Intimidation (demoralize)...

[Ultradan]

Hey folks,

I have a question about the intimidation (demoralize) check... In the book it states that you can use this skill to potentially 'shaken' your opponents for a few rounds.

Question 1) How long does using this skill in this fashion take? Or, if in combat, does just saying your using it means your using it?

Question 2) How many enemies does this include in one roll?

Question 3) What's to stop the players (or me, the DM) from starting EVERY battle with this tactic?

There doesn't seem to be a downside to using DEMORALIZE... Like if you miss your roll (say, by more than 5), can the enemies actually think your LESS of a threat and gain bonuses?

Thanks guys

Ultradan

[Caineach]

1. "Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action." Its listed in the description of intimidate under Action:

2. It affects 1 person per standard action, unless you use the Dazzling Display feat, which allows you to use a full round action to affect every enemy within 30 feet.

3. Nothing. Its a solid tactic, and one my group uses quite a bit. It is a solid debuff. Is their any downside to an enemy failing a will save on Doom spell? Its not even as powerful as that, though you can build characters who can auto-succeed pretty trivially. The downside is that it takes an action that you are not attacking to give an opponent a -2 for 0-3 rounds.

Demoralize's best benefit is probably the -2 to saves, which makes your spellcasters very happy.

[Pinky's Brain]

Ultradan wrote:

Question 2) How many enemies does this include in one roll?

Not specified, it uses plural and singular pretty randomly throughout ... so neither RAW nor RAI is obvious. I'd personally say all opponents within 30 feet.

Quote:

Question 3) What's to stop the players (or me, the DM) from starting EVERY battle with this tactic?

It takes a standard action.

PS. oops, didn't realize there was a feat to specifically make it work on multiple opponents ... guess RAI is clear in context ... although they really should have written it better to make it clear inside the description.

[Caineach]

Pinky's Brain wrote:

Ultradan wrote:

Question 2) How many enemies does this include in one roll?

Not specified, it uses plural and singular pretty randomly throughout ... so neither RAW nor RAI is obvious. I'd personally say all opponents within 30 feet.

Quote:

Question 3) What's to stop the players (or me, the DM) from starting EVERY battle with this tactic?

It takes a standard action.

PS. oops, didn't realize there was a feat to specifically make it work on multiple opponents ... guess RAI is clear in context ... although they really should have written it better to make it clear inside the description.

No. It does specify in the actions. Demoralizing "an opponent" is a standard action. Singular.

[Tholas]

Ultradan wrote:

Hey folks,

I have a question about the intimidation (demoralize) check... In the book it states that you can use this skill to potentially 'shaken' your opponents for a few rounds.

First let me quote the relevant passages of the skill:

PRD wrote:

Intimdate(Cha)
...
Demoralize: You can use this skill to cause your opponents to become shaken for a number of rounds. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, the target is shaken for 1 round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten opponents in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you.

Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of conversation. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.[/]

Try Again: [b]You can attempt to Intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after 1 hour has passed.
...

Ultradan wrote:

Question 1) How long does using this skill in this fashion take? Or, if in combat, does just saying your using it means your using it?

Question 2) How many enemies does this include in one roll?

Using intimidate to demoralize one opponent takes a standard action.

It is possible to intimidate more than one opponent eg. with the Dazzling Display feat as a full-round action or do it as a move action with the Intimidating Glare rage power.

Edit: You can try to demoralize just one enemy per attempt. Yes, there is the argument about some unclear wording in the skill description, I don't think so and it would make the Dazzling Display feat rather obsolete.

Ultradan wrote:

Question 3) What's to stop the players (or me, the DM) from starting EVERY battle with this tactic?

Loosing a standard action just to intimidate one enemy is normally a sub par choice in battle. But boosted with the right feats and abilities it can be a fun and worthwhile option.

Look at the Dazzling Display - Shatter Defense - Deadly Stroke feat chain.

Ultradan wrote:

There doesn't seem to be a downside to using DEMORALIZE... Like if you miss your roll (say, by more than 5), can the enemies actually think your LESS of a threat and gain bonuses?

Well, every intimidation attempt, successful or not, at the same enemy raises the DC by 5. You want to get your Intimdate skill as high as possible to ensure you have a good chance to make your enemy(ies) shaken for as long as possible in with the first attempt.... did I mention that Intimidating Glare is 1d4 rounds + 1 round for every 5

points by which the barbarian's check exceeds the DC? :->

Ninja'ed twice ... ;-)

[Huma]

I came across this post because I had the same question, because when I found the Dazzling Display feat I was confused.

I would say the context implies a demoralize is against one opponent, otherwise Dazzling Display is utterly worthless. I think that's your answer.

But the actual text in the book for Intimidate is NOT as cut and dry as others are saying here. While people continue highlighting the places where it's used in singular form they are ignoring where it's used in plural form. "You can use this skill to cause your opponents to become shaken...You can only threaten opponents in this way if they are within 30 feet."

It is a unique skill along with Bluff and Diplomacy in that common sense would dictate it would work on more than one person at a time. Common sense would tell us that when the big minotaur roars, crumbles a boulder into dust, and says, "Your heads are next!" that the entire party may be affected by the intimidation he is emanating, not just a single target.

Intimidate is a funny skill anyways due to the fact a medium sized guard dog would have a very low intimidate check. But in a real world situation that is exactly what they are used for, to intimidate people into not wanting to break in, etc. In most role-playing games Intimidate checks do not take into account things that would most certainly intimidate many people.

Take a level 30 wizard who is hunched over, only 5 feet tall, and with no ranks in intimidate, but can turn you into dust with a snap of his fingers. The knowledge alone that he has that kind of power would cause most people to treat him with either the utmost respect or stay away from him altogether out of fear.

[Starglim]

Huma wrote:

Intimidate is a funny skill anyways due to the fact a medium sized guard dog would have a very low intimidate check. But in a real world situation that is exactly what they are used for, to intimidate people into not wanting to break in, etc.

That's due to the dog's statistics, not the rules for Intimidate. Nothing stops a dog having a high Charisma, skill ranks and feats to make him intimidating. A designer could even give some breeds racial bonuses.

Huma wrote:

In most role-playing games Intimidate checks do not take into account things that would most certainly intimidate many people.

Take a level 30 wizard who is hunched over, only 5 feet tall, and with no ranks in intimidate, but can turn you into dust with a snap of his fingers. The knowledge alone that he has that kind of power would cause most people to treat him with either the utmost respect or stay away from him altogether out of fear.

NPCs can act rationally based on their own knowledge without any skill checks being rolled. The level 30 wizard just can't make an arrogant young barbarian reconsider when she starts thinking she can take him before he gets a spell off.

[Huma]

Starglim wrote:

That's due to the dog's statistics, not the rules for Intimidate. Nothing stops a dog having a high Charisma, skill ranks and feats to make him intimidating. A designer could even give some breeds racial bonuses.

Almost every single healthy bull terrier, mastiff, doberman, or shepherd has the ability to kill a person or seriously maim them. It has nothing to do with their charisma. It has everything to do with what they can do to a person and common knowledge of what they can do to a person. That's what I'm getting at. Intimidation checks don't take into account the ability of whatever it is that is trying to intimidate you to harm you.

Starglim wrote:

NPCs can act rationally based on their own knowledge without any skill checks being rolled. The level 30 wizard just can't make an arrogant young barbarian reconsider when she starts thinking she can take him before he gets a spell off.

That wizard has no bonus to intimidation based off of his innate power. His intimidation check is just as easy to save against as a level 1 shop keep. The skill is quirky.

[Shar Tahl]

I think the intent when writing it was to include the effects of the area feat and the single target skill. The line about it being a standard action to demoralize an opponent makes it clear. Using Opponents and Opponent in alternating sentences made it unnecessarily confusing in general.

[Yebng]

When used multiple times on the same enemy, RAW states that the effect is "extended", how exactly does that work, does the duration calculated by the additional demoralize check add to the remaining rounds of shaken or does the shaken condition just start over at the new duration? I ask because of the feat Cornugon Smash, which lets me intimidate as a free action anytime I cause damage via power attack, and with multiple attacks a round, that's multiple free, immidiate actions to demoralize. But since the intimidate check gets harder with each successive attempt, the second and third intimidate checks are likely to return fewer rounds of the shaken condition, so the difference between "extend" = add on and "extend" = start over is pretty significant

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Is the Intimidating Glare Rage Power the only way to make a Demoralize check as anything faster than a Standard action? I'm pretty sure in one version of the Star Wars RPG there was a feat that let you do it as a move or swift action, but I would like to know if there is anything similar in Pathfinder.

[Yebng]

Cornugon Smash allows it as a free action but only immediately following a successful power attack

[Chengar Qordath]

Dreadful Carnage also allows an intimidate check of all foes within 30' as a free action, but only after you kill an opponent.

The Blistering Invective spell can also pull off a swift action 30' demoralize if you have access to some method of quickening the spell.

[Ciaran Barnes]

I remember a time every player at our table becoming demoralized at our characters encountering a beholder. It hadn't even acted yet.

[Umbranus]

enforcer lets you demoralize as free action if you deal nonlethal damage with a melee attack.

[Yebng]

I hate to bump myself but anyone know an official definition of "extends" as it relates to multiple demoralizations, game starts in 4 hours