I was thinking of the different stats and how some ability scores tend to become dump scores more than others. There's a LOT going for dexterity (AC, init, ranged and finesse attack bonus, good skills, reflex saves), and the only class that would have it as a dump stat is probably cleric. Intelligence has one important feature, skill points, and that's it for everyone but a wizard. It also has some skills tied into it, but most of these are skills that you don't need a very high number in.
I like classes being a bit MAD - I don't have as much a problem with the MADness of the monk as I have with the SADness of the sorcerer.
So I was thinking of switching Initiative to Intelligence. It makes sense, being quick in mind to analyze a situation and acting upon it. Since initiative is important, especially to casters and sneak attackers, it would increase the value of intelligence. The problem might be that wizards, which are already one of the strongest classes, gets a quite big boost.
However, wizards (and casters in general) aren't very strong at low levels, but gain more power at high levels. While PF has improved many facets of this, it's still something to take into consideration.
So I was thinking, maybe one could BAB to it. Initiative is a combat stat, and a combat-focused class should probably be trained in instantly responding to a threat. This would of course make Initative modifers much higher than they are now, but that isn't really an issue.
One bonus that might be with this, is that solo enemies can be more dangerous - right now, the fight against the powerful dragon is a non-issue unless the dragon has a lot of minions. If he's got a much better initative modifier (which he would have, since he's got more HD and full BAB than PC's), he has a change to buff up or summon help or the like before the PC's kill him.
What do you people think?
It's an interesting variant. One note though: a high Intelligence person may not necessarily act more quickly. That high IQ person may see more options than someone else and need more time to assess those options thoroughly, thus negating the advantage of their brilliance.
Bearing in mind what Lathiira said, I would make it a feat, that you can sub in your Int for Dex in initiative (much like there is a feat for subbing in your Dex for Strength for attacking). Call it "Fast Thinker" or some such.
Dexterity's not as impressive as you think. It's the most defensive statistic in the game, but that doesn't make for a lot when you're up against hordes of foes.
I do see potential wizard abuse of this, since they would then have no reason to support any statistic but Int.
Dexterity's not as impressive as you think. It's the most defensive statistic in the game, but that doesn't make for a lot when you're up against hordes of foes.
I do see potential wizard abuse of this, since they would then have no reason to support any statistic but Int.
Dexterity, like constitution and to some extent wisdom, is generally "overall" good attributes that no-one can dump too much. Intelligence, strength, and charisma can be dumped to nothing for some characters.
And a wizard has to have dexterity and constitution anyway, since they have bad hit points and bad armor. Yes, it makes wizards a bit more SAD unfortunately, but it makes several other classes more MAD and it takes away some power from the wizard in that all classes except sorcerer will gain more initiative per level than the wizard.
I cannot for the life of me concptualize how being able to learn things easier would allow you to react faster in combat.
I can conceptualize being more skilled as adding to how quickly you react, but BAB is not the measurement for how experienced you are in combat.
This hurts characters who are supposed to be acting quickly a lot. Rogues take a huge hit, inquisitors some but less so. This is basicly giving full BAB classes a +1 to initiative every 4 levels over the 3/4, and this does not fit the existing flavor. Many of the 3/4 classes should be faster.
To me, this houserule does not make conceptual sense and does not help game ballance.
I cannot for the life of me concptualize how being able to learn things easier would allow you to react faster in combat.
Intelligence is not only being able to learn things easier - it's also the ability to analyze and reason. Some people have compared it to a mental dexterity. Note that in 4th edition (for all it's flaws and faults) the reflex defense relies on dexterity and intelligence.
I can conceptualize being more skilled as adding to how quickly you react, but BAB is not the measurement for how experienced you are in combat.
There is no measurement for how experienced someone is in combat at all, but it has more than a little connection to it. The classes that have full BAB have fighting as a major theme even outside of the PC's. While all PC's fight a lot, not all NPC's do. I can see a 4th level wizard that has never fought in his whole life, but I can't see a 4th level paladin or fighter that has the same.
Fighting classes, that have fighting as their main "schtick", have full BAB. Clerics, rogues and the like - to them, fighting matters, but not as much.
This hurts characters who are supposed to be acting quickly a lot. Rogues take a huge hit, inquisitors some but less so. This is basicly giving full BAB classes a +1 to initiative every 4 levels over the 3/4, and this does not fit the existing flavor. Many of the 3/4 classes should be faster.
That's very valid criticism and I didn't think of it as much before. I would like fighters and paladins to have higher initiative than clerics and wizards, but you are right in that a rogue or bard should be as fast as the others. I hadn't thought about that.
Why not continue to tie initiative to Dex, but make it a skill?
That way characters with a better Int can afford skill ranks to put in it, and you can make it a class skill for the classes you think should be better at it. Plus it now scales with level for whomever wants to spend the resources to have it do so.
Why not continue to tie initiative to Dex, but make it a skill?
That way characters with a better Int can afford skill ranks to put in it, and you can make it a class skill for the classes you think should be better at it. Plus it now scales with level for whomever wants to spend the resources to have it do so.
That's the way SW Saga Edition did it if memory serves, and it wasn't bad. The only question I have is should improved initiative stay the same?
Why not continue to tie initiative to Dex, but make it a skill?
That way characters with a better Int can afford skill ranks to put in it, and you can make it a class skill for the classes you think should be better at it. Plus it now scales with level for whomever wants to spend the resources to have it do so.
That's not a bad solution, but it has one major problem: It would be a skill tax on every character. All characters would no doubt max it if it was just "Add your modifier to your initiative".
Maybe it could be done so that you only add a certain amount of that bonus to your initiative, like 1/3 of the bonus, and the skill gets to have some minor other use.
Hmmm, not bad at all! +rep for you!
Why not continue to tie initiative to Dex, but make it a skill?
That way characters with a better Int can afford skill ranks to put in it, and you can make it a class skill for the classes you think should be better at it. Plus it now scales with level for whomever wants to spend the resources to have it do so.That's not a bad solution, but it has one major problem: It would be a skill tax on every character. All characters would no doubt max it if it was just "Add your modifier to your initiative".
Maybe it could be done so that you only add a certain amount of that bonus to your initiative, like 1/3 of the bonus, and the skill gets to have some minor other use.
Hmmm, not bad at all! +rep for you!
I like the idea of initiative being skill based instead of attribute based. It would be a taxing skill but you could also make it that melee types would have it as a class skill. This would give them a +3 bonus to it.
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That's the way SW Saga Edition did it if memory serves, and it wasn't bad. The only question I have is should improved initiative stay the same?Why not continue to tie initiative to Dex, but make it a skill?
That way characters with a better Int can afford skill ranks to put in it, and you can make it a class skill for the classes you think should be better at it. Plus it now scales with level for whomever wants to spend the resources to have it do so.
I think you just throw away improved initiative and replace it with Skill Focus: Initiative
you could probably change alertness from +2 Sense Motive/Perception to +2 "Init"/Perception
You would likely want to change the trait reactionary to the more typical: You get +1 to the Initiative Skill, and Initiative is treated a s a class skill for you. (Which actually is now a +4 if it wasn't already a class skill.)
I'm not sure I would be keen to implement this in my game, because it seems like a skill tax, which martial classes being skill starved would feel obligated to pay. All for a mechanic that is usable once per combat.
have you ever thought of taking the average of INT and DEX bonus for the initiative.
I know a game, namely shadowrun where that is done like that.
in my game if I have a tied initiative, and both parties have the same bonus, I default to INT bonus.
have you ever thought of taking the average of INT and DEX bonus for the initiative.
I know a game, namely shadowrun where that is done like that.
in my game if I have a tied initiative, and both parties have the same bonus, I default to INT bonus.
I actually like this idea but I would push it even further and do the average of Dexterity, Intelligence, and wisdom.
Dexterity = your physical response time
Intelligence = your mental response time
Wisdom = your knowledge of how and when to act
That's not a bad solution, but it has one major problem: It would be a skill tax on every character. All characters would no doubt max it if it was just "Add your modifier to your initiative".Why not continue to tie initiative to Dex, but make it a skill?
That way characters with a better Int can afford skill ranks to put in it, and you can make it a class skill for the classes you think should be better at it. Plus it now scales with level for whomever wants to spend the resources to have it do so.
It'd be no more of a skill tax than Improved Initiative is a feat tax. Many, many characters decline to take Improved Initiative. Those same characters would probably similarly decline to take a rank every level in the Initiative Skill.
Honestly,
After reading this thread, I think the best solution might be :
INT Bonus + DEX Bonus + WIS Bonus + Feat Bonus + 1d20
I also played Shadowrun, and found the idea of (Dex+Int)/2 = Reflexes to be a decent idea. It doesn't work as well for PF due to how initiative works, but I'd be fine with adding all 3 stat bonuses together as the base initiative. This factors in your character's physical ability to respond (DEX), his mental reaction speed (INT) and how smart he is about a tactical situation (WIS).
I don't think adding BAB in straight is a good idea (the gap is too big at higher levels). But, I think you could add +1 I think for ever iterative attack the person is capable of taking (IE: +1 at BAB 6, +2 at BAB 11, +3 at BAB 16). This gives full BAB an edge, but doesn't let them totally dominate by level 12.