In a different thread (I can't find which one) one of the developers (James Jacobs IIRC) stated that augment summoning works on the summoners SLA. With the changes made to the SLA and the eidolon essential making them two sides of the same coin (and the reason they don't work together) does augment summoning work on the eidolon?
In a different thread (I can't find which one) one of the developers (James Jacobs IIRC) stated that augment summoning works on the summoners SLA. With the changes made to the SLA and the eidolon essential making them two sides of the same coin (and the reason they don't work together) does augment summoning work on the eidolon?
The summoner does not use the summon monster ability to call the eidolon. They just happen to have the same power source. They should have put (SU) beside the eidolon entry to note it as a supernatural ability.
to look at it from another direction, Augment Summoning is meant to boost normal summoned creatures. Its handy a lot of the time because summoned creatures from any given level loose their usefulness fast as you yourself gain levels. Thus Aug Summoning helps you get more use out of those summoning spells you know.
Eidolons, on the other hand, are much more powerful than the summoned monster of the same level. They are already "augmented", shall we say. As such the feat does not apply.
In a different thread (I can't find which one) one of the developers (James Jacobs IIRC) stated that augment summoning works on the summoners SLA. With the changes made to the SLA and the eidolon essential making them two sides of the same coin (and the reason they don't work together) does augment summoning work on the eidolon?Silly you for buying into their thin excuse for denying the Summoner the ability to summon monsters.
Your thoughts are perfectly logical, but the restrictions on the Summoner are more arbitrary and goal oriented. The class is a mess, to the point where people wonder if standard rules apply in cases- because at random they don't in others.
Certainly Augment Summons works on 'Summon Eidolon' as it's a summoning spell I believe.
-James
Egads! I see what you mean. Although with the limited duration of Summon Eidolon I can kinda see it as acceptable. At least there is a trade off. Its still kinda crazy to be able to buff an already awesome summoned creature with extra to-hit, damage, hit points, and fort saves. I wouldn't argue with a GM that said eidolons in any shape do not qualify.
Egads! I see what you mean. Although with the limited duration of Summon Eidolon I can kinda see it as acceptable. At least there is a trade off. Its still kinda crazy to be able to buff an already awesome summoned creature with extra to-hit, damage, hit points, and fort saves. I wouldn't argue with a GM that said eidolons in any shape do not qualify.In a different thread (I can't find which one) one of the developers (James Jacobs IIRC) stated that augment summoning works on the summoners SLA. With the changes made to the SLA and the eidolon essential making them two sides of the same coin (and the reason they don't work together) does augment summoning work on the eidolon?Silly you for buying into their thin excuse for denying the Summoner the ability to summon monsters.
Your thoughts are perfectly logical, but the restrictions on the Summoner are more arbitrary and goal oriented. The class is a mess, to the point where people wonder if standard rules apply in cases- because at random they don't in others.
Certainly Augment Summons works on 'Summon Eidolon' as it's a summoning spell I believe.
-James
I think he was talking about the class feature, not the spell from the APG.
Egads! I see what you mean. Although with the limited duration of Summon Eidolon I can kinda see it as acceptable. At least there is a trade off. Its still kinda crazy to be able to buff an already awesome summoned creature with extra to-hit, damage, hit points, and fort saves. I wouldn't argue with a GM that said eidolons in any shape do not qualify.In a different thread (I can't find which one) one of the developers (James Jacobs IIRC) stated that augment summoning works on the summoners SLA. With the changes made to the SLA and the eidolon essential making them two sides of the same coin (and the reason they don't work together) does augment summoning work on the eidolon?Silly you for buying into their thin excuse for denying the Summoner the ability to summon monsters.
Your thoughts are perfectly logical, but the restrictions on the Summoner are more arbitrary and goal oriented. The class is a mess, to the point where people wonder if standard rules apply in cases- because at random they don't in others.
Certainly Augment Summons works on 'Summon Eidolon' as it's a summoning spell I believe.
-James
You really have to try out the eidolon before you can be certain that he is completely awesome. Sure there are plenty of builds out there for dealing a lot of damage. But that comes at a cost. If you just have the eidolon as the main front line guy, and he isn't being buffed by the summoner, you'd be surprised how quickly he can disappear, especially at low levels when his resources are limited. And of course like always, the summoner is the weak link, so you can't forget about him either.
Augment Summoning
Your summoned creatures are more powerful and robust.
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
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Although eidolons are considered summoned creatures they are not brought forth using a spell of any kind. The "eidolon" class feature description leaves the nature of this conjuration vague saying simply that, (")the summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called and eidolon.(") or something very close to that, but no spell just the same.
In any case I cant image any DM going along with some sort of liberal interpretation where as the already insanely powerful eidolon is buffed using a feat that was intended to buff much smaller, temporary, spell consuming, companions.
No matter how you try to down play it, the eidolon is way OP. Yes it can be defeat just like everything else, and yes he is most of your class, but aside from it's weak saves, it's no more vulnerable then the fighter, or barbarian. Yet it still can make an absurd number of attacks (6 at lvl 5, up to 13 at lvl 7, and so on) to do more dmg then any barbarian or fighter of equal lvl. Likewise dmg output can easily be traded for utility.
aside from it's weak saves, it's no more vulnerable then the fighter, or barbarian.
Fewer hit points, lower saves, vulnerable to banishment and dismissal, fewer magic items (either that or the Summoner gets zero magic items), etc.
aside from it's weak saves, it's no more vulnerable then the fighter, or barbarian.Fewer hit points, lower saves, vulnerable to banishment and dismissal, fewer magic items (either that or the Summoner gets zero magic items), etc.
Just to add to that, Fighter's & Barbarians get to wear Armor. And they get more feats.
Augment Summoning
Your summoned creatures are more powerful and robust.
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
You are all missing the important part of this text. I have bolded it. Summon is italicized. This means Spells with the word Summon in them. The Eidolon is not summoned by such means unless conjured with Summon Eidolon. All summons are affected this way. Augment summoning works on the following for a Summoner
Summon Monster spells and spell like abilities.
Summon Swarm
Summon Eidolon
While we're at it I believe the Summon Monster under 6th level spells is supposed to be Summon Monster IX correct?
Talk to your DM about it. My position is that the feat does apply to the Eidolon. It very clearly states that the eidolon is treated as a "summoned creature". It also says later that you SUMMON the eidolon via a 1 minute ritual.
Talk to your DM about it. My position is that the feat does apply to the Eidolon. It very clearly states that the eidolon is treated as a "summoned creature". It also says later that you SUMMON the eidolon via a 1 minute ritual.
This is the important part, not the "summon" (or at least, not just that). Augment Summoning buffs every creature you summon with a summon spell. The ritual to call an Eidolon is not a spell. It's a supernatural ability (and really needs to be marked as one; I know this was asked and answered by Jason in the playtest, so I don't know why it didn't get a Su tag); not even a spell-like ability, which could qualify as a spell (and does in the case of the summon monster SLAs that the Summoner gets).
Talk to your DM about it. My position is that the feat does apply to the Eidolon. It very clearly states that the eidolon is treated as a "summoned creature". It also says later that you SUMMON the eidolon via a 1 minute ritual.This is the important part, not the "summon" (or at least, not just that). Augment Summoning buffs every creature you summon with a summon spell. The ritual to call an Eidolon is not a spell. It's a supernatural ability (and really needs to be marked as one; I know this was asked and answered by Jason in the playtest, so I don't know why it didn't get a Su tag); not even a spell-like ability, which could qualify as a spell (and does in the case of the summon monster SLAs that the Summoner gets).
So your saying that the Eidolon and the SLA that draw upon the same power, are completely different and don't really draw upon the same power at all. Since one is a super natural ability even though it isn't in the text, and the other is an SLA.
I'm really getting frustrated with all these exceptions. And that one doesn't make any sense at all.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I agree that it's a ridiculous rule with specious logic that doesn't match anything else in the game, but that pretty much sums up all of the nerfs to the Summoner class.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I agree that it's a ridiculous rule with specious logic that doesn't match anything else in the game, but that pretty much sums up all of the nerfs to the Summoner class.
This class begs for house rule. Which is why the OP should talk to his DM. Your not going to find a consensus on the forum because the class contradicts itself. And either side of the argument can be justified. This is a pure DM decision IMO.
Supernatural and Spell-Like Abilities don't have different power sources, by the way, or at least they aren't required to. There's no contradiction between the (not printed) (Su) tag for the Eidolon and the (Sp) tag for summon monster. Supernatural abilities are magical abilities that function in a way that is dissimilar from spells, while Spell-Like Abilities are magical abilities that function in a way that either duplicates existing spells or is at least very similar to the way a spell works. It's a mechanical distinction, not a flavor one.
Supernatural and Spell-Like Abilities don't have different power sources, by the way, or at least they aren't required to. There's no contradiction between the (not printed) (Su) tag for the Eidolon and the (Sp) tag for summon monster. Supernatural abilities are magical abilities that function in a way that is dissimilar from spells, while Spell-Like Abilities are magical abilities that function in a way that either duplicates existing spells or is at least very similar to the way a spell works. It's a mechanical distinction, not a flavor one.
It seems to me that if they are the same power just used in two different ways then what augments one should augment the other. It doesn't really matter what Augment Summoning says because the developers have already said that it does work for the SLA. That being said the class is full of contradictions and illogical contrivances . . . what's one more?
What the holy he-... this thread is supposed to be dead! Who has been animating corpses best left in the ground?
Equine Corpses at that!
Augment summons works on monsters summoned by a summon spell. Not "summoned" by a ritual which is an ability, (not a summon spell from your spell list.)
If you used a summon Eidolon spell to summon your Eilodon (2nd level??) then sure use the feat. otherwise use the feat your meant to use in the apg called summoners call and be happy, cause hes tough enough as is!
There is a feat similar to augment summon designed for the summoner's eidolon called summoner's call (APG 171) it gives a +2 to either Str, Con or Dex for 10 min. after the ritual.
My guess to this would be that to affect/augment the supernatural ability (ritual) to bring an eidolon, you have to specialize or train, similar to metamagic for spells and SLA where both exist but are different.
This would also mean that the summoner now needs to take that feat into consideration for his build apart from augment summoning.