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Sometimes, I don't think people realize how powerful a Wizard is. So here is a thread for people to put their best tactics for Wizards, as well as sample situations to use them.
1. Animate Dead, and other summons.
The ideal Wizard is a Neutral guy who is willing to make his most dangerous monster enemies into skeletons and zombies. This provides for a handy meatshield in combats that you rarely have to worry about healing (unlike a Fighter, who often soaks up healing like a bag of sponges).
At higher levels, planar binding is used to pull demons and other high value monsters from their planes to be used as ideal zombie fodder.
Other summons make ideal trap finding tools(they step on traps and explode, thus revealing said trap), couriers, meatshields when massed, chaff to absorb atacks, grapplers, or special ability users.
2. The ability to leave.
Having a tough combat? The Wizard has a number of ways to leave combats, from Teleport to Dimension Door, but in a "Fight Club" situation like duels, the Wizard can merely cast Magnificient Mansion and take a 5' step in for perfect protection from harm while he casts summons, buff spells, and drinks potions. Even spells like Resilient Sphere last long enough for that necessary breathing room in a hectic combat.
3. Contingency
Often, this spell is overlooked and is used a way to slap a quick buff onto the Wizard in an emergency; however, the spell is much more.
One of the easiest solutions is to set a spell that controls the battlefield in some way so that enemies can't harm him. Popping a Resilient Sphere on yourself is an easy way to avoid powerful attacks for a round while you cast buffs or summons.
So now we take these three tactics and do a sample situation: a duel between a Fighter and a Wizard.
Round 1: Someone wins initiative, but it doesn't matter because the Fighter gets delayed by a spell out of the Wizard's Contingency....maybe a Wall of some sort. The Wizard's Balor Skeleton attacks the Fighter, and the Wizard casts Magnificient Mansion and takes a 5' step in and is now immune to attack.
Round 2+: Wizard casts various summons, buffs, and then sends them after the Fighter, all from the perfect protection of the Magnificient Mansion. Potentially, they can step out for a round or two to cast debuffing and battlefield control spells under the cover of buffs like Improved Invisibility and Blink.
Conclusion: Winner is the Wizard!
K- please read the limits of the spells you can have active under the Contingency spell. Then repost. Kthnxbai!!!
Also, re: Mage's Mansion- "Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond ."
A Mean, but honest, GM could interpret that to mean that your summoned creatures can only exist INSIDE the pocket dimension of the mansion you summoned the into, and cannot leave it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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3. Contingency
Often, this spell is overlooked and is used a way to slap a quick buff onto the Wizard in an emergency; however, the spell is much more.One of the easiest solutions is to set a spell that controls the battlefield in some way so that enemies can't harm him. Popping a Resilient Sphere on yourself is an easy way to avoid powerful attacks for a round while you cast buffs or summons.
So now we take these three tactics and do a sample situation: a duel between a Fighter and a Wizard.
Round 1: Someone wins initiative, but it doesn't matter because the Fighter gets delayed by a spell out of the Wizard's Contingency.... maybe a Wall of some sort.
Rules note:
Contingency can't create a resilient sphere or any kind of wall; "the spell must be one that affects your person," not an area.
Still tons of handy uses for the spell, of course, mirror image and dimension door/teleport being the classics (or fire shield and stoneskin back in 1st/2nd Ed).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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One other possible wizard-win tactic:
Sure, time stop is great for all kinds of things, but if you really like blowing stuff up, why not TS + cascading-duration delayed blast fireball (empowered if you have the rods and/or spell slots for it), timed to each go off at the expiration of the TS?
One other possible wizard-win tactic:
Sure, time stop is great for all kinds of things, but if you really like blowing stuff up, why not TS + cascading-duration delayed blast fireball (empowered if you have the rods and/or spell slots for it), timed to each go off at the expiration of the TS?
This is one of the better uses, but still limited by energy type. Would be far better (IMO) if you mix and match energy types, one fire, one cold, etc. that way you get them 3/4 times, rather than maybe not at all.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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One other possible wizard-win tactic:
Sure, time stop is great for all kinds of things, but if you really like blowing stuff up, why not TS + cascading-duration delayed blast fireball (empowered if you have the rods and/or spell slots for it), timed to each go off at the expiration of the TS?
This is one of the better uses, but still limited by energy type. Would be far better (IMO) if you mix and match energy types, one fire, one cold, etc. that way you get them 3/4 times, rather than maybe not at all.
It could be done with the Elemental Spell feat or its variants.
Or, in some ways more diabolically, with the Merciful Spell feat. Sure, useless against constructs or undead, but I'd say you USUALLY know when you're up against one of those two. Against anything else, though, nonlethal damage bypasses all the usual energy resistances. Once they're unconscious, you have your familiar go over and coup de grace.
Unless, of course, the DM rules that nonlethal damage retains its original type (so a Merciful DBF would do "nonlethal fire damage"), in which case you're back to square one with fire resistance.
Also, killing a demon or devil sends them back to their plane, you can't actually harvest their corpse...
Also, killing a demon or devil sends them back to their plane, you can't actually harvest their corpse...
You can if they were called, AFAIK. Summoned creatures blink, called creatures are there for good.
Also, killing a demon or devil sends them back to their plane, you can't actually harvest their corpse...You can if they were called, AFAIK. Summoned creatures blink, called creatures are there for good.
Hmm not sure about that, I always was under the impression the only true way to kill a demon/devil is on their plane.
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Hmm not sure about that, I always was under the impression the only true way to kill a demon/devil is on their plane.Also, killing a demon or devil sends them back to their plane, you can't actually harvest their corpse...You can if they were called, AFAIK. Summoned creatures blink, called creatures are there for good.
Incorrect. Summoned creatures are only banished when defeated, called creatures can be killed on any plane.
Incorrect. Summoned creatures are only banished when defeated, called creatures can be killed on any plane.Hmm not sure about that, I always was under the impression the only true way to kill a demon/devil is on their plane.Also, killing a demon or devil sends them back to their plane, you can't actually harvest their corpse...You can if they were called, AFAIK. Summoned creatures blink, called creatures are there for good.
Delicious....
Summoned creatures are only banished when defeated, called creatures can be killed on any plane.
True, but that doesn't make what Seraph wrote incorrect.
If a demon is killed on another plane,
its body eventually returns to the Abyss—unless trapped
through magical means, such as a dimensional anchor spell.
(See the Demonic Death Throes sidebar for more details on
how demon bodies sometimes disappear.) No matter what
happens to the demon’s body, if it is killed outside the Abyss,
its “essence” falls back into the raw chaos of the Abyss, where
it is then be reformed as a new demon.Demonic Death Throes
d20 Effect
1 The corpse melts into a pool of black, tarlike ichor.
2 The head (or what remains of it) begins cursing in
a dozen different languages and voices, after which
the corpse simply winks out of existence.
3 Two snakes force their way out of the killing wound
and begin devouring the corpse from either end. If
attacked, the snakes disappear along with the
remains.
4 The corpse crumbles to dust, leaving enough
powdery remains to fi ll a small bag.
5 The fl esh of the demon rots away (as if a hundred
years pass by in an instant), leaving behind only a
skeleton.
6 Half the demon’s body is engulfed in fl ame
(harmless to nearby characters), while the other
half freezes solid and falls to the ground, shattering.
7 A hole opens up in the fabric of the universe, and
an unseen force sucks the demon into the hole with
a loud “pop.”
8 The skin of the demon peels away, leaving its
muscles and organs exposed.
9 All the bones and muscle tissue in the demon leak
out its wounds in purple, smoking rivulets of blood.
The remaining sac of skin bubbles quietly on the
ground.
10 The body discorporates into a foul-smelling mist.
11 Sparks and lightning burst around the killing
wound, blackening the demon’s skin. In moments,
the lightning consumes the corpse, leaving a
smoldering spot on the ground.
12 The demon’s body immediately transforms into
stone and shrinks down to the size of a tiny statuette.
13 Vermin explode out of the corpse, consuming it and
then fl eeing in all directions.
14 The demon turns translucent and then disappears
in an explosive fl ash of light, leaving its shadow
image on all nearby walls.
15 The demon’s skeleton tears itself free of its fl esh,
takes three steps, and then crumbles into dust.
16 Shadowy hands reach up from the fl oor and pull the
corpse into the ground, leaving behind no sign of
the demon.
17 As the demon falls, its corpse explodes into tiny,
1-inch-high duplicates of itself. The tiny demons
immediately begin fi ghting among themselves until
only one remains, which then vanishes in a puff of
smoke.
18 Blinding, yellow light explodes out of the demon’s
eyes and ears. Cracks appear in the creature’s skin
as the light spreads, consuming the fi end’s body in
harmless but spectacular energy.
19 The demon falls to the ground, and its fl esh rots
away in an instant, leaving behind a sickly odor.
The bones remain, but they will turn to dust at the
slightest pressure.
20 Nothing special. The demon expires as if it were a
normal, Material Plane creature.
Balors are an exception: you can't have a balor skeleton because whatever you do they explode immediately upon dying.
A devil slain in the Nine Hells stays dead. A devil slain
outside Baator devolves into a puddle of foamy, stinking ooze
over a period of 3 to 9 minutes. This residual soul essence
registers as both magical and evil. Any mortal ingesting it
must make a successful DC 20 Fortitude save or become
sickened for 2d4 hours.
Whether or not its residue is disturbed, a slain devil returns
to Baator 99 years later, in its original form, at full hit points.
This method of transport leaves behind any physical possessions
the devil might have carried, including magic items
and treasure, even if they originated in Baator. Depending
on the nature of its defeat, the devil might experience no
repercussions, or it might face demotion for failure. Lowly
devils are the likeliest to suffer demotion.
3. Contingency
Often, this spell is overlooked and is used a way to slap a quick buff onto the Wizard in an emergency; however, the spell is much more.One of the easiest solutions is to set a spell that controls the battlefield in some way so that enemies can't harm him. Popping a Resilient Sphere on yourself is an easy way to avoid powerful attacks for a round while you cast buffs or summons.
So now we take these three tactics and do a sample situation: a duel between a Fighter and a Wizard.
Round 1: Someone wins initiative, but it doesn't matter because the Fighter gets delayed by a spell out of the Wizard's Contingency.... maybe a Wall of some sort.
Rules note:
Contingency can't create a resilient sphere or any kind of wall; "the spell must be one that affects your person," not an area.
Still tons of handy uses for the spell, of course, mirror image and dimension door/teleport being the classics (or fire shield and stoneskin back in 1st/2nd Ed).
I disagree.
Resilient Sphere
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a crystal sphere)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance yes
You have to specifically target a creature with Resilient Sphere. Contingency limits you to a spell that targets you. It's not like it's limited to Personal effects.
A Mean, but honest, GM could interpret that to mean that your summoned creatures can only exist INSIDE the pocket dimension of the mansion you summoned the into, and cannot leave it.
When did creatures become a condition? By that ruling, no one can leave a Magnificient Mansion.
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Round 1: Someone wins initiative, but it doesn't matter because the Fighter gets delayed by a spell out of the Wizard's Contingency....maybe a Wall of some sort. The Wizard's Balor Skeleton attacks the Fighter, and the Wizard casts Magnificient Mansion and takes a 5' step in and is now immune to attack.
You know, the Balor skeleton kind of sucks. I don't know why the fighter would even look at it.
Here are its stats:
I converted it for you-- mind the formatting.
Balor Skeleton CR 8
XP
CE Large undead (extraplanar)
Init +11; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, true seeing;
Perception +38
Aura flaming body, unholy aura (DC 26)
Defense
AC 22, touch 20, flat-footed 15 (+4 deflection, +7 Dex, +2
natural, –1 size)
hp 90 (20d8)
Fort +6, Ref +14, Will +12
DR 5/bludgeoning Immune cold, undead traits
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 unholy longsword +21/+16/+11 (2d6+13),
+1 flaming whip +19 (1d4+7 plus 1d6 fire and
entangle) or 2 slams +25 (1d10+12) or two claws +25
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (20 ft. with whip)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th)
Constant—true seeing, unholy aura (DC 26)
Statistics
Str 35, Dex 27, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +15; CMB +28; CMD 45
Feats Improved Initiative
Skill -
Languages -
SQ whip mastery
Ecolo gy
Environment any (Abyss)
Entangle (Ex) If a balor strikes a Medium or smaller foe with
its whip, the balor can immediately attempt a grapple
check without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the
balor wins the check, it draws the foe into an adjacent
square. The foe gains the grappled condition, but the
balor does not.
Whip Mastery (Ex) A balor treats a whip as a light weapon for
the purposes of two-weapon fighting, and can inflict lethal
damage on a foe regardless of the foe’s armor.
Compare to the fighter, whose AC is 41 to 42 (depending on if he has his boots of haste activated) and whose CMD is 42. He also has DR 5/- because he's wearing armor.
I find that combo a bit underwhelming, though. You're not even playing particularly dangerously. How about two balors out of a Gate? How about you do that and then buff them and wade into combat with a ton of defensive buffs up? That's a little more like it. Instead we get the hiding and crying guy with the riding dogs. Real ultimate power is hiding in an extraplanar mansion and making other people fight for you? I dunno.
Here's a mean combo, but it's less "I win combat!" and more "lol@u":
Use craft magic arms and armor. Make a sword. Purposely fail your roll. Temper it in the outhouse run off and use a halibut to craft the blade. Whatever it takes-- you want a -2 cursed sword.
Use a persistent metamagic rod to cast symbol of weakness on the -2 cursed sword. Trigger it to activate when it's pulled out of a scabbard. Include a scabbard in the same room.
Bonus: Magic mouth it so that when someone enters the room, the sword begins to sing mournfully. Oh, this must be the macguffin!
Use a persistent metamagic rod (24,500gp, by the way-- a minor pittance if you're the right level) to cast sympathy on the -2 cursed sword. Key it to "male human fighters who use longswords as primary weapons" or whatever your GM finds appropriate, down to "this specific guy I hate."
Place it in the area you know your enemy will walk through.
He walks through.
Sees the singing sword.
Two secret will saves-- if he passes both he doesn't go get it, but he might just get lured there by magic mouth anyways. If he fails, he must own the object. If he succeeds, he has to make another two saves 1d6x10 minutes later or go get it anyways.
Then when he breaks out the sword in the next room, in the final battle versus the heroes and your minions? He symbol of weaknesses his entire team for you on his initiative. Oh, and his sword sucks when he used to think it was awesome. But he can't get rid of it, because it has sympathy on it...
A lot of spells for nothing much more than demoralization, but I like it. It makes me rub my hands together and whisper "yesss" to my cat.
When did creatures become a condition? By that ruling, no one can leave a Magnificient Mansion.
A Mean, but honest, GM could interpret that to mean that your summoned creatures can only exist INSIDE the pocket dimension of the mansion you summoned the into, and cannot leave it.
I agree. It means that, for instance, a wizard could use Mage's Magnificent Mansion in Pompeii for instance and hide inside of the mansion and be perfectly fine. On the flip side, someone inside of the mansion could cast earthquake but nothing bad would happen outside.
It doesn't stop arrows, though.
3. Contingency
Often, this spell is overlooked and is used a way to slap a quick buff onto the Wizard in an emergency; however, the spell is much more.One of the easiest solutions is to set a spell that controls the battlefield in some way so that enemies can't harm him. Popping a Resilient Sphere on yourself is an easy way to avoid powerful attacks for a round while you cast buffs or summons.
So now we take these three tactics and do a sample situation: a duel between a Fighter and a Wizard.
Round 1: Someone wins initiative, but it doesn't matter because the Fighter gets delayed by a spell out of the Wizard's Contingency.... maybe a Wall of some sort.
Rules note:
Contingency can't create a resilient sphere or any kind of wall; "the spell must be one that affects your person," not an area.
Still tons of handy uses for the spell, of course, mirror image and dimension door/teleport being the classics (or fire shield and stoneskin back in 1st/2nd Ed).
I disagree.
You have to specifically target a creature with Resilient Sphere. Contingency limits you to a spell that targets you. It's not like it's limited to Personal effects.Resilient Sphere
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a crystal sphere)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance yes
I agree with resillient sphere, but what wording is going to set it off that cleanly? "When I'm being threatened by another creature..." will have it set off thanks to your familiar. "When a fighter threatens me" might have it set off before combat as the fighter trash talks you. "When a fighter threatens me in melee combat and is purposefully attacking me with a sword" will have the spell fizzle. "When a man holding a sword is five feet from me" would be pretty good, but then the fighter, to spite you, turns up alter self'd into a woman, or actually changed into a woman thanks to his girdle...
I think the issue some folks are bringing up about Resilient Sphere is that it "Effect 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature", that is not expressly a spell that "The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level)."
You could interpret that loosely and say that since you are casting the Resilient Sphere around yourself, it is affecting you and not in fact being cast around you. That would require a DM that interprets spells a specific way though.
Balors are an exception: you can't have a balor skeleton because whatever you do they explode immediately upon dying.
Yes, you can. Its trickier, nothing more. Simply Baleful Polymorph the poor bastard into a turtle. Turtles doesn't have death throes.
Humbly,
Yawar
Balors are an exception: you can't have a balor skeleton because whatever you do they explode immediately upon dying.Yes, you can. Its trickier, nothing more. Simply Baleful Polymorph the poor bastard into a turtle. Turtles doesn't have death throes.
Humbly,
Yawar
Wouldn't you then only have a lowly turtle skeleton?
Wouldn't you then only have a lowly turtle skeleton?Balors are an exception: you can't have a balor skeleton because whatever you do they explode immediately upon dying.Yes, you can. Its trickier, nothing more. Simply Baleful Polymorph the poor bastard into a turtle. Turtles doesn't have death throes.
Humbly,
Yawar
Not after you remove the polymorph effect.
I think the issue some folks are bringing up about Resilient Sphere is that it "Effect 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature", that is not expressly a spell that "The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level)."
You could interpret that loosely and say that since you are casting the Resilient Sphere around yourself, it is affecting you and not in fact being cast around you. That would require a DM that interprets spells a specific way though.
It's a Reflex negate spell that allows for SR, clearly meaning it gets cast on a target unlike Wall of Force which is a no save and no SR.
Round 1: Someone wins initiative, but it doesn't matter because the Fighter gets delayed by a spell out of the Wizard's Contingency....maybe a Wall of some sort. The Wizard's Balor Skeleton attacks the Fighter, and the Wizard casts Magnificient Mansion and takes a 5' step in and is now immune to attack.You know, the Balor skeleton kind of sucks. I don't know why the fighter would even look at it.
Well, it's meant to be just a speedbump and only actually dangerous when the Wizard is casting spells that stun or hold or paralyze or otherwise Tekken juggle the Fighter. It's basically there to Coup de Grace a helpless fighter, so it's actually fine if it gets ignored.
But, if you wanted to juice up your personal Balor Skeleton, there is nothing stopping you from giving it magic weapons with Greater Magic Weapon, any kind of poison from Minor Creation or Major Creation, or even magic items from your own WBL (like a one charge Staff of Power that it breaks for a Retributive Strike at your command). You could give it bonfires or boulders made small with Shrink Item and have it throw them. Heck, Polymorph it into a more powerful form.
Honestly, it was just the first monster that came to mind. I don't doubt there is a more optimized monster out there.
A couple of things.
1) Regarding Resilient Sphere...again....I understand your point completely K. I still disagree with you on this. Whether the spell is cast "at" at target or not, it is not a spell that affects your person. At least not the way I read it. YMMV and your DM might rule differently.
2) Regarding Baleful Polymorph...
I can't think of any spellcaster that would ever have better than a slim chance of ever affecting a Balor with this spell. Thats not even taking Spell Resistance into account as well. Then the Balor would have to fail a Will save to lose its abilities (including Death Throes). The chances of this actually working? Assuming a Wizard 20 with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation, a Int score of 34 (18 base +5 inherent + 6 item +5 level based) casting this against the Balor. Assuming Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, 1d20+24 vs SR 31. 60% average chance of success (not bad). Fortitude Save vs Baleful Polymorph Heightened to Level 9 spell: FDC 33 vs Balor's Fort save of +29. Thats only a 20% chance of success. Then a Will save vs. DC 33 again at +25. That is a 40% chance of success. Not very good odds at all. And I don't think I've ever seen a Wizard with a Heightened (9th) Baleful Polymorph memorized.
Also, since Baleful Polymorph has a duration of Permanent, the wizard in question will have to successfully dispel the effect. It can't simply be canceled.
By all means K, and others, if you want to present some serious (even easy and cheesy tactics) such as Jason Nelson's mention of the cascading Delayed Fireballs of varied elements + Timestop, please do so. That is a perfectly valid tactic that actually shows off just how powerful the wizard is in simple terms. Just saying Balor skeleton and tekken juggle doesn't do it for me as an example.
To clarify one final thing, I fully believe and understand that a properly prepared Wizard is the strongest class in any incarnation of D&D (excepting 4e). I've seen and done horrendous things to monsters, other characters with my Wizards, Mages and Magic-Users.
Do I still find a Fighter fun to play? Absolutely! I'm playing one in PFS right now.
Do I think that playing a Wizard that specializes in Domination magic is the only way? Absolutely not! The key to enjoyment (for me at least) when playing a Wizard, is their versatility. You can conceivably prepare for any given situation with the right set of spellbooks and time to research. Even when you lack these opportunities, you should have a wide range of spells prepared otherwise you should be prepared for the possibility of being very ineffective when you run into a golem and have few to no spells that can affect it. That is just part and parcel to playing a Wizard though, IMO.
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This one is actually more for a sorcerer, but it works no matter how low-level the caster is. All you need is one spell.
Step 1: Get the biggest siege engine you can find.
Step 2: Hire a loading crew.
Step 3: Get your caster into the firing position.
As the crew loads, the caster should cast True Strike. The second round should see a loaded siege weapon with a sorcerer or wizard at the helm, ready to True Strike the target.
Siege weapons can deal lots of damage. At high levels, this is a great way for your 5 1st-level followers to contribute to a battle or fight.
Just few questions...
1) Are you sure the turtle does not explode once you revert it to a Balor? (I.E., you are pretty lucky I'm not your gamemaster :P).
2) It's all fun and games until you realize you killed a greater Devil or Demon to enslave it. This could raise the respect for you among these evil beings, but could create an whole faction of sworn enemies.
3) Triomegazero: Dimensional Door theleports the wizard WHERE? Please, be more specific. If the fight happens near a solid surface, the wizard takes damage and end his turn near the fighter.
4) All of this assumes the fighter challengin directly the wizard, without using retereats, reorganization, or magic items greater than enhancements.
5) you cannot spam gate. Is 10 000 bucks each time. What if something attacks the balor before the fighter? 90 HP goes away quickly at level 20. Or the fight happens in an.. uh.. arena.. a là WOW... where none else passes by? Neither the fighter or the wizard have allies? Isn't more likely that a fight between two high level factions is something like ClericFighterSorcererRogue VSWizardDruidBardBarbarian ???
Z, continue to post because all of these are great ideas and show the actual, great power of the Wiz, that is REALLY a powerful class.
But I'm sorry, you all people assume things without considering a living gameworld. This brings to ridiculous conclusions.
EDIT: I'm actually quite happy people post things like this, because can finally highlight overlook in rules FIX.
The magnificent mansion, as an example, could have been a great utility spell with a casting time of 10 rounds, without the istant avoid combat brokenness. Sorry to be mean, but is true :)
Even if I consider the PVP threads per se "trollish", K answered to a thing raised in another thread, about the results of actual duels.
Actual duels favor spellcasters, is a fact. My criticism to these things concerns the fact that ignores the complexity of the gameworld. See my post above for examples.
Said this, I guess that this thread could be useful for GM and designers, to be prepared for the tricks of high level play.
Actual duels favor spellcasters, is a fact.
I think actual duels favor the one who wins initiative more than anything else. It's also of course affected by range - if a wizard starts 200ft. from a melee fighter, he'll no doubt win, but if they start adjacent, well GLHF to the wizard.
Even if I consider the PVP threads per se "trollish", K answered to a thing raised in another thread, about the results of actual duels.
Actual duels favor spellcasters, is a fact. My criticism to these things concerns the fact that ignores the complexity of the gameworld. See my post above for examples.
Said this, I guess that this thread could be useful for GM and designers, to be prepared for the tricks of high level play.
I remember making a frenzied berserker with an item that let him cast anti-magic field around him.
It was an assassin that was part of a team of assassins.
Players died. Mostly spellcasters. XD
Even if I consider the PVP threads per se "trollish", K answered to a thing raised in another thread, about the results of actual duels.
Actual duels favor spellcasters, is a fact. My criticism to these things concerns the fact that ignores the complexity of the gameworld. See my post above for examples.
Said this, I guess that this thread could be useful for GM and designers, to be prepared for the tricks of high level play.
I remember making a frenzied berserker with an item that let him cast anti-magic field around him.
It was an assassin that was part of a team of assassins.
Players died. Mostly spellcasters. XD
IIRC, there were spells able to counter this tactic (some wall, and some orb spell).
Nevertheless, I guess you player didn't have them, or already used them.. which is pretty much my point.
All K said, is pure truth. One should see what happens in the actual game.
I nevertheless restate that is a healthy thing he shows things up, because can be very useful for GM, designers and future iteration of the game.
An open minded community it's a good thing for the game, IMHO.
An open minded community it's a good thing for the game, IMHO.
WHile I agree in priciple, I'll only accept advice from someone who has played this class (wizard) to this high a level in an actual game. I have, K obviously has not, or has a kowtowing wuss of a DM who doesn't hold him accountable. Mind you, a big part of winning at higher levels IS rules lawyering, but it should be sturdy, well constructed rules lawyering, not some of the flimsy fluff offered up thread. Baleful poly a balor. Ok.
WHile I agree in priciple, I'll only accept advice from someone who has played this class (wizard) to this high a level in an actual game. I have, K obviously has not, or has a kowtowing wuss of a DM who doesn't hold him accountable. Mind you, a big part of winning at higher levels IS rules lawyering, but it should be sturdy, well constructed rules lawyering, not some of the flimsy fluff offered up thread. Baleful poly a balor. Ok.
An open minded community it's a good thing for the game, IMHO.
I've played Wizards all the way to Epic with a number of DMs, and I agree with you that it takes a very firm understanding of the rules.
As for Baleful Polymorphing a Balor, it's actually very easy. You cast Gate, command it to not resist the spell, and then you auto-make the save and SR check for spell for the polymorph. Then you command it to not resist while you Coup De Grace it. Since it has no supernatural powers when dead but the spell effect is still on it, it dies in bunny form as a bunny. You then dispel the polymorph and get your dead balor (and dead monsters have no powers at all, so it doesn't explode then either).
It's not even a big deal when you consider that Gate could just as easily be opened to the heart of a volcano and drown your enemies in lava (yes, you can drown in lava above and beyond the fire damage).
Personally, I think it's very important for DMs and players to know just how powerful spellcasters are, and to power up fighting guys appropriately. In every game I've played or DMed, there has always beeb a gentleman's agreement among the spellcasters to not use the full power of their spellcasters. If one of the spellcasters are using any of the various routes to real power, the DM hands out artifact swords for the fighting guys usually around level 10 when it has been clear for several levels that stabbing things with pointy bits of metal is terribly obsolete.
I never understand why pointing out problems in the system is considered trolling on Paizo forums. It really is baffling to me.
Why do you people continue to fall for such transparent troll-bait? Have you no will save modifier?
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Not another one of these threads. Haven't people learned that it's the individual group (and specifically the GM) that ultimately determines which classes are the most powerful?
As for Baleful Polymorphing a Balor, it's actually very easy. You cast Gate, command it to not resist the spell, and then you auto-make the save and SR check for spell for the polymorph. Then you command it to not resist while you Coup De Grace it. Since it has no supernatural powers when dead but the spell effect is still on it, it dies in bunny form as a bunny. You then dispel the polymorph and get your dead balor (and dead monsters have no powers at all, so it doesn't explode then either).
My point was that since the ability triggers with a "dead balor", in the exact moment we have a dead balor we immediately take an explosion in the face (barring resiliant sphere).
Said this, one could do it with a pit fiend, I suppose. See, things like this don't happen in my game because we play gate more "a la AD&D", with a lesser authority of the wizard on the called creature (if a charme monster, that is supposed to be a mind controlling effect, does not allow suicidal behaviour, why a gate should?) but is true that a clean-up of these mechanics could be good.
My point was that since the ability triggers with a "dead balor", in the exact moment we have a dead balor we immediately take an explosion in the face (barring resiliant sphere).
Said this, one could do it with a pit fiend, I suppose. See, things like this don't happen in my game because we play gate more "a la AD&D", with a lesser authority of the wizard on the called creature (if a charme monster, that is supposed to be a mind controlling effect, does not allow suicidal behaviour, why a gate should?) but is true that a clean-up of these mechanics could be good.
Since this is discussed in a somewhat rules-lawyering way, I have to tune in here.
If the trigger is considered a dead balor (although the ability is 'when killed'), then you must remember that polymorph spells does not change the creatures race or type. As such you already have a dead balor when the balor-in-a-turtle-suit dies.At that point there he got no supernatural abilities so he won't blow. At the time the polymorph is dispelled, he is no more a dead balor than he was before (although he might look a bit more like it).
The trigger is long overdue, and I haven't seen any precedence in the rules that the abilities of dead creatures start functioning.
Following this reasoning, nowhere in the rules says that they don't.
I could say that there is no need. If the balor is killed (negative HP up to his constitution) AND has his supernatura abilities, it explodes.
When the polymorph spell is dispelled, is still dead AND his (Su) are on.
Anyway, as I said above, you can do it with a Pit Fiend, and the balor itself is not the point. Nor is the fact that at high level is mandatory such cheesy rule-lawyering to make them unplayable :)
(But I restate that more clean-ups wouldn't be bad).
When the polymorph spell is dispelled, is still dead AND his (Su) are on.
Dead creatures don't have supernatural abilities.
If they did, you could go all Clash of the Titans on crap and petrify people with medusa heads you carry in a sack. While that is iconic to the source material, it is terrible for the game.
I mean, if a DM rules that the Balor explodes when the Polymorph effect came off, I would start chain-Gating in Balors and turning them into goldfish, and then start tossing bags of said Balor goldfish at enemies followed by an Area dispel for insta-wins in combat as the Polymorph comes off and all those Balor explode.
The only sane way to run it is by the RAW so that Balors who die as goldfish don't explode anymore because the trigger(dying) has already come and gone and a Balor corpse is a powerless object.
You can't do that with a pit fiend if you use 3.5 rules. They melt, bones and all.
And while explosive goldfish would be awesome, and probably not game breaking, Death throws isn't dependant on form, so it wouldn't be supressed by baleful polymorph and the goldfish would explode upon dying.
Dead creatures don't have supernatural abilities.
Is that part of the rules ? I don't remember something like that.
You can't do that with a pit fiend if you use 3.5 rules. They melt, bones and all.
And while explosive goldfish would be awesome, and probably not game breaking, Death throws isn't dependant on form, so it wouldn't be supressed by baleful polymorph and the goldfish would explode upon dying.
Dead creatures don't have supernatural abilities.Is that part of the rules ? I don't remember something like that.
Exploding goldfish are what makes a game worth playing! XD
Round 1: Cleric casts protection from evil. Let's assume that your summoned Balor doesn't explode when killed in another form. It's still evil and still summoned.
Round 2: Cleric casts Dimensional Lock and targets the area where the Mage's Mansion entrance is. Nothing else is coming out of the Mansion now.
Round 3: Cleric begins casting Forbiddance.
Round 9: Forbiddance activates and the space where the Mansion entrance is targeted, the wizard is now permanently trapped in his mansion.
The best part is the wizard gets to watch it all happen. Bye wizard, enjoy your new home.
You can't do that with a pit fiend if you use 3.5 rules. They melt, bones and all.
Good thing we were talking about Balors, eh?
And while explosive goldfish would be awesome, and probably not game breaking, Death throws isn't dependant on form, so it wouldn't be supressed by baleful polymorph and the goldfish would explode upon dying.
Reread Baleful Polymorph. It removes Supernatural abilities above and beyond a generic Polymorph effects' removal of Supernatural abilities based on form.
Dead creatures don't have supernatural abilities.Is that part of the rules ? I don't remember something like that.
The rules have always strongly implied that dead bodies are objects, and not dependent on the creature's stats or living abilities. This is why bodies don't get a save vs Animate Dead.
Considering that lots of monsters have auras and other weird supernatual powers that emanate from the body, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'd want them to continue after death for fear of players turning their enemies remains in putrid versions of magic items.
Round 1: Cleric casts protection from evil. Let's assume that your summoned Balor doesn't explode when killed in another form. It's still evil and still summoned.
Round 2: Cleric casts Dimensional Lock and targets the area where the Mage's Mansion entrance is. Nothing else is coming out of the Mansion now.
Round 3: Cleric begins casting Forbiddance.
Round 9: Forbiddance activates and the space where the Mansion entrance is targeted, the wizard is now permanently trapped in his mansion.
The best part is the wizard gets to watch it all happen. Bye wizard, enjoy your new home.
That doesn't actually work. Conditions outside the Mansion don't affect the inside of the mansion, and emanations from spell effects count as a "condition".
So the Wizard is free to escape using any kind of planeshifting magic. He can even dispel or dismiss or let the duration end on his own mansion and most likely be dumped into the Astral Plane or shunted to outside the Forbiddence area. It's a DM call.
Exploding goldfish are what makes a game worth playing! XD
That is one sentiment that I completely agree with.
That doesn't actually work. Conditions outside the Mansion don't affect the inside of the mansion, and emanations from spell effects count as a "condition".So the Wizard is free to escape using any kind of planeshifting magic. He can even dispel or dismiss or let the duration end on his own mansion and most likely be dumped into the Astral Plane or shunted to outside the Forbiddence area. It's a DM call.
When you say it doesn't actually work, you are in essence saying it does actually work. If the wizard is stuck in his Mansion with all his summoned, buffed beasties and no way to escape except Plane Shifting out isn't that a victory for the cleric? I didn't say the wizard is stuck in his mansion with no way of getting out, he just can't get out the mansion door and neither can his summoned army. How long will it take the wizard to get back into battle with the cleric? I'd say at least a couple days, what are the chances that a mage with all those summon and buff spells memorized is also going to have a Plane Shift ready? The cleric could spend days extending the Forbiddance area and casting his own summon and buff spells to send an army of angels chasing the mage across the planes.
Point is, you say "wizards win" while I say "sure an appropriately prepared wizard can win against a fighter, but wizards don't just win". Yes, wizards are powerful but they are by no means the ultimate beings.
PS - A good winning combo in the right circumstances is:
Round 1 - Time Stop
Round 2 - Cloud Kill
Round 3 - Forcecage
And that only wins if the target has no way to go Astral.