| 17 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
I'm reading the Life Bond ability, where if the Summoner takes lethal damage, it can be transferred to the eidolon point-for-point.
However, as soon as the Summoner hits -1, the eidolon goes away due to the summoner being unconscious.
I can't discern the "window" where this ability ever comes into play.
Is the summoner required to take Die Hard for this class ability to function?
It only functions if the Summoner is reduced from consciousness (ie, 0 or more hp) to -Con in one attack, or if the Summoner is able to remain conscious at negative hit points by any of a variety of means.
I'm reading the Life Bond ability, where if the Summoner takes lethal damage, it can be transferred to the eidolon point-for-point.However, as soon as the Summoner hits -1, the eidolon goes away due to the summoner being unconscious.
I can't discern the "window" where this ability ever comes into play.
Is the summoner required to take Die Hard for this class ability to function?
There is no listed range on the ability, is there anything somewhere that says an ability like this doesnt work across planes? Otherwise it just hits the eidolon back on its home plane.
This ability was given to the summoner before the rule about eidolons disappearing when the summoner goes unconscious, so my guess is that it just wasn't changed to reflect that now you need Diehard or a similar ability to get any use out of it.
It's very very strange to give a class an ability (especially so far in) that provides no benefit without a feat being taken. When I saw how it was worded, it took me a while to wrap my head around it - I tried to figure out how it was useful, but came up empty every time, except for the Diehard feat... which isn't provided by the class itself.
"Damage in excess of that which would kill the summoner is transferred..."
With a little reading, the only real resolution I got was that this ability prevented a 1-shot from positive HP, but I'm sadly certain that it doesn't even work like that.
Per core: "When your character’s current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he’s dead."
Let's say you have a CON of 16 for argument's sake.
Then you're hit for, say, enough to put you at -20.
Life Bond would make your Eidolon soak 4 points of damage, because that's what is in "excess" of what it would take to kill you.
You drop to exactly -16hp.
You pass out, unless you have a specific feat (not provided).
Your Eidolon goes poof, leaving you at exactly -16hp.
You die, because you're at negative your Constitution.
Without Diehard, this feature actually does nothing. You figure as part of this ability, either it would also allow the Eidolon to stay out, or would also give you the Diehard feat to go with it. If it left you at -15hp instead (using the above example) that would be slightly better, but you'd still have a decent chance of dying on the following turn (because you're not stable and Fortitude isn't a good save for you), and that's not how it works anyways.
I'm really sorry if I seem like I'm ranting, but this makes me really sad.
When I first got to see this class, I was very excited and drawn to it.
But to see a class ability, in excess of 10th level, that requires a specific feat to benefit from (a feat with a pre-requisite at that!)... and that the feat isn't even provided by the class, thus dictating you either spend 2 feats or lose this class feature... That's frustrating. :(
I can't help but think this was an oversight. I saw a few posts in my searches (from last month) from Jason Bulmahn in regards to the class, and I agree with him that this class has plenty of potential the way it is, and that people are being too harsh too quick, but he never said anything about Life Bond. I could have wished for 4+ Skill Points or a few more per-day spells, but what I really want most of all... is an official comment (and/or errata) on the Life Bond ability.
My friend's starting up a game next week, and I plan on playing one, but this ability leaves a hulking shadow of confusion in my leveling future.
I really don't want to spend 2 feats to make this ability work, but I also don't want an ability that doesn't work. :(
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
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The whole ability is poorly worded and nigh on useless as is but you are putting to much emphasis on the specific wording. Read in context it is clearly meant to prevent you from taking any damage that would kill you as long as you have your Eidolon available as your health battery.
I think for now we should all just flag this for a FAQ and interpret it as we feel is best until it is resolved.
The APG, the last-minute inconsistencies and the false promises concerning the contents book are a whole factor of disappointment for me as well.
I would just talk to your DM about houseruling it. If I was writing it, I would have it be a 1/day for every 3 levels kind of ability where you can have your eidolon take an attack for you, like the paladin's sacrifice spell. Just limit it to damage and conditions from damage-- so that you can't get hit for 14 and then make the eidolon take the poison, like you could with paladin's sacrifice, but you can make him get hit for 14 and then take the poison as if he was hit by the poisoning creature.
Just adjust the 1/day usage. Since it used to be an "all the time" usage, 1 use ever 3 levels (4 at level 14, 5 at 15) seems about right to where I would put the intended usefulness of the ability before the last-minute changes to the APG kind of botched everything.
The whole ability is poorly worded and nigh on useless as is but you are putting to much emphasis on the specific wording. Read in context it is clearly meant to prevent you from taking any damage that would kill you as long as you have your Eidolon available as your health battery.I think for now we should all just flag this for a FAQ and interpret it as we feel is best until it is resolved.
Man, I always knew I'd lose to the metric system eventually... Heh.
But yeah... when it comes abilities, I tend to rely heavily on RAW. If something seems off, I usually house-rule it until some errata or clarification comes to light, but this time I'm actually a player (WOO-HOO! Finally after so many years DMing... *sniffle*). I've always wanted to play a summoner type character honestly, and was considering a specialist Wizard until I saw this - and the class made me happy. :)
I think the APG is a really neat resource, despite gripes - You'll never please everyone. Someone will always feel left out.
I'd still like clarification on Life Bond (pref from a Developer), but my heart still remains open to this class, and I look forward to playing it.
I think the DM's cool with me making a magic item that allows the Eidolon to remain when I'm out (sleep or other). I might talk to him about Life Bond also granting the Diehard feat. He's pretty easy going - we'll see. :)
(Side Note: I think all the new classes are very interesting, and kinda wanna try each one - except Cavalier - not my style. Gonna make a Book of Vile style Witch for my next NPC Villain... Woe is players)
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I might talk to him about Life Bond also granting the Diehard feat. He's pretty easy going - we'll see. :)
Honestly I think that this would end up being the easiest way to fix the problem with it. "You gain Diehard as a bonus feat, you need not meet the requisites. Diehard remains in effect only as long as your Eidolon is currently summoned."
This ability might take the prize as Paizo's most poorly worded ability:
At 14th level, a summoner’s life becomes linked to his eidolon’s. As long as the eidolon has 1 or more hit points, the summoner cannot be killed. Damage in excess of that which would kill the summoner is instead transferred to the eidolon. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the eidolon is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, all excess damage remains with the summoner, killing him.
Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability. This ability does not affect spells like baleful polymorph, flesh to stone, or imprisonment, or other spells that do not cause actual damage.
"The summoner cannot be killed", contradicted by the "in excess of that which would kill the summoner" by which he is still dead (but has the final choice of damaging his eidolon before it is returned home).
But also the: "As long as the eidolon has 1 or more hit points..." which does make any sense compared to part with "as soon as the eidolon is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to its Constitution".
There is surely a lot of contradictions, and a complete rewrite who be really useful.
The ability can be used as written, but only towards death caused by massive damage (which I have yet to see happen in a game).
IMO to let it function like the original ability (when the eidolon remained) it should be able to take any damage that would send the summoner below 0 hp.
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I like the interpretation above by deathmaster. The summoner falls unconcious, the eidolon disappears to it's home plane, and while there takes the damage the summoner might receive from his attackers on the Material Plane. If his buddies can get him concious again during the battle, he can quickly use his summoning SLAs or other spells to help get out of the nasty situation he finds himself in.
I like the interpretation above by deathmaster. The summoner falls unconcious, the eidolon disappears to it's home plane, and while there takes the damage the summoner might receive from his attackers on the Material Plane. If his buddies can get him concious again during the battle, he can quickly use his summoning SLAs or other spells to help get out of the nasty situation he finds himself in.
Firstly, that raises some questions about the Eidolon on its homeplane. It really doesn't make sense to make rules concerning the eidolon at home. What is it's HP? Eventhough the eidolon might only be an aspect of a certain being, the HP must be assumed to be the same as on the material plane (because we have no other way of knowing what it is). Should we take the hp reduction from life link into account, since they are far from eachother?
More importantly, while it might save the stupid summoner for at battle, in the event that he keeps getting damage, the Eidolon is likely to die. Not die like being send to the homeplane until next. Not dead like the stupid summoner who can get resurrected. Just dead, as in gone for good. And since there is no way of replacing the eidolon, it is a farewell to the main feature of the class.|
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Firstly, that raises some questions about the Eidolon on its homeplane. It really doesn't make sense to make rules concerning the eidolon at home. What is it's HP? Eventhough the eidolon might only be an aspect of a certain being, the HP must be assumed to be the same as on the material plane (because we have no other way of knowing what it is). Should we take the hp reduction from life link into account, since they are far from eachother?
More importantly, while it might save the stupid summoner for at battle, in the event that he keeps getting damage, the Eidolon is likely to die. Not die like being send to the homeplane until next. Not dead like the stupid summoner who can get resurrected. Just dead, as in gone for good. And since there is no way of replacing the eidolon, it is a farewell to the main feature of the class.
Oh, no doubt, it raises questions. The ability is some combination of poorly described, poorly written, or poorly thought through. But I will interpret the eidolon as an interplanar life force battery - probably until it hits 0 hit points and is staggered - for the summoner, even if the summoner falls unconcious. This way the eidolon doesn't die, the ability isn't pointless, and there's not a lot of work required for me as a DM or the player.
I like the interpretation above by deathmaster. The summoner falls unconcious, the eidolon disappears to it's home plane, and while there takes the damage the summoner might receive from his attackers on the Material Plane. If his buddies can get him concious again during the battle, he can quickly use his summoning SLAs or other spells to help get out of the nasty situation he finds himself in.Firstly, that raises some questions about the Eidolon on its homeplane. It really doesn't make sense to make rules concerning the eidolon at home. What is it's HP?
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned...The eidolon does not heal naturally.
Should we take the hp reduction from life link into account, since they are far from eachother?
While it doesn't say it, I think it is safe to assume that you have to be on the same plane of existence for the distance damage to apply.
More importantly, while it might save the stupid summoner for at battle, in the event that he keeps getting damage, the Eidolon is likely to die. Not die like being send to the homeplane until next. Not dead like the stupid summoner who can get resurrected. Just dead, as in gone for good. And since there is no way of replacing the eidolon, it is a farewell to the main feature of the class.
The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns (sent back to its home plane -Odraude) with half its normal hit points.
Pretty much, the eidolon isn't an animal companion. He cannot die and is simply sent back to his home plane and cannot be resummoned for the duration of the day.
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The OP doesn't play PFS.
Yep, that's true. But Adam / his GM can make whatever ruling as they please. It's a nuisance to figure out what the power does, but it's doable.
The more serious issue, how to adjudicate a life-saving -- or, as Rageling observes, not life-saving -- power consistently with other judges in an OP environment, won't arise.
Yes, because having an ability that does absolutely nothing as written, despite claiming to protect the character from death, isn't a serious problem.
/sarcasm
Well, my GM was kind enough to let me swap in Die Hard to make up for these last minute rules changes, so it's not a looming question.
I'm still curious how the author intends for it to be used during play.
Well, my GM was kind enough to let me swap in Die Hard to make up for these last minute rules changes, so it's not a looming question.
I'm still curious how the author intends for it to be used during play.
The author intended it to save the summoner when he lays there unconscious.
Then there were changes and they were not thought through. It's hardly the only glaring error this book has.
I hope it was a chain of unfortunate events that led to this and not the start of a steady decline in quality.