I am a fan of Bards with songbooks.
If there must be bardic music, it should be at least a little bit like real musicianship.
That said, adding spellbooks are pretty far down on my "bard-fix" list.
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Bards get their magic from their performance. That is why they can't get summon spell. Still magic is from their art which to me is believable. To get at what I mean I once made a sorcerer whose magic was all color sprays and fog clouds (which I designated were purple) and hypnotic patterns i.e pretty colors and had craft: Painting and a couple spell books as sketch pads.
That would be a perfectly fine 'bloodline' without a drop of blood involved. Bardic music works the same way; artist talent as magic. Sounds like a good idea.
Summoner I have no idea about but that's because the class hasn't appealed to me and I haven't examined it in detail. But ties to the natural world seems very primal and shamanistic, which, when you think about is using a formula to create specific results, though not from a book.
All the Best,
Kerney
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I am a fan of Bards with songbooks.
If there must be bardic music, it should be at least a little bit like real musicianship.
That said, adding spellbooks are pretty far down on my "bard-fix" list.
Since 3rd edition was announced, and the spontaneous Sorcerer was chatted up in the pages of Dragon, I had hoped that *all* spellcasting classes would get spontaneous and prepared options right at the start, as a class choice at 1st level.
Some bards might be dragon-blooded sorcerer-types, with some special unique bloodline or heritage that allows them to tap into spontaneous spellcasting, but others might be educated dabblers, collecting notes and sheafs of documents of arcane lore that they would use to prepare their spells in the morning, a sort of arcane dilettante, to go with how they are a dilettante in the arts of combat and the arts of the rogue. The prepared bard would have a 'spellbook,' would prepare spells, and would cast less spells per day, but have potentially access to every spell on the bard spell list, acquiring them like a Wizard, either 2/level, or through purchase, etc.
I'd be all for that sort of Bard. An actual dabbler in matters arcane, collecting notes and texts, not just some special bloodline-enhanced half-critter, as sorcerers were defined to be.
I wanted this to apply to every spellcaster, including Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers. Some would have a small fixed list of Spells Known, and be able to cast them spontaneously and flexibly. Others would keep a prayer book or ogham record or whatever of specific rites and rotes and incantations, and prepare them in the morning.
*Nobody* would have access to every single spell on their spell list for free, learning potentially dozens of spells automagically just for reaching 3rd level, as even Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers would have to choose to be prepared 'book-casters' like Wizards, and aquire their spells through those means, or spontaneous 'innate-casters' like Sorcerers, and have a small fixed list of Spells Known, but more castings per day and the ability to cast spells flexibly.
And they never did it. The Sorcerer became some sort of outlier, with the vast majority of casters being prepared / Vancian, and yet only the Wizard being saddled with the requirement to maintain a spellbook and acquire their spells, as every other prepared caster just got every single spell on their list automatically, which grew even more annoying with every new Cleric or Druid spell released in a new product...
For a house rule, I think -1 spell per level per day would be fine, and like this reversed. I'd give him as many cantrips per day as he currently knows - this is a bit of a power gain, but no big deal and the bard isn't excactly overpowered now.
So at level 1, he'd have 4 cantrips and 0 1st level spells per day (so only the bonus spell). At level 10, he'd have 6 cantrips, four 1st, three 2nd, two 3rd, 0 4th.
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I came to this thread ready to raise hell and yell about not screwing with the system, but it makes perfect sense. +1 for everyone! I really like this idea! But seeing as I am terrible with numbers, I'm going to have to wait till one of you makes this particular modification.
The Sorcerer has 2 more castings per day of each spell when they gain them. However, they gain spells (except at 1st level) one level later than when a Wizard would gain those spells.
Adapting a Bard to prepared / spellbook casting using exactly this version, with no thought other than a direct conversion, you'd take the Bard list, and subtract two castings / day from each row, but allow the prepared Bard access to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level spells one level sooner;
1st - 0 1st
2nd - 0 1st
3rd - 1 1st, 0 2nd
4th - 1 1st, 0 2nd
5th - 2 1st, 1 2nd
6th - 2 1st, 1 2nd, 0 3rd
7th - 2 1st, 2 2nd, 0 3rd
8th - 2 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd
9th - 3 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd, 0 4th
10th - 3 1st, 2 2nd, 2 3rd, 0 4th
11th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd, 1 4th
12th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd, 1 4th, 0 5th
13th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd, 2 4th, 0 5th
14th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, 1 5th
15th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, 1 5th, 0 6th
16th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, 2 5th, 0 6th
17th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th
18th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 3 5th, 2 6th
19th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 3 5th, 3 6th
20th - 3 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 3 5th, 3 6th
At any level where the bard can prepare zero spells, he can only prepare spells of that level if he has bonus spells for a high Charisma (or, in this case, perhaps Intelligence).
He starts with a spellbook like a Wizard, containing all 0-level Bard spells, plus 3 1st level Bard spells of his choice. He also selects a number of additional 1st level Bard spells equal to his Intelligence modifier. At each new Bard level, he gains two new Bard spells of any spell level that he cast, based on his new Bard level for his spellbook. At any time, he can also add other spells from the Bard list that in finds in other Bard or Wizards spellbooks to his own using the same procedures as for a Wizard.
Note that this option, while allowing for potentially all Bard spells to eventually be in one's hymnal / songbook, adds some MAD (multiple attribute dependency) to the class, as his bonus spells will be based off of Intelligence, and, for his highest level spells, he will often have nothing *but* bonus spells. In keeping with that theme, he'll eventually want at least a 15 Intelligence, so that he can learn 5th level spells.
It's up to the individual GM whether this sort of Arcane Dilettante bard would use Intelligence to determine the save DC of his spells, as well. Perhaps he does. Perhaps he still uses Charisma for the DC. I could be persuaded to go either way, on that one.
Stringburka's idea of -1 / day also works, and if I used that, I'd be inclined to make it Int-based all the way. My own direct conversion is a bit weaker than the traditional Bard, IMO, although it has more flexibility over time (being able to prepare spells for specific situations, and take spells that no Bard in their right mind would ever take as one of the five 6th level spells ever they know.
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Weird... I have been thinking about this same topic for about a week. With the exception of the sorcerer and the witch, I was going to make all arcane casters spellbook casters. I should mention the PCs in the game I run have about 10% of the normal magical items for their level and that I was also considering allowing the wizard to cast ANY spell in his spellbook spontaneously, so long as he studied his spellbook that day.
I'd probably let each caster keep their current primary casting ability to reflect variances in each form of magic (wizardry, bardic, summoning, alchemy). Learning spells between disciplines would require an additional expenditure of time/money in order to 'translate' the spell.
Note that this option, while allowing for potentially all Bard spells to eventually be in one's hymnal / songbook, adds some MAD (multiple attribute dependency) to the class, as his bonus spells will be based off of Intelligence, and, for his highest level spells, he will often have nothing *but* bonus spells. In keeping with that theme, he'll eventually want at least a 15 Intelligence, so that he can learn 5th level spells.
This is why I thought it would be better to give him the progression of inversed spontaneous divine from UA. In it, it gives divine casters a set of spells known per day, and +1 spell per spell level per day. Divine casters are more MAD, which the bard will also be. Also, the sorcerer/wizard spell list is better than the bard one, so it seems fair that the wizard has to pay a higher price to get access to all sor/wiz spells than it would for an int-bard compared to a cha-bard. Due to this, I find it fair to simply make for UA's conversion, backwards, with a good amount of cantrips. The table would look like this:
1st - 4 c, 0 1st
2nd - 5 c, 1 1st
3rd - 6 c, 2 1st
4th - 6 c, 2 1st, 0 2nd
5th - 6 c, 3 1st, 1 2nd
6th - 6 c, 3 1st, 2 2nd,
7th - 6 c, 3 1st, 2 2nd, 0 3rd,
8th - 6 c, 3 1st, 3 2nd, 1 3rd,
9th - 6 c, 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd,
10th - 6 c, 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd, 0 4th
11th - 6 c, 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 1 4th
12th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th
13th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, 0 5th
14th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 3 4th, 1 5th
15th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 3 4th, 2 5th
16th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 3 4th, 2 5th, 0 6th
17th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 3 4th, 3 5th, 1 6th
18th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 4 4th, 3 5th, 2 6th
19th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 4 4th, 4 5th, 3 6th
20th - 6 c, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 4 4th, 4 5th, 4 6th
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Intelligence was already not a total dump stat for bards who wanted something out of his knowledges, but I think a memorizing bard will be more casterish and skillful and even less combat-focused than he is now. He will be a total skill monster though.
My houserule, took keep divine casters from going berserk with every splat book ever, is to limit the spell list to the ones in the main book, and every level allow the player of the cleric to pick one (1) spell from other books which match her god's domains and have these spells as special prayers her god allows her.
Wizards likewise get to pick one non-core spell a level as part of their personal research.
As for bards needing to maintain songbooks, as I see it, bards memorize their song. They don't just pop out of their heads Vancian style when cast.
Summoners? I'd have to see the class in play to feel strongly one way or the other.
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As for bards needing to maintain songbooks, as I see it, bards memorize their song. They don't just pop out of their heads Vancian style when cast.
I liked the idea of both options. Some bards were spontaneous, some were prepared. Ditto for Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, etc.
I like the versatility.
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Since 3rd edition was announced, and the spontaneous Sorcerer was chatted up in the pages of Dragon, I had hoped that *all* spellcasting classes would get spontaneous and prepared options right at the start, as a class choice at 1st level.And they never did it. The Sorcerer became some sort of outlier, with the vast majority of casters being prepared / Vancian, and yet only the Wizard being saddled with the requirement to maintain a spellbook and acquire their spells, as every other prepared caster just got every single spell on their list automatically, which grew even more annoying with every new Cleric or Druid spell released in a new product...
I think the problem wasn't the class but the fluff and the execution of the class Wotc created, just like that retarded excuse of a half elf that killed all the Tanis clones (pre Drzzit clones) faster then a Drow gets sunburn. Basically it was a failure of imagination on Wotc's part, to give a cool, well thought out class.
The only thing I would change is to come up with more ways to make an "Arcane Dabbler" style character easier to make through feats and traits that ease the multiclassing weaknesses of arcane classes to create many 'styles' of Arcane Dabbler.
All the best,
Kerney
I know having a spellbook is the more classic view of a spellcaster, but I really am not a fan of them and do like that there are more spontaneous caster options.
Spellbooks, for me at least, are too much work and not as flexible. Sure, you get more of a spell selection, but you have to choose carefully each day as you have a limited amount of spells and I always seem to find myself short of spells I need. Yes, that is what scrolls are for, but I am not a fan of scrolls for combat due to the full round it takes to cast them.
It is why I am much more of a fan of a Sorceror over a Wizard. Sure, you have less spells known, but you get more per day and the spells you do have, is very flexible in casting. You aren’t going “Shoot, I casted my last Lightning Bolt, wish I had another one right now.” Unless you just cast all your spells for that level, which I almost never have done for my Sorceror.
So I am not too unhappy there are more spontaneous casters than ones that use spellbooks as I just find spontaneous casters more fun to play.
The big issue is that 3/4 casting doesnt work well with spellbooks. The balance between spontaneous and prepared is that prepared gets access to more spells but fewer spells per day. Now consider reducing a bards spells per day by the same proportion that sorceror to wizard is. Now ask yourself if you would want to play that class?
Spellbooks are, honestly, way too much of a hassle. OK, say you're a 5th level wizard and you didn't pick up magic missile, which just got awesome this level. So, you go find a wizard in town, you pay him, you make a spellcraft check to copy his spell in game, then you copy his spell onto your sheet. Repeat ad infinitum until all spells that you want that can be acquired are.
Guess what? Magic users in AD&D have a spellbook. The group I played with chose to do something akin to the sorcerer because it was "too much literal book-keeping" and took too much time away from the modules. Basically, all of that book-keeping is in addition to what must be done for every other class, including every other spellcasting class. Because of this, I would honestly say the wizard is the least fun class to play in the game because it involves the most time away from the table committed to the game, hell, committed to ONE character on the player's and the DM's part. Spontaneous casters not only don't have to worry about their single prepared spell of a type failing, they take less book keeping and less prep on everyone's part due to their limited selection. Plus, keeping things that way ensures that spells that they get will be more useful and interesting than those that divine casters get.
Instead of changing the class mechanics of a bard, perhaps it could be a feat?
Arcane Dilettante - Requires spontaneous casting & 3+ ranks of knowledge arcane
The character maintains a song/spell book using the same requirements as a wizard, learning 1 spell per caster level. New spells can be added to the list, requiring a spellcraft check to learn the spell. These spells may not be cast spontaneously. The PC is capable of setting aside up to half his spell slots a day as prepared spells, which are filled using the spells in the bards spell/song book.
Now, this would give the bard more flexibility without a reduced casting capability, but it costs a feat and the maintenance of a book. Not an immense solution, but it does give the bard a more learned feel (I think). There is/was a feat that allowed prepared spell casting (to make adding meta mg easy), this just adds a requirement and more potential spells.
Instead of changing the class mechanics of a bard, perhaps it could be a feat?
Arcane Dilettante - Requires spontaneous casting & 3+ ranks of knowledge arcane
The character maintains a song/spell book using the same requirements as a wizard, learning 1 spell per caster level. New spells can be added to the list, requiring a spellcraft check to learn the spell. These spells may not be cast spontaneously. The PC is capable of setting aside up to half his spell slots a day as prepared spells, which are filled using the spells in the bards spell/song book.
Now, this would give the bard more flexibility without a reduced casting capability, but it costs a feat and the maintenance of a book. Not an immense solution, but it does give the bard a more learned feel (I think). There is/was a feat that allowed prepared spell casting (to make adding meta mg easy), this just adds a requirement and more potential spells.
You are kidding right? I would never allow this at my table. This would be a MUST take for every sorceror, and more or less erase the standard wizard from play. It gets the best of both worlds with half your spells spontaneous for all those casted every day spells, and the other half prepared from a spellbook, allowing for the flexibility that makes a wizard powerful.
Hey, what can I say, I was serious. Although I was only thinking of bard/summoner when I wrote it. Perhaps I am too optomistic, as I was thinking of allowing the poor bard some prepared spells for flavor. To balance it out, perhaps require the spells to literally be cast from the book.
As an alternative, when you take this feat, you choose 1-3 spell slots to permanently turn over to memorization, or require 2 spontanious slots to memorize a single slot... Ack, just some thoughts. What do I know, I play wizards and witches.
Why should Bards need a spellbook? They use the magic of song (or whatever their art is) to cast spells. Traditionally, none of the perform abilities would have been written down, but passed down orally. The Illiad and Oddessy were designed to be spoken and taught orally, and performers would have memorized the entire thing to recite in front of a crowd. I would be very disappointed if class abilities for things that would be passed down verbally had to have something written down and studied to use.
I wanted this to apply to every spellcaster, including Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers. Some would have a small fixed list of Spells Known, and be able to cast them spontaneously and flexibly. Others would keep a prayer book or ogham record or whatever of specific rites and rotes and incantations, and prepare them in the morning.
*Nobody* would have access to every single spell on their spell list for free, learning potentially dozens of spells automagically just for reaching 3rd level, as even Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers would have to choose to be prepared 'book-casters' like Wizards, and aquire their spells through those means, or spontaneous 'innate-casters' like Sorcerers,...
Hear! Hear!
My thoughts exactly! But how best to implement this?I also find it somewhat annoying that (most) divine casters automatically have access to all spells of a given level. The somewhat restricted spell list of specialty priests in 2E was something I liked.
Hagor
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My thoughts exactly! But how best to implement this?
I also find it somewhat annoying that (most) divine casters automatically have access to all spells of a given level.
The easiest way would be to use the spellbook mechanic (even if the priest might think of it as a prayer book, or collection of nature rites in ogham/druidic or whatever). Since the Cleric / Druid / Paladin / Ranger already are the 'prepared' casters, they would retain the same spells per day, but only have access to starting spells like a Wizard from the appropriate list (all cantrips, 3 + Int mod 1st level spells, 2 additional spells / level) and be able to add spells normally (through paying money and inscribing them).
The Spontaneous Cleric/Druid, if directly copying over the differences between Wizard and Sorcerer, would gain +2 spells / day, but use the Sorcerer Spells Known table to determine how many 'prayers' or 'rites' they would know of each level.
Spells that a Cleric or Druid can cast spontaneously (cure wounds or inflict wounds, or summon nature's ally) would count as a free Spell Known for spontaneous divine casters, and a free spell automatically added to their prayerbook at the appropriate levels for prepared divine casters.
A 1st level spontaneous Druid with a 12 Intelligence and 16 Wisdom might be able to cast 4 1st level spells / day, instead of 2 / day, but she would only know 2 1st level spells (although summon nature's ally I would be a 'freebie'). So she might choose cure light wounds and entangle, in addition to the 'free' [/i]summon nature's ally I[/i]. She's got four castings a day, thanks to her Wisdom modifier, but cannot cast goodberry or charm animal, etc. unless she picks up a scroll of those spells, or adds one as a Spell Known at 2nd level.
If directly porting over the delayed progression of the Sorcerer vs. the Wizard, the spontaneous Cleric or Druid might also gain delayed access to 2nd level and higher spells, but, frankly, I don't think that's needed for balance, for the Sorcerer, or anyone else...
A 1st level prepared good-aligned Cleric with a 12 Intelligence and 16 Wisdom would be able to cast the normal 2 1st level spells / day, and have a 'prayer book' of all Cleric cantrips and 4 1st level spells (plus cure light wounds, which, again, would be a freebie). At 2nd level, he gain two more 1st level spells to add to his prayerbook.
At 3rd level, he'd add two more spells, which could be 1st or 2nd level, plus cure moderate wounds, to his prayerbook. At any time, he might spend some coin to add another prayer he'd found to his prayerbook, such as from a scroll of silence.
Paladins and Rangers would require a different chart, obviously, since we don't have a lower-progression spontaneous caster to compare against.
Why some players do not like spell books: 3 out of 5 GM start the game off with everyone unconscious, tided up, butt naked, and in a jail cell. Any fighter can pick up any weapon and armor, same with rogue, cleric can make do with weapons and armor as well till they find (or make) a holy symbol.
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. The wizard on the other hand have to get that SPELLBOOK back; keep it safe from damage, ware & tare, or spend hard earned gold to replace it. (( a smart wizard then makes 3 back up books with 2 in the bank for save keeping.... which cost even more gold)).
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On top of all that, then the spells they memorize for the day might or might not be of use.
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Anyway after that happens often enough, Sorcerer class really begins to look good with: no spell book, Eschew Materials right off the bat as a free bonus feat; and then able to cast the spell they wont (( even if the spell selection is limited)).
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I like the Wizard Class as listed in the Pathfinder PHB. The only thing i would change is getting rid of the Arcane bond (make it optional), and give wizards the Spontaneous Casting ability : Summon Monster since Summon Monster has one for each spell level 1-9. To better encourage wizards selecting colorful spells.
ok my 2 cents.
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@Set
Interestingly enough a variant I'm working on has the consequence of doing exactly what you're trying to do: Allow people to choose between prepared and spontaneous at first level as a class choice. It has other consequences that might not fit with your vision, but you might want to check out this thread anyway. It might at least spark you imagination on such rules.
Here's a direct link to the rules discussed by the above thread.
Hey I actually LIKE the vancian system.I have to say I like the idea of having more casters who need a book.
Just not using the Vancian system.
So do I, though we are aparently in the minority.
So do I, though we are aparently in the minority.Hey I actually LIKE the vancian system.I have to say I like the idea of having more casters who need a book.
Just not using the Vancian system.
Considering that Vecna's not allowed to be used as a god anymore, I think that it's time we experiment a little with the much beloved magic system. I don't mean replacing it outright, but as a mechanical exercise I can think of a number of more playable solutions than having a spellbook.
Considering that Vecna's not allowed to be used as a god anymore, I think that it's time we experiment a little with the much beloved magic system. I don't mean replacing it outright, but as a mechanical exercise I can think of a number of more playable solutions than having a spellbook.So do I, though we are aparently in the minority.Hey I actually LIKE the vancian system.I have to say I like the idea of having more casters who need a book.
Just not using the Vancian system.
"Vancian" is "Like-in-Jack-Vance-Fiction", and not really Vecna-related.
"Vancian" is "Like-in-Jack-Vance-Fiction", and not really Vecna-related.Considering that Vecna's not allowed to be used as a god anymore, I think that it's time we experiment a little with the much beloved magic system. I don't mean replacing it outright, but as a mechanical exercise I can think of a number of more playable solutions than having a spellbook.So do I, though we are aparently in the minority.Hey I actually LIKE the vancian system.I have to say I like the idea of having more casters who need a book.
Just not using the Vancian system.
Vecna is a re-arrangement of Vance's name. Hence being the world's most powerful wizard.
Vecna is a re-arrangement of Vance's name. Hence being the world's most powerful wizard.
+1