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@ overdark:I was going to say the same thing. They are basically the most useless class. You search for some threads around here and you will see the issues people have with them
OK, I guess it's not so difficult. But still that is pretty much un-hittable by MOST monsters (and NPC's), my Monk can't reliably generate attacks like that.First off, high AC is one of the few things a monk is actually good at. Many enemies can safely ignore the monk, or use combat maneouvers against him (I know that he's got good CMD, but a Tarn Linnorm has quite good CMB too), because he isn't that good of a damage dealer.
A monk can have good survivability, but he isn't that good on the offensive side, so many smart opponents (which most opponents at that level are) will just kill the other party members first and then get to him when he's alone.
I never once felt useless during the entire adventure path, it helps to be beating up on low-Con elves for the majority of the path, but even when fighting demons I was still useful. One moment that springs to mind was during the fianle while fighting some big snake demon thing (Xacabra or something like that). Round 1 - we all close with it and make our attacks, he casts mirror image. Round 2 - the sorcerer cast magic missile, I flurry the rest of his images away, our fighter uses her holy outsider bane curveblade to critical him twice. End of fight. This thread wasn't about how monks are useless, its about how their AC gets out of hand at high levels, due to 2 bonuses that nobody else gets (class bonus and Wis bonus).
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I can't give a full rundown on all my items, but here's the highlights.
Monk's robe, +8 bracers of AC, +3 prot. ring, +4 ki straps (amulet of mighty fists different slot), +4 belt (Str/Dex/Con), +6 Wis headband, +5 amulet of natural armor, ring of sustenance.This could be a big part of the problem. You use a custom item that is reasonable and understandable, but it's not core and will change the result.
Also, your wealth by level should be about 240 000 - yours is up in 373 000, and you said you have more items apart from this.
EDIT: If you built it core only and following the WBL guidlines, you'd have to drop the amulet of natural armor (since you NEED the mighty fists), as well as an additional 123k items. I'd say the tome as well as having bracers of armor +5 and a headband +4 instead.
This would drop your AC by 10-11 points though. So core, your AC isn't that impressive at all.
All the treasure we got was straight from the books including the +3 book (free), I could replace the ki straps with brass knuckles from the APG for the exact same effect, and take up NO slot. I think the list of magic items is actually pretty complete, I don't have my character sheet handy though so I can't be 100% sure.
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High Monk AC isn't a problem. You can't win a battle of attrition if you are nigh-on-unhittable, but the rest of your buddies are going down. And before your not-that-exactly-amazing Monk damage makes a major dent in the CR 20 monster, your friends are bleeding to death and hoping that you will just grab them and run away.
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Why are you assuming you can just run? I thought linnorms could fly which is normally faster than a monk can run. The other point is that if all the monk can contribute is running away it just shows how useless it is.Ok, so the monster just killed the rest of my party, he still can't hit me 75% of the time, and I can still just run away. The point was up until the very end of the adventure path all our characters were fairly balanced, then my AC went 12-15 points higher than the rest of the party, now monsters that can hit me reliably (ATK +37 or so) hit everyone else in the party EVERY SINGLE TIME. (well except 1's)First off, high AC is one of the few things a monk is actually good at. Many enemies can safely ignore the monk, or use combat maneouvers against him (I know that he's got good CMD, but a Tarn Linnorm has quite good CMB too), because he isn't that good of a damage dealer.
A monk can have good survivability, but he isn't that good on the offensive side, so many smart opponents (which most opponents at that level are) will just kill the other party members first and then get to him when he's alone.
See you're trying to make me suck, sure one on one against a Tarn Linnorm (CR ??) all I can do is run. And yes I can run (hello, abundant step?), but with the rest of my party, I'm guessing the linnorm is dead in 4 rounds tops.
All the treasure we got was straight from the books including the +3 book (free), I could replace the ki straps with brass knuckles from the APG for the exact same effect, and take up NO slot. I think the list of magic items is actually pretty complete, I don't have my character sheet handy though so I can't be 100% sure.
Also, your wealth by level should be about 240 000 - yours is up in 373 000, and you said you have more items apart from this. And I don't even count the +2 wis you got from some other source I don't know about.
That may be, but then it's a flaw in the adventure path and not the monk being overpowered. Has the other characters gotten an equal share of the loot, money-wise?
Because there are two main situations i can see:
1. The adventure path is filled with tons and tons of treasure that don't follow the WBL guidelines. Apparently also, monks become too good defensively when they are given 50% higher wealth than normal.
2. You've gotten a larger than normal share of the loot, which explains why your monk is so dominating compared to the others.
I'm not saying this in any demeaning way or so, it's just that if you've gotten more than the average of the party, that's a reason why you would shine so much. It's easy to think that "the monk's gonna be in the front, so give him the bracers of AC instead of the wizard", but that can backfire in this way (as well as causing the wizard to be very frail).
Maze (SR), Wall of Force (abundant step), reverse gravity (slow fall, abundant step)Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Actually a 15th level wizard can counter your monk.
Maze. autohit no save. Puts the monk out of action for a significant period of time.
1. Orject image- another excellent idea :)
2. Maze... forgot about that one!!Other spells which are good if not totally infallible counters.
Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity
You can't assume the wizard will roll low on his check to beat your SR. You can, but it's better to assume he will at least roll a 10 which does meet or beat your SR.
The monk is not taking the wizard, not played by a competent DM that does not want to be taken anyway.
See you're trying to make me suck, sure one on one against a Tarn Linnorm (CR ??) all I can do is run. And yes I can run (hello, abundant step?), but with the rest of my party, I'm guessing the linnorm is dead in 4 rounds tops.
Of course it will if you've got a level 15 party with a 25pt buy and the wealth of a 16,5 level party.
The question is, can you make this "broken" monk within the core rules? If not, then the problem isn't the monk or the core rules, the problem is in house rules and the adventure path.
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All the treasure we got was straight from the books including the +3 book (free), I could replace the ki straps with brass knuckles from the APG for the exact same effect, and take up NO slot. I think the list of magic items is actually pretty complete, I don't have my character sheet handy though so I can't be 100% sure.
Also, your wealth by level should be about 240 000 - yours is up in 373 000, and you said you have more items apart from this. And I don't even count the +2 wis you got from some other source I don't know about.That may be, but then it's a flaw in the adventure path and not the monk being overpowered. Has the other characters gotten an equal share of the loot, money-wise?
Because there are two main situations i can see:
1. The adventure path is filled with tons and tons of treasure that don't follow the WBL guidelines. Apparently also, monks become too good defensively when they are given 50% higher wealth than normal.
2. You've gotten a larger than normal share of the loot, which explains why your monk is so dominating compared to the others.I'm not saying this in any demeaning way or so, it's just that if you've gotten more than the average of the party, that's a reason why you would shine so much. It's easy to think that "the monk's gonna be in the front, so give him the bracers of AC instead of the wizard", but that can backfire in this way (as well as causing the wizard to be very frail).
Nope all treasure was split evenly. Most of it came right at the end.
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Maze (SR), Wall of Force (abundant step), reverse gravity (slow fall, abundant step)Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Actually a 15th level wizard can counter your monk.
Maze. autohit no save. Puts the monk out of action for a significant period of time.
1. Orject image- another excellent idea :)
2. Maze... forgot about that one!!Other spells which are good if not totally infallible counters.
Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity
You can't assume the wizard will roll low on his check to beat your SR. You can, but it's better to assume he will at least roll a 10 which does meet or beat your SR.
The monk is not taking the wizard, not played by a competent DM that does not want to be taken anyway.
Not counting on it just mentioning it, also I should mention the +8 bonus I'm gonna get on the DC 20 Int check to escape by spending a Hero Point, so I'll be out in 2-3 rounds tops.
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See you're trying to make me suck, sure one on one against a Tarn Linnorm (CR ??) all I can do is run. And yes I can run (hello, abundant step?), but with the rest of my party, I'm guessing the linnorm is dead in 4 rounds tops.Of course it will if you've got a level 15 party with a 25pt buy and the wealth of a 16,5 level party.
The question is, can you make this "broken" monk within the core rules? If not, then the problem isn't the monk or the core rules, the problem is in house rules and the adventure path.
Again he's made with only core rules with only the treasure he got from the Adventure Path. I don't know how much more CORE he could be.
See you're trying to make me suck, sure one on one against a Tarn Linnorm (CR ??) all I can do is run. And yes I can run (hello, abundant step?), but with the rest of my party, I'm guessing the linnorm is dead in 4 rounds tops.Why are you assuming you can just run? I thought linnorms could fly which is normally faster than a monk can run. The other point is that if all the monk can contribute is running away it just shows how useless it is.Ok, so the monster just killed the rest of my party, he still can't hit me 75% of the time, and I can still just run away. The point was up until the very end of the adventure path all our characters were fairly balanced, then my AC went 12-15 points higher than the rest of the party, now monsters that can hit me reliably (ATK +37 or so) hit everyone else in the party EVERY SINGLE TIME. (well except 1's)First off, high AC is one of the few things a monk is actually good at. Many enemies can safely ignore the monk, or use combat maneouvers against him (I know that he's got good CMD, but a Tarn Linnorm has quite good CMB too), because he isn't that good of a damage dealer.
A monk can have good survivability, but he isn't that good on the offensive side, so many smart opponents (which most opponents at that level are) will just kill the other party members first and then get to him when he's alone.
I am not trying to make you suck. I am pointing out that for all of your individual prowess you are not doing much to help the party. I am also trying to point out that if you attack something as ill-tempered as a Linnorm he would not just let you waltz off. On top of that you are a high level adventurer(I know monsters dont know about levels, but it should have had some hard things to bypass before you met it) which generally makes you dangerous. If it does not make a real effort to hunt you down then it's intelligence is being downplayed.
I had a high AC/high save monk in a game I ran, similar to yours. I realized he was not really doing anything to help the party so I just ignored him for a good majority of the fights. He thought I had given up trying to attack him and took it as a victory. To this day I dont think he ever figured out the truth.edit: When I say you are not doing much to help the party I am saying your defense does not help the party. It only helps you. That is what I mean by the monk being useless.
Not counting on it just mentioning it, also I should mention the +8 bonus I'm gonna get on the DC 20 Int check to escape by spending a Hero Point, so I'll be out in 2-3 rounds tops.Maze (SR), Wall of Force (abundant step), reverse gravity (slow fall, abundant step)Hmm, 16th level? So an 18-19th level wizard would be a good counter.
"I really WISH this guy were in Hell!!!"
Actually a 15th level wizard can counter your monk.
Maze. autohit no save. Puts the monk out of action for a significant period of time.
1. Orject image- another excellent idea :)
2. Maze... forgot about that one!!Other spells which are good if not totally infallible counters.
Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity
You can't assume the wizard will roll low on his check to beat your SR. You can, but it's better to assume he will at least roll a 10 which does meet or beat your SR.
The monk is not taking the wizard, not played by a competent DM that does not want to be taken anyway.
Why cant he just maze you again?
edit: A lot can happen in 3 rounds
Also a 25 point buy is quite powerful. I gave my party a 17 point buy and they are doing well in all modules so far.
Worth repeating, Second Darkness is balanced on a 3.X 20pt buy or a Pathfinder 15pt buy.
Again he's made with only core rules with only the treasure he got from the Adventure Path. I don't know how much more CORE he could be.See you're trying to make me suck, sure one on one against a Tarn Linnorm (CR ??) all I can do is run. And yes I can run (hello, abundant step?), but with the rest of my party, I'm guessing the linnorm is dead in 4 rounds tops.Of course it will if you've got a level 15 party with a 25pt buy and the wealth of a 16,5 level party.
The question is, can you make this "broken" monk within the core rules? If not, then the problem isn't the monk or the core rules, the problem is in house rules and the adventure path.
I agree with you here. The monk can have a high AC using core rules only.
Okay, so now that we have more information, what we can clearly see is that in a non-standard game with non-standard WBL and non-standard point buy and non-standard house rules such as hero points, a monk can be dominating against standard enemies.
If I take a CR15 opponent, adjust it for a 25 point buy, and give it 150 000 gp of extra gear, I could probably come up with something that could very easily eat you in a few turns. You may choose what Bestiary monster it should be based on, and I'll make the arrangements to see what can be done.
Note that monsters are built on a 3 point buy. An ancient white dragon on a 25 pt buy with an amulet of mighty fists +4 and a belt of physical perfection +4 would prove an interesting enemy. Especially since it's flying.
EDIT:
I'm not saying that a monk can't have good AC - I'm just saying that with the core rules (which the AP doesn't really follow, seeing it's treatment of the WBL guidelines and seeing how it's made for 3.5 and not PFRPG) you'd get nowhere near 47 AC while at the same time being able to have a decent offensive output.
In short: I am not picking on you. I am just saying the monk is not the issue.
edit:27 minutes later. The poster above has the gist of it.
Ask youeself: How would I perform in encounters we face (you can ask the question to combat / non-combat situations)?
1. The other PCs hinder me, since it takes sometimes takes actions me to save their asses. I kill/capture all the enemies by myself. (You are broken)
2. I would be able to go through most of the stuff alone, but so would some others (or pairs) after a thought (DM has been running easy encounters)
3. I need other PCs help to go through the difficulties (I see no problem with your monk)
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Monks: not "broken" in any sense of the word. As has been pointed out, you are using a 25 point buy, which is called "epic" for a reason, you have 50% greater WBL which is going to further compound things, as has also been pointed out. Not sure what the average AC is for creatures you would be fighting around that level, but even with your build your looking at approximatively +15 to hit on a single attack, +17 if flurrying, id imagine ACs of 30+ would not be uncommon, meaning you need 13+ to hit yourself. So you've made a character thats good at surviving, but you might not be hitting all the time. Your fighters will have almost as close of FF/normal ac and be hitting much more reliably and for more average damage per hit. You've built a monk thats good at staying alive, but you have not "broken" the game.
As has been shown, removing gear to put you in line with WBL drops your ac down. The argument "well thats what the adventure gave out" holds no merit here, as the WBL is the guideline to how much value your equipment SHOULD be at. So the issue of it being built in to the adventure is irrelevant, I have to wonder with so much built in wealth, has your DM been letting you do magic item shopping on top of that?
Also want to throw out that the monk is my favorite class, so Im no monk hater. If anything they need help to be a complete class.
Small pet-peeve: Misuse of this word "broken" again. Internet hyperbole.
Again he's made with only core rules with only the treasure he got from the Adventure Path. I don't know how much more CORE he could be.See you're trying to make me suck, sure one on one against a Tarn Linnorm (CR ??) all I can do is run. And yes I can run (hello, abundant step?), but with the rest of my party, I'm guessing the linnorm is dead in 4 rounds tops.Of course it will if you've got a level 15 party with a 25pt buy and the wealth of a 16,5 level party.
The question is, can you make this "broken" monk within the core rules? If not, then the problem isn't the monk or the core rules, the problem is in house rules and the adventure path.
Your Straps of Ki are not Core -- and the fact that you can have effectively an Amulet of Mighty Fists and an Amulet of Natural Armor at the same time IS in fact an unbalanced thing that has nothing to do with core. You have a feat from the 3.5 campaign book which is not Core.
You have more WBL than is suggested by core. AND you have a character built with a high point buy (remember 20 is recommended for Society play) AND your GM allowed you to have stat boosting items on top of that.
But that's not what you want to hear, is it?
I should have stopped reading this thread when you started accusing someone of "trying to make you suck" when making a reasonable suggestion for what would be a reasonable challenge for your character and your character's party. Do you really, really think that's what that poster was trying to do? Really?
Fine. Your character is broken. It is the brokenyest broken broken class and character combination ever, more broken then waterford crystal that's been jumped up and down on by a storm giant. It is so very, very broken, I can't even begin to tell you how broken it is. It's not the generous build, it's not the too-low challenges thrown at you, it's not the generous wealth, it's not the advantageous magic items the campaign gave you and the custom item you have, it's just that your character is broken. That's all. It clearly cannot ever be anything ever other than the fact than it is broken. You win the thread. Congratulations.
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Okay, so now that we have more information, what we can clearly see is that in a non-standard game with non-standard WBL and non-standard point buy and non-standard house rules such as hero points, a monk can be dominating against standard enemies.
/Nod
I think someone who is much better at character building at me should build another class with the guidelines he has, to show what can be done with the variables hes been given.
Again, please dont take this as an attack. I LOVE playing monks, despite not being the strongest offensively. They are great at staying alive, and can add some fun things to a party. All thats being done in this thread is try to show you how you are misusing the term broken, essentially.
Well, as he said he could have just as easily had Brass Knuckles from the APG. They do about the same thing in this case (though they don't help his CMB and so on)Again he's made with only core rules with only the treasure he got from the Adventure Path. I don't know how much more CORE he could be.Your Straps of Ki are not Core -- and the fact that you can have effectively an Amulet of Mighty Fists and an Amulet of Natural Armor at the same time IS in fact an unbalanced thing that has nothing to do with core. You have a feat from the 3.5 campaign book which is not Core.
Extreme ACs generally require extravagant expenditure of resources or higher wealth than normal. Further they likely depend on non-standard items (custom items offering insight or holy bonuses)in order to get into the stratosphere. Even if they manage to get high it's only one defense (albeit the most common), characters are generally still vulnerable to a variety of touch attacks and/or spells and spell like abilities.
The default monk is a highly mobile skirmisher with good defenses (AC and Saves) but sacrifices hitting ability for speed and survival capabilities. It's not a bad character if built correctly but it does have some glaring weaknesses to offset it's strengths.
One should also note that it's quite natural for monks to gain much by higher point buys - due to their MADness combined with diminishing returns for point buy. A SAD class has much less to gain since a high point buy will only affect their second and third most important stats, which aren't that important, while for a MAD these are important stats.
The same goes for high wealth, since you can have +4 all attributes but only +6 to a single with items.
Abundant step can be countered relatively easily though: dimensional anchor as early as around 7th level, dimension lock as early as perhaps 11th or 12th character level just to name the two "quick and dirty" methods of doing so.
It also slurps two ki points from your precious pool. Since you have a total Wisdom bonus of +10, that means you have a pool of 17 points at 15th level. Presumably your monk would not use more than 14 points before going into "emergency mode" (1 point to keep the "1+ point in ki pool" goodies up and running, 2 points for an emergency abundant step) for the rest of the day.
I rather doubt your monk has any ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana), so if he is having to deal with an effect or spell that hoses his abundant step ... he is likely SoL.
Your "weak spot" is the same as it is for every other character and almost every creature - touch AC. Bracers do help thwart the incorporeal touch attacks of quite a few undead and spectral hand spells, but they do nothing to stop a polar ray or anything equivalent. Granted, your touch AC is *much* higher - in the 30's, as high as a 40 when you are 'turtling' - but most of that at this level (against certain spell casters) is still hittable.
Your monk hardly sucks though - CMB should be VERY impressive, especially as you are built for grappling. When you flurry you should be connecting reliably enough - base +13 and all the bonuses, plus "buffs" from the rest of the group (haste, greater heroism/heroism/bless, prayer and the like) should put you up to where your best two attacks hit even your toughest fellow PC close to or more than half of the time. Your buddies drop targeted dispels on bad guy #1 after the permanent arcane sight shows the proper auras (to get rid of freedom of movement) - you grapple bad guy #1 - fighter and/or rogue repeatedly stab bad guy #1 - if necessary, you throttle bad guy #1 on subsequent rounds as he/she/it cannot escape your monstrous DC - bad guy #1 dies - rinse, lather, repeat.
Short version - I disagree that the class in and of itself is "broken".
Also, I would not be surprised if the GM adjusted various bad guys according to your characters capabilities. In Pathfinder rules, you should expect to start seeing baddies that "by the book" are as high as a CR of 20 or 21. Why ? Because you can handle them as a group - the entire group presumably had the same point buy, has each gotten a +5 book for their "primary" ability score and has (roughly) the same market value of gear. And we've not even heard about how large the group is. It sounds like 5 or 6, solidly cementing your group at "3 over level" for APL - meaning by "the book guidelines" dictate you can and will see encounters as tough as 6 over the characters' level.
The above-mentioned tarn linnorm would be considered a "tough challenge" for your group. Based on the numbers that have been dropping, not even a tarn linnorm can expect to successfully HIT your monk. The breath weapons and combat maneuvers might comprise a threat. It can probably ignore your stunning fist and it can certainly ignore your grappling.
The ever-popular balor would have to soften you up a bit before it can hit you - and barring an unlikely greater spell immunity, the first thing that happens is a blasphemy against which you and the entire party are paralyzed for 1 round, followed by a likely decapitation.
This does not account for specific environmental features. If a pool of lava is fairly close by, a quickened telekinesis results in death by immersion in lava at ~70 points per round plus having to deal with drowning, let alone what can happen to your comrades at arms ...
A pit fiend would not be much different - blasphemy softens the group up, dismemberment of the squishy-looking ones immediately follow. Repeat blasphemies as necessary every other round until the human(oid)s are dispatched or have managed to flee.
All in all, your group should be bracing themselves to start seeing the Big Guns of the game...
This thread makes me giggle. Someone post Frank's "Why Monks?" article for me, I'm away from my laptop.
Does Frank still post? In any case I will look for the article.
I am back
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I had a similar character under 3.5 (Dwarven Defender, but with an AC in the 50s around 15th-18th level). It wasn't broken, since yes, I did sacrifice a lot of offense for the high AC.
What eventually got him was a sphere of annihilation (which we knew about, and I took out as I died with the rod of cancellation I carried at least). Not many options there when it comes up through the floor under you.
Another weakness for this type of character is anti-magic field of course. A wizard casting this with his tank fighter inside to pound the monk down would be pretty one sided.
Also, supernatural abilities ignore SR, so any that your GM can use without saves would work just fine on the monk.
This thread makes me giggle. Someone post Frank's "Why Monks?" article for me, I'm away from my laptop.Does Frank still post? In any case I will look for the article.
I am back
I think he was one of few people who actually managed to be banned from these messageboards.
Interesting thread though.
D&D always has and probably always will have the tendency to break down at very high levels unless the GM is wary.
This is the reason why adventure paths end at Level 15-16.
So, no, Monks are not broken, everyone else can do it as well with the right items and some GM love. The difference is that a Wizard with an AC of 40+ can actually melt faces, while a monk can't.
Well, monks are broken, not broken overpowered but broken underpowered...
Well, monks are broken, not broken overpowered but broken underpowered...
It seems a common theme that folks playing monks in the Second Darkness AP seem to have no problem keeping up, if not outshining other members of the party. I would feel sorry for a monk in the Runelords campaign I'm GMing, but monks seem to do fine in many circumstances.
I think Monks will always look bad on paper because there is no Saving Throw Olympics, or GP value for being able to run up and grab someone. Sure they can't tank it out with some big thug monster, but saying they suck because they are not a fighter misses the point.
Edit: Malaclypse - Zing! That is funny!
Sure they can't tank it out with some big thug monster, but saying they suck because they are not a fighter misses the point.
Indeed. Monks suck because they are not a caster ;)
I can't give a full rundown on all my items, but here's the highlights.
Monk's robe, +8 bracers of AC, +3 prot. ring, +4 ki straps (amulet of mighty fists different slot), +4 belt (Str/Dex/Con), +6 Wis headband, +5 amulet of natural armor, ring of sustenance.
As a GM running Second Darkness, I'm crying foul on this list. Your GM may have given you all these items, but they're not among the listed treasure in the AP, so you can't blame the module.
Your GM may have given you all these items, but they're not among the listed treasure in the AP, so you can't blame the module.
As a DM who has finished running this AP, I can tell you that the list of items there is well within the treasure received by the end of the campaign. I'm sure he had to purchase a good deal of it of course, not sure there's more than one Monk in the entire adventure. Definitely some good bracers, plenty of protection rings, not many mighty fists, +4 belt/dex/con is right out of there I believe (if you combine the 3.5 items), as would be a +6 Wis item and the amulet of natural armor.
Your GM may have given you all these items, but they're not among the listed treasure in the AP, so you can't blame the module.
As a DM who has finished running this AP, I can tell you that the list of items there is well within the treasure received by the end of the campaign. I'm sure he had to purchase a good deal of it of course, not sure there's more than one Monk in the entire adventure. Definitely some good bracers, plenty of protection rings, not many mighty fists, +4 belt/dex/con is right out of there I believe (if you combine the 3.5 items), as would be a +6 Wis item and the amulet of natural armor.
Your GM may have given you all these items, but they're not among the listed treasure in the AP, so you can't blame the module.As a DM who has finished running this AP, I can tell you that the list of items there is well within the treasure received by the end of the campaign. I'm sure he had to purchase a good deal of it of course, not sure there's more than one Monk in the entire adventure. Definitely some good bracers, plenty of protection rings, not many mighty fists, +4 belt/dex/con is right out of there I believe (if you combine the 3.5 items), as would be a +6 Wis item and the amulet of natural armor.
The best bracers of armor I see are +4, the best amulet of natural armor is +2, and the best headband is intellect +4. Anything he purchased is owing to the GM ruling it's available (unless there's a Crafter in the party modifying these items).
I only point out that these items aren't in the listed treasure because his argument is that it's the AP's fault he has them.
Again he's made with only core rules with only the treasure he got from the Adventure Path. I don't know how much more CORE he could be.
[emphasis added]
Treasure includes gold. It even includes "Item of player's choice" at two different points.
Also "periapt of wisdom +6," -> Headband of Wisdom +6 in Pathfinder.
The other idea is just to make up for it in volume. A 10 headed hydra has at least a %50 chance to hit with a full attack no matter what your AC.
Incorrect. Even with 10 attacks, if you need a natural 20 you still miss with all of them 60% of the time.
Besides, very few creatures get 10 attacks.
Well, monks are broken, not broken overpowered but broken underpowered...Not really, not anymore.
They're better TWFers than anyone... To be more precise, to match them, you need full BAB, all of TWF chain and Double Slice. In addition, they get a bunch of abilities which are less random nowadays - the fatigue effect from stunning fist is in fact, rather nice, and they get some extra attacks at full bonus, by sacrificing Ki points.They are still kinda MAD, but they don't really need _that_ much dex or wis, especially if they patch up their AC with feats. Since they don't use an off-hand, they get full +2 on each strike with Power Attack - I believe this may be an unique ability for the class, in fact.
Still, a melee class without full BAB...it boggles the mind. And having to pay for the privilege of what they should have had from the start with Ki point only makes the situation worse.
Of course the DM can just fix this by handing out way to many overpowered magic items. But still...
=/
Treasure includes gold. It even includes "Item of player's choice" at two different points.
Also "periapt of wisdom +6," -> Headband of Wisdom +6 in Pathfinder.
Mea culpa. How quickly I forget the 3.5 lingo; I was just doing a search for "headband."
Assuming the items of player's choice are in
Like I said, though, if there's a Crafter in the party and the GM provided enough down time, it's possible.
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@malacalypse:
Whuh? They have full BAB where it counts - their attacks (although they're forced to TWF full attack, sorta) and combat maneuvers.
Yes, an awful lot of hoops were jumped through to give Monks 'Full BAB but not really' when it would have been much easier to just give them Full BAB instead of writing a bunch of words to give them a virtual Full BAB.
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Treasure includes gold. It even includes "Item of player's choice" at two different points.
Also "periapt of wisdom +6," -> Headband of Wisdom +6 in Pathfinder.
Mea culpa. How quickly I forget the 3.5 lingo; I was just doing a search for "headband."
Assuming the items of player's choice are in ** spoiler omitted **, there are gp limits on those that preclude items like Bracers of Armor +8.
Like I said, though, if there's a Crafter in the party and the GM provided enough down time, it's possible.
They tell you in a couple of different places that the elves will turn your treasure into whatever you want because you are really helping them out.
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Again he's made with only core rules with only the treasure he got from the Adventure Path. I don't know how much more CORE he could be.See you're trying to make me suck, sure one on one against a Tarn Linnorm (CR ??) all I can do is run. And yes I can run (hello, abundant step?), but with the rest of my party, I'm guessing the linnorm is dead in 4 rounds tops.Of course it will if you've got a level 15 party with a 25pt buy and the wealth of a 16,5 level party.
The question is, can you make this "broken" monk within the core rules? If not, then the problem isn't the monk or the core rules, the problem is in house rules and the adventure path.
Your Straps of Ki are not Core -- and the fact that you can have effectively an Amulet of Mighty Fists and an Amulet of Natural Armor at the same time IS in fact an unbalanced thing that has nothing to do with core. You have a feat from the 3.5 campaign book which is not Core.
You have more WBL than is suggested by core. AND you have a character built with a high point buy (remember 20 is recommended for Society play) AND your GM allowed you to have stat boosting items on top of that.
But that's not what you want to hear, is it?
I should have stopped reading this thread when you started accusing someone of "trying to make you suck" when making a reasonable suggestion for what would be a reasonable challenge for your character and your character's party. Do you really, really think that's what that poster was trying to do? Really?
Fine. Your character is broken. It is the brokenyest broken broken class and character combination ever, more broken then waterford crystal that's been jumped up and down on by a storm giant. It is so very, very broken, I can't even begin to tell you how broken it is. It's not the generous build, it's not the too-low challenges thrown at you, it's not the generous wealth, it's not the advantageous magic items the campaign gave you...
So how is that helping? I had more to say but I just can't muster the will to degrade you...go back to 7th grade.
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Okay, so now that we have more information, what we can clearly see is that in a non-standard game with non-standard WBL and non-standard point buy and non-standard house rules such as hero points, a monk can be dominating against standard enemies./Nod
I think someone who is much better at character building at me should build another class with the guidelines he has, to show what can be done with the variables hes been given.
Again, please dont take this as an attack. I LOVE playing monks, despite not being the strongest offensively. They are great at staying alive, and can add some fun things to a party. All thats being done in this thread is try to show you how you are misusing the term broken, essentially.
I will give it a shot although I claim to be no expert character builder.
Neither build is truly optimized for either attack or defense.
Male Human Monk 15
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +10; Perception +17
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DEFENSE
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AC 36, touch 28, flat-footed 31 (+8 armor, +4 Dex, +4 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 168 (15d8+75)
Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 25
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OFFENSE
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Spd 80 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +18/+13/+8 (2d6+7)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic, Quivering Palm (DC 21)
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STATISTICS
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Str 15/19, Dex 14/18, Con 14/18, Int 10, Wis 14/18, Cha 10
Base Atk +11/+6/+1; CMB +19 (+23 Grappling+21 Tripping); CMD 43 (45 vs. Grapple45 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Grapple, Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Ki Throw, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Throw, Lunge, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack +6/-3, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist (16/day) (DC 22), Toughness +15
Traits Reactionary, World Traveler: Diplomacy
Skills Acrobatics +17, Climb +12, Diplomacy +14, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +13, Knowledge: History +8, Knowledge: Religion +8, Perception +17, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +12, Swim +12
Languages
SQ Abundant Step (Su), AC Bonus +9, Fast Movement (+50'), High Jump (+15) (Ex), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Maneuver Training (Ex), Purity of Body (Ex), Slow Fall 70' (Ex), Still Mind (Ex), Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Stagger, Blind, Deafen) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Wholeness of Body (30 HP/use) (Su)
Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, Belt of Physical Perfection, +4, Bracers of Armor, +8, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Ring of Protection, +4, Robe, Monk's
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +9 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) You may make up to 5 attacks of apportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+50') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Greater Grapple +2 to grapple, maintaining a grapple is a move action.
High Jump (+15) (Ex) +15 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Ki Throw Trips can put the target in any square you threaten, even occupied ones (pushing back and knocking prone those already there).
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your WIS modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) At 10th level, a monk's unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) At 4th level, ki strike allows a monk's unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Ki Throw Trips can put the target in any square you threaten.
Lunge -2 to hit for +5' reach
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Power Attack +6/-3 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Quivering Palm (1/week) (DC 21) (Su) Once a week, make an attack that can kill with your thought.
Slow Fall 70' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Spell Resistance (25) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (16/day) (DC 22) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Stagger, Blind, Deafen) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (30 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal 2 * monk level in damage for 1 Ki point.
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Male Human Fighter 15
TN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9; Perception +0
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DEFENSE
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AC 40, touch 18, flat-footed 36 (+12 armor, +7 shield, +3 Dex, +3 natural, +4 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 214 (15d10+105)
Fort +19, Ref +12, Will +9
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee +5 Defending, Keen, Shocking Burst Longsword +27/+22/+17 (1d8+18) and
Gauntlet (from Armor) +21/+16/+11 (1d3+6) and
Shield, Heavy Steel +18 (1d8+4) and
Unarmed Strike +21/+16/+11 (1d3+6)
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STATISTICS
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Str 16/22, Dex 16, Con 16/22, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +15/+10/+5; CMB +21; CMD 43
Feats Cleave, Combat Expertise +/-4, Dodge, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus: Longsword, Greater Weapon Specialization: Longsword, Improved Critical: Longsword, Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack +8/-4, Shield Focus, Shield Specialization: Heavy Shield, Toughness +15, Two-weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Weapon Specialization: Longsword
Traits Bully, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +18, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Handle Animal +13, Intimidate +14, Ride +15, Stealth +2, Survival +13, Swim +18
Languages
SQ Armor Training 4 (Ex), Bravery +4 (Ex), Ring of Sustenance, Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +3 (Ex), Weapon Training: Blades, Light +2 (Ex), Weapon Training: Bows +1 (Ex)
Combat Gear +3 Mithral Full Plate, +3 Bashing Shield, Heavy Steel, +5 Defending, Keen, Shocking Burst Longsword; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Belt of Physical Might, STR & CON +6, Boots of Striding and Springing, Cloak of Resistance, +4, Ring of Protection, +4, Ring of Sustenance
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Armor Training 4 (Ex) Worn armor -4 check penalty, +4 max DEX.
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 Will save vs. Fear
Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Power Attack +8/-4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of Sustenance This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Faint conjuration; CL 5th; Forge Ring, create food and water; Price 2,500 gp.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Specialization: Heavy Shield You have mastered the use of one type of shield.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected shield, Shield Focus, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: Choose one type of shield (buckler, light, heavy, or tower shield). With the selected shie
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training: Blades, Light +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training: Bows +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
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