will certainly get involved in that with arrest and/or tax collection. And even if not, those adventurers want their product, so time must be taken off from adventuring. And woe to the alchemist who fails to deliver but demands payment in advance. Remember, the other party is a party of adventurers... if they would raid a wizards tower for 500g from the local villagers, they would certainly burn down your house for the money they paid you for 50 doses of purple worm venom.
Also, nice double post. :)
What double post? One thread discusses the math and order of operations, and another discusses the balance behind the new APG rules. Two completely different topics.
What's more, I gave them different titles. I'm not sure how they ended up with the same title. These forums are seriously weird.
The one in the Rules Forum should have been called "Poison Crafting: Did I Do It Right?"
Oil of Taggit only costs 30g to make a single dose (Which is 1/3 the market price).
I don't think that's right: Oil of taggit does indeed only cost 30gp to make. However, for the calculation, you should be using the market price, not the crafting price. That means you get a "mere" 27 doses in a single day (or 194 doses in a single week).
The craft skill clearly differentiates this by using the two terms "cost" and "price."
It does seem I overlooked swift alchemy. Thanks for pointing it out.
@OP:
First of all, 'poisons' are NOT considered 'alchemical items', even though both require the skill 'craft(alchemy)' to make them.
'Alchemical items' are all the items in the 'special substances and items' subsection, which is in the 'goods and services' section of the 'equipment' chapter. This is also shown in the description of the 'master alchemist' feat that explicitly says: "In addition, whenever you make alchemical items or poisons..." (emphasis mine).
This means that the class level bonus described in the 'alchemy' class feature of the alchemist is not applicable for the creation of poisons.
In the same way, the decreases in creation times from the 'swift alchemy' and 'instant alchemy' class features do not apply to poisons. These two class features only decrease the time needed to apply poisons to weapons.
The only way for an alchemist to decrease the time needed to create poisons is through the 'master alchemist' feat. This feat is available to any character with 5 ranks in the 'craft(alchemy)' skill - which is ridiculously low, if you ask me (especially since it supposedly makes you a "master" alchemist; same goes for the very strange 'master craftsman' feat - but there's a separate thread on that).
@OP:
First of all, 'poisons' are NOT considered 'alchemical items', even though both require the skill 'craft(alchemy)' to make them.'Alchemical items' are all the items in the 'special substances and items' subsection, which is in the 'goods and services' section of the 'equipment' chapter. This is also shown in the description of the 'master alchemist' feat that explicitly says: "In addition, whenever you make alchemical items or poisons..." (emphasis mine).
This means that the class level bonus described in the 'alchemy' class feature of the alchemist is not applicable for the creation of poisons.
In the same way, the decreases in creation times from the 'swift alchemy' and 'instant alchemy' class features do not apply to poisons. These two class features only decrease the time needed to apply poisons to weapons.The only way for an alchemist to decrease the time needed to create poisons is through the 'master alchemist' feat. This feat is available to any character with 5 ranks in the 'craft(alchemy)' skill - which is ridiculously low, if you ask me (especially since it supposedly makes you a "master" alchemist; same goes for the very strange 'master craftsman' feat - but there's a separate thread on that).
I'm not sure I agree with some of your logic here. If poisons are crafted using the craft (alchemy) skill, then it would make sense that any bonus/ability that you get that boosts craft(alchemy) would apply to their making of poison. Unless there has been an official ruling somewhere that I missed, which is possible.
I'm not sure I agree with some of your logic here. If poisons are crafted using the craft (alchemy) skill, then it would make sense that any bonus/ability that you get that boosts craft(alchemy) would apply to their making of poison. Unless there has been an official ruling somewhere that I missed, which is possible.
The description of the alchemist's 'alchemy' class feature explicitly says this bonus only applies to the creation of 'alchemical items':
"When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical
item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his
class level on the Craft (alchemy) check."
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
I'm not sure I agree with some of your logic here. If poisons are crafted using the craft (alchemy) skill, then it would make sense that any bonus/ability that you get that boosts craft(alchemy) would apply to their making of poison. Unless there has been an official ruling somewhere that I missed, which is possible.The description of the alchemist's 'alchemy' class feature explicitly says this bonus only applies to the creation of 'alchemical items':
"When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical
item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his
class level on the Craft (alchemy) check."
And where is the definition of 'alchemical items'? Because unlesss there is one, I'm agreeing with the Sayer of Nay that it means 'things you need Craft (Alchemy) to create'.
And where is the definition of 'alchemical items'? Because unlesss there is one, I'm agreeing with the Sayer of Nay that it means 'things you need Craft (Alchemy) to create'.
Check out the index of the Core Rulebook. The entry 'alchemical items' says pages 160-161, which is the aforementioned 'special substances and items' subsection.
Also, on several occasions 'alchemical items' and 'poisons' are listed separately ('master alchemist' feat, 'miscellaneous trap features' on p.419 and twice in 'mechanical trap costs' on p.423).
Check out the index of the Core Rulebook. The entry 'alchemical items' says pages 160-161 which is the aforementioned 'special substances and items' subsection.
Also, on several occasions 'alchemical items' and 'poisons' are listed separately ('master alchemist' feat, 'miscellaneous trap features' on p.419 and twice in 'mechanical trap costs' on p.423).
Unless you can find a statement that specifically distinguishes poisons from alchemical items, I'm going to agree with Sayer and Paul. The alchemist class is one that is not only designed to excel at poison use, but at the use of poisons the alchemist creates. Their use is a basic class ability, and should be as accessible as a wizard's spells or a rogue's ability to disable traps. If you don't allow alchemy, swift alchemy, and instant alchemy to apply to poisons, their production once again enters the realm of unfeasible time sink for a PC.
I don't necessarily disagree with the OP; after factoring in all the alchemist's class abilities, a character's poison production rate does seem impressive. But I don't think it necessarily matters, as such a character still has numerous obstacles to overcome in order to effectively make use of such a vast quantity of poison.
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An alchemical item is any non magical item that is crafted using the Craft (Alchemy) skill. Period.
This includes poisons, the only reason they are referred to differently in any situation is to signify that some rule applies only to poisons. Find me something that says otherwise and then we will talk.
@Ravingdork-
Ahh looking back at the rules you are correct on that bit.
So it would be 27 doses a day. This is some damn slippery math huh?
I think it's pretty obvious that 'alchemical items' and 'special substances and items' are equivalent. An index entry that refers to the whole set of pages (160-161) of the other term is pretty much the equivalent of a definition.
This includes poisons, the only reason they are referred to differently in any situation is to signify that some rule applies only to poisons. Find me something that says otherwise and then we will talk.
Look at the entry 'mechanical trap costs' on p.423. It specifically mentions that the price calculation rule is the SAME for 'alchemical items' or 'poisons' (it applies to both in the same way).
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I think it's pretty obvious that 'alchemical items' and 'special substances and items' are equivalent. An index entry that refers to the whole set of pages (160-161) of the other term is pretty much the equivalent of a definition.
This includes poisons, the only reason they are referred to differently in any situation is to signify that some rule applies only to poisons. Find me something that says otherwise and then we will talk.Look at the entry 'mechanical trap costs' on p.423. It specifically mentions that the price calculation rule is the SAME for 'alchemical items' or 'poisons' (it applies to both in the same way).
Eh, seems a stretch to me. Im in the camp that alchemical items are anything made using craft(alchemy), including poison. Otherwise why not just add a craft(poison) skill?
Regardless, even if you go by Alch's interpretation, the Alch would still have a craft(alchemy) check of +29, taking 10 to get 39 instead of 50. Doesnt change the math to much, though i need to sit down and figure out exactly how.
Eh, seems a stretch to me. Im in the camp that alchemical items are anything made using craft(alchemy), including poison. Otherwise why not just add a craft(poison) skill?Regardless, even if you go by Alch's interpretation, the Alch would still have a craft(alchemy) check of +29, taking 10 to get 39 instead of 50. Doesnt change the math to much, though i need to sit down and figure out exactly how.
It does change the math significantly, as the Swift Alchemy class feature halves production time for alchemical items.
I share the opinion that alchemical items are something specific, which does not include poisons. I am, however, unsure whether Paizo had this in mind when making the Alchemist class. As the APG, there are some examples of less than clear wording, so it hard to answer, without an official ruling.
EDIT: Looking at the master alchemist feat (APG p. 165) is seem quite clear that there is a difference between the two:
"In addition, whenever you make alchemical items or poisons using Craft(alchemy)..."
The last part would be utterly unnecessary if poisons is regarded as alchemical items.
If swift alchemy is valid for poisons, crafting does seem like a more than steady source of income for the alchemist:
Producing dragon bile poison (dc 26) let him produce 1800 gp worth a week. Multiplying it by 7 (master alchemist) and 2 (swift alchemy) brings a total 25200 gp.
Sold for half and deduction materials his profit is 4200 gp/week.
EDIT: Looking at the master alchemist feat (APG p. 165) is seem quite clear that there is a difference between the two:
"In addition, whenever you make alchemical items or poisons using Craft(alchemy)..."
The last part would be utterly unnecessary if poisons is regarded as alchemical items.
I quoted that EXACT same sentence just a few posts up.
I think this is a non-issue, but for the sake of clarity I put this question in my "APG questions" thread in the Rules section.
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Again, I think that section you refer to is there only for the sake of making sure players didn't spam the forums with threads named "Does master alchemist(feat) include poison?!!"
A good FAQ flag should do the trick. As for wording and RAW it could go either way but my position has already been stated so...
Incidentally, I don't really see the argument for poisons being made "too fast." The player still has to spend gold on it, and really, it's a class feature. Let poisons have what little use they can have :<
Again, I think that section you refer to is there only for the sake of making sure players didn't spam the forums with threads named "Does master alchemist(feat) include poison?!!"
A good FAQ flag should do the trick. As for wording and RAW it could go either way but my position has already been stated so...
If you had carefully read my post (it says "APG questions" thread and not "a thread only for that single question"), you would have seen that I just added it as a single question to a large bunch of others, so they can be efficiently answered together.
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If you had carefully read my post (it says "APG questions" thread and not "a thread only for that single question"), you would have seen that I just added it as a single question to a large bunch of others, so they can be efficiently answered together.
I know and I saw it as well, but I am trying to encourage use of the new messageboard feature they just integrated. They already answered one wave of FAQ questions and this is one thing that would be good to be located in one easy to find place indefinitely instead of being swept away to the forum archives.
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For use of poisons, does the player pay the 1/3 material Costs? Or are they in fact buying the say Oil of Taggit? ( Cost 90G - DC: 15)
Ok, if they're making the poison they pay 1/3 the cost, assuming the succeed on their checks then yeah its 1/3 the cost, otherwise they have to pay more because they messed up their ingredients.
Also say for a new Alc, who's skill in Craft Alch is at 9. And for the sake of simplicity he takes 10. Giving him a 19. He also takes the swift craft option.
So 19 X 25 = 475G
What i am understanding the next step to be is that you divide the cost of the Oil of Taggit (90G) by the 475 and that will indicate what his amount per week is?
Well, in this case he would be screwing himself. The check needs to exceed the DC so by increasing the DC he's making the check higher than he can succeed at by taking 10. So his progress would be 0. However if he hadn't made it faster then he'd have succeeded at the check. You just have to remember that the progress is in silver pieces per week, so for oil of taggit it would need 900sp before he'd finish. so it would look like this:
19 x 15 = 285 | 900 - 285 = 615
So it would take him two-three more weeks before he'd complete that single dose of poison, but it would only cost him 30 gp.
Another question i have been trying to figure out (now this may sound very very dumb to some of you but i am a new player to the game trying to GM for the first time) is how many potions do you get from say 1 dose. Wouldn't it be in fact just one at this level? Then later on when he gets the Master Alchemist Feat he can make more with his Int-Mod?
You only get one dose so one attack with that dose of poison. With the Master Alchemist then yes you can brew more at one time, but until you get that its one dose at a time.
9th lvl wizard makes poison faster...fabricate
9th lvl wizard makes poison faster...fabricate
Indeed. A wizard with Craft: Alchemy and the Fabricate spell will outclass the Alchemist time and again, unless he can't make the craft DC.
That's why supply of ingredients is the only real thing the DM should worry about. If Black Lotus Extract is to be made, there's probably some Black Lotuses needed. Getting them should be the problem, not crafting times.