I should think you could, since a sword cane is essentially a rapier disguised in a cane.
It definitely should be "finessible".
I'd definitely classify it as a rapier, and allow finesse.
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I don't see why everyone thinks it should be entitled to this classification. The weapon already has a HUGE bonus, ie., That it can be drawn a part of an attack and catch an opponent off-guard and flat footed if he is not aware that you are armed. Yea a DC 20 perception check isn't super high but this is a handy little feature if you ask me. It is a weapon meant for sneak attacks and ambushes.
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I was expecting it too, and was quite surprised that it is NOT Finesseable.
I own one and it is really similar to a rapier.
I am wondering how you can simulate the old combat style where you hold the sword-cane in one hand and its scabbard (the cane part proper) in the other hand. Any idea ?
twf giving the scabbard the stats or a club
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I am wondering how you can simulate the old combat style where you hold the sword-cane in one hand and its scabbard (the cane part proper) in the other hand. Any idea ?
Treat your cane as a heavy scabbard and take the Equipment Trick (Heavy Scabbard) feat (found in Adventurer's Armory). Alternatively:
You wield both parts of your cane sword.
Prerequisites: Dex 13+
Benefit: While wielding a cane sword, you can use the cane portion of the sword to gain a +1 shield bonus to AC. Alternatively, you can use the sheath portion of the cane sword as a club for two-weapon fighting.
You wield both parts of your cane sword.
Prerequisites: Dex 13+
Benefit: While wielding a cane sword, you can use the cane portion of the sword to gain a +1 shield bonus to AC. Alternatively, you can use the sheath portion of the cane sword as a club for two-weapon fighting.
*steals feat and runs cackling into the night*
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I don't see why everyone thinks it should be entitled to this classification. The weapon already has a HUGE bonus, ie., That it can be drawn a part of an attack and catch an opponent off-guard and flat footed if he is not aware that you are armed. Yea a DC 20 perception check isn't super high but this is a handy little feature if you ask me. It is a weapon meant for sneak attacks and ambushes.
The sword cane already has a threat range 3 times smaller than the rapier or the scimitar (which are the closest 1-handed martial weapons) : 20 instead of 18-20.
Compared to the longsword, it has half the threat range (20 instead of 19-20) and does damage one step lower (1d6 instead of 1d8). It is also 3 times costlier (45 GP instead of 15 GP).
I believe this weapon is already seriously nerfed in exchange of a "huge" bonus that is useful in very specific circumstances only. I believe making it finesseable would not make it overpowered and would be more consistent with its RL aspect and use (and strong similarity to the rapier).
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I believe this weapon is already seriously nerfed in exchange of a "huge" bonus that is useful in very specific circumstances only. I believe making it finesseable would not make it overpowered and would be more consistent with its RL aspect and use (and strong similarity to the rapier).
A larger damage die and crit range would do little to nothing to actually help this weapon do more than it already does, and does better than any other weapon. Surprise sneak attacks do not multiply sneak attack damage on critical hits and 1 extra damage on average means VERY little in the long run.
It is also worth noting that the weapon is twice the size and weight of a rapier, the same as a scimitar and longsword. The weight cap for light weapons is 2 pounds. I don't believe for a moment that this was an accident rather than a design choice.
Not everything needs a houserule.
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A larger damage die and crit range would do little to nothing to actually help this weapon do more than it already does, and does better than any other weapon. Surprise sneak attacks do not multiply sneak attack damage on critical hits and 1 extra damage on average means VERY little in the long run.
It is also worth noting that the weapon is twice the size and weight of a rapier, the same as a scimitar and longsword. The weight cap for light weapons is 2 pounds. I don't believe for a moment that this was an accident rather than a design choice.
Not everything needs a houserule.
I found nothing about the size of weapons. Did I miss something ?
Concerning the weight, I believe that it is the weight of the swordcane in its scabbard. The description after all mentions a "slender light blade".
I believe that you put too much importance on the ability of sneak attacking (through surprise) with it. You can only do it one round per fight and it requires very special circumstances to be better than any other weapon.
I also believe that 1 extra damage each attack is nothing to scoff at, especially when it is combined with a large threat range.
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I believe this weapon is already seriously nerfed in exchange of a "huge" bonus that is useful in very specific circumstances only. I believe making it finesseable would not make it overpowered and would be more consistent with its RL aspect and use (and strong similarity to the rapier).
A larger damage die and crit range would do little to nothing to actually help this weapon do more than it already does, and does better than any other weapon. Surprise sneak attacks do not multiply sneak attack damage on critical hits and 1 extra damage on average means VERY little in the long run.
It is also worth noting that the weapon is twice the size and weight of a rapier, the same as a scimitar and longsword. The weight cap for light weapons is 2 pounds. I don't believe for a moment that this was an accident rather than a design choice.
Not everything needs a houserule.
Elven Curve Blade weighs 7 pounds and can be used with weapon finesse. Also I think (not sure) that the Aldori Duelling Sword can be finessed. So I don't see why a sword cane CAN'T be if you want it to.
It is also worth noting that the weapon is twice the size and weight of a rapier, the same as a scimitar and longsword.
Sure, but that includes the 'scabbard' which is in this case is a rather significant potion of that size/wt.
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I found nothing about the size of weapons. Did I miss something ?
Concerning the weight, I believe that it is the weight of the swordcane in its scabbard. The description after all mentions a "slender light blade".
I believe that you put too much importance on the ability of sneak attacking (through surprise) with it. You can only do it one round per fight and it requires very special circumstances to be better than any other weapon.
I also believe that 1 extra damage each attack is nothing to scoff at, especially when it is combined with a large threat range.
Weapon Finesse allows for light weapons to be used, that is the bit about size... at least I think that is what you are asking.
If you count the scabbard then the scabbard need be included for any of the other weapons as well, double standards don't fly here. The weight listed for all of the weapons on the list included the weight of the scabbard, and typically they are made of metal not wood, which has much higher density/volume than wood does so...
On the note of the Elven Curved Blade; It is an exotic weapon that was specifically made to give you an option to use a 2 handed weapon with weapon finesse, another special case.
Even the average longsword is only about 1.5 inches thick. That is about the width from the first knuckle on your index finger to the tip of it. A rapier is about 1 inch.
The bit about the free sneak attack doesn't need to be an "inside initiative" bonus, either. You could easily off a Key NPC before they are aware they are doing anything more than having a good time at the pub. It allows you to appear unarmed while not (If not weaker depending on disguise and player ingenuity). It is not about "Being better" in any case, it is a special use weapon meant to be used in a specific way, and that is reflected in the design direction they took it. You wouldn't want to be caught in a swordfight with this weapon versus a real weapon and I think that is accurately reflected.
I disagree on the last point, upwards of 80% of the damage done in game is from static bonuses and bonus die, not from weapon damage range. I can see however with the inclusion of critical feats the player could take to make it a greater bonus.
In any case however I think things are as they should be here. Feel free to disagree, but I was simply trying to answer a rules question by the books.
If you count the scabbard then the scabbard need be included for any of the other weapons as well, double standards don't fly here. The weight listed for all of the weapons on the list included the weight of the scabbard, and typically they are made of metal not wood, which has much higher density/volume than wood does so...
I dont necessarily agree.
The design of the sword cane is that it is assumed to be carried in such a fashion, and is a bit unique in this respect. Other weapons dont necessarily have/need scabbards, and so the weight of a scabbard had never been included.
The notion being that I could use the sword cane as a makeshift club (listed weight) or draw it from its scabbard and discard the 'ballast' thus having a significantly lighter weapon.
My feeling is that like the rapier, this should be Fin weapon, and would allow it thus, as I dont believe it would be overpowering or unreasonable.
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The design of the sword cane is that it is assumed to be carried in such a fashion, and is a bit unique in this respect. Other weapons dont necessarily have/need scabbards, and so the weight of a scabbard had never been included.
No that is clearly wrong, the cost of the weapon and all stats on the statbock automatically assume all equipment related to the item.
Cost: This value is the weapon’s cost in gold pieces (gp)
or silver pieces (sp). The cost includes miscellaneous gear
that goes with the weapon, such as a scabbard or quiver.
In your case that would automatically give each player anywhere from 1-10 pounds of free encumbrance that is listed nowhere.
Sorry for ressurecting such old threads... but this is just about to come up in one of our games...
Have there been any new rulings or such on this? NOT even so much the Weapon finesse as a rule (though for sure my detective will eventually go that route...) But the sword cane/rapier correlation?
On a similar note... When introducing new weapons and such... how carefully are they fitting new products in with the old?
I've been debating between Rogue-Investigator... and Bard-Detective... Both of these characters are considered 'proficient' in simple weapons AND Rapier... but as the APG wasn't released at the time... Apparently not Sword Cane...
Though the dandy-bards and sneaky rogues are PERFECT for it...
My opinion would be that sword cane SHOULD share a proficiency with Rapier... Anything you can do with one.. you SHOULD be able to do with the other...
HATE the idea that my detective would have to spend an extra feat to get an 'Role-playing' weapon... that actually does less damage...
What if you made the scabbard from dark wood?
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Yes, this is a super old thread.
For your reference, I wanted to point out that Ultimate Equipment updated the sword cane to allow Weapon Finesse, but also gave the restriction that it could not be used in two hands to gain 1 1/2 times your strength mod to damage.
I am thrilled with this change, and want to share it with the world!