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Zasha, paladin of Iomade, is sacrificing herself defending a small corridor from a tribe of goblins, so that the party can safely get away and survive. Whenever she cuts a goblin down, two more emerge to take it's place. While she cant hold much longer, she does as best as she can by:
-using a heavy shield to pump her AC
or
-using a light shield/buckler, so she can use her lay on hands ability on herself
As a player of mine wants to play a paladin in my new group, he looked for an optimal classical build. While the archetype from the books looks like she wields a full plate, longsword and heavy shield, we wondered why she uses the heavy shield. It is very impractical for the lay on hands ability, as you always have to use an action to either get your shield off, or get your weapon sheathed.
If you have played a paladin, tell me from your expirience the solution to this situation.
Zasha, paladin of Iomade, is sacrificing herself defending a small corridor from a tribe of goblins, so that the party can safely get away and survive. Whenever she cuts a goblin down, two more emerge to take it's place. While she cant hold much longer, she does as best as she can by:
-using a heavy shield to pump her AC
or
-using a light shield/buckler, so she can use her lay on hands ability on herselfAs a player of mine wants to play a paladin in my new group, he looked for an optimal classical build. While the archetype from the books looks like she wields a full plate, longsword and heavy shield, we wondered why she uses the heavy shield. It is very impractical for the lay on hands ability, as you always have to use an action to either get your shield off, or get your weapon sheathed.
If you have played a paladin, tell me from your expirience the solution to this situation.
Personally, I'd allow her to "touch herself" without actually using her hands. Don't know what the RAW would say about it though.
Otherwise, get quickdraw. You can sheathe your weapon as a free action, touch, and then draw it again.
While the archetype from the books looks like she wields a full plate, longsword and heavy shield, we wondered why she uses the heavy shield. It is very impractical for the lay on hands ability, as you always have to use an action to either get your shield off, or get your weapon sheathed.
I believe that paladins may lay on hands on themselves as a swift action. While Im not sure if the paladin has to actively touch himself with his hands, I sertainly wouldnt have a problem if he didnt need to.
I guess that he would still be in trouble if he wanted to lay on hands to heal someone else.
Not much help I know.. just my thoughts..
Cheers!
Personally, I'd allow her to "touch herself" without actually using her hands. Don't know what the RAW would say about it though.
Otherwise, get quickdraw. You can sheathe your weapon as a free action, touch, and then draw it again.
Well, everyone knows it's faster to touch yourself than to touch someone else... >_> <_<
Ok, obvious innuendo joke aside, I'd say that she's technically always touching herself, but to use it on anyone else she'd hafta ditch the shield, get a smaller one, or get quickdraw, as String said.
Seconding "she's always in contact with herself". If the healing works through her, she doesn't have to add the next step of touching anything. The magic is already where it needs to be.
I also want to point out that I'm demonstrating a downright heroic level of restraint right now.
Just saying.
C'mon...fail that will save...you know you want to ^_-
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C'mon...fail that will save...you know you want to ^_-Seconding "she's always in contact with herself". If the healing works through her, she doesn't have to add the next step of touching anything. The magic is already where it needs to be.
I also want to point out that I'm demonstrating a downright heroic level of restraint right now.
Just saying.
please don't this is hard enough as it is
Ha. Hard.
....
i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash
C'mon...fail that will save...you know you want to ^_-
please don't this is hard enough as it is
Ha. Hard.
....
i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash
*cues "Touch Myself" on the soundtrack*
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*cues "Touch Myself" on the soundtrack*C'mon...fail that will save...you know you want to ^_-please don't this is hard enough as it is
Ha. Hard.
....
i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash i will not write seelah/iomedae femslash
You monster.
You monster.
** spoiler omitted **
Uh huh.
That is all. ^_-
Thanks for the information, but please stay on topic.
As for Quick draw, it doesn't allow to sheath a weapon as a free action, only to draw one.
Thanks for the information, but please stay on topic.
As for Quick draw, it doesn't allow to sheath a weapon as a free action, only to draw one.
Ahem...yeah, sorry about that. >_> <_<
Try a weapon cord, from Adventurer's Armory. Lets you drop it as a free action (say, after you've hit the enemy), LoH as a swift, then swift the next round to "retrieve" your weapon. Not ideal, but again...I'd say you're always able to LoH yourself.
The Lay on Hands ability explicitly requires a free hand to use the ability. It does not explicitly say this requirement is waived for self-healing. Ergo, whether the paladin heals herself someone else, the ability requires a free hand.
If this paladin is less than level 6, there is no problem:
Round 1: Attack a goblin as a Standard action, 5' move backward, sheathe the sword as a Move action, LOH self as a Swift action.
Round 2: LOH again (if desired) as a Swift action, draw the sword as a Move action, 5' move forward (if needed), attack a goblin as a Standard action.
That allows you to attack each round and still LOH twice if needed, all without losing your weapon or provoking any AoO.
If you are 6th level or higher, well, this plan requires you to give up your Full Attack action since you can only attack as a Standard action each round. If you take Quick draw, then you can Full-Attack in the second round, so you only give up one attack. I don't think that's worth a feat, myself, but your mileage may vary.
If you prefer to use an axe, or mace, or anything else that is not carried in a sheath, then this tactic won't work, though you can use a Light shield rather than Heavy and use your shield hand to hold your weapon while you LOH. This does cost a point of AC because of the smaller shield. Maybe that's why paladins who use shields are always depicted with longswords.
If you use a 2H weapon, you can temporarily hold it with one hand while you LOH, so there is a never a problem - you can even Full-Attack every round and LOH as needed.
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The Lay on Hands ability explicitly requires a free hand to use the ability. It does not explicitly say this requirement is waived for self-healing. Ergo, whether the paladin heals herself someone else, the ability requires a free hand.
While I agree that according to RAW it works this way, I cannot rationalize on any logical level the need for you to channel power FROM yourself TO yourself. I rule that you are always "touching yourself."
On a related note, if you are successfully grappling an enemy, touch attacks should always be an automatic success, as you are already touching the enemey. Unless you are somehow grappling it from across the room via magic or (ridiculous) feats that allow you to grapple with arrows.
The Lay on Hands ability explicitly requires a free hand to use the ability. It does not explicitly say this requirement is waived for self-healing. Ergo, whether the paladin heals herself someone else, the ability requires a free hand.While I agree that according to RAW it works this way, I cannot rationalize on any logical level the need for you to channel power FROM yourself TO yourself. I rule that you are always "touching yourself."
Makes sense to me. It's just worth noting what is RAW and what is Rule-0.
In defense of RAW, maybe it's not the actual touch that requires a Swift action. Maybe it's a quick hand gesture, something like tracing the shape of the deity's holy symbol in the air to invoke the channel. Yeah, that's not explicitly stated and it's fluff rather than mechanic, but it would at least explain why a hand is needed.
But I hear your objection and I'll note that in our campaign we don't require a paladin to have a free hand to heal himself either.
But I hear your objection and I'll note that in our campaign we don't require a paladin to have a free hand to heal himself either.
+1
I played a paladin with a heavy shield in CoT and my DM ruled that I didn't need a hand free to heal myself, only the swift action.
The Lay on Hands ability explicitly requires a free hand to use the ability. It does not explicitly say this requirement is waived for self-healing. Ergo, whether the paladin heals herself someone else, the ability requires a free hand.While I agree that according to RAW it works this way, I cannot rationalize on any logical level the need for you to channel power FROM yourself TO yourself. I rule that you are always "touching yourself."
Think of it as like a somatic component, or that it's not the paladin's internal power, but the hands that create the channel to something else.
I prefer to stick to the 'hands-necessary' interpretation. If it's a more ambient power-within thing, that begs the question of why hands, as opposed to any sustained contact...
why hands?
As opposed to any sustained contact with whatever the paladin's faith decrees:
"Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me" - Psalms 23
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In defense of RAW, maybe it's not the actual touch that requires a Swift action. Maybe it's a quick hand gesture, something like tracing the shape of the deity's holy symbol in the air to invoke the channel. Yeah, that's not explicitly stated and it's fluff rather than mechanic, but it would at least explain why a hand is needed.
Perhaps I'm remembering a 3rd/3.5 rule (which would explain why I can't find the wording I'm looking for in my Pathfinder books), but I was under the impression that Supernatural abilities do not require somatic components? They certainly don't provoke AoOs, but I recall (Su) abilities being usable even when bound. It is, at any rate, irrelevant to our immediate issue, just something that occurred to me.
Related to our discussion however, I can fully see needing to have your holy symbol in hand to invoke your Lay on Hands, in much the same way that a cleric must brandish theirs in order to Channel Energy.
Also, Blake, I would just like to say that the clarity you bring to damn near every topic you post on is an incredible asset to ascertaining a solution to whatever problem is presented. I commend you. ^_^
You can drop a weapon as a free action.
You can move a weapon from your left hand to right hand(or vice versa) as a free action.
I am a paladin with a heavy shield strapped to my left arm and a longsword in my right hand.
I drop the shield(free action). I move my sword from my right hand to my left hand(free action). My right hand is now free to touch anything I want.
Now at this point, it is important to note.
1. I do not get the benefit of my shield because I am not actually wielding it.
2. If I try to make an attack with my sword there would be a huge penalty(off hand + shield armor penalty).
Lay on hand on myself(swift action)
or Lay on hands on someone else(standard action)
Swap my sword back to my right hand(free action)
Grip my shield(free action).
In short, you can easily let go of your shield to free up a hand. If the shield is strapped to your armor, it isn't going anywhere. The worst effect is that you will lose the benefit of the shield until you hold it correctly again.
Also, Blake, I would just like to say that the clarity you bring to damn near every topic you post on is an incredible asset to ascertaining a solution to whatever problem is presented. I commend you. ^_^
Ah, well, thanks!
One is just a humble tarrasque, shedding light in the shadowy corners of Golarion where one can...
In short, you can easily let go of your shield to free up a hand. If the shield is strapped to your armor, it isn't going anywhere. The worst effect is that you will lose the benefit of the shield until you hold it correctly again.
Is this RAW? I was always under the assumption that you couldn't use a heavy-shield-hand for any reason while the shield was strapped to your arm. At least, that's what the equipment chapter says.
In fact,
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
So is that a logic ruling of yours? Or is there another ruling that reverses this that I've missed? I've personally never held a heavy steel shield, so I can't comment on the logistics behind it. Perhaps attempting to hold it up while it is only strapped to you makes it so heavy you can't wield it, not that you can't hold it? And that's the distinction they were going for?
In fact,Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.So is that a logic ruling of yours? Or is there another ruling that reverses this that I've missed? I've personally never held a heavy steel shield, so I can't comment on the logistics behind it. Perhaps attempting to hold it up while it is only strapped to you makes it so heavy you can't wield it, not that you can't hold it? And that's the distinction they were going for?
If something is gripped, then it is possible to let go.
I have always read that as meaning, you can't use your hand for anything else while you are using the shield. It is not like you hand is super glued to the shield making you incapable of letting go of the shield.
With a light shield and buckler, you can hold something in you hand while still getting the full defense benefit of the shield. With a heavy shield you must to grip the shield to get the shield bonus. That to me implies that you can let go of the shield and use your hand for something else, but you will lose the shield bonus if you do.
That actually makes a lot of sense. I'd never really read it that way. Alright, so you can use that hand to hold something, but while doing so you lose the shield's shield bonus to AC. You can't use that hand to actually do anything, however.
I could, however move my mace to my shield hand and cast a cleric spell. Yes?
That actually makes a lot of sense. I'd never really read it that way. Alright, so you can use that hand to hold something, but while doing so you lose the shield's shield bonus to AC. You can't use that hand to actually do anything, however.
I could, however move my mace to my shield hand and cast a cleric spell. Yes?
Yes, but while you are doing that you lose the shield bonus. That can be really important if you get hit with an AoO/Readied attack while casting that spell.
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You can drop a weapon as a free action.
You can move a weapon from your left hand to right hand(or vice versa) as a free action.I am a paladin with a heavy shield strapped to my left arm and a longsword in my right hand.
I drop the shield(free action). I move my sword from my right hand to my left hand(free action). My right hand is now free to touch anything I want.
Now at this point, it is important to note.
1. I do not get the benefit of my shield because I am not actually wielding it.
2. If I try to make an attack with my sword there would be a huge penalty(off hand + shield armor penalty).
Point n°2 is not correct :
Tracking right or left handedness isn't something we bother with in Pathfinder. The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.
If you have a longsword in your right hand and a shield in your left, and you only attack with a shield bash in a round, that shield bash is NOT considered an off-hand or secondary attack for that round.
It's a relatively easy bit of house rules to institute handedness, though, if you're looking for that level of additional detail... but that's not a level of detail we want to assume for the core game.
(emphasis mine)
If you attack only with your sword, there is no off-hand penalty (should be called off-weapon penalty really).
And shield armor penalty applies to your attack only if you are not proficient with Shields.
Charender, except for the above comment, I must say that the way you adjudicate the whole situation seems quite right and elegant to me.
However, I remember reading somewhere one of the designers saying that a Cleric could temporarily free his shield-carrying hand to present his holy symbol (as an exception to the rules IIRC). I do not remember if he was talking about a heavy Shield though, but if he was, a similar case could be made for the laying on hands.
First, from a gamist perspective, punishing armor-wearers to the point that they are not allowed to cast the majority of their spells is silly and impractical. There are all kinds of ways to get around this, some of which are mentioned above.
But, from a simulationist perspective, you cannot really "release" your shield hand. Remember, what you're holding is a strap of thick leather that basically pins your hand to the back of the shield. Unless you can "retract" your hand up into your wrist like a turtle retracts its legs into its shell, then your hand is still pinned to the back of your shield, even if you open your fingers.
The only way to get your hand out of that strap is to slide your shield down your arm far enough that the leather strap passes beyond your fingertips. But doing so means you're almost removing your shield. This is not really a problem, except that after you're done goofing around with your spell, your shield is still dangling from your hand and needs to be "donned".
The equipment section gives rules for donning a shield, and it's not a Free action.
Too much simulationism? Probably. But that's how shields actually work.
As for me, I never bother with any of this. My interpretation of "free hand" does not require that hand to be empty. Yes, that's probably a houserule, or at the very least, a very liberal interpretation of what "free" means.
Thus, a paladin or cleric who has a weapon and a shield still has a free hand even while it is holding a sword or mace - as long as he doesn't use that weapon for anything, he can still gesture well enough for spell casting (or laying on hands).
Likewise, a wizard can hold a staff in his left hand and a wand in his right hand, and can still cast a spell with somatic components by waving around his wand/hand to fulfill that requirement. It means he can't use the wand this round, but since he only has one standard action anyway, that shouldn't be an issue.
Yes, that's not RAW, but I've never had a player complain.
If you are going to go that far down the simulationist route, then there really is nothing to stop you from gripping the shield and something else at the same time. The grip is just a strap of leather across the palm of your hand. Your fingers are not glued to it. The RAW is there to state that you cannot hold anything in that hand while gripping the shield properly.
(emphasis mine)If you attack only with your sword, there is no off-hand penalty (should be called off-weapon penalty really).
And shield armor penalty applies to your attack only if you are not proficient with Shields.
I was basing the shield penalty on this
Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
You take a -1 penalty for using a weapon while wearing a buckler on that same arm. -1 just happens to the the bucklers ACP.
The offhand penalty was older rules. I was mostly trying to find another penalty to throw on top of the ACP. A non-profiency penalty is probably more appropiate, but that is more of a house rule. If a player had a heavy shield strapped to their arm and for some crazy reason they were trying to make an attack with a weapon they were holding in the hand of the same arm. I would let them do it, but at a -2(heavy shield ACP) -4(non-profiencient) = -6 to hit.
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This is why the archer paladin is superior, they can hold a position and smite at range or pummel people to death using their bow (assuming the took the weapon option that makes it work like a quarter staff) or spiked gauntlet while wearing a buckler. No 5 foot steps, no hesitation, no Aoo, just all killing, and self-healing, all the time. I'd also start by lighting the area in front of me on fire so that they have to stand in it to attack me, probably killing them, because they are just goblins.
This is why the archer paladin is superior, they can hold a position and smite at range or pummel people to death using their bow (assuming the took the weapon option that makes it work like a quarter staff) or spiked gauntlet while wearing a buckler. No 5 foot steps, no hesitation, no Aoo, just all killing, and self-healing, all the time. I'd also start by lighting the area in front of me on fire so that they have to stand in it to attack me, probably killing them, because they are just goblins.
Or a paladin with a two-hand weapon.
Quickdraw feat +Quickdraw Light shield. Can be readied or sheathed as a free action. Problem solved.