The “monk (still broken)” thread got me thinking. Just how are PCs supposed to hit super-high AC opponents, and still maintain balance?
A 16th-level “warrior”, with good BAB, 26 Strength, +5 weapon, and Weapon Focus has an attack bonus of +30. Fighter levels will add +4 attack (Greater Weapon Focus, +3 weapon training), barbarian +3 attack (Rage bonus to Strength), ranger up to +8 (favored enemy), and so on.
A 16th-level “adventurer” (eg bard, rogue) with medium BAB, 22 Strength , +5 weapon, and Weapon Focus has an attack bonus of +24.
The warriors should easily hit the following CR 20 monsters: balor (AC 36), pit fiend (AC 38), red wyrm dragon (AC 40), tarn linnorm (AC 36). The adventurers will find it harder to hit those CR 20 monsters. If the PCs encounter a monster of AC 48 or higher, then the adventurers will only hit on a 20, but the warriors will have a hard time of it, especially with second and later attacks- are spells meant to be the strategy used to take down such foes? Even the CR 20 monsters named above would have a hard time hitting an AC 51 PC for example (less so the dragon) unless boosted by buffs or certain magic items.
Of course, greater dispel magic used to shut down ongoing spell effects and magic items temporarily would help the meleeists/archers immensely, so perhaps that is the only way to reduce such ACs. Hmm... perhaps I’ve answered my own question! Well OK, not quite. If the PCs are able to easily fight AC48+, then I guess that they’d easily wade through typical balor and tarn linnorm ACs.
Well, 22 is really low for a to-hit stat for a combat-focused character. So, add a couple points there. Bards have inspire courage, which is +5 to the whole party. Inquisitors have +5 to hit from their Judgment. Alchemists are attacking Touch AC. Rogues and Summoners have to rely on flanking and other miscellaneous bonuses, though Summoners probably won't want to be in melee combat by level 20.
This is one of the many reasons why single enemy encounters dont work well. A 16th level party should never be fighting a single CR 20 opponent. An encounter of CR 20 total is fine, but it should be among multiple enemies, which significantly reduces this problem.
Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a +5 weapon a bit much for a 16th level PC?
Not really Ender, no.
AC is only one form of defence, and not even one of the better ones at high level.
Ender_rpm wrote: Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a +5 weapon a bit much for a 16th level PC? No, not at all. It's actually weak for a 16th level PC. A plain +5 weapon is only 50,000 gold (plus the cost of the masterwork weapon, so 50,400 or so for anything but a composite bow); 16th level PCs are supposed to have ~315,000 gold in gear. I would expect a 16th level PC to have access to (if not actually own) a +6 or +7 equivalent weapon.
Aid Another, Flank, Feint, etc.
A +5 weapon is "only" 50,000 gps, right? So not that big of an investment for a 16th level character focusing on combat.
Your 'Adventurers' are doing it wrong, in my opinion. Why is the rogue attacking without flanking? (+2) and not being invisible (another +2), for an example? Why isn't the bard running Inspire Courage (+3 hit and damage) and Greater Heroism? (+4 hit)
For that matter, why is the Rogue's to-hit so small? He should have EXACTLY the same hitting stat as the dedicated fighter.
So, the Bard should have +31 to hit, and the Rogue, 28-30.
If combat is their thing, they should effectively have an equal attack bonus at that point - of course, flanking grants a +2 for the fighter, and the song adds bonuses for them, too, so basically, your fighter would have an attack bonus of 40 or so, and thus hit the pit fiend on a roll of 2 while power attacking.
Super-high AC, right. T_T
In any case, 'adventurer' types require a different approach to combat than 'warrior' types.
The examples I gave were just that, examples. They didn't include bonuses for tactics. (Well, I expect that a rogue would use Weapon Finesse and have Dex 26, but a bard probably has Cha as their best stat.)
Single high CR foes do often make for problematic encounters. Either the party can struggle to impact them (high AC, high Saves) while being vulnerable to 1 round KOs (Full Attacks from CR 20 foes can often outright kill level 16 PCs) or the action economy favors the PC so much that the monster just becomes a collection of HPs. This can result in unpredictable and unsatisfying combats. Like Kolokotroni suggested it can be more rewarding to instead create a EL20 encounter out of several CR 15-16 foes.
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Maybe I'm doing it "wrong", but even at late mid-levels, the groups I'm in just don't have those stats of 26. Maybe it's because almost all the campaigns I've ever been in don't have wishes, tomes of physical perfection (or whatever the name currently is), belts of giant strength or many other stat boosts. More than once we've been in the zone where the warrior needs a 16+ on his d20 to hit and everyone else needs a 20. In these cases, only the action economy mentioned above keeps it from being an automatic TPK.
vuron wrote: Single high CR foes do often make for problematic encounters. Either the party can struggle to impact them (high AC, high Saves) while being vulnerable to 1 round KOs (Full Attacks from CR 20 foes can often outright kill level 16 PCs) or the action economy favors the PC so much that the monster just becomes a collection of HPs. This can result in unpredictable and unsatisfying combats. Like Kolokotroni suggested it can be more rewarding to instead create a EL20 encounter out of several CR 15-16 foes. Vuron, you're absolutely right, but I'm trying to avoid spoilers! ;-)
Slim, don't worry about it. I guess that if you're using a creature from a bestiary or published adventure and it seems impossible to hit, you (as DM) could always treat the creature(s) as having a lower AC if the battle is too frustrating for the players.
@vuron, +1
@SlimGaugeWell...
If you don't go by WBL, of course you'll have different numbers - it'll still work fine if the GM pays attention to what they're throwing against the PCs.
That being said, one of the most rewarding games I've played was where there were NO buyable magic items - oh, maybe potions and wands. At level 14, I had a +1 shocking adamantite rapier I'd had the dwarves craft for me at level 5, and the wizard enchant for me --- all PCs. In PF it's even more feasible with Master Craftsman feat.
Still, even worst case you'll only have ~5 points lower numbers. (no magic belt nor a tome) So the bard will be hitting with a 24 and the fighter with a 32 or so.
@Julian Neale, while a Bard _might_ start with charisma as their best stat, they don't really need it to go above 16. That being said, they do require multiple decent abilities, which does affect the play style quite a bit. Consider the bard who goes for dazzling display/shatter defenses to increase the hitting chances (-2 from shaken, and flat-footed) then skirmishes with a reach weapon, lunge and great cleave, for an example. Bard/Dragon Disciples are excellent melee combatants, I'd think.
Remember the group should use tactics. Yes the main "fighters" are going to hit better and more often. But they can help the clerics/bards/rogues etc hit in combat too.
As stated above there is Flank, Aid, etc. But you can also use those nice critical feats to give conditions that lower AC. The wizards and clerics can use other "Debuff" spells to make the monster "softer".
All members of a party bring something to the game, and just being able to reliably swing a sword is only one item in a parties action in a game session.
I'm with you Julian - your "adventurers" are the ones who split focus a bit and aren't super-maxed for combat but still make attacks - and I do think you answered your own question a bit.
Think of AC/DamagePotential as a triangular wedge on a graph. At one end is super high AC/low damage, at the other is super high damage/low AC. Adjusting the AC widens the damage by larger and larger amounts, as more people hit more often, with more attacks.
A key thing to remember about that triangle is that total damage is proportional to the *square* or higher of the odds of hitting. The party will do about 4x the physical damage if the warrior needs an 11 to hit, than if he needs a 16.
Basically, party tactics are adjusted by the AC situation. Taking your examples:
AC 30 creature: The warriors wail on them, hitting 2-2.5 attacks per round (ignoring haste/dual-wielding etc.). The adventurers get in about 1.5 hits (made up for with sneak attack, or better magical defenses, etc). Casters can focus on preventing unnecessary danger to the party (whether by killing things or healing/blocking conditions). No need to move the wedge, you're getting almost all of it already.
AC 35 creature: Warriors still hit 1.5-2 per round, adventurers probably still get a hit. Casters may focus more on boosting combat by knocking down AC (dispel, etc.) or raising attack bonuses to move the wedge and up the party damage potential.
AC 40 creature: Warriors have trouble hitting more than once, adventurers are lucky to hit at all. Depending on how tough (# of hp) the foe is, moving the wedge might be better, or going for magic might be better.
AC 45+ creature: Warriors might hit, adventurers shouldn't bother before bonuses. The party can focus extremely hard on moving the wedge (everyone into flank, aid another, every spell possible), or warriors hold the line while everyone else uses other means to take it down (spells, items, etc.) That choice depends largely on how much the wedge can be moved (things to dispel, lots of dex to deny, have a bard?) and SR/saves.
For this "casters" includes things like Bards inspiring courage, etc., anyone who has major non-attack actions that affect the battle. That includes "warriors" using combat maneuvers in some cases.
I kinda learned this lesson when I threw a paragon pit fiend at my 30th level epic group once, without checking the stats first. AC 72 if I recall correctly - even the mightiest character, fully buffed (*with* the Bard), was only hitting on a 17. Since SR/saves were through the roof, focus *had* to be on moving the wedge. In the end, it took a grapple from an Elder Treant to let the Rogue deal lingering sneak attacks.
Key thing to remember is that the AC of the creature and the attack bonus of the party at the beginning of the fight is not the same as at the middle and the end.
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