Summoner's Eidolon = OP?

[Amuny]

Hello there,

So I just bought the Advanced Player's Guide yesterday, and was looking to the new classes. My usual way to proceed is creating a Lv10 char of this class on paper and see what it does, so I can actually be ready to handle my players doing these characters.

So I did. Printed some sheets, and created a Lv10 Summoner, with his Eidolon sheet. And to my surprise, by doing an damage-spec eidolon, I come to some outsanding damage output that I'd call OverPowered.

So let's compare with an averag Lv10 Fighter:
He got +10BAB, usually 18/20 strenght. Consider he is dual-wielding for purpose of comparison with the multi-attacks from the Eidolon. It gives an average of +18/+13 x2 for something around 1d8+8 and 1d6+8.
So, let's get for a great fighter with some nice stats and stuff, can easily comes to +20/15 1d8+10x2, which will be easier to compare. This gives us something around 60damage/round with all attacks hits. Which is quite nice.

Then come's out with the Eidolon. The creature got 8HD instead of 10HD for a lvl10 summoner.
He got +8BAB. Any usual player willing to get damage output will take the Large Evolution. giving a Strenght of 28(+9) for a bipede eidolon.

Then, here's the list of Evolution totalising 14points, which is the lvl10 pool, given to the eidolon:
Large, Energy Attacks, Magic Attacks, Bite, Improved Damage (claws), Limbs (arms), Claws (arms), Rend.

This bring us to nothing else but:
Bite +17 (2d6+9)
Claws +17 (1d8+1d6+9) X4
Rend (per 2claws hit) : +1d8+13.
Which give us something around 115DAMAGE, which is actually near DOUBLE the fighter's damage assuming all hits found their places.
And the eidolon got a 10foot-reach and an awesome CMB-CMD.

PLUS, this is a fully-unbuffed eidolon. And any person who read the summoner can says summoner gets a LOT of buffs. Giving a Con-poison on the bite seems something basic to do with the Evolution-buff spells. Or even quickly give a complete element-immunity.

MORE, the Eidolon actually get Fortitude AND Will as High-Saves bonus, and got Evasion. Fighter only have Fortitude and nothing about Evasion.

So assuming this, the eidolon could easily 1round-kill any character of equivalent level with all his attacks. And actually got a little spellcaster following him to buff/heal him. Which the fighter didn't even have in his most beautifull dreams. This caster can even serve's him as a HP-Tank, which can bring him to have more HP than the actual fighter.

FINALLY, I would like to have your global idea about Summoner, even more if you actually tested it In-game. And especially about his eidolon. But my first impression is like... woah... poor fighter...

I'm a little bit disapointed to see this since the Evolution-system and all about the summoner seems very funny to handle, but a bit... too much?

Sincerely,
Amuny

[Zurai]

Your math is really terrible. So's your fighter.

[Amuny]

so's your post. Guess you can develop your point of view?

[Evil Genius Prime]

Amuny wrote:

so's your post. Guess you can develop your point of view?

Overlook Zurai. He's usually a grumpy fellow.

[Zurai]

Sure.

18-20 Strength is extremely subpar at level 10 for a Fighter. 24-26 is more accurate.

You're also seemingly ignoring the Fighter's class features and equipment. 10 BAB + 8 Strength + 2 Weapon Training + 2 Greater Weapon Focus + 3 magic weapon = +25 to hit. It's also XdY+15 damage.

You're ignoring chance to hit when comparing damage. Assuming that every attack hits is fallacious; it completely ignores a major factor in combat damage.

You're comparing at a level that heavily favors the Eidolon. Advance that to 11 and the Fighter gets 2 more attacks.

[Mojorat]

You did make some mistakes on your Eidolon example. The Bite is a secondary attack so is at +12

Secondly your fighter example didnt include power attack or what the Iedolongs AC looks like compared tot he fighter.

level 10 figter DW can sit around 30 AC and does not disappear because the bad guys hit the summoner with say deep slumber or any number of oher removal powers..

[wraithstrike]

You should also have used a two-handed fighter if you wanted to do more damage. The DPR Olympics thread shows what a decently built fighter can do at level 10, all the math, none of the work.

[Scipion del Ferro]

The new two-handed fighter archtype is even sweeter too.

[Amuny]

@Mojorat: Take your book, bite is a Primary Attack. Just read it again to be sure ^^
and eidolon can take power attack aswell, as a fighter is also unable to continue to fight if being struck by a deep slumber, and even get a much more lower Will Save than the summoner or the eidolon ;)
And the same eidolon got 23AC with nothing as shield/armor/deflection bonus that could be granted by buffs or items.

@Wraithstrike: that might be right. But I also wonder what it would give if we spe the Eidolon one only one single attack. Guess it would be much less damaging, but you can then consider many other evolution such as element immunities, SR, or poison.

Zurai wrote:

18-20 Strength is extremely subpar at level 10 for a Fighter. 24-26 is more accurate.

You're also seemingly ignoring the Fighter's class features and equipment. 10 BAB + 8 Strength + 2 Weapon Training + 2 Greater Weapon Focus + 3 magic weapon = +25 to hit. It's also XdY+15 damage.
You're ignoring chance to hit when comparing damage. Assuming that every attack hits is fallacious; it completely ignores a major factor in combat damage.
You're comparing at a level that heavily favors the Eidolon. Advance that to 11 and the Fighter gets 2 more attacks.

1) 18roll+2race+2(lv4&8) actually give a maximum of 22 strenght here. If you consider any strenght bonus item, these bonuses could be given by any bullstrenght or ability increase evolution, where the fighter can't.

2) See point 2, + add -2 from dual wielding, got the same to-hit bonus.
3) That's a good point, though assuming point 1 and 2, we didn't even got a difference of 5points at to-hit, and the eidolon can still receive a Magic Fang to gain what the magic weapon of the fighter gives.
4) Right. Advance to level 12-13 and add two other claws (and another rend bonus at the same time) to the eidolon.

Which didn't really advance me in my things. May be you could get a fighter as good as the eidolon is. But you still have two character (summoner + eidolon) where the fighter stand alone, which is also an obviously powerfull point.

So I'm the only one thinking there's something wrong about the summoner?

[Chris Ballard]

As long as the eidolon is not allowed armor, the class feels way underpowered. But, that's just me.

[Amuny]

Chris Ballard wrote:

As long as the eidolon is not allowed armor, the class feels way underpowered. But, that's just me.

I think that the +12 natural armor I got here at lvl10 is really enough to replace any fullplate :p

[bigkilla]

The thing that you have to remember is that while the Summoner and his buddy is fairly powerful there is a small minority of people who will not min/maxx the hell out of every situation in the game. If you take each example on a case by case basis I think that the Summoner is just fine. The problem I have seen since I started playing Pathfinder and especially since I started readying these message boards is everything is sooooooooo far to the min/maxx side and there is little to no roleplay or flavor to anything.

[mdt]

A few problems I see in your comparison :

A) Equipment purchases?
B) Eidelon seems maximized for melee damage, but the fighter doesn't.
C) Squishy Summoner not taken into account.
D) Slumbered fighter wakes up and has all class abilities, slumbered Summoner loses Eidelon.
E) Buffs can be ignored (both can get them, net sum zero). However, equipment that gives bonuses to stats cannot be ignored, since the summoner and eidelon share slots (blech).
F) If the summon is making weapon attacks, all naturals are secondary. If the eidelon is only using natural attacks, then primary/secondary proceeds normally from bestiary.
G) Fighter get's many more feats, therefore feat selection *IS* important, and you waved off objections to your feat selections as 'Both can get power attack'. But, unless you spend the feats and show what you did, that argument doesn't hold water, since the fighter get's twice as many feats.

[Amuny]

mdt wrote:

A few problems I see in your comparison :

A) Equipment purchases?
B) Eidelon seems maximized for melee damage, but the fighter doesn't.
C) Squishy Summoner not taken into account.
D) Slumbered fighter wakes up and has all class abilities, slumbered Summoner loses Eidelon.
E) Buffs can be ignored (both can get them, net sum zero). However, equipment that gives bonuses to stats cannot be ignored, since the summoner and eidelon share slots (blech).
F) If the summon is making weapon attacks, all naturals are secondary. If the eidelon is only using natural attacks, then primary/secondary proceeds normally from bestiary.
G) Fighter get's many more feats, therefore feat selection *IS* important, and you waved off objections to your feat selections as 'Both can get power attack'. But, unless you spend the feats and show what you did, that argument doesn't hold water, since the fighter get's twice as many feats.

A) As I said, I use basic without buffs or magic stuff. May be the fighter will be slightly better with a bunch on magic items, but still.

B) Nope. Two of them are calculate with half-value for each dice. That's the worst part of it. Maximum would be even more horrible
(fighter would reach the 70-80, while the eidolon cap would hit the 150-160)
C) Don't understand what you want to mean by that ^^
D) summoner could use a spell to bring it back as it was, but that's right.
E) True
F) Though in the example all of these are natural attacks. I think using weapon is a very bad idea with some evolution combinaisons!
G) Fighter get feats, Eidolon get Evolution. Considering this, I think we are nearly on the same stage ;)

But ok, let's consider all your post. So the fighter get the stat you all speaks about, and the fighter actually hit the same damage as the eidolon in average. I think we just can't ignore the fact "Summoner" in everything.

And damage is a thing. The eidolon actually got better Saves(Will&Fort instead of fort only) than the fighter, and Evasion. He is large, which give him a 10foot reach, and also awesome bonuses on CMB-CMD.
Where the fighter can have a feat, the eidolon can have an evolution.

Am I seriously the only one thinking there's something wrong? Does anyone tries the summoner in game? I'm really curious about it.

For my part I wouldn't actually allow one in my games though,

[Ice Titan]

Amuny wrote:

Chris Ballard wrote:

As long as the eidolon is not allowed armor, the class feels way underpowered. But, that's just me.

I think that the +12 natural armor I got here at lvl10 is really enough to replace any fullplate :p

Level 10 - 2+8 = 10 = +1 full plate + higher max dex.

The problem comes when your eidolon is wearing a ton of gear and you're running around naked as the day when your character was generated.

[Austin Morgan]

Oh look, someone else complaining about the Summoner being overpowered and using biased mathematics to "prove" it.

[mdt]

Yes, fighters get feats. Eidelons get evolutions. They are NOT the same thing.

Let's try stating that a different way. Fighters get class abilities, Eidelons get evolutions. These should be similar enough. Now, add on to that the fighter get's extra feats. As has been pointed out, the fighter's class abilities are pretty powerful, above and beyond the feats. Armor training, weapon training, etc.

As for the 'squishy summoner', the point is that the summoner is a very squishy achilles heal for the eidelon. Yes, the eidelon is powerful, but again, if you are loading up the eidelon with magic items (which as you stated, both get, so it's moot) then you are forgetting the 'squishy summoner' who is running around without items and getting squished (which sends the eidelon away).

Fighter can have reach too, choose a polearm, boom, he has reach. That's why I said you have to do a better comparrison.

Build a fighter and an eidelon, spend the gold amount on equipment for the fighter and the summoner. Spend the feats. Optimize both for battle. Not because you should be playing this way, but because you should be comparing apples to apples, not guavas to pinecones. You optimize when you're doing comparisons to show the maximum potential of the class.

Additionally, you're comparing a summoner/eidelon paring to a fighter. That's automatically going to come out against the fighter. Sorry as I am to say it, the fighter ALWAYS comes out looking bad against a pet class.

The better comparison would be between a Druid and a Summoner. For example, if you compare a fighter 10th level to a druid 10th level who's built towards being a pet tank, the fighter goes down like a rocket in one round. He looks totally outclassed at combat.

As to are you the only one who thinks he's OP, yeah, it appears that way. I have had both npc and pc summoners in my game since the playtest, and honestly had to go back to the original version because they were pretty easily taken down. Now, granted, I didn't have someone making a 30 arm tentacle monster, but that was fixed by limiting # of attacks.

EDIT: And before someone says 'Wait, which is it, is the fighter equal to the eidelon or is he weak because it's a bad comparison', both are valid. The fighter will NEVER be able to look as good on paper as a pet class. The particular exmaple above however is heavily stacked against the fighter in the first place, which makes the difference seem even larger. It would be like comparing druid/pet build to fighter and then saying 'Well, fighter get's feats and druid get's spells, so that's a wash'.

[Amuny]

mdt wrote:

Yes, fighters get feats. Eidelons get evolutions. They are NOT the same thing.

Let's try stating that a different way. Fighters get class abilities, Eidelons get evolutions. These should be similar enough. Now, add on to that the fighter get's extra feats. As has been pointed out, the fighter's class abilities are pretty powerful, above and beyond the feats. Armor training, weapon training, etc.

As for the 'squishy summoner', the point is that the summoner is a very squishy achilles heal for the eidelon. Yes, the eidelon is powerful, but again, if you are loading up the eidelon with magic items (which as you stated, both get, so it's moot) then you are forgetting the 'squishy summoner' who is running around without items and getting squished (which sends the eidelon away).

Fighter can have reach too, choose a polearm, boom, he has reach. That's why I said you have to do a better comparrison.

Build a fighter and an eidelon, spend the gold amount on equipment for the fighter and the summoner. Spend the feats. Optimize both for battle. Not because you should be playing this way, but because you should be comparing apples to apples, not guavas to pinecones. You optimize when you're doing comparisons to show the maximum potential of the class.

Additionally, you're comparing a summoner/eidelon paring to a fighter. That's automatically going to come out against the fighter. Sorry as I am to say it, the fighter ALWAYS comes out looking bad against a pet class.

The better comparison would be between a Druid and a Summoner. For example, if you compare a fighter 10th level to a druid 10th level who's built towards being a pet tank, the fighter goes down like a rocket in one round. He looks totally outclassed at combat.

As to are you the only one who thinks he's OP, yeah, it appears that way. I have had both npc and pc summoners in my game since the playtest, and honestly had to go back to the original version because they were pretty easily taken down. Now, granted, I...

Now THAT's a post I love, and the first thing I want to say is thank you.

I do not agree on the point that the summoner is an achille heel though, even less at higher level, were their HP pool are nearly fully shared. (Lv14, the summoner can use the eidolon HP to stay alive), but that's true in some case, we must admit it.

About reach well, a fighter with polearm can't reach the 5feet. Lunge seems a better way for me to work through that.

But your last point is definitly relevant to me. I think this will make me go further in my own tests, may be I will reconsider my meanings about that.

I guess I'll have to really see it in action before placing a real judgement.

[mdt]

You're more than welcome.

I really truly love the concept of the summoner. I think the eidelon is a great concept.

I just hate the way it was finally implemented. :( I'll be house ruling the class severely in my home games. :(

[Ismellmonkey]

Personally I think the class is a little on the weak side, not much more powerful then the bard really (although, bards aren't horrible). The only differences is the summoner looks better on paper because evaluations look so good, but the class as a whole has a heck of a lot of weaknesses to go with it's strengths.

Anyway the topic is overdone at this point. Time to move on.

[Kortz]

I was told there would be no math.

[Demon Lord of Tribbles]

Kortz wrote:

I was told there would be no math.

"They always say that, lying bastards. I just came for the hookers and Rum

[deadman]

Well with my current summoner I have found that yes he can put out a decent amount of damage, more than a fighter if all the attacks hit. But that doesn't happen too often. It really depends on the level, some levels the Eidolon might be better, others the fighter. However, if we are talking about overall the fighter is always a step ahead. Better saves, better AC, better HP, more feats, etc.

I have to constantly buff and manage the eidolon with my summoner, otherwise he wouldn't last that long. Without that there is no way the Eidolon is more powerful than a fighter. Think of it like this, two characters is better than one. Which is the case with the Eidolon here, he can't compare if he is on his own.

And like others have said, the summoner is the weak point, you take him down and the eidolon goes Poof! Pretty easy to do.

[kenmckinney]

You're not the only person who thinks the Summoner is overpowered. Although, I have only looked at the final playtest version of the Summoner, not what is in the APG.

Ken

[Tikael]

Here is an idea. Make a 10th level summoner, someone with some time make a 10th level fighter. Then pit them against each other. I personally think that the summoner is a little higher on the power scale at first level but that evens out and even begins to tilt against the summoner.

It may be even better to compare them at standard levels:
1/6/10/16

[Scipion del Ferro]

For a decent example on how to have two characters duke it out, you might refer to my Colosseum thread ;)

[wraithstrike]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

The new two-handed fighter archtype is even sweeter too.

I have the book, but I have read it yet. I guess I need to get started on that.

[Amuny]

Tikael wrote:

Here is an idea. Make a 10th level summoner, someone with some time make a 10th level fighter. Then pit them against each other. I personally think that the summoner is a little higher on the power scale at first level but that evens out and even begins to tilt against the summoner.

It may be even better to compare them at standard levels:
1/6/10/16

Fighter/Fighter/Fighter/Summoner,

Not even need to be tested. Fighter charge and slay the summoner and should be able to kill him before the eidolon does kill the fighter. (Might depend at 10th lvl if the eidolon can do a full round attack before the fighter though, that can be a hard one)
But because of the 14th level capacity of the summoner, the summoner have then a "double full HP" since he can pick out the eidolon HP instead of his own HP when he should be reduced below 1HP, which will cause that the fighter will actually get killed before being able to kill the summoner-eidolon. Even more since at 16th level the summoner can also merge with the eidolon and get actually a perfect immunity to any of the fighter ability.

And that get even worse with the 20th lvl ability where the fighter must actually kill two eidolon since the summoner can assume the same form as his eidolon and still be able to pick up in his eidolon's life pool.

But I agree with Mdt about the pet things. I think the actual "pit fight" to do would be with a druid, or a witch. More, these result really look like any fighter VS caster duel. The fighter will win in lower level, but will loose at higher level.

For me, this case is close. I will be able to reconsider it only after testing it in real gaming time

[Zurai]

Amuny wrote:

But because of the 14th level capacity of the summoner, the summoner have then a "double full HP" since he can pick out the eidolon HP instead of his own HP when he should be reduced below 1HP, which will cause that the fighter will actually get killed before being able to kill the summoner-eidolon.

False. Life Bond only triggers on damage that would kill the Summoner, and only while the Eidolon is summoned. It'll keep the Fighter from outright killing the Summoner with a single attack, but the Summoner will still be unconscious after stealing his Eidolon's hit points and the Eidolon will still be unsummoned because of it. Then next round the Fighter just gives the Summoner a paper cut and kills him.

[wraithstrike]

I am going to have to look over these new summoner rules and do some tweaking. I think too many of the wrong changes were made.

[Ceefood]

also so dont forget the size difference - a normal fighter can fit where a large eidolon cant - then what does the summoner/eidolon do?

[Ceefood]

@wraithstrike look at my other thread & see the changes I made & comment on them
thread link

[Austin Morgan]

Ceefood wrote:

also so dont forget the size difference - a normal fighter can fit where a large eidolon cant - then what does the summoner/eidolon do?

Great point! My Summoner got his Large Eidolon essentially stuck in a narrow hallway. He was "squeezing", or whatever it's called, but his progress was halted by our enemy's nice Battlefield Control spells. Thus, my Eidolon ended up without being able to move, and taking all those penalties that apply to "squeezing"... constantly. Needless to say... he died :/

Really, a Fighter's not better than a Summoner, and a Summoner's not better than a Fighter. We're comparing Apples to Oranges here, and that's even true for Fighter vs. Eidolon.

[Ceefood]

I dont have the new APG but in the playtest my eidolon was not min maxed - I had a concept & stuck to it

the idea was a young alien queen looking thing - she got 2x claws & bite with reach - I had plans for later to give it a tail attack
I also gave it acid energy attack - those were the only offensive attacks I gave it - could I outdo an average fighter for damage nope but I was not trying to either.

that is my point - sure you can min/max as much as you want & break nearly any class but most people dont do that but SOOOO many people did that on paper or one off test games that then "showed" how broken the summoner was we ended up with this "thing" called a summoner which is so restricted & nerfed as not being fun to play especially when so many other classes outpower it

based on multiple threads on what I have read now my pathfinder society summoner has been retired probably for good since it is all but useless - I might as well play my druid who could kick this summoner's butt without trying (level for level that is)

[Kortz]

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the new APG but in the playtest my eidolon was not min maxed - I had a concept & stuck to it

the idea was a young alien queen looking thing - she got 2x claws & bite with reach - I had plans for later to give it a tail attack
I also gave it acid energy attack - those were the only offensive attacks I gave it - could I outdo an average fighter for damage nope but I was not trying to either.

that is my point - sure you can min/max as much as you want & break nearly any class but most people dont do that but SOOOO many people did that on paper or one off test games that then "showed" how broken the summoner was we ended up with this "thing" called a summoner which is so restricted & nerfed as not being fun to play especially when so many other classes outpower it

based on multiple threads on what I have read now my pathfinder society summoner has been retired probably for good since it is all but useless - I might as well play my druid who could kick this summoner's butt without trying (level for level that is)

You start off talking about concept mattering, but then you end up saying you'll just play a Druid because it's more powerful.

The Druid is an entirely different concept. It only resembles the summoner in that it has a "pet."

You don't care about concept; you care about power, which is probably why you were drawn to the Summoner class in the first place.

Which is fine. But don't pretend they have ruined the Summoner concept or that it can't be fun to play when what you are really worried about is how the numbers shake out.

[Gorbacz]

Ceefood wrote:

that is my point - sure you can min/max as much as you want & break nearly any class but most people dont do that but SOOOO many people did that on paper or one off test games that then "showed" how broken the summoner was we ended up with this "thing" called a summoner which is so restricted & nerfed as not being fun to play especially when so many other classes outpower it

based on multiple threads on what I have read now my pathfinder society summoner has been retired probably for good since it is all but useless - I might as well play my druid who could kick this summoner's butt without trying (level for level that is)

I love the logic in the above post.

So, you are angry that Summoner was nerfed due to "paper tests" and you base your judgement of Summoner being nerfed on "paper tests". Like, go out and play one and then come back with conclusions based on actual play ?

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Wow....seriously, do you want to play a "character" or just a collection of numbers? If you're obsessed over min maxing and not developing a character, play one first and see what is actually there. I have seen characters that people wouldn't look twice at do really well in combat, and also, remember, a creative and well educated DM can make combat into something totally different to where the usual rules don't apply. Different environments, situations, and conditions as well.
Create a character, built that character, and see for yourself, don't listen to a bunch of people from the "boards" who say this suck and that sucks cause it doesn't live up to what they want or how they crunch "numbers".

[Ceefood]

@Kortz - the druid is very similar in concept pet class with buffing abilities - I am not attracted to power I am attracted to a playable class that is not weak or too restrictive - I would rather play a druid since it is more playable - has better range of spells , is a pet class which is good & has better combat abilities - the summoner is now a watered down druid to me

@Gorbacz - yes I am angry & so are many others - the paper tests did result in it being nerfed - I actually played the summoner for real in multiple games & did find some changes that needed to be made in the first & second playtest rules both to downgrade the class & upgrade the class - DID YOU ACTUALLY PLAY ONE? your comment of "Like, go out and play one" comes across as childish - dont know if this was your intention or not but that is how it comes across

I dont have the APG yet - I can only go off what changes have been to the APG summoner that have been listed by people & compare those to the final draft playtest - all those tell me that the APG version just got even more nerfs & slight upgrades to the final playtest version which was already too nerfed as it was so why bother playing this version? I am not the only one here who thinks this way - many have already stated that they will only play the class with houserules since it is too nerfed

[Kortz]

Ceefood wrote:

@Kortz - the druid is very similar in concept pet class with buffing abilities - I am not attracted to power I am attracted to a playable class that is not weak or too restrictive - I would rather play a druid since it is more playable - has better range of spells , is a pet class which is good & has better combat abilities - the summoner is now a watered down druid to me

Well, I realize I'm not going to change how anyone thinks about the game, but if the Summoner and Druid are the same concept to you, then you have stripped away a lot of what makes the game interesting.

If it all comes down to numbers in the end, there must be more efficient ways to play than table-top RPGs.

[Gorbacz]

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the APG yet

OK, so you don't even have the book and you're making bold statements about the class based on snippets of information posted by people on the forums. Get the book, play the class, make the judgement.

[Jared Ouimette]

Gorbacz wrote:

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the APG yet

OK, so you don't even have the book and you're making bold statements about the class based on snippets of information posted by people on the forums. Get the book, play the class, make the judgement.

I do, and I scrapped my Summoner and rolled a Druid. Take that for what it's worth.

[Gorbacz]

Jared Ouimette wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the APG yet

OK, so you don't even have the book and you're making bold statements about the class based on snippets of information posted by people on the forums. Get the book, play the class, make the judgement.

I do, and I scrapped my Summoner and rolled a Druid. Take that for what it's worth.

You got to play the class after the APG changes ? Wow. That's some intensive gaming schedule your group has.

[Kryptik]

Gorbacz wrote:

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the APG yet

OK, so you don't even have the book and you're making bold statements about the class based on snippets of information posted by people on the forums. Get the book, play the class, make the judgement.

+1

Making arguments about the summoner is, shall we say, tenuous without even having the APG.

[Jared Ouimette]

Gorbacz wrote:

Jared Ouimette wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the APG yet

OK, so you don't even have the book and you're making bold statements about the class based on snippets of information posted by people on the forums. Get the book, play the class, make the judgement.

I do, and I scrapped my Summoner and rolled a Druid. Take that for what it's worth.

You got to play the class after the APG changes ? Wow. That's some intensive gaming schedule your group has.

I've had the APG for...2 weeks now? Subscriber benefits lol.

[Jared Ouimette]

Kryptik wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the APG yet

OK, so you don't even have the book and you're making bold statements about the class based on snippets of information posted by people on the forums. Get the book, play the class, make the judgement.

+1

Making arguments about the summoner is, shall we say, tenuous without even having the APG.

I have the APG. The class is exactly the same as the final playtest version except for the above changes that people have listed. The spell selection was the only thing that went well for the poor summoner.

So, if you played the final playtest version, now imagine it with the above nerfs.

[Gorbacz]

Jared Ouimette wrote:

Kryptik wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Ceefood wrote:

I dont have the APG yet

OK, so you don't even have the book and you're making bold statements about the class based on snippets of information posted by people on the forums. Get the book, play the class, make the judgement.

+1

Making arguments about the summoner is, shall we say, tenuous without even having the APG.

I have the APG. The class is exactly the same as the final playtest version except for the above changes that people have listed. The spell selection was the only thing that went well for the poor summoner.

So, if you played the final playtest version, now imagine it with the above nerfs.

But you're still going around the main question, which is: how much did you play the final summoner, because looking from you post history you have already declared that it has herpes and is on fire ? That's something you can say about the Truenamer or the Samurai, years after everybody tried to make them work and failed at every attempt.

And no, "I did play the final playtest a lot, and it's the same, only it is nerfed, and the spell list changed, and there are summoner spells now, but it all doesn't matter" is not a valid answer.

[Ruike]

When I was in a group that allowed the new classes during the final playtest the summoner was the only one not trying to be awesome and it pretty much wound up to everyone standing back hiding some distance away until the eidelon had killed nearly everything in each group we fought. I was a witch and it actually felt quite underpowered compared to even the standard classes. We were all level 6 at the time. I don't know what has changed but we pretty much all agreed that the summoner class wouldn't be allowed in our future games which wasn't realy a problem because even the person playing it agreed it was OP without trying. We even joked about switching out some of our characters for eidelon's...not summoners, just their pet.

edit: I will add that I did have fun as a witch roleplaying but when it came to combat it lagged quite far behind par, more about support and roleplay and less able to directly affect the outcomes of encounters.

[Jared Ouimette]

Gorbacz wrote:

But you're still going around the main question, which is: how much did you play the final summoner, because looking from you post history you have already declared that it has herpes and is on fire ? That's something you can say about the Truenamer or the Samurai, years after everybody tried to make them work and failed at every attempt.

And no, "I did play the final playtest a lot, and it's the same, only it is nerfed, and the spell list changed, and there are summoner spells now, but it all doesn't matter" is not a valid answer.

5 times, 6 hours each, with the final version. If you want to dispute how much playtime is necessary with me, so be it. Have YOU played the Summoner yet? Argue with me after you've played it.

There were some people who said the summoner wouldn't be targtted with sleep spells or whatnot, but he has a glowing neon sign on his head, as does his eidolon. I'm pretty sure most classes that can put me to sleep also have the intelligence (and/or knowledge arcana) to put 2 and 2 together and get rid of me fast.

[seekerofshadowlight]

yawn,Gorbacz dude let it go. Its like six people who want their munchkin wondertoy back. It's not a huge deal. The fact they think druid is an exceptionable measure of power lets ya know they would never be happy with a balanced class anyhow.

[Jared Ouimette]

Ruike wrote:

When I was in a group that allowed the new classes during the final playtest the summoner was the only one not trying to be awesome and it pretty much wound up to everyone standing back hiding some distance away until the eidelon had killed nearly everything in each group we fought. I was a witch and it actually felt quite underpowered compared to even the standard classes. We were all level 6 at the time. I don't know what has changed but we pretty much all agreed that the summoner class wouldn't be allowed in our future games which wasn't realy a problem because even the person playing it agreed it was OP without trying. We even joked about switching out some of our characters for eidelon's...not summoners, just their pet.

edit: I will add that I did have fun as a witch roleplaying but when it came to combat it lagged quite far behind par, more about support and roleplay and less able to directly affect the outcomes of encounters.

Was it homebrew or an adventure path? And could you post his build?