You make a very good comparison, the issue being that you forgot about empower power (a feat), which costs 2 pp, doesn't require expenditure of psionic focus, and unlike the wizard's spells doesn't necessarily take any more resources than the psion was going to spend. This makes for a very big difference in the numbers.
That's wrong, actually. The very first line of the feat is "To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus."
And no one's saying wizards are better blasters than psions. They aren't. Psions are objectively better at blasting. But they're worse at other things, particularly (from what I recall) buffing, which is something wizards are very good at. They're not as good at battlefield control, either, which wizards absolutely dominate at.
Arguing that psions are unbalanced because they're better at blasting than wizards is like arguing rogues are unbalanced because they're better skill monkeys than barbarians. Yeah, they're objectively better at that, but that's not the barbarian's strong suit and isn't meant to be.
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I will execute each and every last one of you...
..with love.
Runs Naked though the thread, tossing tribbles at posters as he goes
You make a very good comparison, the issue being that you forgot about empower power (a feat), which costs 2 pp, doesn't require expenditure of psionic focus, and unlike the wizard's spells doesn't necessarily take any more resources than the psion was going to spend. This makes for a very big difference in the numbers.Basically, in each case you have to take the psion's max damage, subtract two dice and maybe one DC and multiply the new damage by 1.5.
A dedicated psion blaster should have this feat, and since a psion blaster can mostly just blast it's a safe assumption to include this.
The wizard can even do the same thing, but the cost is one "level" higher. Empowered scorching ray is one of the best damaging effects in the game. I can do a comparison of the two for their respective spells later.
Agreed, however, one of the reasons I didn't use metamagic or metapsionic feats is that I consider the "expend psionic focus" and the regaining of Psionic focus mechanic to be just as often used as preparing Metamagiced spells. So I considered the two to cancel out.
I'm not sure where you get that about Empower Power though, looking at the SRD right now and I see that you Expend Psionic Focus to use it, as I recalled. Here is the feat description from the SRD. And a link as well. Empower Power
"Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus.
You can empower a power. All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half. An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Augmented powers can also be empowered (multiply 1½ times the damage total of the augmented power). Saving throws and opposed checks (such as the one you make when you manifest dispel psionics) are not affected, nor are powers without random variables.
Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 2. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. "
You have a fallacy in there through ommission.
Magic items are expected to be sold.
However, not all magic items may be sold at all times.
Therefore wizards can fail to acquire spells in this manner.
The core game nowhere assumes one way or the other whether all magic items or no magic items are sold at any given time (Until Pathfinder where there is a table).
DMG page 137
Community Wealth and Population:Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and population......Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available...
I admit that does not mean every spell can be obtained, but most of them can. Once a wizard get's teleport there are not too many places he can't get too in the average campaign.
He ADMITTED that the psion can do more damage than the wizard, and is more powerful in that aspect.
Why do you keep focusing on the damage thing which is the worst thing it can do. A psion beating a wizard at it's worse possible thing to do really proves nothing.
He ADMITTED that both it and the sorcerer have an enormous amount of flexibility over the wizard.
Neither is more versatile
The Psion does not have the same limitations as the sorcerer and can make any of its spells as effective as its best spell.
The sorcerer does not have the same limitations as a psion either. When you have less you have to be able to do more with it. If the psion had less powers, but could not augment them it would be hard to justify playing it from a mechanical point of view.
He has failed to address in any way that spamming high level spells can fail to win encounters, and the fact that the psion can do this and in fact because of the proactive argument in the very article he linked SHOULD do this to be an effective character does nothing but hurt his case.
He said it should, really? He actually said the psion should own every encounter? You got a quote for that? Once again, and you can ignore me if you like, but spamming=a useless psion.
Random party member: Psion do something.Psion:Dude I was out of juice two encounters ago. Why do you think I been plinking with this crossbow, but it sure was nice how I owned the first 3 fights.
Random Party Member: I hate you.<----moments before the party is wiped trying to handle an encounter 2 CR's above the APL with only 3 party members that matter.
The psion has enough juice to go for around 3-5 fights at full throttle assuming full three round combats, whereas the wizard can do one and the sorcerer can do two at most if he doesn't get unlucky. The psion wins here. He also has the biggest selection of higher level spells, meaning he has the best chance of being useful aside from one discipline (Nomads, who have no real special advantage or disadvantage against specific targets)
You are assuming only top level spells win fights. Why can't a wizard own 3-5 fights if that is how he wants to play the character? People not doing it, does not mean it can't be done. Most of the time an unwritten social contract is what stops the better gamers from hogging the spotlight.
Firstly, there are some encounters where you CAN'T cast a bunch of spells ahead of time to preempt everything that will happen. Which is one thing everyone's been saying that is wrong. Plain and simple.Secondly, these archers had gotten a surprise round. This means if the wizard had said "I cast-" while the DM was talking, he would've gotten punctured with arrows just the same, since they went before him.
I agree prebuffing is not always an option, but a psion could have been dead just the same.
Surprise rounds only give you one attack, but if I were to always play my monsters realistically I would kill the caster first too. I just don't because people don't like dying. I will admit I don't know how many archers there were, but it would have had to be a lot.
Summoning is not always a good idea. No spell is always the best idea, and sometimes the dice gods just own you.
By get 'em later I mean punish them for using up all their pp.The wizard has 2-3 top level spells. If he just blows all of these to win an encounter that's 2-3 rounds of combat.
Save or dies don't usually win an encounter except against one target. In that instance, you're trading reliability for a spell that will either work, stopping a threat or be wasted. Both classes being discussed have this problem, but the psion can answer it by being a sorcerer and "typo"
Why doesn't "getting them later matter"? How many times would you have to be "punished" for wasting pp's before you learned not to do it again. I only had to do it once to a player.
Once again it is not only the top level spells that win encountersYou don't have to kill something to win the encounter with a spell. You can use a battlefield control spell to lock them down(black tentacles cough cough) while you just attack from safety. Encounters can also be social or puzzles. A wizard can contribute in a much bigger variety than a psion can.
The things that hold power points are no different than a wizard with scrolls are staffs or pearls of power. The psion also has to power those things with his own power points meaning he has to put points in there to be able to use them. If he is nova'ing he may have points left to put into them. Just like the pearls they are also expensive.
You are welcome with the Lazarus link. It has saved me many times, including this post.
Runs Naked though the thread, tossing tribbles at posters as he goes
I like tribbles. You can throw them into the granary and cause people to starve. They don't work so well as projectiles though.
"Ah but they do, The spell tribble arrows works wonders I tell ya"
Runs Naked though the thread, tossing tribbles at posters as he goesI like tribbles. You can throw them into the granary and cause people to starve. They don't work so well as projectiles though.
Demon Lord o' Tribbles has some preeetty big demonic tribbles to throw..
"Oh yes! We breed them with Kindori!"
I would like to compare using some of your spells, with the wizard empowering where he can as well. Since Cone of Cold costs a 5th level spell slot I will not be doing that comparison as my first example has the wizard run out. (The psion can empower for the cone as well, and the damage would be 108 for a loss of one save DC and a move action.)
I will also say that empowering the ice storm equivalent would actually deal less damage, so you've got me there. You can't nova with empower very well at low level.
The one thing I noticed that you did is that you gave the wizard more turns than the psion effectively by having the wizard use all of his magic missiles. I will give the wizard one extra turn in this instance.
By the way I would like to say I am wrong in a previous post, you do have to blow the psionic focus to do this, but by taking another feat you can do this each round like a sorcerer empowering his spells.
-Wiz10 casts a fireball for 10d6 damage each and two for 10d6 * 1.5 damage (1 3rd level slot, x2 5th level spell slots consumed). (2 empowered) Total damage: 139 (assuming 35 dmg average for the regular fireball and 52 for the empowered fireballs)
-Psi10 manifests 3 empowered fire energy balls for 8d6+8*1.5 damage each (for 10pp each). Total damage: 162 (assuming 54 damage average each)
Running Totals: Wiz10 (4/4/4/2/3/0), Psi10 (58 pp)
For this example, we will just fudge it and assume both the Psion and the Wizard hit with all their rays....
-Wiz10 casts 3 Empowered Scorching Ray spells for 4d6*1.5 fire damage twice per spell. Total Damage: 126 (~21 damage per ray x6 total rays)
-Psi10 manifests 3 empowered Fire Energy Rays for 4d6+4*1.5 fire damage.
Total Damage: 79 (~27 fire damage per ray x3 rays)
-However if the psion adds 2 pp per ray the total becomes:
6d6+6*1.5=40 bringing the total to 120.
Running total: Wiz10 (4/4/4/2/0/0), Psi10 (40) or (34)
Each trying to deal the most damage with their remaining spells the wizard casts three scorching rays.
14 for the six rays dealing 84 damage
The psion casts two empowered energy balls and an empowered energy ray.
54 for each empowered energy ball and (8d6+8*1.5) 54 for the empowered energy ray dealing 162 damage.
Running Totals:
10th Level Wizard (4/4/1/2/0/0)
10th Level Psion (10 out of 88 pp remaining) or (4 out of 88 pp remaining)
Assume that at some point during their adventuring day they encounter weaker enemies to utilize some lower level spells on:
Wizard casts 4 magic missiles for 5d4+5 damage each.
68 damage
The kineticist uses three electric energy missiles or one if at 4 pp (Not alike in damage type, but alike in that it is more reliable due to an increased save and the damage is closer to magic missile's. Concussive blast is similar but is a second level spell and can't multi-target like magic missile. If we use concussive blast anyway the damage is 3.5 per use).
3d6 damage, potentially against multiple targets but assume one.
30 damage or 10 damage.
10th Level Wizard (4/0/1/2/0/0)
10th Level Psion (1 out of 88 pp remaining)
Wizard's total damage done: 417
Psion's total damage done: 433 or 451
If the wizard doesn't get the extra turn he is at 400 damage even.
The above comparison proves that expending your power points as fast as possible is to your advantage in terms of dealing damage.
8 empowered energy balls or rays (54) plus a less empowered version at 8 pp (40) deals 472 damage in 9 rounds (around 3 encounters).
The wizard can cast 2 empowered fireballs (52 each), 3 empowered scorching rays (42 each spell), 3 regular fireballs (35) and a scorching ray (28 for the spell) during that time. He deals 363 damage (around 3 encounters).
The psion blows all his power points and deals 109 more damage than the wizard in the same amount of time (on average), or only 16-34 more damage if he takes his time. The psion actually loses out on damage if he doesn't go for broke with every power (If you look at the numbers, the 8 point ray deals about 40 damage, and could get a couple extra uses durign a number of rounds. The average damage resulting is only 440). The wizard can still do more stuff now, but the blaster psion really could only do that (or throw up resist energy or a wall), which was nearly a third more damage per round than the wizard. 54 damage a round for eight rounds is nothing to sneeze at either.
Basically, this is the problem. A psion can turn nine rounds from a tactics game where the monsters might hit you into D-Day for the monsters. His empowered ray/ball/missile is as good as the wizard's empowered fireball, and will have a better save as well. I don't think there's a good way to measure the saves accurately, but please consider that as well.
In addition the kineticist can switch up his energy types any time, meaning he's always effective. The wizard's biggest advantage here is scorching ray and fireball, which can both spread around damage very effectively.
If you notice flaws in my math, object to my reasoning or would like to compare other situations, please do not hesitate to point them out or do so.
DMG page 137
Community Wealth and Population:
Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and population......Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available...I admit that does not mean every spell can be obtained, but most of them can. Once a wizard get's teleport there are not too many places he can't get too in the average campaign.
I was hoping that had existed, though it seemed like I had dreamed it. Thanks for calling my bluff.
If a community has a GP limit it should also has a total value or something of that nature, meaning the items there cannot exceed that total value for the community.
Assuming we don't price local wizard's spellbooks, that's still not a very good rate for just buying anything you want
When the wizard gets teleport he's level 13. by that time he's immune to failing the check to copy a spell anyway and can begin getting whatever he wants, assuming he has the time and a VERY patient party, or they have a reason to go get stuff as well.
A psion beating a wizard at it's worse possible thing to do really proves nothing.
I dunno, I've always thought the wizard's worst thing to do was necromancy. If the psion did have that, I'm sure it wouldn't be as bad (And I would honestly not hold that against them unless they got a better enervate).
If someone would do a comparison of enchanter vs telepath in terms of continual effectiveness (how hard it is to break free), variety of effects, save DCs et cetera I would be eternally grateful and/or be your best friend. Remember that both classes love feats.
You are assuming only top level spells win fights. Why can't a wizard own 3-5 fights if that is how he wants to play the character?
My reasoning for making this assumption is that I am assuming the top level spells are the most effective. This isn't always true, but it is in terms of one thing: Save DCs. The save DCs for your top level spells will be the highest and therefore the most likely to work. If they have no save they tend to have a very good effect that can potentially win an encounter at that level. The wizard might be able to do this for two encounters, simply winning by throwing out high save DC effects, but the psion can do it for a longer amount of time even if he uses his next level down. Say he's basically an enchanter who really likes dominate person and heightens it. The enchanter's saves are 14+, 15+ and 16+. The psions's save can always be 16+ and he can usually get a couple more castings.
In addition, the psion could win encounters with lower level power effects as well, potentially. It is, however, to his advantage to try and confront the biggest threat with as much power as possible, as he can simply try and try again until he succeeds and every time the enemy is at its most likely to fail. Doing so wins the fight unless more than one of the biggest threats being faced is of around the same level of power, and even then he has still pulled his weight.
He said it should, really? He actually said the psion should own every encounter? You got a quote for that?
In Treantmonk's guide, which he expressed being the guide to an optimal wizard, the general idea upon which the guide was founded was the following: That being proactive was better than being reactive. Not to say that one should never be reactive. He expressed that the article would let me "see how effective wizards really can be." After reading that article, I realized that the reason the psion had been outdoing the same discipline wizard was because, simply, he could always choose to do it better, whatever it is.
I never said that he said anything of the sort. In fact, if the psion behaves like a Vancian caster he's actually rather weak, running out of spells more quickly and having a number of useless powers he may have to take. However, he does not, nor should he, act like a Vancian caster to be effective.
This is what I meant about putting words in my mouth. I said that he said a lot of things, but never once did I say he said what you insinuated.
I realize my sentence was diagrammed poorly and that is my fault, but please do not jump to conclusions.
Encounters can also be social or puzzles. A wizard can contribute in a much bigger variety than a psion can.
That is very true for the blaster, but the telepath can read minds, the shaper can... Make stuff (Not actually sure what the shaper does besides make astral constructs and cast grease, I haven't had time to look him over) and the Nomad can find some way around the obstacle (And I just thought of the Nomad teleporting his party past an annoying NPC... Regardless if there are any balance issues I would consider using this in some people's games. *end sidetrack*). The blaster? He could hypnotize himself for someone's amusement I guess. Variety, very true, but the psions can respectively perform a more narrow variety of tasks that are suited to their practices. That's one thing I would agree the wizard has over the psion: More options for out of combat stuff until I see a power as awesome as silent image. Maybe the shaper can do a lot of stuff like that?
Why doesn't "getting them later matter"? How many times would you have to be "punished" for wasting pp's before you learned not to do it again.
Because they have already caused the encounter to be overwhelmed, removing a challenge that you might have planned for the player to face and come out a little bruised from. And if them doing so is most effective, then punishing them for it makes no sense, as they're trying to be as effective as is possible.
Plus, even if they can't nova for three encounters, they only need to do it for one to completely counter a threat the party may have been unprepared for, removing the teeth from an encounter. Even if you try to stop the problem, the threat still exists.
On top of that, it makes the DM look like he's singling out a player or is being petty. Those are just social issues, but they're bad for the overall mood of the group and they could make the players think you have a control issue, which could make some people uncomfortable and begin questioning your decisions.
I'm not saying you shouldn't question the DM's decisions sometimes but too often causes the game to slow down and the DM or players to get angry.
The things that hold power points are no different than a wizard with scrolls are staffs or pearls of power. The psion also has to power those things with his own power points meaning he has to put points in there to be able to use them. If he is nova'ing he may have points left to put into them. Just like the pearls they are also expensive.
This is true: I didn't know about them having to refill them and that makes them quite a bit less useful. Their crowns are still very powerful, though, especially when compared to staffs. The staff can run out much more quickly in most cases, and they add the ability to use minimum power point expenditure from these items effectively. At worst: Even more nova Psion when you really don't want it.
Not fond of Vancian magic systems myself, one of the main reasons I don't care to play spell casters all that often... on the rare occasion I do play. Personally I can't help but think that there is a better way to handle a D20 magic system.
I kind of like what Green Ronin did with the Black Company magic system, it was fully customizable but the system itself was rather complex, not for someone who just wanted to fire and forget. As for Psionics being Vancian, I can kind of see where James Jacobs is coming from but I still find it irritating, why have an alternative magic system if it's just the same thing with different naming conventions and different spells. I hope whatever they do they make it different enough to be interesting rather than "I'm playing a sorcerer... er, I mean a psionicist!"
Your comparison above was a good one Madcap Storm King, I don't see anything wrong with the math, off-hand. As for why I gave the wizard a few extra castings at the end of my comparison before, the Wiz10 still had a few 1st level slots to burn, whereas the Psion only had 7pp remaining when they hit the low-level spell-power comparison. And yes, I do realize that there are better optimized attack spells both the wizard and Psion could be using during the comparison, as you illustrated.
Alas, I have to go to work. I'll check in on this thread later on.
Your comparison above was a good one Madcap Storm King, I don't see anything wrong with the math, off-hand. As for why I gave the wizard a few extra castings at the end of my comparison before, the Wiz10 still had a few 1st level slots to burn, whereas the Psion only had 7pp remaining when they hit the low-level spell-power comparison. And yes, I do realize that there are better optimized attack spells both the wizard and Psion could be using during the comparison, as you illustrated.
Alas, I have to go to work. I'll check in on this thread later on.
Your comparison was good as well, as it showed just how weak some of the psion powers were by comparison (A 2nd level spell slot for 1d6 damage? Yeck!). The wizard can definitely do more damage overall... but I've seldom seen a wizard of such high level not have some spells left when he goes to rest.
Not fond of Vancian magic systems myself, one of the main reasons I don't care to play spell casters all that often... on the rare occasion I do play. Personally I can't help but think that there is a better way to handle a D20 magic system.
I kind of like what Green Ronin did with the Black Company magic system, it was fully customizable but the system itself was rather complex, not for someone who just wanted to fire and forget. As for Psionics being Vancian, I can kind of see where James Jacobs is coming from but I still find it irritating, why have an alternative magic system if it's just the same thing with different naming conventions and different spells. I hope whatever they do they make it different enough to be interesting rather than "I'm playing a sorcerer... er, I mean a psionicist!"
See thats is the thing, psionics is not about an alt magic system, or at lest it should not be. It should be about psionics and what it does, not the system it uses to do it.
The psion/psychic [ man I am liking psychic} should be like the alchemist, summoner, witch and the like. Its not about what system they use but what they do. Mental powered class does not need to be about an alt magic system and I find that takes away from the class. It becomes about the alt system, not the class and not that classes flavor or feel.
that is one of the key issues with the XPH, it was just to much to learn for one pc, just tow much for a GM if it was not going to be used all the time. And I feel that lead to most of the issues. You had GM's and players "skimming" the rules and getting them all wrong.
If the game was psionics only, then everyone would have really delved into the book, but for the most part it was
"can I play a psion?"
"I don't know that book, let me look over it"
And most time you got a no or a fast skim and issues. I find it alot to ask a GM to not only read a 150 + page book for one PC, but also have to rework his game to take into account things that are outside of what mod designers or he himself have taken into account.
Whew, some posts racked up there.
All it seems to come down to is ... psions are better at direct damage than wizards, which we pretty much already knew. Telepaths are also 'better than wizards' IMHO at their speciality. At the rest, wizards rule the roost.
Whew, some posts racked up there.
All it seems to come down to is ... psions are better at direct damage than wizards, which we pretty much already knew. Telepaths are also 'better than wizards' IMHO at their speciality. At the rest, wizards rule the roost.
My experiences were with those two predominantly (Which makes sense, almost all of my friends liked playing powerful characters. Though I'm the only one who played a druid...) so after that I got nothing. The best power I can see for them is ectoplasmic cocoon, and if you gave that a save over each round like hold person/monster got in the 3.5 conversion it would be fine.
I can already tell the Nomad's not that crazy. And the Egoist is full of defense with a couple good spells (Psionic Restoration, which is like regular 3.0 restoration).
I guess my main problem is that when it boiled down to it they were 3.0 material, and I knew they wouldn't be well balanced to interact with the remainder of the material. Especially knowing my friends.
For the record, my apologies for being such an ass earlier.
EDIT: I would say I did prove one thing: That by the numbers the psion is heavily encouraged to spend his points as fast as possible, otherwise he is losing out on damage/potential mind slaves.
EDIT: I would say I did prove one thing: That by the numbers the psion is heavily encouraged to spend his points as fast as possible, otherwise he is losing out on damage/potential mind slaves.
That has been my experience, and biggest beef, with most point-based system: one large cannon is usually better than two small ones...
I was hoping that had existed, though it seemed like I had dreamed it. Thanks for calling my bluff.
If a community has a GP limit it should also has a total value or something of that nature, meaning the items there cannot exceed that total value for the community.
Assuming we don't price local wizard's spellbooks, that's still not a very good rate for just buying anything you want.
I am not talking about buying spellbooks. I always understood wizards to be very protective of them, but buying scrolls(which are rather cheap, and copying the spells into your book is reasonable. I still don't think this allows for every spell desired, but it allows for a large percentage.
When the wizard gets teleport he's level 13. by that time he's immune to failing the check to copy a spell anyway and can begin getting whatever he wants, assuming he has the time and a VERY patient party, or they have a reason to go get stuff as well.
My players normally do all their shopping at once so getting the party to tag along would not be that hard, and teleport is a standard action IIRC so teleporting to the big city is not an issue. Making the gather information check(1d4 hours, assuming the DM even makes you make one) will take longer than getting there and back. I would even buy scrolls above my level so that when I was more powerful I would already have them. It cuts down on trips
I dunno, I've always thought the wizard's worst thing to do was necromancy. If the psion did have that, I'm sure it wouldn't be as bad (And I would honestly not hold that against them unless they got a better enervate).
Necromancy is a good debuff school. It sucks in undead campaings, but for most campaigns it is pretty decent. I noticed a lot of boss monsters are immune to enchantment spell so the players don't just turn the BBEG into a puppet, but necromancy spells are normally given a longer lease. If I ever get to play again I will probably drop enchantment and evocation. I forgot you don't drop schools anymore, but they would be my opposed schools.
If someone would do a comparison of enchanter vs telepath in terms of continual effectiveness (how hard it is to break free), variety of effects, save DCs et cetera I would be eternally grateful and/or be your best friend. Remember that both classes love feats.
I think the psion can force higher DC saves more, but he has less spells to actually use, and then there is the nova issue, which I have never seen go well for any caster/psion in the long run. I think which one is better is a matter of preference. Some of the psions powers, such as Crisis of Breath or Crisis of Life can kill you. For a caster Hold Monster(Mass) an easily end a fight. It is not a direct kill, but you are still just as good as dead. Binding and Power Word Blind are not bad either.
My reasoning for making this assumption is that I am assuming the top level spells are the most effective. This isn't always true, but it is in terms of one thing: Save DCs. The save DCs for your top level spells will be the highest and therefore the most likely to work. If they have no save they tend to have a very good effect that can potentially win an encounter at that level. The wizard might be able to do this for two encounters, simply winning by throwing out high save DC effects, but the psion can do it for a longer amount of time even if he uses his next level down. Say he's basically an enchanter who really likes dominate person and heightens it. The enchanter's saves are 14+, 15+ and 16+. The psions's save can always be 16+ and he can usually get a couple more castings.In addition, the psion could win encounters with lower level power effects as well, potentially. It is, however, to his advantage to try and confront the biggest threat with as much power as possible, as he can simply try and try again until he succeeds and every time the enemy is at its most likely to fail. Doing so wins the fight unless more than one of the biggest threats being faced is of around the same level of power, and even then he has still pulled his weight.
Whether a psion uses a lower level power or a higher level one the effectiveness is dependent upon pp used, which is a blessing and a curse.
When a psion uses max pp it is just like using a higher level spell considering the affect it has on his resources. You can do it, but really is it a good idea? You seem stuck on the nova issue. I wish we could play in a game that I was DM'ing. The psion would have his moments, but the idea of maxing pp for every combat would done away with fairly quickly. I know a good portion of my pp's went to defense when I played. The rest had to be judged carefully because the next fight may not be the last one. That is why I don't think your idea of just using pp for offense and saying they can nova all they want is accurate.
That is very true for the blaster, but the telepath can read minds, the shaper can...
You see how you have to name different psion types to do all that. It only takes on wizard.
Because they have already caused the encounter to be overwhelmed, removing a challenge that you might have planned for the player to face and come out a little bruised from. And if them doing so is most effective, then punishing them for it makes no sense, as they're trying to be as effective as is possible.Plus, even if they can't nova for three encounters, they only need to do it for one to completely counter a threat the party may have been unprepared for, removing the teeth from an encounter. Even if you try to stop the problem, the threat still exists.
On top of that, it makes the DM look like he's singling out a player or is being petty. Those are just social issues, but they're bad for the overall mood of the group and they could make the players think you have a control issue, which could make some people uncomfortable and begin questioning your decisions.
I'm not saying you shouldn't question the DM's decisions sometimes but too often causes the game to slow down and the DM or players to get angry.
Players are going to curb stomp encounters you wanted to be hard, as a DM, psion or not. The reason why I think it does matter is that once he realizes what happens when you waste pp he will be less likely to do it again.
The thread is there with a wizard or sorcerer too if they choose to play that way.Being strategic is not singling a player out. It is mo more unfair than using difficult terrain to make sure the fighter or other melee type does not get a free path to the bad guys. It should not be done all the time, but it should happen sometimes. Having the amount of combats change keeps parties on their toes. Even if it were not a psion a caster could nova if he knew the DM only threw a limited amount of combats out per day. That is not a psion tactics. It is just a DM tactic. Clerics are more careful with heals and channels also.
I didn't know about them having to refill them and that makes them quite a bit less useful. Their crowns are still very powerful, though, especially when compared to staffs. The staff can run out much more quickly in most cases, and they add the ability to use minimum power point expenditure from these items effectively. At worst: Even more nova Psion when you really don't want it.
The crowns like staves are really expensive. They also take up a magic item slot, unlike staves. They take up the same slot that a psion needs to boost his intelligence in both Pathfinder and 3.5. You can put the crown on but all of your other powers suffer for it. I say not to psicrown, yet to ability boost.
If a psicrown can cause a psion to nova, why can't a staff do the same for a caster. It is actually better than the psicrown because the caster does not loose his ability score bonuses.A psicrown's power have to be within an manifester level of 5 for the lowest and highest powers. The staff can have any spells so let us recap
Psicrown:
Powers are limited to a difference of five or roughly 3 levels
They takes up items slots,particularly the one you need the most, and now all of your other powers will suffer. Sure you can change them out, but that may not be an option if you get jumped. In most cases the headband of intellect is the better option, and it is cheaper. The psicrown does not seem like an optimizers choice.
Staffs:
They can be augmented with feats, and use the wielder's ability score.
They are really expensive while doing this just like psicrowns.
They don't take up a slot meaning the wizard gets a higher DC compared to a psion wearing a psicrown since he gets an enhanced ability score + new spells.
In short, unlike the psicrown they are not a hindrance, but always a boon to have at hand.
Staffs >(greater than) Psicrowns
My players normally do all their shopping at once so getting the party to tag along would not be that hard..
Ok, not being a jerk here or trying to yank your chain wraithstrike..
..but when I read that I instantly thought, ''Aaaw, so cute!''
I can picture them now, all crowding into the stores..
''Does this axe say 'Feral and Angry' to you?''
''Oooh I love that cloak on you, it really brings out the magic in your eyes!''
''Hey guys, half-price healing potions - and they're cherry flavour.''
''Can anyone loan my 20 silver? I so have to have these boots!''
>_<
I am not talking about buying spellbooks. I always understood wizards to be very protective of them, but buying scrolls(which are rather cheap, and copying the spells into your book is reasonable. I still don't think this allows for every spell desired, but it allows for a large percentage.
I wasn't talking about buying them either. The issue is that a caster's spell book, as it contains valuable spell information, is worth money. If we consider this option, the amount of remaining funds in an area drops drastically for every wizard in the community. I am mostly OK with this, but it has the strange negative effect of causing areas with wizards to have less magic items, which doesn't really make any sense unless they're eating them all or something.
Anyway...
My players normally do all their shopping at once so getting the party to tag along would not be that hard, and teleport is a standard action IIRC so teleporting to the big city is not an issue. Making the gather information check(1d4 hours, assuming the DM even makes you make one) will take longer than getting there and back. I would even buy scrolls above my level so that when I was more powerful I would already have them. It cuts down on trips.
When you're copying down a spell from a scroll there's still a chance of failure, meaning that you might have to study the same scroll multiple times, and no matter how you get the spell...
No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell.
A whole day.
Wow, are we sure wizards cast based off of intelligence?
I mean if I was able to teleport I think learning how to make a floating disk made from force follow me around everywhere would be pretty easy to learn.
No matter how you slice it, the wizard takes a crapload of time to learn pretty much anything.
And that's after you take into account his shopping trips, the fact that he has teleport as one of his two 6th level spells at 11th level... Which is for running away or transportation.
Oh and did I mention that if you fail to copy the spell you can't get it until next level? Better not fail that die roll or suddenly you're suboptimal.
Necromancy is a good debuff school. It sucks in undead campaings, but for most campaigns it is pretty decent. I noticed a lot of boss monsters are immune to enchantment spell so the players don't just turn the BBEG into a puppet, but necromancy spells are normally given a longer lease. If I ever get to play again I will probably drop enchantment and evocation. I forgot you don't drop schools anymore, but they would be my opposed schools.
Necromancy has a few good debuffing spells, but for the most part all of its spells that let you do cool stuff are pretty worthless.
Ooh! Vampiric touch, that sounds cool. Too bad it's a melee touch attack with little to no payoff.
It's not until you get to medium levels that you even get to do something decent, like, y'know, raise an undead army that by this level is effectively really expensive tissue paper. And by that level why would you even waste the spell slot when you have a rare gem like enervation?
I mean, c'mon. Necromancer is the poster boy for being completely overshadowed by another class: The cleric. It literally does everything better that you wanted to do and has a whole extra list of options. In the meantime, you have enervate and a bunch of spells that keep you from dying like clone and magic jar.
It's good at some stuff, but it's really bad at a lot of stuff too.
I think the psion can force higher DC saves more, but he has less spells to actually use, and then there is the nova issue, which I have never seen go well for any caster/psion in the long run.
If the telepath novas he can contribute for the rest of the week by having enslaved monsters fight for him.
Casters can't really nova because they have this little thing called "Needing some form of preparation and not having twenty spells to choose from" to keep them from just exploiting the best option in a fight repeatedly to beat it utterly with minimal losses. If an enemy lights me on fire and I kill him, I'm still on fire, but I can just spend a round after the fight is over to put myself out. If I'd let him have another action, I would've been potentially more injured.
In the long run doesn't matter as much because I just reduced the number of rounds every fight needs to last and the amount of injuries that take place. There is not nearly as much of a long run now unless you draw me into 12 fights a day, which will kill everyone else just as hard and make everyone just as bored as if they were dead.
I think which one is better is a matter of preference. Some of the psions powers, such as Crisis of Breath or Crisis of Life can kill you. For a caster Hold Monster(Mass) an easily end a fight.
The old one could. But then again, you can save EVERY ROUND against hold monster. Crisis of Breath can automatically kill you if you don't spend a standard action to breathe every round, which you might as well not do since if you do you can't do anything and are basically nauseated for a round per level with no additional save?
So it's like stinking cloud, but single target and you can't escape from it. That's not balanced. Stinky cloud ends fights, but it can't freaking kill you. Just nauseate them. Don't make me as the DM force my creatures to lose all their hit points in one round because I now suddenly have to make this monster contribute, since it's going to die from your spell either way.
The fact that it's a very low level will save or die also irks me. It's basically better than hold person in every way except hold personing someone in melee with another person so they can just get killed on his turn. But if you don't do that the spell can lose a lot of effectiveness, unlike this spell.
At least just tell me I can't do anything instead of turning me into a mouth-breather.
It is not a direct kill, but you are still just as good as dead. Binding and Power Word Blind are not bad either.
If you're blind you can still cast spells, and as far as binding goes...
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
...
Casting Time 1 minute
Whether a psion uses a lower level power or a higher level one the effectiveness is dependent upon pp used, which is a blessing and a curse.
When a psion uses max pp it is just like using a higher level spell considering the affect it has on his resources. You can do it, but really is it a good idea? You seem stuck on the nova issue. I wish we could play in a game that I was DM'ing. The psion would have his moments, but the idea of maxing pp for every combat would done away with fairly quickly. I know a good portion of my pp's went to defense when I played. The rest had to be judged carefully because the next fight may not be the last one. That is why I don't think your idea of just using pp for offense and saying they can nova all they want is accurate.
For 9 rounds a day plus how many extra PP I have I run your game. You get to knock over minis and watch all your hard work go down the drain or hand their sheets over to me for my use. My defense and offense can both be done in the same action in most cases. Plus there's a whole rest of the party to pay attention to while the psion systematically takes out all the important things in the encounter.
You see how you have to name different psion types to do all that. It only takes on wizard.
I will contribute when I can and shut up and kill things the rest of the time, like a member of any other class. The wizard being able to actually do things that are good for roleplaying proves that it is a good class. It has multiple dimensions and has working mechanics that don't completely overwhelm encounters with him mindlessly blowing spells for 9+ rounds a day. They require planning in most cases.
The wizard can't do all of those things in the same day unless that's all he's doing that day. Or he obsessively keeps scrolls.
Aside from that, I have my bonus pp to do things with after my nine rounds of glory.
Players are going to curb stomp encounters you wanted to be hard, as a DM, psion or not. The reason why I think it does matter is that once he realizes what happens when you waste pp he will be less likely to do it again.
The fact that he did it once means he can do it again just as easily. What's stopping him? The DM maybe doing something? Meta-game concerns aside, that pp is not being wasted. that much damage or that many enslaved targets, (That much, umm, teleporting?) can be used in as effective and efficient a manner possible, disabling encounters before they become a concern.
The thread is there with a wizard or sorcerer too if they choose to play that way.
For one encounter where they have less than a quarter of the options that the psion does.
Being strategic is not singling a player out.
When you use language like "punishing them" it does sound liek you're singling them out in other ways.
Even if it were not a psion a caster could nova if he knew the DM only threw a limited amount of combats out per day.
And the caster could do this for around 3-4 rounds, 6 if he's a sorcerer with his one spell.
Clerics are more careful with heals and channels also.
The one thing I ALWAYS hear from a cleric before rest is "I turn all my remaining spells into cures" and they begin healing the party.
Plus healing during a fight... That's a separate discussion.
The crowns like staves are really expensive. They also take up a magic item slot, unlike staves. They take up the same slot that a psion needs to boost his intelligence in both Pathfinder and 3.5. You can put the crown on but all of your other powers suffer for it.
This is true.
If a psicrown can cause a psion to nova, why can't a staff do the same for a caster.
Because spells can't pay more charges to increase in potency.
A psicrown's power have to be within an manifester level of 5 for the lowest and highest powers.
If we're going with making your own I can do a lot with that.
They takes up items slots,particularly the one you need the most, and now all of your other powers will suffer. Sure you can change them out, but that may not be an option if you get jumped. In most cases the headband of intellect is the better option, and it is cheaper.
Having a giant storage pack for all your extraneous powers is still useful. For a class where part of the balance in involved with point usage, getting an extra 450 pp minimum to spread out over a long time is really really good and means you can just use the crown when you need to cast any of your non-combat stuff, freeing up all your PP for combat.
(Staffs) can be augmented with feats
Not metamagic feats.
and use the wielder's ability score.
They are really expensive while doing this just like psicrowns.
They don't take up a slot meaning the wizard gets a higher DC compared to a psion wearing a psicrown since he gets an enhanced ability score + new spells.
In short, unlike the psicrown they are not a hindrance, but always a boon to have at hand.Staffs >(greater than) Psicrowns
Staffs, being a held item, can also be sundered more easily.
Losing out on 1-3 save DC doesn't matter when you can just do the same thing all day.
I mean if I was able to teleport I think learning how to make a floating disk made from force follow me around everywhere would be pretty easy to learn.
Careful, you're almost applying real-world logic and reason to a magic, a defining element of a 'fantasy' setting!
O_O DOOOMED!!!
:D
//
This comparison of 3.5 psionics to Pathfinder wizards seems.. strange. The designers attempted to address many of the imbalances/flaws in 3.5 when they re-worked the magic (well, entire) system while 3.5 psionics haven't had the same attention..
..so it'd seem obvious that their will be balance discrepancies when comparing the two..
..and that's not even taking into consideration that we're comparing two different systems - they're *different* systems. There will be imbalances/differences between the two, some obvious but many that are highly subjective and a matter of personal opinion.
Anyhoo, GO GO GO!
I mean if I was able to teleport I think learning how to make a floating disk made from force follow me around everywhere would be pretty easy to learn.
Careful, you're almost applying real-world logic and reason to a magic, a defining element of a 'fantasy' setting!
O_O DOOOMED!!!
:D
//
This comparison of 3.5 psionics to Pathfinder wizards seems.. strange. The designers attempted to address many of the imbalances/flaws in 3.5 when they re-worked the magic (well, entire) system while 3.5 psionics haven't had the same attention..
..so it'd seem obvious that their will be balance discrepancies when comparing the two..
..and that's not even taking into consideration that we're comparing two different systems - they're *different* systems. There will be imbalances/differences between the two, some obvious but many that are highly subjective and a matter of personal opinion.
Anyhoo, GO GO GO!
These are both 3.5. Though psionics seems to be resistant to it.
I checked. That insane rule has existed for that long.
And while yes, a lot of this is arguing semantics, I don't expect there to be a clear answer. This argument's been going on for years, and this is just one more iteration.
My players normally do all their shopping at once so getting the party to tag along would not be that hard..Ok, not being a jerk here or trying to yank your chain wraithstrike..
..but when I read that I instantly thought, ''Aaaw, so cute!''
I can picture them now, all crowding into the stores..
''Does this axe say 'Feral and Angry' to you?''
''Oooh I love that cloak on you, it really brings out the magic in your eyes!''
''Hey guys, half-price healing potions - and they're cherry flavour.''
''Can anyone loan my 20 silver? I so have to have these boots!''
>_<
Now you just took my pc's bravado away, lol.
stuff I wrote a few hours ago
I need to start separating ideas better. After rereading some of this did not come out right. Oh well, time to see how everything was taken.
I wasn't talking about buying them either. The issue is that a caster's spell book, as it contains valuable spell information, is worth money. If we consider this option, the amount of remaining funds in an area drops drastically for every wizard in the community. I am mostly OK with this, but it has the strange negative effect of causing areas with wizards to have less magic items, which doesn't really make any sense unless they're eating them all or something.
Anyway...
That is an immersion issue which will vary from group to group. By the rules it is perfectly fine.My players normally do all their shopping at once so getting the party to tag along would not be that hard, and teleport is a standard action IIRC so teleporting to the big city is not an issue. Making the gather information check(1d4 hours, assuming the DM even makes you make one) will take longer than getting there and back. I would even buy scrolls above my level so that when I was more powerful I would already have them. It cuts down on trips.
When you're copying down a spell from a scroll there's still a chance of failure, meaning that you might have to study the same scroll multiple times, and no matter how you get the spell...
No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell.
No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell.A whole day.
Why bother with the chance to fail when there is
Read Magic
By means of read magic, you can decipher magical inscriptions on objects—books, scrolls, weapons, and the like—that would otherwise be unintelligible.
Is it cheesy sure, but it works.
It does not take a day to decipher the spell. It takes a day to study the spell, and at the end of that day the spellcraft check is made to add it to the wizard's book.Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level).
DC 15 + spell level is not a hard check for spell craft.
A level 10 wizard has 10 ranks +3 for being a class skill or 13 ranks in 3.5 which equals a 13. He most likely has an 18 for a +4 modifier for a total of +17.If he wants a 6th level spell inscribed into his book he has to make a spellcraft check of 21 meaning he only needs a 4 on the dice, and if the spell "fox's cunning" is available then he only needs a 2. At higher levels like maybe 12 the check is pretty much automatic. A spell a day seems like a good thing for the wizard from the wizard's point of view.
stuff about necromancy
Whoa, whoa. I never said be a focused necromancer. I am saying that to say the school is useless is not true, and it does have decent spells, and I definitely never advocated using the vampiric touch spell. I don't even advocate touch spells for arcane casters. If you can touch someone you are too close, IMHO.
more stuff about novaing and telepathy
I have had casters take control of powerful monsters. This is not a psion only trick.
Your excuse for not nova'ing is just that. Between their top two spell levels they can get at least 6 spells off that can win a fight, but just like the psion it is a bad idea, and psions have to rest also to get pp back.The old one could. But then again, you can save EVERY ROUND against hold monster. Crisis of Breath can automatically kill you if you don't spend a standard action to breathe every round, which you might as well not do since if you do you can't do anything and are basically nauseated for a round per level with no additional save?
How many rounds do you think you will get to save before you are trying to make a 50+ fort save? At least Crisis of breath allows you a move action to try to keep distance until you get help, assuming it is available. If you get held you ain't going nowhere.
If you're blind you can still cast spells, and as far as binding goes...
Fair enough on the binding, but most spells require to see the target so your list of spells/powers that you can use just got reduced by a lot. If you are a fighting type you just better hope that remove deafness/blindness happened to be prepped that day. This is not an instant encounter ender, but you can hear the clocking ticking, and it really doesn't matter if I kill you in one for or 3(insert other random number as needed) dead is dead.
My defense and offense can both be done in the same action in most cases....
Really? I would like to see that happen on a normal basis. I know there are ways to get two powers off in a round, but there goes that nova issue again. You try that every round, plus end the fight on your own,and I want to see what you have left to work with in a few more combats. If you don't put any defense up--->remember that arrow-filled wizard you told me about.
You are going to have to give me an example of a psion running through multiple fights drawing aggro( as my WoW friends say) and having the pp to see the next day.PS: I am not knocking WoW. I just don't have a D&D term that relates.
The fact that he did it once means he can do it again just as easily. What's stopping him? The DM maybe doing something? Meta-game concerns aside, that pp is not being wasted. that much damage or that many enslaved targets, (That much, umm, teleporting?) can be used in as effective and efficient a manner possible, disabling encounters before they become a concern.
If he is fighting the same or similar monsters with similar tactics sure, but any party will do that if you keep doing the same thing over and over again. You can't handle all encounters the same way, and the psion will be hard press to always have what it needs.
Both casters get more options than a psion, which means more ways to end fights.
clerics spontaneous conversions
Are you saying cleric spam heals in combat? That may be our next topic, for another thread of course, unless I misunderstood you.
Because spells can't pay more charges to increase in potency
A caster can use the staff to cast spells in combat(that he would normally memorize), while suing his daily spells to nova, or you put the encounter enders in the staff. No matter how you do it the results are the same.
Having a giant storage pack for all your extraneous powers is still useful. For a class where part of the balance in involved with point usage, getting an extra 450 pp minimum to spread out over a long time is really really good and means you can just use the crown when you need to cast any of your non-combat stuff, freeing up all your PP for combat.
That sounds good in theory, but doing X(changing items) at will is not so easy, unless players just always know and where encounters take place. I guess this goes back to group playstyle.
I stand corrected about the metamagic feat with staffs.
The crown being on your head does not stop it from being able to be sundered, and if I am close enough to a caster to sunder a staff I am not swing for the staff, sorry Mr.Caster. If I do swing for the staff it will be a disarm attempt so I can have it.
My experiences were with those two predominantly (Which makes sense, almost all of my friends liked playing powerful characters. Though I'm the only one who played a druid...) so after that I got nothing. The best power I can see for them is ectoplasmic cocoon, and if you gave that a save over each round like hold person/monster got in the 3.5 conversion it would be fine.
This is the direction DSP are going in.
I can already tell the Nomad's not that crazy. And the Egoist is full of defense with a couple good spells (Psionic Restoration, which is like regular 3.0 restoration).
Most of them are self-only, too. If they weren't I'd place the Egoist on a similar level with a transmuter.
For the record, my apologies for being such an ass earlier.
It's a subject on which we all get passionate, and we all have different experiences, no apologies are necessary - I am sure that I have fulfilled my quota of assish behaviour too!
EDIT: I would say I did prove one thing: That by the numbers the psion is heavily encouraged to spend his points as fast as possible, otherwise he is losing out on damage/potential mind slaves.
It's true of every single caster or manifester: if you blow your powerful crap at every encounter you cakewalk it. If you get things right then the best thing for them to do is use the minimum amount of power for each encounter, and save what they can for the real challenges.
It's true of every single caster or manifester: if you blow your powerful crap at every encounter you cakewalk it. If you get things right then the best thing for them to do is use the minimum amount of power for each encounter, and save what they can for the real challenges.
I will respond to everything else later, I just want to say this real quick:
The psion actually loses out on damage for not spending his pp in massive quantities. By empowering everything around 4d6 and higher he gains a certain amount of damage that keeps increasing. Previously I did a damage comparison that got me around 40 more damage for the same pp when I just emptied my reserve as fast as possible instead of playing along with the wizard (as fast as possible without overchannel because I wanted to keep it simple).
Yes, I can understand that - but if you REALLY want to dish damage take the wilder with energy powers and metapsionics and energy powers. Of course that comes at a price, but they can make great blasters.
That said, blasting is not the greatest use of magical power. It's fun, yes, but wizards and psions can do other things that are more use in a party with a decent fighter who can out-damage any of them in a full attack.
Yes, I can understand that - but if you REALLY want to dish damage take the wilder with energy powers and metapsionics and energy powers. Of course that comes at a price, but they can make great blasters.
That said, blasting is not the greatest use of magical power. It's fun, yes, but wizards and psions can do other things that are more use in a party with a decent fighter who can out-damage any of them in a full attack.
The fighter can't really outdamage them on multiple opponents, against creatures with vulnerabilities, at a range...
And if this is the 3.5 fighter we're talking about he can be outdamaged by a rogue.
Doing significant damage can be a lot better than buffing or inhibiting if you know where to send the damage.
Let's see.
It does not take a day to decipher the spell. It takes a day to study the spell, and at the end of that day the spellcraft check is made to add it to the wizard's book.
I know, I didn't say it took them a day to decipher it. The SRD says they have to decipher it and then study it for a day.
If we're being nice that's 8 hours. If its RAW, (I hope not RAI) they have to study the spell for 24 hours.
Fox's Cunning shouldn't help here as it's not active for the full time the wizard is studying. A +4 int item would do just fine though.
And there is still a chance, it's just much smaller at the level you're comparing. If he does fail, he can't get the spell for an entire level. And a whole day of nothing but studying is pretty ridiculous when you have an impatient party champing at the bit to get going. Especially if you want to learn like seven spells.
Your excuse for not nova'ing is just that. Between their top two spell levels they can get at least 6 spells off that can win a fight, but just like the psion it is a bad idea, and psions have to rest also to get pp back.
It's not a bad idea at all! Basically imagine if all the wizard's 6th and 5th level spells were a limited dominate monster for 1 day per level. Then add three more. You basically have AD&D summoned monsters now, 9 of them, that at the same time remove a threat from combat. That's more times per day than a sorcerer of the same level. Basically, you get more powerful save or die spells in a day than either class can hope to achieve. After dominating 5 or 6 people, you're basically done for the day, but can just order them all to attack your enemies and still contribute.
Wizards have to rest to get spells back as well, I'm not sure what you mean.
Your excuse for not nova'ing is just that. Between their top two spell levels they can get at least 6 spells off that can win a fight, but just like the psion it is a bad idea, and psions have to rest also to get pp back.
Crisis of breath hits you with a "Sit down and shut up or save or die every round" effect. Hold person hits you with a "You're paralyzed now, but save every round to shake it off" effect. Crisis of breath gives you a choice of damnations that is either wait for this extremely long duration effect to go away by which time your side has lost or try to act and possibly instantly die no matter what your hp is.
Nothing stops crisis of breath but dispel magic. Hold person can go away before 5 rounds have elapsed and probably will.
I am basically forced to keep all my monsters on the attack, since blowing a standard action every turn to breathe is dumb as it does nothing to help. Then, no matter if I have 10 or 10000 hp if I fail one fort save I'm dead.
That effect is WAY better than "You're paralyzed, try and shake it off every round."
Fair enough on the binding, but most spells require to see the target so your list of spells/powers that you can use just got reduced by a lot.
Actually, they just require line of effect.
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.
Ranged attacks have a 50% miss chance, and I typically use a scatter die for the area when a blinded caster is flailing about throwing fireballs, but that's a house rule. You don't need line of sight to cast spells, only line of effect (Which is blocked by a glass window).
Really? I would like to see that happen on a normal basis.
The best defense is a good offense. I can stun enemies while doing damage to them, dominate one and have him grapple another, make Shambly the Ectoplasmic Shambler sit on someone. Defense isn't a big concern when you take out the only things in the encounter with ranged attacks, so until you are suddenly getting targetted by a group of archers or have a golem come out of the wall next to you, defense is not a big concern, and may even be a bad play compared to what you could be doing.
If he is fighting the same or similar monsters with similar tactics sure, but any party will do that if you keep doing the same thing over and over again. You can't handle all encounters the same way, and the psion will be hard press to always have what it needs.
Both casters get more options than a psion, which means more ways to end fights.
The casters by no means has more options than the psion. The psion can make most of their powers as effective as a 6th level spell. For the wizard, if he has to glitterdust something, the save will always be 12+INT unless he heightens it. The psion can use whatever answers he has to the particular conflict at a maximum chance to succeed, whenever he wants to.
The casters get more options overall, but the psion gets more effective options that will actually work instead of being a waste at mid-high levels.
Are you saying cleric spam heals in combat?
Nope, I'm saying the cleric spam heals before the party rests to make sure that if they get ambushed they're all at full health.
That sounds good in theory, but doing X(changing items) at will is not so easy, unless players just always know and where encounters take place.
But if you have all the utility stuff in the crown you can just use it in between fights. If it's all combat stuff I can see where there would be an interesting dilemma.
This is the direction DSP are going in.
What's DSP?
Most of them are self-only, too. If they weren't I'd place the Egoist on a similar level with a transmuter.
The transmuter is pretty darn scary. When I play for fun I'm an illusionist, but when I want to destroy entire countries I'm a transmuter.
Yes, I can understand that - but if you REALLY want to dish damage take the wilder with energy powers and metapsionics and energy powers. Of course that comes at a price, but they can make great blasters.
That said, blasting is not the greatest use of magical power. It's fun, yes, but wizards and psions can do other things that are more use in a party with a decent fighter who can out-damage any of them in a full attack.
The fighter can't really outdamage them on multiple opponents, against creatures with vulnerabilities, at a range...
And if this is the 3.5 fighter we're talking about he can be outdamaged by a rogue.
Doing significant damage can be a lot better than buffing or inhibiting if you know where to send the damage.
Against multiple opponants the wizard has an edge because he has better area-effect spells (kineticists get OK ones, but they are generally a level above the wizard equivalents, other psionics get crap until very high level).
If you are up against a huge number of foes then they won't be that strong, and your fighter can Great Cleave through them like a reaper through the corn, even in 3.5.
The thing with buffing and inhibiting is, it stops them getting to you and doing significant damage by either slowing them down putting somebody else in the way. If you do direct damage and you don't one-shot them, they now have you as target #1 and they are completely unimpaired in mashing you.
Against multiple opponants the wizard has an edge because he has better area-effect spells (kineticists get OK ones, but they are generally a level above the wizard equivalents, other psionics get crap until very high level).If you are up against a huge number of foes then they won't be that strong, and your fighter can Great Cleave through them like a reaper through the corn, even in 3.5.
The thing with buffing and inhibiting is, it stops them getting to you and doing significant damage by either slowing them down putting somebody else in the way. If you do direct damage and you don't one-shot them, they now have you as target #1 and they are completely unimpaired in mashing you.
Great cleave is basically all the fighter has, and with a basic fireball you can hit more opponents in one turn than he can and you'll probably kill all of them.
Kineticists get a stun blast, which is probably one of the best spells in the game since it does damage and can stun.
Doing NO direct damage isn't going to stop anything, but tenderizing a bunch of foes for the fighter will end the combat in one round, as opposed to buffing him and then setting up some kind of barrier, which doesn't contribute nearly as much damage and results in more people besides you getting hurt.
Great cleave is basically all the fighter has, and with a basic fireball you can hit more opponents in one turn than he can and you'll probably kill all of them.
If they are that weak, don't bother with a fireball, a burning hands will do enough that the party fighter can just mop them up, and that is indeed a valid tactic. As I said, area effects are harder to get in psionics than in arcane magic.
Kineticists get a stun blast, which is probably one of the best spells in the game since it does damage and can stun.
Er ... they do? I don't recall that in 3.5 at all. Energy stun is as close as you get, does less damage and effects one thing.
Doing NO direct damage isn't going to stop anything, but tenderizing a bunch of foes for the fighter will end the combat in one round, as opposed to buffing him and then setting up some kind of barrier, which doesn't contribute nearly as much damage and results in more people besides you getting hurt.
That's a valid tactic, but there are others. When I was in the Skeleton Moon scenario a year ago, there was a shining example. Outside the tower we realise we have half-a-dozen cockatrice's approaching us (this is in 3.5, we are 1st/2nd level, so these are nasty), the druid says one word that changes the encounter from a possible TPK to a cakewalk: "Entangle." Then we just shoot the ones that break free as they break free.
The real ace wizards have is what they term "battlefield control", and most will take that over direct damage any day.
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Sorry to derail your derail here, but I think that I'm just going to disregard you guys' debate about the relative power levels of Wizards and Psions and post my opinion about Power Point vs. Vancian in general.
Anyway, I am a strong supporter of the Vancian system. I find the argument "but that's not how it works in fantasy books!" to be a tad invalid. We're not playing an RPG based on those books, we're playing Pathfinder. There is no more or less realistic way to magic since it's fictional, so it really comes down to what you think of it fluff-wise without the influence of your literary tastes and what you think of it as a game system. Personally, I like the idea of magic as a sort of science instead of an art. I like that instead of wielding general magical power, spellcasters know a number of specific ways of breaking the laws of reality. It definitely adds to the mystique of magic that it isn't just some malleable, flexible, approachable art; it's a difficult-to-master skill with unbreakable, codified rules. Sure, you can use metamagic to make your Fireball deal cold, electricity, or acid damage instead, but you're never going to be able to fly over a chasm or charm someone with it, because it's not Fly or Charm Person, it's Fireball. A Sorcerer may be able to change out the Fireball for something more useful to the situation like Dispel Magic or Haste, but he's still forced to abide by the laws of magic even with his new choice. Even people with innate magic, like Sorcerers, and those who get it from the gods or nature, like Clerics and Druids, have to abide by the same rules as Wizards, regardless of how they got magic. I think that Vancian spellcasting actually adds more fantasy to the system by making magic less of a casual, friendly thing and more of a precise science that takes years to master.
Gameplay-wise, I also like Vancian better than power points. It adds a certain level of strategy to Pathfinder if you have to think in advance which spells will come in handy on the upcoming adventure (or, if you're a spontaneous caster, which spells you'll learn in preparation for the rest of the campaign) instead of just walking in with a bunch of power points and improvising. By drastically reducing the flexibility of spellcasters, the Vancian system forces their players to actually think in advance about which spells they'll pick and thus adds another element of strategy to the game. Should the Cleric prepare a Water Breathing before going into the dungeon, or would Protection from Energy be a better use of that 3rd level slot? I think that the Power Point system loses that particular element of the game if the caster can just go in and cast any kind of spell level he wants within his limits instead of planning in advance.
I'm glad to see that Paizo will take Power Points out of Psionics and give us some nice new different-flavored spellcasting. If you like the PP system so much, just buy the book Dreamscarred is coming up with. There's no need to pressure Paizo into doing something they don't like when a 3PP is already doing what you want. We don't need two PP Psionics systems.
This is very true, Squidmasher - it's the ever-present balance between mechanics and verisimilitude. Vancian casting has worked for over thirty years of D&D, and that's cool.
That said, the great advantage of the character class system is that you can make different classes work on different mechanics, so if you look long enough and hard enough you will find something that can float your boat. I'm a little sad that Paizo are not following this up, but I understand their reasons for doing so, and with the PSRD out there, the field is open for 3pps to fill the void.
Anyway, I am a strong supporter of the Vancian system. I find the argument "but that's not how it works in fantasy books!" to be a tad invalid. We're not playing an RPG based on those books, we're playing Pathfinder.
This is something I always try to impress on people when they are first exposed to the Vancian system: It is not skill based. Divine and Arcane spells are formulae that create a tangible effect that has nothing to do with your own skill at magic. Heck, you can even fake it.
These notions have gone perpetually unexplained through several editions of the game. It wouldn't take much to contextualize Vancian magic so that people didn't freak out about it. I hope there will be a few paragraphs in Ultimate Magic describing magic as it is perceived in-world, and what to expect when you try to duplicate popular skill-based magic tropes with Pathfinder magic. I hope whatever far-off revision of the core rules includes this kind of info too.
To me, it's always been as simple as explaining to the players that the caster is aware of how many spell-auras they can hold (or access from items), how to trigger them. Can they hold their auras because of mystical initiation (prepared)? Or is it through innate magic (spontaneous)? Does the power to create auras come from personal skill at harnessing the raw materials of the universe (arcane), or do they borrow the limitless powers of the gods (divine)?
Context, context, context.
On the subject of psionics, my group decided early in the PF Beta that it was best handled as a sorcerer bloodline. It works quite well.
Weird, I could've sworn I had posted something... Ah well.
If they are that weak, don't bother with a fireball, a burning hands will do enough that the party fighter can just mop them up, and that is indeed a valid tactic. As I said, area effects are harder to get in psionics than in arcane magic.
They're not that much harder. You get a medium range energy blast that doesn't have quite the radius of fireball and a pretty decently sized cone. For non-blasters, yes, you basically get one.
Er ... they do? I don't recall that in 3.5 at all. Energy stun is as close as you get, does less damage and effects one thing.
Energy Stun's radius is 5 feet and it does the same damage as any other kineticist spell.
That's a valid tactic, but there are others. When I was in the Skeleton Moon scenario a year ago, there was a shining example. Outside the tower we realise we have half-a-dozen cockatrice's approaching us (this is in 3.5, we are 1st/2nd level, so these are nasty), the druid says one word that changes the encounter from a possible TPK to a cakewalk: "Entangle." Then we just shoot the ones that break free as they break free.
The real ace wizards have is what they term "battlefield control", and most will take that over direct damage any day.
Battlefield control doesn't work in a lot of situations. Against a bunch of monsters of the same type, sure it'll work. But...
1. Against another wizard/druid.
Now, this is mostly with the ring of improved counterspelling, but eventually if you get into a control fight the two of you will lock down the field so badly that nothing can happen. If someone tries to lock up your allies with a bunch of terrain effects, you mass fly them to escape pretty much anything they can do otherwise. Which means a lot of their prep is now useless.
2. Against a mixed group.
Anyone can tell you that wind wall is the best spell for stopping archers in the game. However, wind walling against a group with half archers and half melee fighters is a no win situation. Your groups will end up closing, meaning that all you've done is make sure the archers can't hit you instead of doing something better.
3. With a non-ranged capable group against intelligent foes.
This has happened in games I've played in more times than I can count. Someone locks down our foes with ice storm, wall of thorns, or spike stones (Just using the druid spells because they end up being all druids do anyway) and suddenly, the fight takes around three to four times the usual time. If our characters don't have line of sight cut off, we're going to toss stuff at our targets ineffectually while they start buffing. If line of sight is cut off, the battle just got its time extended to way past overtime. Enemies have to spend actions to mvoe out, and casters can cast in as well, true. But with the better spells like solid fog or walls you cut off line of effect, meaning you can't do that anymore. We've actually seen a party, post spike stones solid fog itself and then turn everyone inside the fog into a flying buffed out T-Rex. It was not a pleasant fight. Or the time that we had a group of devils start reading scrolls inside of a deeper darkness area, hitting us with blasphemy three times in a row. Or when a group of assassins got locked down midway through the fight? They hid. Total cover and a high reflex save meant they had to do jack squat while their backup squad arrived and made things really interesting.
My playstyle with druids or wizards is simple. One area control spell tops. You don't need spike stones and ice storm for any real reason, and in fact I've nearly slapped people for casting sleet storm at the wrong time. Strange how lower level area control effects can be superior in some cases, letting you cast in more easily, whereas high level spells are an invitation to enemies to have both parties fight fully buffed, which is rarely a good idea against anything but mooks. I've seen Evard's Black Tentacles boosted with heighten spell a number of times because it doesn't block line of sight and it's a good anti-caster spell, whereas solid fog got left because no missiles can go through it.
Not to say that there aren't times when you want a giant wall of fog between you and a foe, but if he isn't going to waste a few minutes going through it and instead decides to buff himself, he has a one turn advantage on you.
There is no best way to play when you're playing against someone who's seen a decent chunk of the game, and who has a greater dispel magic ready.
So is every enemy in your games running around with globes of invulnerability up all the time making one heighten black tentacles by one level since otherwise I really can not see the point of heightening them.
You're right. Derp. I must've been thinking of something else with a save DC that involved holding stuff. It wouldn't have been core, so throw that example out.
Also your party seems to be rather bad at the part of battlefield control where one splits the enemy forces into bite sized chunks.
We get a lot of foes that move as a cohesive unit (Or are just one guy).
a lot of stuff
Fighters can do a tremendous amount of damage even in 3.5. They just got picked on because they could not to anything else, and you could take a character that can do less damage, while contributing in other areas.
As far as the line of effect thing you can't target what you can't see. The book even says you have to be able to clearly see the target.That limit of a day for putting spells into the spellbook is put there so the wizards dont get too many spells. It would have been better to just have a real hardcap, but that is houserule territory.
Not all of those monsters will fail will save vs domination. Some will have SR, and a DM can always change tactics up to avoid one spell if the players focuses on SoD or SoS spells, but since either class can do that I don't think you can say the psion is broken for being able to do it if the wizard can do it also.
Which is worse between being paralyzed and Crisis of Breath depends on how close you are to the melee guy. If you have a few rounds to make saves being paralyzed is better. If you are right there then being Crisis of Breath gives you a chance to live.
If the psion boost his powers up to a sixth level equivalent he also has to spend the equivalent of 6 levels in power points.
Out of combat healing is not spam healing. Spam healing normally occurs when the party does not believe in defense and the cleric is turned into a healbot. If I am not in combat the cleric should be healing me.
Even if you have utility stuff in the crown, the chances of every utility spell you need are very slim, and you can't spend pp's on utility things, and spam your highest level powers. If the psion is spamming like you are describing that crown won't last too long, and they are too expensive to use to back up the nova psion, unless the DM ignores WBL.
As far as the line of effect thing you can't target what you can't see. The book even says you have to be able to clearly see the target.
Here's my quote from the SRD:
Line of Effect
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
I didn't see anything in the magic section about needing line of sight and the spell fog cloud even states that it doesn't need line of sight
That limit of a day for putting spells into the spellbook is put there so the wizards dont get too many spells. It would have been better to just have a real hardcap, but that is houserule territory.
I wouldn't have a hardcap, maybe a small table to make it so trying to acquire low level spells later doesn't take as long. But yeah, those are houserules.
Not all of those monsters will fail will save vs domination. Some will have SR, and a DM can always change tactics up to avoid one spell if the players focuses on SoD or SoS spells, but since either class can do that I don't think you can say the psion is broken for being able to do it if the wizard can do it also.
I can say the psion is broken for having too high of saves though.
Which is worse between being paralyzed and Crisis of Breath depends on how close you are to the melee guy... If you are right there then being Crisis of Breath gives you a chance to live.
But regardless of what you do there you just have a lower chance of being coup de grace'd with Crisis of Breath. You can act more, but if you do you have a chance to instantly die.
If the psion boost his powers up to a sixth level equivalent he also has to spend the equivalent of 6 levels in power points.
Yes... Which no one else can do, and he can do it with a larger number of abilities than anyone else. If he's dealing damage max expenditure is encouraged by the rules.
Out of combat healing is not spam healing. Spam healing normally occurs when the party does not believe in defense and the cleric is turned into a healbot. If I am not in combat the cleric should be healing me.
I already know this stuff. What do you want me to answer about it?
Even if you have utility stuff in the crown, the chances of every utility spell you need are very slim, and you can't spend pp's on utility things, and spam your highest level powers. If the psion is spamming like you are describing that crown won't last too long, and they are too expensive to use to back up the nova psion, unless the DM ignores WBL.
I think you could use them as a backup for the nova psion, provided you go through your own pp before dipping into it.
If you make a custom crown you could put in two of each kind of power (utility and main focus) and still be allowed a fair amount of sway with your expenditures. This would matter based on the psion in question naturally.