|
Sigh because Psionics are sci-fi and magic is fantasy. It is that simple. What system it uses is irrelevant to that point
I can't remember exactly, but I remember you or somebody saying something like:
"using the sorcerer system is bad for psionics, because it's arcane"
I think this is a mistake, because fluff is ultimately fluff. If a player wanted to use psionics fluff for a sorcerer, I'm okay with it
I myself like both the fluff and the system. I think it's more important to keep the fluff than to keep the system.
Others prefer the system, which is more problematic since a lot of people like the 3.5 system. But since PF is suppose to be backwards compatible, the core can't be completely changed.
So do people have a problem with the fluff or the system?
Psions that nova run out of power points really quickly if there are several encounters. If there is only one or two encounters then casters can do the same thing. <---Another old issue.
PS: Any class is painful in the hands of a munchkin.
Yes.... but I have yet to meet a munchkin that didn't go for psionics in any and every game that allowed them. That should say something about exactly how abusable the rules are.
It would be one thing if a fighter can juice up their hits without a feat or a mage can increase their spells without a feat. But every psion can increase their power performance without a feat. Every single one. If all Fighters had power attack without the feat and could x times per day do even more damage, that would be on par with psionics. If all wizards could add an additional die of damage to their fireballs x times per day without a feat and on the spot, that would be on par with psionics. But even still, that would still be under valued compared to psionics since psions can over juice every single power they have. All day long. Sure they can't use as many powers when they do that, but all they have to do is store it up for the boss and that boss is a one round fight. Total climax killer because the munchkin just wants the bragging rights, regardless of the rest of the group.
Psionics are simply abusable. Responsible players keep it in check, but munchkins go for the most broken material there is. It just so happens that psioncs are that abusable.
It seems to me you want the pro-psionics camp to not only sit back whiles lies* are spread, but when opinions come up we are not allowed to try to understand your opinions either?
*I am sure someone was not paying attention so I will repeat myself. Lies/Misinformation refers to things that can factually be proven to be wrong based on the rules not fluff issues.
What is the difference between Dabbler addressing the issues in this thread at a later time, and us doing it now as they are coming up?
The only thing I've seen that's been out and out wrong is that magic and psionic don't have any transparency. Even then there are optional rules within the book for having psionics and magic being completely seperate.
Everything else has just been based on opinion. If I were to say that, based on my experience, psionics are overpowered (not something I actually believe), that's my opinion which is neither wrong nor absolute truth.
Note that this is coming from some one who wants psionics in their games, I just think the 3.5 system doesn't work very well as there is little to differentate it from magic.
|
|
Psions that nova run out of power points really quickly if there are several encounters. If there is only one or two encounters then casters can do the same thing. <---Another old issue.
PS: Any class is painful in the hands of a munchkin.
Yes.... but I have yet to meet a munchkin that didn't go for psionics in any and every game that allowed them. That should say something about exactly how abusable the rules are.
It would be one thing if a fighter can juice up their hits without a feat or a mage can increase their spells without a feat. But every psion can increase their power performance without a feat. Every single one. If all Fighters had power attack without the feat and could x times per day do even more damage, that would be on par with psionics. If all wizards could add an additional die of damage to their fireballs x times per day without a feat and on the spot, that would be on par with psionics. But even still, that would still be under valued compared to psionics since psions can over juice every single power they have. All day long. Sure they can't use as many powers when they do that, but all they have to do is store it up for the boss and that boss is a one round fight. Total climax killer because the munchkin just wants the bragging rights, regardless of the rest of the group.
Psionics are simply abusable. Responsible players keep it in check, but munchkins go for the most broken material there is. It just so happens that psioncs are that abusable.
The problem isn't that the munchkins abuse it. They abuse everything. The problem is that the DM doesn't keep the party going for many other encounters afterwards. If a psion goes nova and uses all their points, they are done. But munchkins would insist on resting. F#%^ that. DMs should respond accordingly and make the more intelligent foes start attacking in waves, relentlessly, or change up tactics, bring in their own psion, etc..
I wish more DMs would match players inside the game first, before doing things outside the game.
|
|
It seems to me you want the pro-psionics camp to not only sit back whiles lies* are spread, but when opinions come up we are not allowed to try to understand your opinions either?
*I am sure someone was not paying attention so I will repeat myself. Lies/Misinformation refers to things that can factually be proven to be wrong based on the rules not fluff issues.
What is the difference between Dabbler addressing the issues in this thread at a later time, and us doing it now as they are coming up?
The only thing I've seen that's been out and out wrong is that magic and psionic don't have any transparency. Even then there are optional rules within the book for having psionics and magic being completely seperate.
Everything else has just been based on opinion. If I were to say that, based on my experience, psionics are overpowered (not something I actually believe), that's my opinion which is neither wrong nor absolute truth.
Note that this is coming from some one who wants psionics in their games, I just think the 3.5 system doesn't work very well as there is little to differentate it from magic.
Yeah the lack of differences is annoying. Hard balance to strike between making it really different, but people then not learning the system and the counters, or making it similar, but people then saying it's not different enough, so what's the point.
Magic is so well-established at this point, if Paizo, WotC, or whoever started moving magic spells into psionic powers, people would scream bloody murder.
Not sure how to address this.
I banned anything and everything that has to do with psionics as far back as 2ed.
Now why did I do that you might ask, well in my opinion psionics has nothing to contribute to a fantasy world. I read the 3.0 psionics book when wizards realest it, and my opinion did not change.
I read Expanded Psionics Handbook when wizards realest it and still there was nothing in it that got me thinking this is cool, this is something that will contribute to my campaign.
Can Paizo make a good psionics book, of course they can, and it will most likely be full of nothing but awesome and fluffy kittens. But odds are still good I will not use it when I’m a DM (I will still buy it).
Could someone please answer my fluff question?
Why are psionics "sci-fi" when Vancian spellcasting, cribbed from a sci-fi "science and sorcery" book series, allows you to cast Telekinesis, a word with roots firmly in 19th century psuedoscience and sci-fi "Not-Magic?"
IMO, the telekinesis spell is poorly named. Wizards have always been able to move objects with their magic. That spell allows them to do that. I am willing to bet that Gygax just couldn't think up a better word for it 30+ years ago. And frankly, I can't either. Sure, telekinesis is a firmly planted psionic word, but ... what else are you going to call it. Like I said, poorly named. But it gets the point across. (EDIT: I think magic force would be a very nice alternate name for the telekinesis spell.)
Vancian magic has been reskinned as standard D&D magic. Its been that way for over 30 years, longer then some of us have been alive and have always known it to be fantasy. As far as many are concerned (myself included) it has always been fantasy, regardless of its origins.
Why are Psionics are "Scifi"? Because I have yet to read a fantasy book or watch a fantasy movie or tv show that included psionics. They've been firmly associated with science fiction. Star Trek, Babylon 5, and many others all use psionics and not magic.
The problem isn't that the munchkins abuse it. They abuse everything. The problem is that the DM doesn't keep the party going for many other encounters afterwards. If a psion goes nova and uses all their points, they are done. But munchkins would insist on resting. F#%^ that. DMs should respond accordingly and make the more intelligent foes start attacking in waves, relentlessly, or change up tactics, bring in their own psion, etc..
I wish more DMs would match players inside the game first, before doing things outside the game.
The problem is, this is a game. This is suppose to be fun. When you add up the added rules, added skills, added "magic" items you need to add that are only going to be used by 1 character, all for a a player that is IME just going to blow the other players away in terms of power, it becomes not fun.
A much easier solution is to keep psionics out. Permanently.
I've let my Kingmaker game group know that psionics are out. One guy in my group wasn't happy about that, but he settled on the inquisitor. He claims it is disgustingly overpowered, but it is still tightly controlled power (compared to a psion).
Yeah the lack of differences is annoying. Hard balance to strike between making it really different, but people then not learning the system and the counters, or making it similar, but people then saying it's not different enough, so what's the point.
Magic is so well-established at this point, if Paizo, WotC, or whoever started moving magic spells into psionic powers, people would scream bloody murder.
Not sure how to address this.
I've been working on a PFRPG hack for a bit and one thing I was working on I have hope might work for psionics. I'm not sure it will work for what I originally intended and still need to flesh it out before I can even determine if it even has a shot.
Essentially it would be feats that unlock different uses for skills. Sense Motive = Empathy, Survival = Adaption, Intimidation = Pyrokinesis, and similar abilities. Other options would involve something similar to Force Skills from Star Wars only following psionic categories similar to those from White Wolf's Aeon game.
|
How are we supposed to address a complaint if we don't know where it comes from?
"It feels sci-fi."
"Why?"Why is important. If people think the fluff is too sci-fi, then the answer is to find out why they feel that way.
It's not about knowing where vancian magic comes from, it's about finding why one is "sci-fi" and the other is not despite the ability itself being identical.
It probably has something to do with SciFi authors claiming "psionics" as SciFi because it provides a pesudo-scientific rational for magical stuff happening in the story. As opposed to "magic" which is clearly fantasy.
Suspension of disbelief and whatnot.
It probably has something to do with SciFi authors claiming "psionics" as SciFi because it provides a pesudo-scientific rational for magical stuff happening in the story. As opposed to "magic" which is clearly fantasy.
Suspension of disbelief and whatnot.
+1
|
|
The problem isn't that the munchkins abuse it. They abuse everything. The problem is that the DM doesn't keep the party going for many other encounters afterwards. If a psion goes nova and uses all their points, they are done. But munchkins would insist on resting. F#%^ that. DMs should respond accordingly and make the more intelligent foes start attacking in waves, relentlessly, or change up tactics, bring in their own psion, etc..
I wish more DMs would match players inside the game first, before doing things outside the game.
The problem is, this is a game. This is suppose to be fun. When you add up the added rules, added skills, added "magic" items you need to add that are only going to be used by 1 character, all for a a player that is IME just going to blow the other players away in terms of power, it becomes not fun.
A much easier solution is to keep psionics out. Permanently.
I've let my Kingmaker game group know that psionics are out. One guy in my group wasn't happy about that, but he settled on the inquisitor. He claims it is disgustingly overpowered, but it is still tightly controlled power (compared to a psion).
I understand your reasoning when it comes to the work involved, and I am okay with it.
But wizards and sorcerers can nova as well. Save or deaths are a refection of this. Color Spray is extremely strong at low levels, same as Sleep. And then it just goes up from there. Not to mention high level wizard is still considered the most powerful class. But DMs don't usually ban them. Those classes have been consistently nerfed because of their powers (although 3.0 screwed that up by changing the overall system to favor them). Those characters should also be prevented from "now that I've taken care of the situation, lets rest".
As long as DMs are applying the same rules to these classes, that's fine.
I was always kind of neutral to psionics. It isn't my style, but I would never oppose them outright. My biggest gripe has always been the option to eliminate or scale the transparency between magic and psionics. Any time I have used psionics I have always made it clear that things like dispell magic, and Spell resistance apply to psionics and the reverse. I dont think there should be an option for a lack of transparency, it creates too big a balance issue and headache for DMs. Optional rules in an optional system only leads to confusion.
|
Well Dabbler I think you got what you asked for in the end. The issues people have with psionics are fairly clear. Whatever material dreamscarred pres sis to produce has to address the novaing (easy with the nerfing of turn manipulating powers), transparency (NOT putting an option for non transparency to exist), psionics not being different enought flavorwise (changing the names and flavor of some powers too similar to spells), 10 minute work days (with the focused based at will abilities).
For those who dont like psionics as an idea and a whole, there is not mutch that can be done really, but I would say that through all the crap some good insight can be achieved from this thread.
Psions that nova run out of power points really quickly if there are several encounters. If there is only one or two encounters then casters can do the same thing. <---Another old issue.
PS: Any class is painful in the hands of a munchkin.
Yes.... but I have yet to meet a munchkin that didn't go for psionics in any and every game that allowed them. That should say something about exactly how abusable the rules are.
It would be one thing if a fighter can juice up their hits without a feat or a mage can increase their spells without a feat. But every psion can increase their power performance without a feat. Every single one. If all Fighters had power attack without the feat and could x times per day do even more damage, that would be on par with psionics. If all wizards could add an additional die of damage to their fireballs x times per day without a feat and on the spot, that would be on par with psionics. But even still, that would still be under valued compared to psionics since psions can over juice every single power they have. All day long. Sure they can't use as many powers when they do that, but all they have to do is store it up for the boss and that boss is a one round fight. Total climax killer because the munchkin just wants the bragging rights, regardless of the rest of the group.
Psionics are simply abusable. Responsible players keep it in check, but munchkins go for the most broken material there is. It just so happens that psioncs are that abusable.
No offense, but the reason the psion can juice his spells is because he needs to. Most of his spells do not scale with level, and the extra juce allows them to. In this way, the first level Energy Ray, which deals 1d6 per point spent, is only 1d6 as a first level spell, but 3d6 as a 2nd level spell, 5d6 as a 3rd level spell. Fireball scales at the exact same pace for a wizard, for free, and always stays the same from a resource perspective. Magic missile scales at half that rate, but stays a 1st level spell forever. Wilder class and the Overchannel feat allow them to get small bonuses for free, and go higher than normal, but that is a problem with those 2 abilities and not with psionics as a whole, and both have their drawbacks. Overchannel can only be done 1-2/combat unless a standard action is taken, and Wilders have a burnout chance.
I just wanted to clarify this, since like others, I do not like attacks on the system founded on a misconception of the rules.
For those interested, someone is working on an alternate psionic system here. It proposes using feats to give supernatural powers.
Psions that nova run out of power points really quickly if there are several encounters. If there is only one or two encounters then casters can do the same thing. <---Another old issue.
PS: Any class is painful in the hands of a munchkin.
Yes.... but I have yet to meet a munchkin that didn't go for psionics in any and every game that allowed them. That should say something about exactly how abusable the rules are.
It would be one thing if a fighter can juice up their hits without a feat or a mage can increase their spells without a feat. But every psion can increase their power performance without a feat. Every single one. If all Fighters had power attack without the feat and could x times per day do even more damage, that would be on par with psionics. If all wizards could add an additional die of damage to their fireballs x times per day without a feat and on the spot, that would be on par with psionics. But even still, that would still be under valued compared to psionics since psions can over juice every single power they have. All day long. Sure they can't use as many powers when they do that, but all they have to do is store it up for the boss and that boss is a one round fight. Total climax killer because the munchkin just wants the bragging rights, regardless of the rest of the group.
Psionics are simply abusable. Responsible players keep it in check, but munchkins go for the most broken material there is. It just so happens that psioncs are that abusable.
The problem isn't that the munchkins abuse it. They abuse everything. The problem is that the DM doesn't keep the party going for many other encounters afterwards. If a psion goes nova and uses all their points, they are done. But munchkins would insist on resting. F#%^ that. DMs should respond accordingly and make the more intelligent foes start attacking in waves, relentlessly, or change up tactics, bring in their own psion, etc..
I wish more DMs would match...
I did that before. Pissed the nova guy off sooo much. He kept going on about how perfect the system was. And that he could blow his load and kill everything off quickly...
So we played attrition. He got down to just a handful of points. And after that little encounter. He got a lot more conservative.. XD
|
|
For those interested, someone is working on an alternate psionic system here. It proposes using feats to give supernatural powers.
I will go read that.
I just thought of what if psionics were similar to the warlock, ToB, and 4E in the sense their abilities are rounds/encounter/daily based...?
I could list all sorts of reasons why I don't like psionics. Like, I don't need another magic system. I don't think they fit the setting. They are like super-crazy-overpowered (warning, exageration). Nobody can really decide how it interacts with magic. But all that is really just after-rationalization.
The simple truth is that when I think 'psionics', I instinctively go 'urgh'. And I have no idea why.
From a design point of view, I think my main issue with psionics (aside form the one above) is that no one has /really/ sat down and thought about what makes psionics different from magic. If anything. All you get is a bunch of powers that, to be frank, might as well have been spells. There's nothing inherently psychic to it. It IS for all intents and purposes, an alternate magic system.
So why not make the 'spells' and 'powers' compatible, so if you decide you like the psi magic system better than the magic magic system, you can use whichever system you prefere without automatically being burned out of future suplements like Ultimate Magic.
|
|
I did that before. Pissed the nova guy off sooo much. He kept going on about how perfect the system was. And that he could blow his load and kill everything off quickly...
So we played attrition. He got down to just a handful of points. And after that little encounter. He got a lot more conservative.. XD
Good work DMing without outright slapping him down.
DMs should response using in-game tactics first before using out of game rulings. Lots of evil NPCs are just as intelligent if not more so. Use that advantage. Have them specifically come up with an ambush, or craft/pay for a golem. Be creative. It's usually fun for the DMs as well.
That being said, it would be nice if psionics were less nova-able but better for the day. It helps the perception that it's broken, and cuts down on the player using it incorrectly and forcing the party to rest more often.
The simple truth is that when I think 'psionics', I instinctively go 'urgh'. And I have no idea why.
This is my reason as well. I have no idea why I dislike them, but I have never allowed them in my games and don't really see a need for them.
The problem isn't that the munchkins abuse it. They abuse everything. The problem is that the DM doesn't keep the party going for many other encounters afterwards. If a psion goes nova and uses all their points, they are done. But munchkins would insist on resting. F#%^ that. DMs should respond accordingly and make the more intelligent foes start attacking in waves, relentlessly, or change up tactics, bring in their own psion, etc..
I wish more DMs would match players inside the game first, before doing things outside the game.
I can agree with this. I had nova guy so I sent in some mooks first. He blew his power points, then I sent in the boss guy.
He was so mad. :)The issue never came up again.
Lets do a quick comparison.
Fireball by a 5th level wizard: Assuming the wizard has only minimum Int to cast the spell (13), he can do 1 fireball per day. Oh sure he has a bunch of other lower level spells, but his best spell is used once. Plus the wizard is limited to fire only unless they have a feat that lets them pick ONE other energy type.
Energy Burst by a 5th level psion: Assuming min Int and no feats that grant additional power points, the psion can do 5 energy bursts per day. Plus they get to choose the energy type they want when they use it. Plus there is no beforehand prep. True there is no range, but the radius is doubled (translating into a quadrupled area of effect). Oh sure they won't have anything else for the rest of the day, but imagine how much a munchkin can brag about being able to do 5 fireballs per day while the wizard can do 1.
I can agree with this. I had nova guy so I sent in some mooks first. He blew his power points, then I sent in the boss guy.
He was so mad. :)
The issue never came up again.
Dumb nova guy. Try having the nova guy do nothing except use a crossbow on everyone except the boss. Then they go nova on the boss. That's a nova guy.
One more thing..
Change the name from "psion" to "mystic". This will go a long way towards getting them to fit in a fantasy setting.
Or, if you're cheeky, change the name from "psion" to "sorcerer". Voila, you could have psionics TODAY! ;)
My major problem with 3+E psionics is that it was too much like the existing magic system. I didn't need another form of fireball/ice storm, etc. Very few of the abilities were unique enough to bother learning all the in and outs of psionics, add psionic items taht were usefull to only one character, etc..(and yes I know not ALL the abilities were basicly renamed spells..enough of them were though)
While I whole heartedly agree that 2e Psi was insanely over powered..most of the powers were unique and not just wizard spells with new wall paper. I would love to seem them come back, well balanced.
|
It seems to me you want the pro-psionics camp to not only sit back whiles lies* are spread, but when opinions come up we are not allowed to try to understand your opinions either?
So now anyone who disagrees with you is a liar? And you wonder why people finger you as being a troll?
I can assure you that my opinions on psionics are honestly my opinions and I'm not lying about them for some twisted diabolical purpose.
*I am sure someone was not paying attention so I will repeat myself. Lies/Misinformation refers to things that can factually be proven to be wrong based on the rules not fluff issues.
Which is a nice way to coach a really insulting statement with a 'back door' so you can deny it applies to anyone in particular. You even have the definition of lying wrong.
|
|
Could someone please answer my fluff question?
Why are psionics "sci-fi" when Vancian spellcasting, cribbed from a sci-fi "science and sorcery" book series, allows you to cast Telekinesis, a word with roots firmly in 19th century psuedoscience and sci-fi "Not-Magic?"
IMO, the telekinesis spell is poorly named. Wizards have always been able to move objects with their magic. That spell allows them to do that. I am willing to bet that Gygax just couldn't think up a better word for it 30+ years ago. And frankly, I can't either. Sure, telekinesis is a firmly planted psionic word, but ... what else are you going to call it. Like I said, poorly named. But it gets the point across. (EDIT: I think magic force would be a very nice alternate name for the telekinesis spell.)
Vancian magic has been reskinned as standard D&D magic. Its been that way for over 30 years, longer then some of us have been alive and have always known it to be fantasy. As far as many are concerned (myself included) it has always been fantasy, regardless of its origins.
Why are Psionics are "Scifi"? Because I have yet to read a fantasy book or watch a fantasy movie or tv show that included psionics. They've been firmly associated with science fiction. Star Trek, Babylon 5, and many others all use psionics and not magic.
You do know that golarion as a setting has spaceships, robots, stargates, aliens, guns, etc? Elves are aliens, btw. So tell me sci fi doesn't blend with golarion.
Sigh because Psionics are sci-fi and magic is fantasy. It is that simple. What system it uses is irrelevant to that pointI can't remember exactly, but I remember you or somebody saying something like:
"using the sorcerer system is bad for psionics, because it's arcane"
Was not me, and not sure what your getting at. I do not agree psionics have no place but my statement above is how some folks see it. It has nothing to do with what system is used at all.
...Just got up this morning, obviously the thread has run its course and it isn't worth paying attention to anymore for me.
I did that before. Pissed the nova guy off sooo much. He kept going on about how perfect the system was. And that he could blow his load and kill everything off quickly...
So we played attrition. He got down to just a handful of points. And after that little encounter. He got a lot more conservative.. XD
Good work DMing without outright slapping him down.
DMs should response using in-game tactics first before using out of game rulings. Lots of evil NPCs are just as intelligent if not more so. Use that advantage. Have them specifically come up with an ambush, or craft/pay for a golem. Be creative. It's usually fun for the DMs as well.
That being said, it would be nice if psionics were less nova-able but better for the day. It helps the perception that it's broken, and cuts down on the player using it incorrectly and forcing the party to rest more often.
The problem with attrition is that you can't pull the trick all the time. I find that players don't march on their stomachs but their spellcasters. I've been in several games where it was non-spellcasters making sure their caster back up is fully tanked. I know as a long time rogue player I know I've called for resting the casters so that I can ensure that they aren't a hiderance. Novaing characters can burn out quick but it's in the best interests of the group to support them.
While I like the flexibility of a spell point system I can see where the vancian system provides a bit more time between breaks.
Lets do a quick comparison.
Fireball by a 5th level wizard: Assuming the wizard has only minimum Int to cast the spell (13), he can do 1 fireball per day. Oh sure he has a bunch of other lower level spells, but his best spell is used once. Plus the wizard is limited to fire only unless they have a feat that lets them pick ONE other energy type.
Energy Burst by a 5th level psion: Assuming min Int and no feats that grant additional power points, the psion can do 5 energy bursts per day. Plus they get to choose the energy type they want when they use it. Plus there is no beforehand prep. True there is no range, but the radius is doubled (translating into a quadrupled area of effect). Oh sure they won't have anything else for the rest of the day, but imagine how much a munchkin can brag about being able to do 5 fireballs per day while the wizard can do 1.
Honestly, I don't really see a problem with this. The psion goes nova, and is left dry. He has a much harder time not hitting allies, so the bonus radius vs range is a wash. I would rather have the range any day, personally. Both average less damage those rounds to any 1 opponent than a fighter can get off, so if you are concerned about him using this on a BBEG you have bigger problems. And the wizard still has 5 lvl 1 spells, 3 lvl 2 spells, a lvl 3 school spell, and a spell of their choice if they have a bonded item. An evocation wizard can do 3 fireballs, not just 1, and still has at least 8 spells left. Honestly, I would be more scared of that wizard than a novaing psion. I do agree that the psion not needing to prepare is a bit much though.
As to choosing energy type, I think that is one of the things they got right with psions. Evocation is a weak school for wizards. This type of energy selection is just the kind of thing it needs to boost it up to the proper power level. If you don't believe me, just check these boards for all the discussions on how inefficient blasting is.
...Just got up this morning, obviously the thread has run its course and it isn't worth paying attention to anymore for me.
The psion trolls always do this to any discussion of psionics were anyone dislikes anything about it.All they do is make people like it less and make even more people want a whole new take just to get rid of em honestly.
I removed a wholly unnecessary post.
|
|
...Just got up this morning, obviously the thread has run its course and it isn't worth paying attention to anymore for me.The psion trolls always do this to any discussion of psionics were anyone dislikes anything about it.All they do is make people like it less and make even more people want a whole new take just to get rid of em honestly.
No sir, you obviously do not know what trolling is.
All pro psion folks in this thread are in fact trolling. The OP asked them not to do what they are doing. He asked them not to correct or baggier or augur with anyone here. But they can't be"wrong" and must prove how each and every poster with any dislike about the XPH rules are "wrong"
The OP asked them to stop, many times, they have derailed and ran off the very people the OP wanted in this thread.So yes trolling.
|
|
All pro psion folks in this thread are in fact trolling. The OP asked them not to do what they are doing. He asked them not to correct or baggier or augur with anyone here. But you guys can't be"wrong" and must prove how each and every poster with any dislike about the XPH rules are "wrong"
So yes trolling.
Dude. It's like saying "What do you think is wrong with 4e-oh, and no 4etards get on here and defend their edition" and then complaining about it when they do come one to defend an edition that they like. The OP's originally post was complete bullshit.
|
|
All pro psion folks in this thread are in fact trolling. The OP asked them not to do what they are doing. He asked them not to correct or baggier or augur with anyone here. But they can't be"wrong" and must prove how each and every poster with any dislike about the XPH rules are "wrong"
The OP asked them to stop, many times, they have derailed and ran off the very people the OP wanted in this thread.So yes trolling.
My DM had us face a psionic hydra one time. It could teleport it's heads to place. It was a weird ass idea, but I got used to it, and it was tons of fun.
Psionic trolls on the other hand, they regenerate arguments endlessly. Impossible to kill.
The OP's originally post was complete b#*~%~&!.
Yet here you are Wonders what hurts a psionic troll
Here's a short list:
1. It was broken with the materials MY players had.
We had basically no add-ons for spellcasters (spellcasters ONLY anyway), but one guy got the expanded psionics handbook and well, you get the picture.
2. It doesn't feel psionic.
When was the last time you heard of a psion firing blasts of fire with his mind without being a pyrokinetic so that's ALL he could do? Or mimicking a bunch of wizard spells? That and some of the abilities were just weird, like the psychoactive skins being basically Spider-Man symbiotes minus the personality. It felt like a bunch of weird stuff mashed together that I thought was poorly presented.
3. No AoO
This is a big one. They can use their powers in melee. This makes them outclass casters in every way. Not only can they use their bigger stuff more times a day, it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity to "manifest" it? Alright, find the man who designed this and feed him to the fire ants.
4. No overlap with spellcasters
This made psionics feel like a giant leech on the side of D&D. First, it DEMANDS that you allow all this new stuff, learn these new rules, then hey, you want to stop the psion for an encounter? You ahve to throw out a crystal golem, because regular golems still get hurt by psionics. This was recalled later but whatever. Them letting the rule out the door means they had no problem with this. What a hassle. I have to open an extra book at game. No, no, no.
5. Flavor
Here is all the psion fluff I read summarized:
"Psions are cool, they are powerful, being a psion is hard, but they own everything. You need to think a lot to be a psion, because their powers come from their mind! They have a crystal that follows them around and talks to them. So they're crazy. They're crazy, powerful mind guys. Also they have less restrictions than spellcasters because they use their minds! This is different than memorizing a spell somehow! Finally psions have the same role in the party as a sorcerer or wizard, which is why they totally needed to exist, because those classes weren't good enough or somehow did things differently (We will later disprove this)." What does this mean to me? Nothing. RIFTS psions had better fluff than this, and it was fit into like five paragraphs.
So with a couple of players who like playing sorcerers and wizards, why bother? It's a lot of new rules I have to keep track of, new items I have to add in, new monsters I have to add in, and it obviously adds nothing to my game (Since they're so special and rare, who cares? Who would make their special crystal items or whatever besides they themselves?), and it'll be harder on players who are still getting the hang of this whole system. Overall it seemed like way too much work for little to no reason.
All pro psion folks in this thread are in fact trolling. The OP asked them not to do what they are doing. He asked them not to correct or baggier or augur with anyone here. But they can't be"wrong" and must prove how each and every poster with any dislike about the XPH rules are "wrong"
The OP asked them to stop, many times, they have derailed and ran off the very people the OP wanted in this thread.So yes trolling.
My DM had us face a psionic hydra one time. It could teleport it's heads to place. It was a weird ass idea, but I got used to it, and it was tons of fun.
Psionic trolls on the other hand, they regenerate arguments endlessly. Impossible to kill.
LOL. If psionics ever do reappear in my games, I'm totally creating a psionic troll.