Though that depends on when you bought stuff. I bought the 3rd Ed books as the were released (at the original $20/book price). In that first year or so of 3rd Ed, I remember WotC products were balanced while the 3rd party stuff was really unbalanced. As WotC started running out of ideas but needed to push new product (I think this was with 3.5 or later) they started making more and more broken things (also noticed they were pulling the same thing in M:tG) while all the 3rd party publishers started getting their acts together and getting good products out there. I had stopped buying products before 3.5 had been released (and thought that 3.5 should have been published as a 10 page pdf errata instead).
Much - if not all - of the backlash against 3rd party was that they weren't "official" WotC products.Ironically, most of the truly overpowered stuff was completely "official."
I just find it odd that people carry that belief of "3rd party = bad" into Pathfinder - since Paizo was 3rd party themselves.
In both 3.0 and 3.5, the most unbalanced book was the PHB ;p.
I can see the iffiness towards 3rd party after The Great d20 Glut. I just think that there's been a lot of really good 3rd party developers that you can find if you give them a chance - the only difference in "legitimacy" between, say, Dreamscarred and Paizo is that more people have given Paizo that chance :).
In both 3.0 and 3.5, the most unbalanced book was the PHB ;p.
Moreso than Mongoose's splatbooks?
I loved Ultimate Feats, but there was some gamebreaking stuff in there... especially when combined with the Complete Warrior (which I know was WotC).
I think there are pros and cons to both systems.
I've found that the Vancian system to stretch my suspension of disbelief at times with the "forgetting cast spells" but I've been using it since the Red Box so I've gotten over that. I think that the system reguires more strategy to use for spell prep (a pro in my book at least), has the potential to out last a spell point system since you can't just keep throwing your big spells, and provides a bit more definition Spontanious and Spell Prep Casters the an SPS, IMHO. It's not as flexible and isn't as friendly to metamagic.
Yea, I think that is part of my big problem. That you forget spells when you cast them. But you only forget one memorization of the spell if some how memorize it twice.. ~What???~ That is quite a bit of suspension of disbelief that one, you forget what you have had so much time devoted to memorization, but you can memorize it multiple times and not forget the other memorization. I understand the flavor of it, you have symbols etched in power dancing in your skull.
Which is why I prefer a power point version where you can Have spontaneous casting of effects, with the option of having spells ready and pre-worked out.
The best part of having power point cast spells is you now have 'mana' potions that you can throw into the game. Mana potions are the balance of spell scrolls.
I may be silly, but I prefer being a 'flexible' caster then a 'power' caster, rationing my power by doing a spark here and there to down simple opponents and doing a party gate to get out of the way of a greater demon's path who barely flinches at either magic or the fighter's sword.
IIRC each spell takes up one page per level. What they should have done instead of saying you memorize the spell is to say the pages provide a ritual that you perform while selecting spells/studying that allow you to cast the spell later on.
PS: I never read the book the Vanican system was inspired by. Did they forget spells or just lose the power to cast for a certain amount of time?
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So it seems my original intent of this thread was lost. I didn't want a discussion of psionics and what rules they should use. Nor did I want a discussion about having multiple rule sets in one game system. I wanted people's opinions of the game mechanics themselves. As in, if ALL MAGIC (arcane, divine, psionic, prepared and spontaneous) used vancian, or mana, or spell seeds and factors (from the Epic Level handbook) or some other system from some other RPG. Which are magic systems you like and which are magic systems you dislike and why?
Though to the people who did respond with statements along the lines of "the problem with power points is that there is already a different system in place to accomplish the same thing", thank you for staying on subject. I agree, that is a problem with power points if they are tacked on to a game with a different magic system.
I like the spell points better personally. But not enough to make a issue of it. I just want all the "magic" in the game to work the same. Though a optional spell point system would be nice if done by paizo or a 3pp which could apply then to any magic system.
I'd wholeheartedly support an alternate magic system based on spell points (or something similar that feels more natural), but I would hope that, in that case, said system would be released before the psionics book, and additionally be supported in all official arenas (Aps, PFS, the works).
I like the spell points better personally. But not enough to make a issue of it. I just want all the "magic" in the game to work the same. Though a optional spell point system would be nice if done by paizo or a 3pp which could apply then to any magic system.
This. I have played and run both pp and Vancian systems. Having one or the other works better, especially with magic items and the like. I have gone both ways at different times on which I prefer.
What would you call such a system though?
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Now right there I find real troubling because then psionics just becomes a form of magic and not a biological ability. Psionics has it's roots in science fiction and often it was explained as a biological ability instead of a supernatural one.
In most of the classic science fiction books where Espers originally got their start only a few individuals would get the power and then it was really random on how it would manifest it's self. Often the power was just as dangerous to themselves as to others because it was very hard to control.
In the movie Scanners they gave a lovely explanation about how the mind powers of the Scanners had to deal with with the nervous system and how they could arc their nerve impulses over a great distance. If anyone is a follower of the history of Nikola Tesla you would see the logic in how this would be plausible.
Personally I would like to see it more like wild talents in which you only have a chance to have some kind of psionic ability because you are born with it.
In AD&D you either had psionic ability or you didn't. Only some creatures had it at all and it was a feared ability. In Dark Sun it was a means to help the players versus environment versus everything else in a world of low magic and technology.
By saying it is a supernatural ability you are just creating another form of magic. I would find this insulting to the history of psionics or also known as ESP because this is where it started. It would also open up a new can of worms because if it caught on that psionics was magic instead of biology then this would cause future arguments in the future.
Except you have the Asian mystic abilities of their myths. Which many of them would be psionics but in a more magical way.
In both 3.0 and 3.5, the most unbalanced book was the PHB ;p.Moreso than Mongoose's splatbooks?
I loved Ultimate Feats, but there was some gamebreaking stuff in there... especially when combined with the Complete Warrior (which I know was WotC).
I've actually met one of the former owners, who's married to a friend of my brother's. One of my friends had a game going and he and his wife stopped by for a visit and he saw one of the Mongoose books they were using. His response was basically "Oh god, you're using THAT book?!?"
Mongoose put out some stuff that was just horribly balanced, like a feat that allowed to sacrifice your AC to add to damage.
Mongoose put out some stuff that was just horribly balanced, like a feat that allowed to sacrifice your AC to add to damage.
...Was that before or after WotC published Shock Trooper (power attack, but lose AC instead of hit bonus)?
[Keep in mind that Wizards don't memorize their spells in the morning, they prepare their spells in the morning. Think of this as casting 99% of the spell in the morning and then suspending the energies of the spell in their heads. Later, as needed, they cast the last 1% of the spell. The energies they had been...
I generally see it as a wizard gathering the energies they need and shaping it into the form of the spells they want to have ready by using their notes. When they cast the spell they aren't so much as following the recipe from their memory which instantly vanishes but simply releasing the energy. This is how I justify the Vancian system working to myself.
Mongoose put out some stuff that was just horribly balanced, like a feat that allowed to sacrifice your AC to add to damage....Was that before or after WotC published Shock Trooper (power attack, but lose AC instead of hit bonus)?
I'm guessing before, it was 3.0, I'm not familiar with Shock Trooper though. Must be Forgotten Realms as that was the only setting I didn't pick up in 3.X. Did shock trooper have a cap? I remember people with the Mongoose dropped their AC down to 2 or 3 IIRC.
I'm guessing before, it was 3.0, I'm not familiar with Shock Trooper though. Must be Forgotten Realms as that was the only setting I didn't pick up in 3.X. Did shock trooper have a cap? I remember people with the Mongoose dropped their AC down to 2 or 3 IIRC.Mongoose put out some stuff that was just horribly balanced, like a feat that allowed to sacrifice your AC to add to damage....Was that before or after WotC published Shock Trooper (power attack, but lose AC instead of hit bonus)?
No cap, 3.5. In the Completes, actually, which a lot of people see as being "extended core."
Also, I am consistently amazed people see "doing too much damage" is unbalanced in the game with Wish ?_?
In both 3.0 and 3.5, the most unbalanced book was the PHB ;p.Moreso than Mongoose's splatbooks?
I loved Ultimate Feats, but there was some gamebreaking stuff in there... especially when combined with the Complete Warrior (which I know was WotC).
Natural Spell ;p
I'm guessing before, it was 3.0, I'm not familiar with Shock Trooper though. Must be Forgotten Realms as that was the only setting I didn't pick up in 3.X. Did shock trooper have a cap? I remember people with the Mongoose dropped their AC down to 2 or 3 IIRC.
It was in Complete Warrior, and no, there was no cap. But it did rely on a charge (however there were several ways to get a full attack on a charge - it's one of the backbones of the "ubercharger" builds).
It's not just a commercial reason though... it's that we at Paizo actually prefer the current Vancian system (be it prepare spells or spontaneously cast spells) for spellcasting. It's just "more fun" for us, and developing a system of rules that isn't something we're passionate about is something I'd like to see Paizo avoid. And it sounds like there's a lot of folks who agree with that opinion.
Hopefully, by using different but similar terminology (Psychic magic is one of my current favorites), we can get something worked up so that folks who prefer the 3.5 rules can still easily use those rules in a Pathfinder game. And since those 3.5 rules and Pathfinder are both open systems, if the market needs a Pathfinder version of the power point system of psionics, I'm pretty confident one will eventually appear. It just probably won't be from Paizo.
Huh? 'More fun'? Why?
The Vancian system is why we in our various groups dropped D&D until 2nd/AD&D, then dropped that until 3rd/3.5 which, at least, provided more options. So far, I like what Paizo has done with Pathfinder but I still *DESPISE* the Vancian system...possibly because I don't particularly like Vance's stuff either.
You and the good folks at Paizo you play with obviously enjoy it, but I find it...boring. When I read your first post on this, all I could think of was ... Arcane/Divine/Mentalism... welcome to Rolemaster. And even they weren't 'fire & forget'.
IMO, different magic *SHOULD* work differently. I'll probably be geting the Dreamscarred psi instead of your mentalism book. You folks will have to go a long way to sell me on that sort of retread.
Not to say you may not be able to do it...just I'm not going to be holding my breath in anticipation.
It was in Complete Warrior, and no, there was no cap. But it did rely on a charge (however there were several ways to get a full attack on a charge - it's one of the backbones of the "ubercharger" builds).
Ah, this one didn't require a charge so you got it on all your attacks and with no cap and possibly double damage from a two hander, I generally ignored the people using this feat when they calculated their damage. Even if it wasn't doubled I'd still say Mongoose won over Shock Trooper for being cheesy.
I like the spell points better personally. But not enough to make a issue of it. I just want all the "magic" in the game to work the same. Though a optional spell point system would be nice if done by paizo or a 3pp which could apply then to any magic system.
I too prefer spell points. BUT I also want different types of magic to work differently. That's what I love about 3.5 Psi.
If I had some of the design skills of the great folks at Paizo, and the right to redo the mechanics of the system, I'd keep the Arcane as is for the whole traditional thing, I'd keep the power points for Psionics, and Divine would be spontaneous. I even, for my world, have and explanation of the sources of power:
Wizards command the world to bend to their will with arcane formulae/materials/gestures/vocalizations and are therefor limited due to the inflexibility of their methods
Psychics see reality as an illusion and use their own internal energy to mold both the world and themselves to their needs
Divine casters receive their power from an external source, their Deity, to use to to further that entity's ends, allowing them to call up the proper ability as needed.
Yeah, those rationals do reflect the Rolemaster explanations, but I preferred them before I ran across them in that system.
Obviously, YMMV for many folks here. For the ones who don't like the same things I do, I hope that the eventual Paizo solution meets your needs. I'll probably even take a look at it. But I'll still be using PP Psionics, whether straight 3.5 or Dreamscarred. Hopefully, we'll all have the same amount of fun with whichever system we use.
edit for spelling
Keep in mind that Wizards don't memorize their spells in the morning, they prepare their spells in the morning. Think of this as casting 99% of the spell in the morning and then suspending the energies of the spell in their heads. Later, as needed, they cast the last 1% of the spell. The energies they had been...
I prefer this explanation; I regard wizards as using ritual magic: they do the rituals working from the complex formulae in their spell-books and then leave the last few words and gestures unsaid so that they can release the stored-up energies at a later point in the day.
That said, it's not my preferred method and very few literary sources use magic in this way that are not directly based on D&D games (I have jack Vance's series, it's OK but not that impressive). Many use magic more like sorcerers (Ursela leGuin's Earthsea) or use something that can only be described as psionics (Trudy Cavanagh's Dark Magician series).
Despite what some people are saying here, I can't think of any literary source that describes a points-based magic system.
Most authors (wisely) don't explain how magic works. Some imply something spontaneous like sorcerors. The Dying Earth (and Discworld!) have the memorising approach.
The rest seem to have a fatigue-based system, which IMHO is not represented by a power point system... because the casters don't get fatigued! The only RPG system that I've played that seems to represent this type of magic is Ars Magica.
The greatest disadvantage the power point system has is that it's not the system that everyone learns when they start playing Pathfinder.
We already have a system for handling spells (and make no mistake, if/when we do psionics, they'll be handled as spells, not powers),
[...] rewriting that system [...] is in my opinion a waste of energy and resources.
[...] If you're a fan of the point system, I'm confident you'll be disappointed.
Whether or not the disappointed fans outnumber the ones who won't mind or would welcome a move to the Vancian system (likely spontaneous casting like a sorcerer or oracle or bard) for psionics is one of the more complex elements of the problem we need to wrap our heads around. Because if the disappointed customers outnumber the ones who want it... that might convince us to leave psionics alone entirely and leave the development of them as a point-based system to a third party publisher.
It's not just a commercial reason though... it's that we at Paizo actually prefer the current Vancian system (be it prepare spells or spontaneously cast spells) for spellcasting. It's just "more fun" for us [...]if the market needs a Pathfinder version of the power point system of psionics, I'm pretty confident one will eventually appear. It just probably won't be from Paizo.
Huh?
Er...I'm not sure if this is the genuine James Jacobs or not. I mean... I respect the man and all, but, well... this is a troll, right? An April 1st joke?
No?
I'm not sure I'm understanding it right, then. Because it hasn't been written by someone trying to sell me something.
Let me put this all in context. I love the Pathfinder RPG. But I also love alternative systems (Pathfinder RPG is an alternative system all by itself, too). Several years ago, there wasn't the Internet and people could make their own house rules. Due to the fact that people discuss the game online now, I prefer when the alternative systems are published by the main game's publishing company. Sorta like Unearthed Arcana.
The above quotes took my expectations, rolled them into a tiny ball, and shot them through the window into the dumpster. So I'm justifiably dismayed. This is not about psionics or whatever the discussed system is. It's about words and intent. Let me write what I really understood from the posts' words and tone. Sorry if I misunderstood. Not sorry if I didn't.
"We won't use any other system because our system is what people learn when they start our game." When I started playing AD&D, all those years ago, I hated that system. With passion. I found it inadequate, and completely disconnected to most of the fantasy novels I could lay my hands upon. But I loved the rest of the game, so I adapted. Now it's one of the only things that have survived a couple editions, and it's still clunky to use.
"We won't do it any other way. If there are many people wanting it another way, we won't do it at all." is priceless. This is perhaps putting a lid on all those "psionics" threads, but a simple "Paizo has no intent to develop a power point-based psionic system." would have been largely sufficient, and less flame-prone.
"This is how we'll do it because it's more fun for us." might be appropriate for a group of people doing things for free, but I don't find it inspiring when it comes from a company, again, selling its wares.
So count me in the angry corner of the disappointed section. Alone? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
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I like the spell points better personally. But not enough to make a issue of it. I just want all the "magic" in the game to work the same. Though a optional spell point system would be nice if done by paizo or a 3pp which could apply then to any magic system.I too prefer spell points. BUT I also want different types of magic to work differently. That's what I love about 3.5 Psi.
If I had some of the design skills of the great folks at Paizo, and the right to redo the mechanics of the system, I'd keep the Arcane as is for the whole traditional thing, I'd keep the power points for Psionics, and Divine would be spontaneous. I even, for my world, have and explanation of the sources of power:
Wizards command the world to bend to their will with arcane formulae/materials/gestures/vocalizations and are therefor limited due to the inflexibility of their methods
Psychics see reality as an illusion and use their own internal energy to mold both the world and themselves to their needs
Divine casters receive their power from an external source, their Deity, to use to to further that entity's ends, allowing them to call up the proper ability as needed.
Yeah, those rationals do reflect the Rolemaster explanations, but I preferred them before I ran across them in that system.
Obviously, YMMV for many folks here. For the ones who don't like the same things I do, I hope that the eventual Paizo solution meets your needs. I'll probably even take a look at it. But I'll still be using PP Psionics, whether straight 3.5 or Dreamscarred. Hopefully, we'll all have the same amount of fun with whichever system we use.
edit for spelling
If all of them was different I would be more ok with it. But as of RAW divine and arcane are basically done the same way. I don't count Sorc as different enough system. So with 2/3rds being done one way i would rather psionics be done the same as well personally. Or all three of them to have their own system.
Since I know paizo is not going to go back and change divine or arcane, they my vote is to make psionics the same. I can always add spell point system on my own. Though i must admit I am a bit surprised no 3pp has trying to come up with one for pathfinder yet.
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Louis, yes, that is the real JJ. If you feel that strongly that you don't like seeing the inner workings of the company, and their thought process, then I'm guessing these boards are not for you ;)
Most of us here value the insight James, Erik and the rest give into Paizo, and appreciate that their decisions are theirs to make for their own reasons. Hell, if they make wrong decisions, they lose money. That is their problem, not ours to obsess over. Or really to get too upset.
After all JJ could have just said "No, we won't do a PP system unless someone pays us a lot of money for it". Same result, less soul.
Louis, yes, that is the real JJ. If you feel that strongly that you don't like seeing the inner workings of the company, and their thought process, then I'm guessing these boards are not for you ;)
Most of us here value the insight James, Erik and the rest give into Paizo, and appreciate that their decisions are theirs to make for their own reasons. Hell, if they make wrong decisions, they lose money. That is their problem, not ours to obsess over. Or really to get too upset.
After all JJ could have just said "No, we won't do a PP system unless someone pays us a lot of money for it". Same result, less soul.
As I said, I value the man and his friends and all the positive things they've done and the insight they give into the inner working of their company. I really do.
I just dislike the fact that a company would try to sell me something while at the same time saying "If you don't like it, too bad, we will never do anything differently, partly because it's no fun to us."
In the real world, if a sales rep. tells me that they only make polka-dotted cars because it's funnier, I'd flee the shop and try to find another. But there is no other shop now, since WotC won't do 3.5 anymore.
See what I mean?
They are making an alt magic system. What he is saying is you will only see one magic system in the products such as AP and such, but they do see the demand for non vancen and are responding to that, but alt systems will not become part of base classes is all.
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Okay...
"A psion has one spell slot of each spell level he can cast. As a free action, he can regain an expended spell slot by spending power points equal to twice that slot's level."
Now power points use spell slots, too. So by your logic, power points are part of the existing Vancian system.
Edit:
Originally, I was just posting this as a counterexample. But on second thought, I think it qualifies as a legitimate suggestion. You could create a psionic spontaneous caster with one spell slot per spell level, and with power points that aren't used to cast spells but to recharge expended spell slots independent of casting.
So there you have it. A Vancian 'psion' with power points. Problem solved.
Ha ha.
That is elegant.
I've never understood why people insist these are two separate systems.
All casters are Power Point users. The only thing is, the stuffy wizards have spent too long in their lecture halls, learning by rote like parrots, and have no flexibility, and the clerics, druids, paladins and rangers don't understand magic at all; they're superstitious, sycophantic lapdogs, who take what their patron gives them. So every day, they spend their Power Points to prepare spells of set levels. Their brains are set out in a symbolic 'ziggurat' of ascending compartments of greater and greater power.
Bards, sorcerors and other spontaneous casters have a more free and easy approach, though they still carry some baggage from their 'learned' wizard establishments in that they have trained their minds to hold stages of certain power point levels, they can more easily improvise what these packages are filled with at the moment of casting.
The mentalists of the psionic tradition scoff at these amateurs, as they are the ones who have turned their third eye inward, and seen the truth of the universe within their own souls. As such, they live and breathe magic, since it is powered by their own true selves, and needs no mindless drudgery of wizardry, nor the unthinking slavery of the cleric, but is a simple matter of willing the universe to shape itself to the user's will, at the very moment he wills it.
ZOMG! BR0k3n!!!!
Where will it end?!!!?!!eleventy-one!!!
Next, you'll have characters 'raging', or maybe even declaring a 'charge' when they power attack!!!!
Oh, right, I forgot that it was a law of the universe that every 3PP puts out perfectly balanced.
Note that I said "some stuff". They put out a lot of books and some of it was enough to make a former owner cringe. There was enough 3PP books that were put out so quickly that there was a lot of poorly balanced things floating around, so I can understand if a DM said no to 3pp in general.
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Now right there I find real troubling because then psionics just becomes a form of magic and not a biological ability. Psionics has it's roots in science fiction and often it was explained as a biological...I am sure Paizo will come up with excellently written flavor or “Fluff”. May I suggest a compromise? Don’t bother calling the “Psionic” materiel “psionic”. Call it Vudrani, call it Castrovali, Just don't call it psioinics. Say it is a magical tradition they have developed over thousands of years, and is “unique” to their civilization. This way you can introduce some new materials, and avoid upsetting us vocal psionic fans.This is actually a route we are VERY strongly considering. For sure, we won't be updating the psion or the soulknife classes. First, if we change the way psionics work, those classes would have to change so much that they'd be too different. Second (and more important to me) I want our "psionic" classes to be identifiable by their names by ANYONE. You ask a fan of fantasy genre what a "soulknife" or a "wilder" is and they won't know unless they just happen to be 3.5 psionics fans. It's MUCH better to do new psionic classes that are themed on concepts that already exist in mythology or popular culture. Classes with names like "Pyrokineticist" or "Mesmerist" or "Fakir" or "Telepath" or "Telekinetic" or "Spiritualist" are MUCH stronger base class concepts to support psionic rules.
Or whatever we call them. Something like "mind magic" or whatever. Something that gets across the point that it's the same TYPE of thing as psionics, but by not calling them psionics we:
a) Avoid the stigma that its a science fiction element invading a fantasy game.
b) Don't "overwrite" the psionic concepts in 3.5's psionic rules, so that someone who wants to use those rules converted to Pathfinder RPG (perhaps using some new 3rd party supplement from the future, who knows?) they don't feel like they're some sort of rules outlaw.
Intosaithwebb.
I understand you desire to keep the explanation of psioncis as a biological and evolutionary phenomenon.
This is also many people’s objection to psionics. As James Jacobs put it “avoid the stigma that its (psionics) is a science fiction element invading a fantasy game”
With psionics, another impasse is the power point system. For psionic fans like myself, the power point system is one of the most attractive elements of the psionic system. It offers variety, and an alternative to the vancian spell slot system. For many others it is precisely because it is a different system that they don’t want to have anything to do with psionics.
From my perspective, there would be no point in doing psionics without power points.
With a little creativity, I can already take a sorcerer, and with a little bit of creative flavor, and the right selection of spells, simulate a mind reader, a telekenetist a pyro knetesist. I could even take a scroll, use the same mechanics, but simply call it a power crystal. So for me, with out power points, there is no point in a psionics revision. It can already be done with the existing spell slot system.
In terms of Wild talents, the wonderful thing about this game, is you can tailor it to fit your needs. It seems it would be fairly easy to simply take strait out of the first edition AD&D book a percentage chance to see if people have psionics or not. We can do this ourselves and we don’t have to wait for someone to publish something for us.
I for one think that there is an excellent compromise on the table. Let Dream Scarred press do Pathfinder Psionics. Paozo can do something themselves 3 to 4 years from now.
The staff at Paizo seems to like the flavor of psionics, not the mechanics.
The idea of making “vudrani” themed classes like “fakir” or “yogi” I find to be a fascinating one.
Anyways those are just my two cents
Despite what some people are saying here, I can't think of any literary source that describes a points-based magic system.
Most authors (wisely) don't explain how magic works. Some imply something spontaneous like sorcerors. The Dying Earth (and Discworld!) have the memorising approach.
The rest seem to have a fatigue-based system, which IMHO is not represented by a power point system... because the casters don't get fatigued! The only RPG system that I've played that seems to represent this type of magic is Ars Magica.
Hero system also uses fatigue points, but these are largely what spell points are also meant to represent in large part - usually they are in systems that don't have fatigue points.
I find that the discussion of what is more realistic and how magic is portrayed is kind of interesting. I think Vancian and Spell Points can be discribed as doing the same thing, but Vancian is designed to stretch out spell casting so that you can't just blow your wad throwing three fireballs. Having 1 Fireball, 2 Scorching Rays, and 3 Magic Missiles makes it more likely you'll use spells over more encounters. I see it as more of a game design element vs "realism".
Spell Pool = fatique doesn't really work for me as you don't get tired as you cast (also see above). Then again you can fight at your full ability, barring status effects, until dropped to 0 HP or below. Now you can say Hit Points represents the energy you expend by avoiding a blow or taking a shot on your armor, but at that point it makes things like Sneak Attack kind of silly. "I almost stabbed him in the lung, causing him to drown on his own blood but, even though he was unaware I was there, he dodged at the last second. At least it winded him."
Realism and D&D never really saw eye to eye, and that's before you got to the monsters.
Also keep in mind how the perception of magic has changed over the ages. It's sort of like vampires who went from horrible demonic monsters to sensetive guys with super powers (like stalking a chick and not having her call the cops) who might have to drink blood occassionally but they feel real bad about it. Merlin didn't step out when the Saxons showed up and said "don't worry Arthur, a few fireballs and a cloud kill will handle this. You boys go back to Camelot, I got this." Generally wizards and sorcerers served as advisors or corruptors rather then action stars flexing their magic muscles.
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Oh, right, I forgot that it was a law of the universe that every 3PP puts out perfectly balanced.
I may have been slightly facetious, there.
If the ability in question had no cap, then it might have been broken, though the jury's still out on that (see the Prof's post).
In any case, if it did cause a problem in your game, it's the lack of a cap that's responsible, not the concept of swapping AC for damage, or any other martial stance that compromises one bonus for another (Power Attack, Expertise, defensive fighting, etc), all of which I've been allowing at my table for over a quarter century.
It sounded like you were decrying the idea of such options in principle.
Keep in mind that Wizards don't memorize their spells in the morning, they prepare their spells in the morning. Think of this as casting 99% of the spell in the morning and then suspending the energies of the spell in their heads. Later, as needed, they cast the last 1% of the spell. The energies they had been...I prefer this explanation...
I though this was the only interpretation from the beginning. The new semantics illustrate this better, and I truly prefer the words "spell preparation" and "exhausting a spell slot" over "spell memorization" and "forgetting the spell".
That being said, I like to interpret that casting a wizard's spell takes 15 minutes, from the following statement:
If he wants to prepare all his spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.
This being rather inefficient in battle, Wizards have developed a method of casting spells more rapidly. This method - called spell preparation - consist of going into extra troubles to carefully pre-cast the spell and leave the triggering formula unfinished. So in reality, the wizard doesn't cast the spell, he/she releases the already cast spell.
So in the end, the Vancian is all about fluff, but could work equally well with all kinds of game mechanics. An other element of Vancian magic that is very popular in RPGs is that magic is packaged in what we call spells. Why are fireball and delayed blast fireball two different spells? Why isn't one the scaled version of the first one, or a metamagicked fireball? why isn't fireball a prerequisite for delayed blast fireball? These are all elements of Vancian fluff which ultimately have a bigger impact on the magic system than the use of spell slots vs spell points or the fact that spells must be prepared or spontaneously cast.
I may have been slightly facetious, there.
If the ability in question had no cap, then it might have been broken, though the jury's still out on that (see the Prof's post).
In any case, if it did cause a problem in your game, it's the lack of a cap that's responsible, not the concept of swapping AC for damage, or any other martial stance that compromises one bonus for another (Power Attack, Expertise, defensive fighting, etc), all of which I've been allowing at my table for over a quarter century.It sounded like you were decrying the idea of such options in principle.
I just thought you were trolling as the feat in question was discussed a few post below. It does not have a cap other then you can't drop below a 1-3 AC (which if your going to drop AC, why not go big), you didn't need to charge like the Shock Trooper feat, and it stacked with Power Attack (I do remember that).
Now I don't really have a problem with this concept. What I might do is you can drop 2 points of AC for 1 point of damage (-10/+5 Max) and you couldn't stack it with power attack, but that's just me.
All game systems have their exploits, over sights, and just bad ideas unless they are rules light games. I found a lot more of these in Mongoose then I did in the WotC books (I'm not digging out the red class books to list them, sorry). I can understand a blanket ban on 3pp. I also have seen several of Prof.C.'s posts and I don't know why (s)he doesn't go to 4th Ed, find a retro clone (s)he likes, or finds a different system considering how much (s)he seems to dislike about 3.X/PFRPG.
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I just dislike the fact that a company would try to sell me something while at the same time saying "If you don't like it, too bad, we will never do anything differently, partly because it's no fun to us."
In the real world, if a sales rep. tells me that they only make polka-dotted cars because it's funnier, I'd flee the shop and try to find another. But there is no other shop now, since WotC won't do 3.5 anymore.
See what I mean?
To be honest, no. I wouldn't buy a car with polka dots, but I respect the fact that they only want to make cars with polka dots. As others have said, people do the things they like best, best.
I'd much rather Paizo just stick to what they like.
I'd also respectfully disagree that there are no other shops now. I think there are quite a few...
Slightly different thing though. While authors don't explain magic systems in their books, they don't need to. We don't want a mana system because all the wizards I read about use a mana system. The reason I want a mana system is that it most accurately simulates the magic system in books, at least much more so then the vancian system. Especially when you throw in rules for vitalizing.
I don't think the mana/PP system goes far enough from the current pathfinder magic system. If you have a point system that lets you cast what spells you need when you need them that is nice, but what about altering the spells? If you are comparing it to literature (which I know cannot/should not be done) you don't see mages blasting a massive area because that is all they are capable of doing. I think magic should be more flexible and that mages should be able to shape it to their needs. I hope words of power does something like this, where spell casters create what spells they need. If that is too much to ask for, I will settle for a point based system.
The mana system makes it easier to add rules for fatigue, for example when you are at half your total mana or under you take a -1 on all checks, when you are at a quarter or under you take an additional -1 on all rolls.
I would also love to see a fatigue system worked into pathfinder.
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Yes, when I run games I don't let anyone run monks. They don't fit into a pseudo-mediaeval European setting.
These are both fair comments - any DM has the right of refusing any material they choose, even core material. I for one will be glad to have a book I can hold up and ask the question of, and know that it won't clash with 'official' material.
Sure I'll take the bait.....
Farley McKracken. Pseudo-scottish warrior who uses his hands to pound people into jelly. He is fast and doesn't like armor due to his great ability to avoid blows. I seen him stun people with a knee to their face. As he grows in power he becomes a legend, falling from great heights with nary a scratch, dodging around fully armed and armored bloaks to get into the second or third rank of the enemy. He is a man of legend!Monks DO fit into a pseudo-medieval European setting. You just refuse to open your mind to a change in flavor and decided to be Mr. Upturned Nose instead.
Well as long as ya change that silly fixed weapon list I agree.
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It's not just a commercial reason though... it's that we at Paizo actually prefer the current Vancian system (be it prepare spells or spontaneously cast spells) for spellcasting. It's just "more fun" for us, and developing a system of rules that isn't something we're passionate about is something I'd like to see Paizo avoid. And it sounds like there's a lot of folks who agree with that opinion.
there are an equal number wanting there to be a power point system; and many apparently willing for it to be ki-pool supernaturals (bleh).
now to be sure, put me in the "power points or don't bother" camp. This excuse of "I don't want half the book be something people won't use" doesn't fly; I am already seeing GM's proudly declaring "NO ADV Player Guide Content" on bulletin boards does this mean you can't put any new content that builds off of APG?.
Now I understand not wanting to work on something you personally don't like; but we, the consumers, aren't Paizo, nor it's staff. We have similar, but often very diverse needs from the games we buy: and I personally feel ignoring those is Paizo doing a disservice to its, what we'd call in the advertising trade, "heavy users". block it out of organized play if you must; heck half of what you've said you wish psi to be sounds closer to Incarnum (beware, Glorian will be BLUE!); but be very hesitant to just say "no, never, not even then."