I thought this recent blog post would be of interest to those who are looking to become writers and get into the RPG industry or build a RPG company. It is a little peek to what really happens "behind the curtain" of running a RPG business. Hope you enjoy
Good solid advice... :D
I have to whole-heartedly agree with that mantra (it is just like in retail work saying how may I help you to the customer). I believe Paizo is a perfect case and point. I'm a little curious who Writer X is out of amusement, but as you've stated, it's unimportant.
I also had a chuckle and comment at the phrase 'mouth breathers' as it reminds me of both LotR and a scene in White Collar.
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I thought this recent blog post would be of interest to those who are looking to become writers and get into the RPG industry or build a RPG company. It is a little peek to what really happens "behind the curtain" of running a RPG business. Hope you enjoy
Wow, Writer X is both a misunderstood genius ahead of his time AND a naturally gifted lover. It is hard for us mouth-breathers to even comprehend the burden of awesomeness he must bear.
Object lesson for would-be RPG writers: writing for money is not the same as writing for yourself. Actually, that is true of most endeavors. When you expect someone to exchange cash for goods and/or services, the rules change.
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Nice. I'd like to respond. Make of it what you will. Throughout my response I will be using the term "you" in its most generic sense. Also, the following is strictly my *opinion*.
I'm one consumer. I can only speak for me. To the writer/artist who rolls their eyes and my existence and treats me with disdain, I have good news and bad news.
The good news: You're right. I don't know the first thing about art. I'm an engineer. I design pump systems. I wouldn't know art if it walked up to me, slapped me in the face, and screamed "I'M ART, BONEHEAD". Your creativity is superior to mine. Good for you.
The bad news: I get to decide how to spend *my* money. Not all of it, mind you. Just some. I have to pay taxes and meet my financial obligations, but after that, that beautiful little bit left over is all mine to spend however I wish and I know you want some of it. That's right artist/writer/creator, you want me to pay my hard earned cash for your product. The thing is, I get to decide how that money is spent based on any criteria I want. I can choose to by a collection of grocery shopping lists by James Jacobs for no other reason than I think he's a snappy dresser. I can choose not to buy the magnum opus of [insert writer here] because a friend of a friend told me that [insert writer here] said I looked fat in these jeans, even though he/she has never met me. I can choose to only buy products about carnivorous spider monkeys, even if there have been 8,927 RPG books already published on the subject of carnivorous spider monkeys. I can hold out for one more, stubbornly, illogically refusing to spend my money on another RPG supplement until I get the Ultimate Stupendous Carnivorous Spider Monkey Extravaganza and there is absolutely nothing you or anyone else can do about it. (Again, assuming I live in a free Country, which, fortunately, I do.)
My point: Your artistic superiority isn't necessarily going to get you any of *my* money. I'm only one consumer. My money, by itself, is no more important than that of anyone else. But I'm willing to bet that you'd still like for me to plunk down cold, hard cash for your creation. I'm probably not going to buy your product if you call me a mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, killer monkey lover.
"But you don't know it's me who said you looked fat in those jeans," You say.
Again, you're right. I don't know who called me a mouth-breathing cretin, but I've got more good news and bad news.
More good news: I'm not as smart as I think I am. It's a shame, because I think I'm pretty darn smart. I've got two engineering degrees, right? Well, I know intellectually that my opinion is subjective. I am *not* as smart as I think I am. I might be gobbling up your products faster than you can write them. All the while you are snickering behind your keyboard, rolling your eyes in disgust, because I bought your hardcover, $50 Great Book of Names for Spider Monkeys that you made in 20 minutes with a random name generator. Good for you, I'm an idiot.
Here's more bad news: I'm not as dumb as you think I am. There's a balance here. I'm not as smart as I think I am but not as dumb as you think I am. I'm somewhere in between. From that somewhere in between, maybe I can pick up your $50 hardcover and see through your random name generator and recognize your disdain for me, your potential customer. Maybe, your disrespect bubbles over to the point you can no longer hide it in between stat blocks.
What's my point this time? I probably don't have one. I'm a mouth-breather. I believe we've already established that, but I've got money. I'm pretty sure you want it so you might want to cut me a little slack.
[Edited for spelling]
I had to respond to that.
I can’t imagine this is typical. If it is, Louis, you need to start hiring a better caliber of freelancers.
I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but it pains me to think someone might think this is representative of a large portion of writers.
I am not worried I have had the pleasure of working with GREAT writers like the Werecabbages and you can easily see the difference in attitude and quality.
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I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but it pains me to think someone might think this is representative of a large portion of writers.
I, for one, didn't presume this is typical. I know many writers - most are quite cool, if a little odd at times. I might even write for money one day myself and I hope that if I do I can avoid that sort of attitude altogether.
I just had to comment because Writer X seemed to be so completely full of himself....
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Sales.
EVERYTHING is about sales. You can be as creative as you want, you can create the Modern Mona Lisa. But if you don't sell anything you starve to death.
I traded in working for others to start my own photography studio years ago. What I learned REAL fast is that you are never your own boss. You don't set your own hours (fortunately that is NOT why I started my own business). Instead you find yourself with HUNDREDS of bosses, who want everything done their way, right NOW, for next to nothing.
The art I wanted to create had to wait. No one wanted "artistic" portraits. They just wanted pictures they could show to friends and family. So you suck it up and do what you have to do to earn the money the customers are wanting to fork out.
Do art for yourself, and enjoy it in the privacy of your own home. You want to eat, then it's all business.
Sales, it's what makes the world go round (and keeps you snaking on Cheetos and Mtn Dew).
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oh and just wanted to comment on this last part of the blog
What is important is how he feels about customers and selling. As a writer, what his bottom line? Selling what he wrote. As a RPG publisher, what is my bottom line? Customer satisfaction. And that makes all the difference. Talk to you later...
As a writer his bottom line is selling what he wrote. The publisher is his customer. If he does not satisfy his customer there will be no sale. IF he wants to sell a second piece someday he had better work on his customer service skills.
I'm not sure I would bother to buy anything from him, if I were a publisher. Unless his work really IS that GOOD, then I'd let his ego buy his groceries next week. I'd rather find someone I can work with in a friendly, easy way, that shares a mutual vision to a common end.
I'm not sure I would bother to buy anything from him, if I were a publisher. Unless his work really IS that GOOD, then I'd let his ego buy his groceries next week. I'd rather find someone I can work with in a friendly, easy way, that shares a mutual vision to a common end.
I hate to admit it, but it IS THAT GOOD. I work with a lot of writers who are hard core fans of what they write. But some other are just good writers who understand what works to sell RPGs. I wanted people to read this a get an "interesting" look at what can happen when your ego gets MORE than away from you. This same situation has happened a lot in the comic book arena with writers or artist who just do it for the money. Warren Ellis (Planetary and Authority fame) is well known NOT to like comic books, but he likes the money they make and he is THAT GOOD. Where is the line?
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I can understand some peoples reaction to Writer X, but you know, I don't agree with it.
Does it piss me off that X is an egotistical self-centered snob? Sure.
Am I going to refuse to buy anything he writes? Hell no.
When I buy an RPG book, I (usually) don't buy it because the writers were super nice to me, or they think I'm a 'cool dude' (but it wouldn't hurt lol), I buy it because I like playing games, and I believe it will add value to my games.
If I buy Supplement X and later found out the writers thought I was nothing more than a mindless peon, sure I'll be upset, probably voice my opinion, but I'd continue to play my game and most likely buy Supplement Y if I thought it were "neat".
I do want to stress that you don't have to be a jerk. Eventually, even I'll get tired of it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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oh and just wanted to comment on this last part of the blog
What is important is how he feels about customers and selling. As a writer, what his bottom line? Selling what he wrote. As a RPG publisher, what is my bottom line? Customer satisfaction. And that makes all the difference. Talk to you later...As a writer his bottom line is selling what he wrote. The publisher is his customer. If he does not satisfy his customer there will be no sale. IF he wants to sell a second piece someday he had better work on his customer service skills.
I'm not sure I would bother to buy anything from him, if I were a publisher. Unless his work really IS that GOOD, then I'd let his ego buy his groceries next week. I'd rather find someone I can work with in a friendly, easy way, that shares a mutual vision to a common end.
That's one of the things we talked about at the PaizoCon RPG Superstar panel, and on the messageboards during the contest:
Once you manage to get your foot in the door and get a chance to write something professionally, if you want to greatly improve the likelihood of getting a second (and further) chance to keep doing it, you would be well advised to make life easy on your customer - the editor, developer, publisher, etc.
Turn things in on time.
Follow the formats they use.
Don't turn in sloppy work.
Make sure you meet the targets goals they set for content, length, etc.
On top of all of that, you need to be creative, inventive, evocative, and all the other ive's that will make your work cool, salable, and interesting for the customer, but you had better be an epic-level creative savant if you can't master the basic necessities and requirements.
I'm sure publishing would be a lot easier without writers. we're whiny egotistical unfeeling and stubborn. at least I recognize this and talk to you during the creative process so we can do less of this after you get my copy
I love this quote. "Yeah I'm a prick and a jerk, but it's OK because I admit it."
What a loser.
Was it that offensive? Who knows what ideas the cloaked Writer X churned out? He was proud of his work. He felt it was originial and thought provoking. He felt that because the ideas were original and different they would be discarded in favor of more cookie cutter material.
Yes, someone should angle their writing for their audience, but at some point there needs to be paradigm shifts and new ideas. Sure proven ideas sell and harvesting a sure crop of sales is wonderful, but someone has to take a risk.
There could easily be past experiences that have jaded him some. He only asked that his full copy be read before a decision rendered.
His comments were not directly voiced to his customers and were perhaps influenced by the early hours. I've heard much worse uttered in an rpg store. I manage a business and I like 99 percent of my customers but behind closed doors I've leveled some tirade laced judgments. We have moments.
Selling what you write is important. But you can't tell me that is the only concern. God, I hope not. We'd all be writing jingles for big advertising if that was the case. Risks often fail. New ideas come crashing down, but sometimes they break through and that is where the genius lies. Writer X's end product could have been a lump of coal. I have no idea. But sometimes you have to worry about if the product is good, the idea intriguing, and let the sales come later.
I'm not sure I would bother to buy anything from him, if I were a publisher. Unless his work really IS that GOOD, then I'd let his ego buy his groceries next week. I'd rather find someone I can work with in a friendly, easy way, that shares a mutual vision to a common end.I hate to admit it, but it IS THAT GOOD. I work with a lot of writers who are hard core fans of what they write. But some other are just good writers who understand what works to sell RPGs. I wanted people to read this a get an "interesting" look at what can happen when your ego gets MORE than away from you. This same situation has happened a lot in the comic book arena with writers or artist who just do it for the money. Warren Ellis (Planetary and Authority fame) is well known NOT to like comic books, but he likes the money they make and he is THAT GOOD. Where is the line?
If it be that great of a work and the publisher doesn't mind doing all that extra time-consuming "heavy-lifting" effort that it'll take to make things "accessible" to the majority of the audience, 'cause the author won't do so, then by all means- it should be up to the publisher (and how masochistic they're feeling) whether or not to go ahead with it then.
I thought this recent blog post would be of interest to those who are looking to become writers and get into the RPG industry or build a RPG company. It is a little peek to what really happens "behind the curtain" of running a RPG business. Hope you enjoy
I think this post shows why people shouldn't have conversations like this at 5 in the morning. It's two in the morning now, so I can't really think of how I'd critique these ideas.
I hate to admit it, but it IS THAT GOOD. I work with a lot of writers who are hard core fans of what they write. But some other are just good writers who understand what works to sell RPGs. I wanted people to read this a get an "interesting" look at what can happen when your ego gets MORE than away from you. This same situation has happened a lot in the comic book arena with writers or artist who just do it for the money. Warren Ellis (Planetary and Authority fame) is well known NOT to like comic books, but he likes the money they make and he is THAT GOOD. Where is the line?
Hmmmmm... Sorry, I just had to respond to this. I skimmed it the first time and liked your advice to them but I obviously missed something that irritated me. :p
I identify with being proud of what you do, but I don't think anything could ever be so awesome that it negates just how important fans are though. It's only a matter of time before they lose touch with their fan-base and their customers become aware of this. I think that may be why there is so much resentment for big business. They couldn't care about the individual and try as they might, it shows.
As you know I've been doing this for a less than year and I openly admit the success I've achieved wouldn't have been possible without the feedback of the great folks on these boards. Their ideas and suggestions inspire me and sometimes help me make difficult decision.
No matter how great you are at something, someone will come along and do it better. Speaking as someone who has worked with you, I can appreciate that you're trying to give talent a chance to blossom. I just hope they figure out that they're fame rests on the decisions of all of us "mouth-breathers" that they're "better then". :P
I write for a 3rd Party Publisher. In essence, I am in the same position as Writer X. I cannot believe his remarks. That guy is completely out of touch. Any artist who has nothing but contempt for their audience deserves obscurity. As a creator, you aren't "better" than your customers. You just have a different perspective. When I write for 4WFG, I try and make something that I find interesting and that I feel is creative, sure. But I also try and make it something that's going to be fun for other people. My goal isn't getting a publisher to publish my work - I am a work-for-hire author, I sign a contract to do the work before I start writing - but rather to produce a work that the customers will enjoy. Yes, because that should translate into sales. But mostly, because I'm a gamer, too, and I'm the audience for other people. I'm the audience for SGG's products like the Godling and the Time Thief, both of which I really enjoyed. I'm the audience for the good folks at Paizo. I want products that offer a fun experience to my gaming table. I want people to talk about things I've worked on in a positive sense, because when someone creates a product that's fun and interesting, we all benefit.
I don't know who Writer X is, but I can say that their attitude is completely wrong.
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I'm not sure I would bother to buy anything from him, if I were a publisher. Unless his work really IS that GOOD, then I'd let his ego buy his groceries next week. I'd rather find someone I can work with in a friendly, easy way, that shares a mutual vision to a common end.I hate to admit it, but it IS THAT GOOD. I work with a lot of writers who are hard core fans of what they write. But some other are just good writers who understand what works to sell RPGs. I wanted people to read this a get an "interesting" look at what can happen when your ego gets MORE than away from you. This same situation has happened a lot in the comic book arena with writers or artist who just do it for the money. Warren Ellis (Planetary and Authority fame) is well known NOT to like comic books, but he likes the money they make and he is THAT GOOD. Where is the line?
well... darn!
lol
Well if it IS THAT GOOD, if I were a publisher I would smirk at him, post his conversation online in a blog, pay him his due, and reap the profits. All the while wishing he weren't such a jerk and wondering how GREAT his work would be if he were capable of learning and improving himself.
So, I'd take the money to the bank and humor him while letting him make me money.
You know, the American way! :)
Thanks for this.
Lots of ideas swirling around my head regarding Writer X. One is that the conversation was in the ridiculous part of the AM and took place online, so I don't know as to his state of mind at the time of the conversation(drunk, high, pissed at the world, or just really being himself). Another is LMP's hilarious, hardcore truth- sometimes when you're in sales, things make no sense whatsoever. Look at those silly rubber band animal shape thingies people are going crazy over. The guy who came up with those is a gazillionaire now, and that was off of selling funny-shaped rubber bands. Meanwhile, the guy who came up with zip discs(a sturdier and more reliable medium than CDs- not sure how they hold up against DVDRWs or whatever) is a comparitive pauper. Sales make NO sense sometimes. The third thing is that, yes, as an above poster said, no matter how good you are, there is always someone better. It's not that you suck and they rule, it's just the way of things in a unfeeling possibly unsentient universe that leans not so subtly towards entropy. There's always someone worse too. And there's always going to be a situation where the guy that is worse makes more money than you and the guy that is better than you lives in a van down by the river, possibly blissfully ignorant of his level of skill in your chosen field. It's got me a little more humble, and more interested in putting out my own stuff because I want to actually see it in print and share it with others, and not necessarily to pay rent.
CEO
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Not me! Not me!
Just wanted to get that out there in case there was any confusion. For the record I only call a few people mouth-breathers...and their names are Logue and Pett.
It isn't fun to fan the flames of the Logue vs. Pett War when one of the combatants has left the field of battle. Ohhhhh, those were good times when those two worthy foes tested their wits against each other on the paizo.com fields of battle. I miss those days!
-Lisa
Not me! Not me!
Just wanted to get that out there in case there was any confusion. For the record I only call a few people mouth-breathers...and their names are Logue and Pett.
It isn't fun to fan the flames of the Logue vs. Pett War when one of the combatants has left the field of battle. Ohhhhh, those were good times when those two worthy foes tested their wits against each other on the paizo.com fields of battle. I miss those days!
-Lisa
Who left the field of battle ?
Who are Logue and Pett?
Who are Logue and Pett?
No one you need concern yourself about... ;-)
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Who left the field of battle ?Not me! Not me!
Just wanted to get that out there in case there was any confusion. For the record I only call a few people mouth-breathers...and their names are Logue and Pett.
It isn't fun to fan the flames of the Logue vs. Pett War when one of the combatants has left the field of battle. Ohhhhh, those were good times when those two worthy foes tested their wits against each other on the paizo.com fields of battle. I miss those days!
-Lisa
Petts still writing APs. Not so Logue. He would be my guess for whom Lisa means.
Who are Logue and Pett?They are the fictional pseudonyms of the ghosts Pegg and Loute on page 23 of Curse of the Crimson Throne's Skeletons of Scarwall.
Hmm, I don't recall that one - you'll have to run that one by me again, after that whole fat snake thing I lost interest...
Who are Logue and Pett?No one you need concern yourself about... ;-)
Ha! 32594 good ideas and he thinks he's the new Vaughn.
Damn!
Not me! Not me!
Just wanted to get that out there in case there was any confusion. For the record I only call a few people mouth-breathers...and their names are Logue and Pett.
It isn't fun to fan the flames of the Logue vs. Pett War when one of the combatants has left the field of battle. Ohhhhh, those were good times when those two worthy foes tested their wits against each other on the paizo.com fields of battle. I miss those days!
-Lisa
Ah, happy days Lisa:)...
It is a vile fleshy thing - a distended mass of sweaty screeching hate with stunted wings and a lolling head fixed with a permanent leering grin. The Young Master, or Little Goule as the harpies refer to him is constantly yowling, screeching and acting up - desperate for the attention of the harpies, their servants, or anyone in the vicinity. It is a horrible, precocious child of about six years of age who has recently been busy using its newly acquired writing skills to pen lurid stories. Hundreds of these stories lie scattered around the chamber or are pinned to the walls of the chamber, some of the tales are especially vile and luridly illustrated.
I miss them too! He loved the feedback on these fine boards very much.
Not me! Not me!
A little quick on the denial there Mr Greg Artist Vaughan:)...
werewoof tellin some noob about Colonel Pett
It's good to see they've loosened your arms so you can type again heathy...
I think this is the case of what happens when pure writers, as opposed to RPG fans who happen to be writters get into the rpg industry. A true writer is an artist. He should not be force to compromise his art for the sake of popularity. I am a firm believer that if you wrote a novel, and your publisher says hey we need to make changes xy and z because it wont sell, you should kindly inform them which lower plane they can travel to in the near future.
An rpg product on the other hand is not simply a piece of art. The artwork and writing are not there for their own sake, they are there to accomplish a task. They are there to help consumers do something. You arent writting a novel, you are writing a very pleasantly decorated and cleverly disguised how-to book. Does this mean quality artwork or writing is lost on the consumer? Ofcourse not, but the art itself is not the point of the product, and therefore it is in a whole different world then the art would be on it's own.
If you have someone who is not normally an rpg writer or is not an rpg fan themselves, they may not understand this. Certainly many 'artists' have similar opinions on the masses of mouthbreathers who wish to impose their will on their art, and I wish them the best of it. But if you are writting for an rpg you are no longer just an artist, you are working to help the consumer enjoy and play a game. There fore the opinions and desires of those masses are far more important to the end result.
Ha! 32594 good ideas and he thinks he's the new Vaughn. Damn!
I'm much higher on the idea generation count now, Rich. Try and keep up! ;-)
I think this is the case of what happens when pure writers, as opposed to RPG fans who happen to be writters get into the rpg industry. A true writer is an artist. He should not be force to compromise his art for the sake of popularity. I am a firm believer that if you wrote a novel, and your publisher says hey we need to make changes xy and z because it wont sell, you should kindly inform them which lower plane they can travel to in the near future.
An rpg product on the other hand is not simply a piece of art. The artwork and writing are not there for their own sake, they are there to accomplish a task. They are there to help consumers do something. You arent writting a novel, you are writing a very pleasantly decorated and cleverly disguised how-to book. Does this mean quality artwork or writing is lost on the consumer? Of course not, but the art itself is not the point of the product, and therefore it is in a whole different world then the art would be on it's own.
If you have someone who is not normally an rpg writer or is not an rpg fan themselves, they may not understand this. Certainly many 'artists' have similar opinions on the masses of mouthbreathers who wish to impose their will on their art, and I wish them the best of it. But if you are writting for an rpg you are no longer just an artist, you are working to help the consumer enjoy and play a game. There fore the opinions and desires of those masses are far more important to the end result.
This is true only of artists who want to remain unemployed and unpublished. A writer who does not listen to their editor is a writer who will not see their work in print to any notable degree.
I am a firm believer that if you wrote a novel, and your publisher says hey we need to make changes xy and z because it wont sell, you should kindly inform them which lower plane they can travel to in the near future.
That is something you might be able to do if you were already a very successful writer, not when you are in the early stages of your career and actually want to have a working relationship with the publisher that decided to take on an up-and-coming writer.
For instance, Stephen King is probably successful enough now that anything he writes will sell. However, in the early days, when he first wrote "The Stand", his publisher told him to cut 400 pages himself, or the publisher would do it for him, because they didn't believe it would sell at the higher price (books were apparently priced based on page count then). So, he complied. Then, later, when he had achieved success, the book was reprinted with the original page count.
werewoof tellin some noob about Colonel PettIt's good to see they've loosened your arms so you can type again heathy...
It's not the amount of ideas.
It's the execution.....MWAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!
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Much like movie stars whose political opinions I really don't want to hear about, or musicians whose sex lives are of no interest to me, I'm pretty sure that I'll enjoy most game designers product much better without ever knowing what they think of me.
An awkwardness of the internet is that we now get to talk directly to writers and artists, and sometimes they turn out to be humans, and we get all pissy and disappointed that they didn't kiss our butts, just because we may or may not have once bought something they wrote.
Granted, when it's not happening to *me*, it's hilarious when Sean talketh the smack. :)
Still, I've learned from listening to other people freakishly misinterpret my own writing, that 90% of the time it's frustrating, and 10% of the time it's enlightening, and pretty close to 99% of the time, it's my fault for not communicating my meaning more clearly, and has nothing to do with 'mouth-breathing' on the part of the reader.
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Director of Narrative
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Much like movie stars whose political opinions I really don't want to hear about, or musicians whose sex lives are of no interest to me, I'm pretty sure that I'll enjoy most game designers product much better without ever knowing what they think of me.
While I'm certainly no one fancy, I think you have some crazy-cool ideas, and dig that you share them with the community here.