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I have a Paladin player, whose horse was killed several sessions ago, and is set on obtaining a flying mount (griffon or hippogriff) to replace it, even if it means finding a chick and raising it.
In theory, I'm not opposed to this being feasible in-game.
The PCs have made a name for themselves far in excess of a normal group of their level, many VIPs owe them for crushing a spy ring, and they have made themselves public figures by entering and (so far) winning all their matches in the annual Arena.
And if things go as they are, there'll soon be a bunch of redundant beast-wranglers looking for a new boss.
So, having a flying mount of some kind will not be a problem.
Imbuing such a mount with the divine bond (or simply having a new divine bonded mount turn up as a flying creature) is more tricky.
I want it to be a fair trade in powers, for the increased utility of flight.
APL is 9, his character is Paladin 7/Pious Templar 2 (3.5 Complete Divine).
In the 3.5 rules, there was the option (for Druid and Ranger, at least) of taking a better base creature, but counting as lower class level for the purposes of improvements .
Would such a system be workable in PF?
Obviously there are fundamental differences to the way the two systems operate. 3.5 took the base stats from the Monster Manual, and added HD, stat boosts and special abilities from there.
PF uses a unified table, to keep creatures at a similar power level, by tweaking the starting statlines (so a Druid 1 starts with effectively, a bear cub, which grows into its abilities).
I'd like to do this without reference to the Leadership feat, or treating the creature as a cohort. Partly as I simply don't like the Leadership rules anyway, and since this is supposed to fit an existing class feature.
However, none of the creatures on the base list are flyers large enough to carry a PC.
There are no stats for a hippogriff, and no guidance on taking a griffon as a Companion.
How much of an effective level-drop should 'flying mount' be worth?
Hey Snorter,
Didn't the "Bonus Bestiary" have a section under the dragonne entry for having one as a companion creature?
I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but I thought that somewhere, printed in something, there were rules/guidelines for doing the very thing you are asking about.
Now I'm curious myself, I'll look at my Bonus Bestiary.
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
EDIT: Yeppers... here are the particulars... hope this helps.
Dragonne animal companions progress as follows:
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 40 ft., fly 30 ft. (poor); AC +7 natural; Attack bite (2d6), 2 claws (2d4); Ability Scores Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 12; Special Attacks pounce; Special Qualities darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent.
10th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Attacks roar.
Maybe using what they did for the Dragonne will help you create a similar progression for a griffon or hippogriff.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Dean
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IIRC, the dragonne was quite a powerful beast, which required the 'owner' to take the Leadership feat, and for it to be treated as a cohort.
I'll have to dig that file off my hard drive and check.
[EDIT: Gaaah; we're cross-posting again! Woah, those are some well-hard starting stats for a companion. I'm pretty sure it had another pre-requisite, like only being available to mid-level PCs as a cohort, so those stats above would have to be compared to the companion of a level 6/7 Druid/Paladin?]
I want to avoid using Leadership, or feats like Improved Familiar if I can. I don't use Leadership, for reasons I've ranted about at length elsewhere, LOL.*
I have found hippogriff stats, on the pfsrd.
They're a fan-conversion of the 3.5 rules, and don't include advice on using as an animal companion with the new consolidated PF table.
The question remains; how much needs to be knocked off the base stats, to create a level 1 companion 'chick'(?) or 'foal'(?), which can then grow into a ridable mount by say, level 7?
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You could make a comparable chart for magical beasts. Magical beasts are somewhat stronger than animals so they should gain racial hit dice a bit slower than animals. There's a chart in the Bestiary that compares the racial hit dice with CR, you could use that.
You should compare it to a horse or a roc animal companion in addition to the Hippogriff stat block. Also, Horses are a little weaker in pathfinder (I think) so Hippogriff might also be a bit weaker.
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You should compare it to a horse or a roc animal companion in addition to the Hippogriff stat block. Also, Horses are a little weaker in pathfinder (I think) so Hippogriff might also be a bit weaker.
Cross-posting again!
Thanks for posting; at least no-one's told me I'm mad yet.I've just been checking out the creatures in the table on page 316 of the Bestiary, to see how the statlines were tweaked.
The roc is interesting; I don't want to use that creature, per se (the player is wanting a 'noble' heraldic beast), but its stats could be re-skinned to represent a hippogriff, even if only as a quick and dirty fix.
The issue for me is fairness and balance.
If the Paizo staff have already decided that they have no problem allowing a level 7 PC to pick a flying mount, then I'm OK with it.
Though, in practice, I'm tempted to err on the low side of any decision over stats, to offset the ease with which a Paladin player, calling a creature out of thin air, will be side-stepping the normal costs and rarity of finding and raising the animal from young, which a Druid or Ranger would presumably have to have met.
I might also decide that it's sterile or prudish, so he can't create a money-go-round, by putting it out to stud...
In the Curse of the Crimson Throne player's guide, there's actually a feat that not only gives the player the ability to bond with a hippogriff as a mount, but actually gives them other bonuses. It's for a Ranger at level 4 but I don't see why that couldn't be extended to your Paladin considering his good rep. (pg 6, Sable Company Marine)
What about if a player wants to ride a Dire Wolf? How would you guys handle this situation because I want to let the player do it but I also don't want to let the character to become unbalanced.
What about if a player wants to ride a Dire Wolf? How would you guys handle this situation because I want to let the player do it but I also don't want to let the character to become unbalanced.
Wolves get large as an animal companion -- I would just stick with that since that's basically what a dire wolf is in this case.
What I'd really like to see is a Paladin on a Gorgon. He'd have to be epic level or something, but that would be really amazing ^^. FYI, he should have some stone to flesh spells prepared.
The Roc has companion stats, and doesn't require leadership.
I agree with this. The ROC seems the easiest choice. If the player doesn't want 'just a Roc' ask if he'd be OK reflavoring a roc as a griffin. Griffin's don't really have any iconic powers he's missing out on, so this seems the easiest solution.
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Seems like we have a consensus.
If only all threads were resolved so quickly!
I am surprised to find the roc comes at Medium at level 1; I expected it to start Small, so 1st-level Small Druids couldn't be zipping round the skies.
I would rule that flying mounts aren't an option for a starting PC, and that the eggs/chicks have to be found in-game. Then allow those eggs/chicks to be found/bought just at the moment when the game conveniently assumes the PCs are getting their first access to regular Fly spells.
For those classes that don't have to find and adopt a real creature, but whistle one up from the celestial realm, I'd probably keep a similar level prerequisite. These are supposed to be rare creatures, and they won't send their precious chicks off to danger with an untested rider. A more mature creature may choose to serve a higher-level rider, who has proved his level-headedness.
'level-headedness' good pun ;->
You know what you're doing here, I presume? Any chance of similar positive responses regarding the Scout player in your group? Without joking? For once?
I live in hope...
PS: It's like I have the alternate universe opposite problem of this guy. Except without the DM input.
This is what we are using for Griffon Animal Companions in my game:
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A Paladin may choose a Griffon as the focus of their Divine Bond, with some limitations. Rather than the Griffon acting as an Animal Companion of the Paladin's Level, the Griffon acts as an Animal Companion of the Paladin's Level -3. This means that a griffon taken at Level 5 (Animal Companion Level 2) is somewhat weaker than a Griffon in the Bestiary, and also somewhat weaker than a Warhorse for a Paladin of the same level (but it can fly, a significant advantage). The Boon Companion Feat can be taken to offset this inherent penalty.
Due to the inherent intelligence of a Griffon, only Paladins qualify to take it as an Animal Companion at early levels. Non-Paladins must have an Effective Druid Level of 14 (after the inherent penalty from the Griffon) and sacrifice all of the "Ability Score Increase" entries on Table 3-8 in order to have a Griffon Animal Companion (the sacrificed increases are functionally all put towards intelligence).
Use the following statistics block for a Griffon Animal Companion.
Griffon
Starting Statistics: - Size: Large; Speed: 30 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC: +4 natural armor; Attack: bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 5 (6 for Paladin), Wis 13, Cha 8; Special Attacks pounce; Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent.
7th-Level Advancement: - AC: +2 natural armor; Ability Scores: Str +2, Con +2; Special Attacks: rake.
(Note that 7th Level Advancement occurs at effective level, -3 from actual Level)
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The character *can* take the Boon Companion Feat to negate the -3 penalty (and compensate for a 1-level dip into another class), but does not *have* to.
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You know what you're doing here, I presume? Any chance of similar positive responses regarding the Scout player in your group? Without joking? For once?
I'm posting my thoughts aloud on this one, since it has more potential to be useful to more potential players out there, and to provoke some kind of precedent for PCs adopting eligible creatures from future bestiaries.
Your crazy-ass character-retcon has less potential for mass appeal, unfortunately.
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Okay; going with the roc stats, as the chassis for a re-skinned hippogriff/griffon companion, I come up with the following tools;
Level 7 Companion stats from universal table: 6HD, +4 BAB, Saves +5/+5/+2, 6 skills, 3 feats, +4 AC, +2 Str/Dex, +3 tricks, link, share spells, evasion, +1 ability, devotion.
Bestiary Companion Starting Statistics: Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor; Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11; Special Qualities low-light vision.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.
These combine to give the following base abilities;
ROC, Paladin’s Mount (Level 7)
Augmented Animal
N Large Animal
Init +4, Senses Perception +1, low-light
Languages Common,
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AC 25 (+4 Dex, +12 natural, -1 size), touch 13, flat-footed 21
hp 33 (6d8+6 HD)
CMD +15
DR
Immune
Resist
Vulnerable
Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +3, evasion, devotion (+4 morale vs enchantment)
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Spd 20’, fly 80’.
Base Atk +4; CMB +11
Atk Options 2 talons +10 (1d6+6+grab), bite +10 (1d8+6)
Special Actions
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Abilities Str 22, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11 +1 extra ability boost
SQ link, share spells
Feats +3 Feats
Skills (6) Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Tricks 9
To this base, we still need to apply the following;
+1 to any one ability score,
3 feats,
6 skill ranks,
9 tricks.
My first impressions of this are favourable, except for one issue, which I can only assume is an error: the natural armor bonus of +12 seems waaaaay too high.
I really do not believe that has been scaled back far enough, to form the level 1 starter package.
(Checks:......The gargantuan roc in the Bestiary has +14 nat armor; scaling that back does give a Medium creature +5. This seems way out of step, considering that a flyer has to be lighter, and more of the body mass has to be wing.)
Checking against the other animals in the Core Rules, a +5 bonus beats every other creature, except the boar (+6). Close contenders are the crocodile, horse and shark, at +4.
Given that flying creatures should, by rights, be lighter, and less robust, than earthbound creatures, I would have to say that is waaaay out. This should presumably be scaled back to the +1/+2 ballpark of the majority of companions. This does seem to imply that the roc in the Bestiary is similarly over-burdened with armour, too.
The movement rate will need to be tweaked; since this is a bird chassis, it obviously favours flight over walking on its stalky legs.
To reflect a hippogriff, increase the land speed to that of a horse, or slightly less, and bring the flight speed down to compensate.
Thoughts?
Overall Snorter this seems very doable/workable.
I'd have no problem with this as a GM, if any PC's wanted to go this route.
I see what you are getting at regarding the natural armor, and I agree with you on how to go about resolving it.
Nice work.
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
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I see what you are getting at regarding the natural armor, and I agree with you on how to go about resolving it.
I think I would also restrict the ability to wear barding.
Apart from the obvious issues of carrying capacity (and while on that note, I don't believe a flyer should benefit as much from the quadruped bonus to carrying capacity, even for land movement, and especially not when flying), I think a flyer will need far more freedom to stretch.An outright ban on Armor proficiencies may work, but would that be seen as too draconian?
Increasing the cost of customised barding isn't going to stop any PC of this level, but the effectiveness of barding should be dramatically reduced, as there will be more gaps in the armor, and the valuable wings will be hanging outside.
The 3-dimensional nature of the movement will reveal more vulnerable areas; a horse with a long skirt keeps its underside covered. A winged horse, even wearing the same skirt, travelling above you can be stabbed from below.
A land mount can choose its facing, take a crooked path and turn as it goes, to be sure to always present an enemy with its most protected profile.
A flyer with less than perfect hovering maneuverability is subject to compulsory minimum speeds and turning restrictions, so may well expose its vulnerable areas when flying past an enemy or when banking for a turn.
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This is what we are using for Griffon Animal Companions in my game:
****************
A Paladin may choose a Griffon as the focus of their Divine Bond, with some limitations. Rather than the Griffon acting as an Animal Companion of the Paladin's Level, the Griffon acts as an Animal Companion of the Paladin's Level -3.
I could have sworn I replied to this yesterday, but oh well.
This is precisely what I was pondering in the original post.
Giving the creature an effective 'level adjustment' to offset some natural advantage, as used to happen in 3.5 with the larger druid companions.
Being able to start from level 5, with a large flyer, with pounce, scent and darkvision is rather good, but obviously, it will be weaker than a horse of the same level.
Going by the table alone, the advances will be down by 2HD, -1 BAB, -1 Fort/Ref, -1 Feat, -1 Str/Dex, no evasion or ability score increase. (which certainly makes the Boon Companion feat pay off, for the griffon, at least.)
The horse will already have had its +2 Str/Con increase, and has a higher base Con, so the durability of the horse, by comparison, is not to be sniffed at.
I'm happy with the roc-re-skinning to represent a hippogriff, as the front end of a hippogriff is far more bird-like, so I'm effectively taking a large bird, for which there are already companion rules, and sticking a horse's ass on the back. LOL.
The griffon, being more lion-like, benefits from its own progression, to reflect the abilities like pounce, rake, etc.
How did you decide on the numbers you used?
Did you start with the large cat companion chassis, and tweak those, or did you reverse-engineer a full-grown griffon. If the latter, did you have a target PC level at which the stats would match the typical specimen in the Bestiary?
Okay; going with the roc stats, as the chassis for a re-skinned hippogriff/griffon companion, I come up with the following tools;
Level 7 Companion stats from universal table: 6HD, +4 BAB, Saves +5/+5/+2, 6 skills, 3 feats, +4 AC, +2 Str/Dex, +3 tricks, link, share spells, evasion, +1 ability, devotion.
Bestiary Companion Starting Statistics: Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor; Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11; Special Qualities low-light vision.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.
These combine to give the following base abilities;
ROC, Paladin’s Mount (Level 7)
Augmented Animal
N Large Animal
Init +4, Senses Perception +1, low-light
Languages Common,
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AC 25 (+4 Dex, +12 natural, -1 size), touch 13, flat-footed 21
hp 33 (6d8+6 HD)
CMD +15
DR
Immune
Resist
Vulnerable
Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +3, evasion, devotion (+4 morale vs enchantment)
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Spd 20’, fly 80’.
Base Atk +4; CMB +11
Atk Options 2 talons +10 (1d6+6+grab), bite +10 (1d8+6)
Special Actions
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Abilities Str 22, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11 +1 extra ability boost
SQ link, share spells
Feats +3 Feats
Skills (6) Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).Tricks 9
To this base, we still need to apply the following;
+1 to any one ability score,
3 feats,
6 skill ranks,
9 tricks.My first impressions of this are favourable, except for one issue, which I can only assume is an error: the natural armor bonus of +12 seems waaaaay too high.
I really do not believe that has been scaled back far enough, to...
i really like the stats for this mount for me and think i should be allowed to summon it as soon as yaaaay
You know what you're doing here, I presume? Any chance of similar positive responses regarding the Scout player in your group? Without joking? For once?I'm posting my thoughts aloud on this one, since it has more potential to be useful to more potential players out there, and to provoke some kind of precedent for PCs adopting eligible creatures from future bestiaries.
Your crazy-ass character-retcon has less potential for mass appeal, unfortunately.
I was just nudging you for an email reply really - not a message board poll. And less of the crazy-ass! But more of the retcon. I'll be more on topic next post.
i really like the stats for this mount for me and think i should be allowed to summon it as soon as yaaaaySince it made you break your 16-month vow of silence, it must be good. Maybe too good...<stroke chin>...
You DID email us about this thread though y'know.
Lower AC. (20?)
Faster land speed. (30?)
Slower air speed. (60?)
Feat restrictions or 'pre-qualifications'?
No med or higher armour or load whilst flying.
Less worrying about 3D movement and combat and especially the efficaciousness of barding in aerial combat. PF combat is NOT simulationist enough for this.
Other revisions as part of play test, with Lee being fully on board with that concept.
Makes me wish I was the DMs pet project...
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Lower AC. (20?)
Dropping it by 4, to 21, to reflect a starting value of +1.
Faster land speed. (30?)
3.5 Hippogriff says 50. Same as a horse, so can't argue with that.
Slower air speed. (60?)
Actually, 3.5 Hippogriff was 100 (average). Faster than I thought. Faster than a griffon.
Feat restrictions or 'pre-qualifications'?
There's a list of suggestions in the Animal Companion rules; having higher Int means they could theoretically take other feats, but I'd still reserve the right of veto over anything not physically possible or unlikely.
No med or higher armour or load whilst flying.
I get a light load max of 459lb; that's going to be tough but not impossible to keep to, if he intends to ride it in full plate, with all his gear, and take barding as well. Passengers are probably out of the question.
Am I right that if the mount goes over a light load, it just falls out of the sky?No speed reduction, or dropping to a worse maneuverability class?
Less worrying about 3D movement and combat and especially the efficaciousness of barding in aerial combat. PF combat is NOT simulationist enough for this.
I'm just thinking aloud, preparing myself for the inevitable queries of why it can't wear full plate.
There's other threads on the subject of barding, and I'm not so sure that what some view as heavy horse armour would actually provide the same protection as heavy armour on a human, given the need to leave exposed areas for ease of movement.Other revisions as part of play test, with Lee being fully on board with that concept.
Of course.
Makes me wish I was the DMs pet project...I'll remember that next time you go for a solo scouting mission round a mansion I have no map for!
Hey! You could've just said I couldn't open the locked door... problem solved!