I would love to see that. I'd even like to see Shamans and Mediums added to the list of psychic classes or maybe put together and used to be the psychic analogue of the divine classes (like the psion was the wizard analogue, etc).
I think the more mystical approach is good, it would help get rid of the "sci-fi stigma". I'd be behind a spirit type monster class too. Mediums have always been a staple of psychics but they don't show up in D&D really.Shamism is perhaps better under the divine magic paradigm, in fact the APG has totemic druids, which covers some of it pretty well, and the Spirit Shaman was an interesting class in 3.5.
Mediums, however, would strike me as a kind of Seer, and there are requests for a medium in the DSP psionics for Pathfinder project.
Like I said, welcome to Lilith's Thrall :p.
Note how he/she is pointedly not responding to Dabbler!
I certainly did ... :)
On the Augmenting/Heighten/Autoscaling front, you have to consider:
Vancian Caster - they get all spells scaling at least to a point, but save DCs don't scale.
Psionic Manifester - have to augment powers to make them scale, but get save DCs to increase as well. So they have to pay more for the same effects but get a bonus.Spells have one effect, powers can have several, but the extra effects often must be paid for and Psionic manifesters gain knowledge of less spells at any given level than spell casters.
It actually does balance out very well.
Another thing that tends to go mostly unsaid is spell protection.
One spell that protects you from spells under x level can absolutely cripple a psion. For a wizard, it's annoying, as you have to use your higher level spells. For a psion it's horrifying, as you potentially lose all your offense.
Incidentally, I didn't respond to Dabbler because I'm working from an IPhone and it's just too much of a pita to respond to long posts. I had written up a comprehensive reply and by the time I hit submit, me session info was lost and consequently so was my post.
Ouch, it's a real bummer when that happens.
Just to touch on one thing, I will note that Dabbler insists that Psions should be compared to Wizards, not Sorcerers . Then he follow it up by complaining about how Psions get fewer spells than Wizards, etc. - exactly the reasons they should be compared to Sorcerors.
Actually if you add up all the spells know that sorcerers get, it comes to 52 spells known at level 20 compared to the psion's 36. The psion, in that respect, sucks next to either caster in pure numbers, but is redeemed by the greater flexibility of their powers. If you work out the sorcerer's equivelant of power points in terms of casting power, at level 20 with a 20 charisma they get 512 pp equivelant - way more than the psion's 393.
One of the reasons I didn't want to cross-compare the psion to the sorcerer is that the psion has more in common with the wizard both mechanically and thematically, the only detail in common with the sorcerer is the fact that their powers are known and not prepared. The nearest equivelant in psionics to the sorcerer is the wilder, but that comparison is not a good one. The wilder is very good, though, for representing a character with a 'wild' paranormal talent.
Edit:
As for standing up for power points, it appeared to me to be what the majority of psionics-lovers wanted, and not that many of the detractors listed it specifically as a major problem. Certainly, in my experience it isn't broken and it can run alongside Vancian casting without a hitch. Despite that it seems to be a lost cause - James Jacobs has said that the Pathfinder 'mind magic' will be Vancian based; however, it will not use any of the psionic classes from 3.5 and won't work the same way either, and they are doing this for those that like the 3.5 system so that they can bring in that form of psionics without clashing. It's a good compromise, it means we all get most of what we want.
I'm not sure I follow you, Dabbler. In what ways do you think a Psion should be or is mechanically or conceptually more similar to a Wizard than a Sorceror?
OK, the similarity to a sorcerer:
1) they both learn their spells/powers rather than prepare them in advance.Similarity to wizard:
1) They are intelligence-based.
2) They are represented as studious in their skills-lists (for example, both have all knowledge skills as class skills).
3) They have specialisations in specific fields of study (schools of magic for wizards, disciplines of psionics for psions).
4) They follow a similar pattern of increasing abilities (new level of spells/powers every odd level, bonus feats etc).
5) Thematically they both gain their abilities through study instead of through intuition and talent. While talent is needed, both are taught, not self-discovered.
That said there are some differences between psions and sorcerers and wizards, most notably the power point mechanic, the powers themselves, and their relationship with them. Nonetheless it is clear to see that the psion was based on the wizard for reasons of mechanical balance.
Most of the reasons you can point at for the psion being better than the sorcerer you can also highlight as the wizard being better than the sorcerer. However, sorcerers have their own advantages over both psions and wizards - most principally their greater casting power.
Edit:
It's also worth looking at the differences in scope between the powers and spells is as well for the various specialities. There are some areas where psionics is better than magic (although not in a major way) and there are things magic can do that psionics cannot.
Psionics can be a bloodline for sorcerers(possibly aberrant) and a school. It can be a domain. On another front, protection from (alignment) can stop beneficial mind links. Something not yet explored is how telepaths can heal. Blocking mind effects will stop such mind based healing.
Books include Joy's Way, C.W. Leadbeater's Thoughtforms, and A Course In Miracles, but they don't require reading daily like spell books. To gain more powers they function like spell research.
1.) They both have Int as a prime req.
This is a flaw. Conceptually, Psions gain their power through willpower, awareness, and intuition. Further, their prime req should relate to their will save. That suggests that their prime req should be wisdom.
The psion gains his abilities through study and intellectual understanding, hence intelligence - you can argue it either way, but I am dealing with the classes as they are, not as you think they should be. As for wizards, their Will save is the better one for them, and it must take willpower to master eldritch forces, so why is their casting attribute not wisdom also?
2.) they both have all knowledge skills
Why?
Because both gain their abilities through study, and they study many subjects in order to do so. They are both academics. To quote the Expanded Psionics Handbook:
"Psions depend on a continual study of their own minds to discover an ever wider range of mental powers. They meditate on memories and the nature of memory itself, debate with their own fragment personalities, and delve into the dark recesses of their minds’ convoluted corridors. “Know thyself” is not just a saying for a psion—it’s the road to power."
Memory is prominent here, and that feature is represented by intelligence (although it isn't all intelligence does).
However, I'm pointing out where psions are similar to wizards and the implications thereof. I don't have to justify why they are this way, at least for the mechanical aspects of the class.
3.) They both have specializations
No, they don't. There are multiple differences between disciplines and specializations.
Such as? A wizard can select a school they specialise in, a psion selects a discipline they specialise in. What are the differences? Well, the psion discipline is includes new powers other psions cannot access, whereas the wizard must exclude schools they cannot access instead. Net result is concetually the same, though.
4.) They both gain a new level of powers every odd level
Making Psions, to my knowledge, the only spontaneous power user who keeps pace with the Wizard - another problem with the class
This does not change the fact that they gain their abilities through study, not through intuition or prayer. In fact it makes a lot more sense - after all, you don't forget how to do something once you know how to do it, but apparently wizards do. Further, nothing stops a wizard taking the feat Spell Mastery in order to permanently 'know' their spells.
Can you explain why always knowing their powers is 'wrong'? For the differences between the sorcerer and wizard, the wizard gets the spells earlier but the sorcerer gets to cast their spells more often, and so the two can be regarded as balanced. However the psion gets less power often than the sorcerer or wizard, so that argument does not apply.
The psion and the sorcerer can use their powers/spells repeatedly where the wizard can only use what he prepares, but can prepare from a far larger pool than either - again, balance: a positive feature on one side and a different positive feature on the other.
5.) They both gain their powers through study
No, they don't. Psions simply know their powers. They have no equivalent of a spell book.
That does not mean that they do not gain their powers through study, it just means that they do not do it from spell books and they do not forget how to do them once they have mastered them. This makes perfect sense to me - after all, they get far less powers than wizards get spells so it's hardly unbalanced either. Once I learned how to do algebra, I didn't forget after using it in the exam!
The questions are of balance and similarity - the psion as is is represented as being an intellectual who gains ability through study, and this relates more closely to the wizard than to the sorcerer.
We're also getting away from the issues of balance, which is what this comes down to at the end of the day. If you compare the wizard and sorcerer, they balance out pretty well. I will agree that psion is not precisely like either of them, although he is more similar to the wizard, but if you plug in the details he balances reasonably well with both.
So I am guessing this thread is no longer a discussion about psionics and its science fiction flavor?
So I am guessing this thread is no longer a discussion about psionics and its science fiction flavor?
Of course not. Like all other threads before it, it has devolved into a Psionics vs Magic debate.
So I am guessing this thread is no longer a discussion about psionics and its science fiction flavor?Of course not. Like all other threads before it, it has devolved into a Psionics vs Magic debate.
Well that is indeed a shame. Guess it can't be helped.
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Dabbler, you're arguing in circles. You claim the psion should have int as his prime req because he's a scholar and you argue that he should be a scholar because he's an intellectual (has int as his prime req).
Let me try to make it real easy for you. In your opinion, should a psion be more notable for his willpower or his ability to reason?
As I understand Dabbler's argument, the word "should" doesn't enter into it at all. Rather, it's a descriptive argument--from the RAW description of the 3.5 psion, we already know that it has INT as its prime stat, and that it has all Knowledge skills as class skills. That's what the rules say. I haven't seen any argument about what the rules *should* say, but that's immaterial to what they *do* say. And what they *do* say is that the psion and the wizard both have INT as their prime stat; therefore, under the 3.5 rules set, it is not unreasonable to compare the two classes to see how they balance against each other.
This is entirely apart from whether Dabbler would hold that a hypothetical and as-yet undefined Pathfinder psychic character class *should* be intellect-based, or whether the 3.5 psion would be improved by a shift to WIS as prime stat along with some skill set changes. I haven't seen that argument, but I may have missed it--could you point it out?
Anything can be Science Fiction with enough time and thought. I think Psionics has it's roots in Science Fiction (I mentioned that above somewhere), but it can be applied to Traditional Fantasy as well. The same goes for magic. Shadowrun had no problem with making Magic Sci-Fi and 3.5 did a fine job at making Psionics Fantasy.
D&D has always had a Sci-Fi flavor. Spelljammer was in space (didn't do too well if I remember). Planescape was a complete mesh of Sci-Fi and Fantasy as is Eberron. Forgotten Realms has an Island full of gnomish tinkers and another region that is famous for its air ships, not to mention the Underdark had a great deal psionic creatures roaming about.
The purpose of D&D, and I think Pathfinder, is to make sure there is something for everyone. There may be a line between Fantasy Fiction and Science Fiction but it's a very thin one.
There's really no need to keep hammering it into the ground. Of course psionics has a sci fi flavor.Well that is indeed a shame. Guess it can't be helped.So I am guessing this thread is no longer a discussion about psionics and its science fiction flavor?Of course not. Like all other threads before it, it has devolved into a Psionics vs Magic debate.
Nope.
Yeah, you're wrong there.
And here's the best part - you can't prove me wrong. You can't prove yourself correct.
Psionics does not have a sci-fi flavor.
There's really no need to keep hammering it into the ground. Of course psionics has a sci fi flavor.Nope.
Yeah, you're wrong there.
And here's the best part - you can't prove me wrong. You can't prove yourself correct.
Psionics does not have a sci-fi flavor.
Neither of you are right or wrong, it's just your different opinions.
Neither of you are right or wrong, it's just your different opinions.There's really no need to keep hammering it into the ground. Of course psionics has a sci fi flavor.Nope.
Yeah, you're wrong there.
And here's the best part - you can't prove me wrong. You can't prove yourself correct.
Psionics does not have a sci-fi flavor.
That's more or less my point ;p
Dabbler, you're arguing in circles. You claim the psion should have int as his prime req because he's a scholar and you argue that he should be a scholar because he's an intellectual (has int as his prime req).
Let me try to make it real easy for you. In your opinion, should a psion be more notable for his willpower or his ability to reason?
#
No, I'm not. YOU are arguing about what it should and shouldn't be, I am pointing out what it IS and listing the reasons given.
The rules say that the psion, like the wizard, has his intellectual ability as his primary facet. That's it. You can invent arguments and justifications for any attribute if you try hard enough, but that's not the point.
For example, you claim that the psion is unbalanced compared to the sorcerer because both are spontaneous 'casters' yet the psion gets his higher level powers a level earlier than the sorcerer (like the wizard) and that psions get more skill points because they use intelligence (like the wizard) - I could just say that "the sorcerer gets it wrong, he should use intelligence like wizards and get the spells earlier" ... but where does that get us in the discussion?
Look at the comparison with the numbers ...
At level 20, and assuming a 20 in their primary attribute, if you convert the wizard and sorcerer's spell slots into PP-equivalents ({level x2}-1 for a given spell level), you get:
psion = 393
sorcerer = 512
specialist wizard = 431
wizard = 350
Now looking at the number of different spells or powers they may command per day:
psion = 36
sorcerer = 52
specialist wizard = 55
wizard = 46
Now look at other factors:
psion - gains powers at the same rate as the wizard, has more flexible system for using them, has restricted list of powers known.
sorcerer - gains new levels of spells a level later than wizards, does not gain skills benefit of intelligence, has restricted list of spells known.
specialist wizard - has potentially a much larger spell list than anyone but the wizard, can swap out spells known on a daily basis as needed.
wizard - has the largest potential pool of spells of any of the classes, can swap out spells known on a daily basis as needed.
If you compare just the wizard and sorcerer, you can see the balancing factors of number of spells per day (resources) vs versatility and that they are considered to balance.
Now compare the psion to both of these, they have less resources than anyone but the generalist wizard, and less powers known than any of them, but their versatility in using these powers is greater than either.
Hence I would call them balanced.
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<<snip>>
Hence I would call them balanced.
This is picky, but I wouldn't go that far based on the analysis. I'd say that on paper they don't look unbalanced, and look for examples of how they actually play in a game.
I don't have my rules in front of me--how does the wilder fit into that analysis (with the caveat that 3/4 BAB advancement, better weapons/armor proficiencies, and 4+ skills/level day are going to complicate things)?
That's more or less my point ;pNeither of you are right or wrong, it's just your different opinions.There's really no need to keep hammering it into the ground. Of course psionics has a sci fi flavor.Nope.
Yeah, you're wrong there.
And here's the best part - you can't prove me wrong. You can't prove yourself correct.
Psionics does not have a sci-fi flavor.
Sorry, it kinda sounded like "my fantasy can beat up your sci-fi" to me :)
Sorry, it kinda sounded like "my fantasy can beat up your sci-fi" to me :)That's more or less my point ;pNeither of you are right or wrong, it's just your different opinions.There's really no need to keep hammering it into the ground. Of course psionics has a sci fi flavor.Nope.
Yeah, you're wrong there.
And here's the best part - you can't prove me wrong. You can't prove yourself correct.
Psionics does not have a sci-fi flavor.
Would it be more accurate to say that the naming conventions for psionic powers and disciplines follows a theme more based on either the science of psychiatry, or on other pseudo-scientific terms, which causes many people to see it as a "sci-fi" system.
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Would it be more accurate to say that the naming conventions for psionic powers and disciplines follows a theme more based on either the science of psychiatry, or on other pseudo-scientific terms, which causes many people to see it as a "sci-fi" system.
That is often true, and yet spells like teleportation, clairvoyance/clairaudience, telekinesis and 'mnemonic enhancer' either steal directly from psionic terminology, or from psychiatric / neuroscience terminology, while psionic powers like catfall, chameleon, elfsight and shadow body go the other way and sound less 'psi' (sciency or parapsychology-inspired) and more like the sorts of effects that a druid or sorcerer would evoke.
Gygax (and, later, Greenwood) have been big fans of portentious (and occasionally pretentious naming conventions for spells), which has muddled that.
Indeed, the fact that words like Mordenkainen and Tenser are not OGL has, IMO, detracted somewhat from the 'magical' feel of some spell names. 'Mage's Sword' sounds a bit weak compared to 'Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.'
This is picky, but I wouldn't go that far based on the analysis. I'd say that on paper they don't look unbalanced, and look for examples of how they actually play in a game.<<snip>>
Hence I would call them balanced.
I agree, but then we are into anecdotal territory. I can say "I've played psionic characters and they all seemed balanced to me" and I can even point you at a game-thread on these boards where I'm playing a wilder in a normal non-psionic party and you can see for yourself how balanced or not they are, but these are just snapshots. I'm sure there are also horror stories of how munchkins wrecked campaigns by introducing psionic characters too.
I don't have my rules in front of me--how does the wilder fit into that analysis (with the caveat that 3/4 BAB advancement, better weapons/armor proficiencies, and 4+ skills/level day are going to complicate things)?
The wilder indeed has those features, as well as light armour and shield proficiency. What they don't have are many powers - they can't take the specialist powers without using the Expanded Knowledge feat, they only gain new powers at even levels like sorcerers, and they only gain one power at first level and one every even level after that, for a total of 11 at 20th level. So it would run:
psion = 36sorcerer = 52
specialist wizard = 55
wizard = 46
wilder = 11
In power points they get as many as the psion.
The wild surge feature helps them punch above their weight with augmentable powers, but at the end of the day they have to specialise their powers in one direction. If they do this, they can be very effective specialists, but when not in their zone they need those skills and combat abilities to contribute anything to the party or their own survival because they do not have enough powers to get the the 'utility' powers/spells most manifesters and casters depend on.
I actually like wilders a lot, I find them more thematic of the original 'psionics as random talent' concept of D&D psionics back in 1e AD&D.
So I am guessing this thread is no longer a discussion about psionics and its science fiction flavor?
Heres a quote to place telepathy before Science Fiction.
Telepathy--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
The psychic phenomena by which communication occurs between minds, or mind-to-mind communication. Such communication includes thoughts, ideas, feelings, sensations and mental images. Telepathic descriptions are universally found in writings and oral lore. In tribal societies such as the Aborigines of Australia telepathy is accepted as a human faculty, while in more advanced societies it is thought a special ability belonging to mystics and psychics. Although not scientifically proven, telepathy is being increasingly studied in psychical research.
History:
"Telepathy" is derived from the Greek terms tele ("distant") and pathe ("occurrence" or "feeling"). The term was coined in 1882 by the French psychical researcher Fredric W. H. Myers, a founder of the Society for Psychical Research (SPR). Myers thought his term descrbed the phenomenon better than previous used terms such as the French "communication de pensees," "thought-transference," and "thought-reading."
Research interest in telepathy had its beginning in Mesmerism. The magnetists discovered that telepathy was among the so-called "higher-phenomena" observed in magnetized subjects, who read the thoughts of the magnetists and carried out the unspoken instructions.
Here's where it came from.
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/t/telepathy.html
I will continue to search for earlier references to mental powers in Europe.
Here's something.
Germany:Nachzehrer
Shape-shifting vampire with psychic powers. Feasts on the bodies of the dead, and the blood-and energy-of the living.
http://www.mythicalrealm.com/legends/vampires2.html
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Dabbler, what 20th level character has a 20 in their prime stat?
Run your numbers with some sensible starting assumptions.
Does that negate Dabbler's argument? If so, how/why? Is it your assertion that the Psion catches up to the Wizard as both hit higher Int scores? Show your work, produce your own numbers.
Otherwise, you're just dodging the issue.
Dabbler, what 20th level character has a 20 in their prime stat?
Run your numbers with some sensible starting assumptions.Does that negate Dabbler's argument? If so, how/why? Is it your assertion that the Psion catches up to the Wizard as both hit higher Int scores? Show your work, produce your own numbers.
Otherwise, you're just dodging the issue.
i never get tired of saying this:
Welcome to LilithsThrall :p
Dabbler, what 20th level character has a 20 in their prime stat?
Run your numbers with some sensible starting assumptions.
I can re-run the figures with any stat that you like, but it won't make any difference to the comparison, as the number of PP gained by your manifesting stat is equal to the spell-levels gained by the same stat for a caster, except converted into power points.
The point here is, the manifesters get less resources than the casters, save for the generalist wizard who gets a HUGE spectrum of spells to select from instead.
Manifesters = weaker resources, better management system, more restricted powers known, more flexible powers.
Spontaneous Caster = way better resources, less efficient management system, moderately restricted spell-list.
Prepared Caster = reasonable resources, inefficient management system, unrestricted spells known.