I'm not sure exactly how balanced this bloodline is when compared with the others. While Hide in Plain Sight discussions are a bit of a dead horse at this point, this new bloodline is powerful enough to reanimate that horse and summon a cleric to beat on it some more! From other threads I've seen it has generally been accepted that the limitation to the powerful HiPS ability is that anyone who gets it is limited to skirmish tactics (which do no lend themselves to the expedient conclusion of combat).
skill even while being observed and without cover or
concealment, as long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow
other than your own. In addition...
Now for the first time we have a character class that is only hindered to the use of HiPS when casting spells that have a casting time of "full round action" or "1 round". Otherwise your sorcerer can simply cast a standard action spell and then move, slipping back into stealth during the move. Suddenly you're only showing glimpses of yourself as you rain spells of control and death upon your enemies. You'll be the @#%$ing wind!
On the other hand, this bloodline may be enough to make the Arcane Trickster worth using. Taking 5 levels of sorcerer instead of the requisite 4 allows you to use the "Robe of Arcane Heritage" to give you the HiPS ability, which you can have the funds for by 6th level. Sure, this option results in late entry to the prestige class but doing it this way means you don't have to waste the 3 feats and extra spellcaster progression for shadowdancer. The levels or rogue will also lend themselves nicely to this build by giving the fast stealth rogue talent, exponentially increasing the possible squares you might be hiding.
you saved yourself some feats, for a benefit that takes an item slot, which can be dispelled or disjunctioned, and can be instantly lost the moment you disrobe for the bath.
you saved yourself some feats, for a benefit that takes an item slot, which can be dispelled or disjunctioned, and can be instantly lost the moment you disrobe for the bath.
1. 3 feats is almost a third of your total feats, 16k gold is less than 2% of your projected income and is worn in a widely unused magic item slot.
2. Dispel is targeted, you cannot target a character you cannot see. Greater Dispel does have an area dispel option but that specifically states that it does not affect magic items. Disjunction is possible but its a 40 ft burst. They have to know where you are and then cast it which is unlikely when you can stealth 60ft. in any round that you are casually toying with your enemies. 120 when actively hiding with a double move action.
3. Prestidigitation eliminates the need to bathe. You can sleep in a robe, Prestidigitation cleans that too.
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HiPS is a strong ability that mimics Invisibility & Gr. Invis. While many spells can pierce Invisibility, fewer help against HiPS. Daylight is one, but so is any spell that can up your Perception Check. There's also more ways now to get Scent, Blindsense, etc. in the APG. And then there are monsters who just have super high Perception and senses, like Dragons.
Let your Players have fun with their abilities! Eventually their enemies (esp long term ones) will figure out the game and be prepared for those tactics. Epic session will ensue and all will have a great time!
--Fraggle Vrock
you saved yourself some feats, for a benefit that takes an item slot, which can be dispelled or disjunctioned, and can be instantly lost the moment you disrobe for the bath.1. 3 feats is almost a third of your total feats, 16k gold is less than 2% of your projected income and is used and a widely unused magic item slot.
2. Dispel is targeted, you cannot target a character you cannot see. Greater Dispel does have an area dispel option but that specifically states that it does not affect magic items. Disjunction is possible but its a 40 ft burst. They have to know where you are and then cast it which is unlikely when you can stealth 60ft. in any round that you are casually toying with your enemies. 120 when actively hiding with a double move action.
3. Prestidigitation eliminates the need to bathe. You can sleep in a robe, Prestidigitation cleans that too.
being up to 10 feet away from shadows or dim lighting doesn't protect you from darkvision either.
you add 2 levels to your struggling as an arcane trickster
you are using an item that likely won't be in any treasure hordes and requires a sorcerer to craft it. sorcerers are rare, but sorcerers that can craft these things are even rarer. no other person can craft a robe of arcane heritage but a sorcerer with craft wondrous item. this item is highly unlikely to be found at magic mart either. unless magic mart in your campaign is really lenient and you are playing an extremely high magic game. not every game even includes magic mart.
being up to 10 feet away from shadows or dim lighting doesn't protect you from darkvision either.the item itself can only be crafted by a sorcerer as well. as it's focus applies exclusively to sorcerer bloodlines. not many sorcerers have item creation feats. and sorcerers are described as a rare special occurance too. not everyone descended from the appropriate entity will become nor give birth to a sorcerer of that bloodline. if being 1 level of progression behind a wizard is bad, try 4. it's even worse.
Why are you fighting so hard to prove that this is not a powerful ability? Afraid your GM will create restrictions? That and my paragraph on the potential for an arcane trickster was a side thought, the point remains that HiPS is the very definition of "Awesome" when used on a full caster character. Nevertheless, most agree that darkvision does not negate HiPS. Even for those that still believe darkvision is one way to beat it, darkvision has a maximum range, and the sorcerer is not a melee character. Typical distance is 60 ft. which medium range spells can openly mock, close range spells can be cast outside of that as early as 16th caster level (not early but if that really matters the Reach Spell metamagic feat is a viable option)
Blindsight is similarly limited by range, blindsense and scent only allow for automatic pinpointing, and you still have full concealment (cannot be targeted by spells, 50%miss chance) tremorsense is only applicable when in contact with the ground, and I can't think of any arcanist that doesn't prefer to fly.
As for your points against the robe itself, it doesn't matter what kind of sorcerer made the robe it shifts to the wearer. Wizards CAN make it, its only +5 to the DC to make it for missing 1 requirement, and sorcerers that can craft, usually do so with wondrous anyway.
being up to 10 feet away from shadows or dim lighting doesn't protect you from darkvision either.the item itself can only be crafted by a sorcerer as well. as it's focus applies exclusively to sorcerer bloodlines. not many sorcerers have item creation feats. and sorcerers are described as a rare special occurance too. not everyone descended from the appropriate entity will become nor give birth to a sorcerer of that bloodline. if being 1 level of progression behind a wizard is bad, try 4. it's even worse.
Why are you fighting so hard to prove that this is not a powerful ability? Afraid your GM will create restrictions? That and my paragraph on the potential for an arcane trickster was a side thought, the point remains that HiPS is the very definition of "Awesome" when used on a full caster character. Nevertheless, most agree that darkvision does not negate HiPS. Even for those that still believe darkvision is one way to beat it, darkvision has a maximum range, and the sorcerer is not a melee character. Typical distance is 60 ft. which medium range spells can openly mock, close range spells can be cast outside of that as early as 16th caster level (not early but if that really matters the Reach Spell metamagic feat is a viable option)
Blindsight is similarly limited by range, blindsense and scent only allow for automatic pinpointing, and you still have full concealment (cannot be targeted by spells, 50%miss chance) tremorsense is only applicable when in contact with the ground, and I can't think of any arcanist that doesn't prefer to fly.
As for your points against the robe itself, it doesn't matter what kind of sorcerer made the robe it shifts to the wearer. Wizards CAN make it, its only +5 to the DC to make it for missing 1 prerequisite, and sorcerers that can craft, usually do so with wondrous anyway.
i will concede to the fact that it's a potent ability. i just won't consider it broken. you literally have to build yourself around it to use it. and the DM has to tailor the loot to your specifications. it does have drawbacks in that darkvision can beat it as can true seeing. the item required is a niche item that most npc wizard merchants wouldn't likely bother with crafting as they make a more stable profit selling thier cloaks of resistance and ability enchancers. i have rarely (almost never) seen sorcerers take item creation feats. i have never made it to 20th level either.
it does have drawbacks in that darkvision can beat it as can true seeing.Both things here are contested. You can go over to the old hide in plain sight threads if you wish to dreg it back up.
-James
lets see, it's a supernatural ability that utilizes dim light. darkvision negates the use of the dim light part on an individua; scale, and thus allows you to see such an individual. and true seeing sees through the supernatural part because it's magical in nature and allows you to see them.
This is the 'dead horse' that has been truly trashed to death. Darkvision does not remove the conditions. Shadows and lighting are not subjective. Even if an ability allows a character to see when they are present, they are not removed. Only changes in lighting conditions can remove them.
This is the 'dead horse' that has been truly trashed to death. Darkvision does not remove the conditions. Shadows and lighting are not subjective. Even if an ability allows a character to see when they are present, they are not removed. Only changes in lighting conditions can remove them.
it doesn't remove he conditions as a whole. it allows the person with the ability to see the hiding sorcerer. darkvision lets you see through darkness and dim lighting as if it didn't apply to you. it's not a negation. the conditions aren't dissapearing. you are just seeing through the dim light they used to hide because it doesn't apply to you. but i don't want to beat this dead horse any further either.
*sigh* I was not trying to start that whole discussion up again. It is widely accepted that because light conditions are not subjective, but rather a physical property, and that it does not require you to actually be IN an area of dim light but simply within 10 ft. that darkvision does not negate HiPS. Or the point that if you could not see shadow at all with darkvision, having darkvision would prevent you from even knowing where shadows are in order to user HiPS.
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And if the character were actually using the concealment from dim light you would be correct Shuriken Nekogami. However that's not what the ability is using. The shadow simply has to exist, regardless of any concealment it provides.
Darkvision does nothing to the underlying conditions.
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
From additional rules
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness.
Nothing in Darkvision actually removes shadows or changes the real light levels.
Hide in Plain Sight is good, but glitterdust still ruins your day (-40 to Stealth checks, no save on the penalty/no SR).
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lets see, it's a supernatural ability that utilizes dim light. darkvision negates the use of the dim light part on an individua; scale, and thus allows you to see such an individual. and true seeing sees through the supernatural part because it's magical in nature and allows you to see them.it does have drawbacks in that darkvision can beat it as can true seeing.Both things here are contested. You can go over to the old hide in plain sight threads if you wish to dreg it back up.
-James
1) No, Darkvision doesn't. It's "see in the dark" vision not "Shoot beams of light out of your eyes to light up the area" vision
2) True Seeing does not let you see creatures who are simply hidden. Pretty sure it says that in the spell.
And my players wonder why every caster has glitter dust or fairy fire.....
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It seems most people here agree dark-vision does not negate HIPS, which means my next sorcerer might be shadow bloodline, though the party will acuse me of not participating, I can claim to be watching their backs.
lets see, it's a supernatural ability that utilizes dim light. darkvision negates the use of the dim light part on an individua; scale, and thus allows you to see such an individual.
Incorrect. Darkvision does not negate the 'use' of dim light. Rather it removes, within it's range, the individuals penalties for concealment from dim light (or darkness).
HiPS does not gain concealment from dim light that the user is not in. Rather its nearby presence allows them to use a special ability.
There is a difference here, that was thoroughly hashed out in other threads. Perhaps you wish to resurrect one of them?
-James
no i do not wish to ressurect this dead horse another time. i will concede this argument. there is no point in me continuing. this dead horse keeps coming back. whether we want it to or not.
i don't spend 8 hours a day reading rulebooks and contemplating every possible scenario, nor do i know every possible loophole. i am not very skilled at debating either and like to hide behind others. unfortunately in this case, i have no one to hide behind.
here is another potential point.
the shadow also has to be big enough to fit you and it cannot be your own shadow either. rolling a marble is not a sufficient source of shadow to hide behind.
It seems most people here agree dark-vision does not negate HIPS, which means my next sorcerer might be shadow bloodline, though the party will acuse me of not participating, I can claim to be watching their backs.
But the beauty of it all is that a shadow sorcerer CAN both participate and hide the entire time. And don't let anyone ruin your fun with a simple daylight spell, all such a sorcerer needs is a shadow that is not their own. The brighter the light, the more pronounced the shadows.
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Hi, guys and gals!
Please click 'FAQ' on the top post of This thread I've linked right here
to help build support for developer insight into Stealth, HiPS, etc.
Also, NOTHING will EVER make Seoni look prepubescent.
Many thanks!
J