Now that I've got your attention...
When we started Pathfinder several years ago, one thing that folks really really wanted us to do was to provide statistics for our various iconic characters. We've been doing that every month since the first Pathfinder module and the first Adventure Path as a result, using the last page of every module or pages 90–91 of every Pathfinder AP for that very reason.
What do folks think about us no longer doing this? Instead, the pages currently taken up by pregenerated iconics would be absorbed into the body of each book (likely adding a page or two of content to the adventure as a general rule). Stats for Merisiel and Sajan and Lini are already all over the place, and as we're gearing up for our EIGHTH adventure path, I'm starting to wonder if the usefulness of those pages has outstayed its welcome.
So... let me know! Would removing the pregenerated characters from our Adventure Paths and modules break your heart? Would replacing these pages with more precious words of adventure fill you with joy? Let us know!
Just noticing this thread for the first time! Haven't read the rest of the thread yet. But I would welcome this change. I don't see my players ever using these PCs. Even in the event that we'd need a PC on the spot (one player's PC died, a new player arrives, etc.) we would just pull out a stat block or work with incomplete stats for a PC. All I've used them for at this point is as a mental gauge to compare them to the encounters in the adventure they are published in.
I would rather not see them go away completely however. They are good to use as models for how the designers see a typical PC of a given level would be built. I can think of two possibilities of how I'd like to see them:
1) on the Paizo website that you could download as a PDF (free or to be purchased)
2) published in a book dedicated to PCs and NPCs (similar to the Pathfinder Cronicles NPC guide). I hope you decide to publish more of these types of books by the way. Making NPC stat blocks is by far the most time consuming part of GM preparation, and I can't see how you could EVER publish too many NPC stat blocks. The NPC Guide and the generic stat blocks in the Game Mastery Guide are so invaluable, but they're still just scratching the surface! (Case in point… my players rescued a merchant, his wife, and his two caravan guards this past weekend. Two of the players' PCs ended up hiring the guards and I just photocopied two copies of the foot soldier stat block and handed it to them… about a minute and a half of work!)
As long as they're available online for download somewhere, take 'em out.
This +1.
I'd like to see a free download of the Iconics at various level-progressions. That way they're readily available and can be used as desired.
So long as the iconics continue to be utilized in PF art and I can access the pre-gens online, I support this decision.
Idea: Iconics (lvl 1) in the first AP (if not removed at all), NPCs from the next.
This way, stats for major NPCs can be printed at the back (with a reference in the AP), removing priceless word space for use in the AP itself; NPC stat block: BIG chunk of words that can now be devoted to setting or extra adventure = WIN!
My 2+ cents
Ugh, please don't print major NPC stats in the back. Having to flip back and forth for the spriggan stats during Realm of the Fellnight Queen was the true bane of my existence.
I do like how the Iconics show that a group of of unoptimized, 15 point buy characters can get through an AP without too many issues.
I'm not sure what you mean here. A criticism I see popping up more often than not is that it's the exact opposite - that the iconics pretty much don't have a chance in the APs they're presented in.
Use the two pages for other material.
And use all 18 iconics for the art! :)
Take them out but do a "dirty" copy and paste of the various levels and mount it somewhere for download. The end-user needs to reformat that information anyway.
--Ray.
I do like how the Iconics show that a group of of unoptimized, 15 point buy characters can get through an AP without too many issues.I'm not sure what you mean here. A criticism I see popping up more often than not is that it's the exact opposite - that the iconics pretty much don't have a chance in the APs they're presented in.
And an equal # of posts saying those claims are overblown. The point-buy debate is one of personal tastes. For those who want higher-spend, that's cool, but I like that the APs & modules take the middle-ground with regards to pre-gen PCs & XP progression.
It's always easier to scale up than it is to scale back.
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Might I make a suggestion (and if someone has already suggested this, then never-mind)? For those wanting the Iconics posted "somewhere" how about a PDF only book similar to...Well, that other Company's book...Enemies and Allies where the Iconics' stats (and what not) are featured at levels as per the APs (one, four, seven, ten, thirteen, and fifteen) or with an "every four" progression (one, four, eight, twelve, sixteen, and twenty). You could include ALL iconics this way (Core Rules, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and what not).Yeah I'd buy that!
I agree with making the iconic pregens a free PDF or maybe a really cheap one.
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I happen to like the Iconics.
I have used them in the past, if someone is just visiting the game for the evening, it gives them something to play with. It also gives me a baseline to work with. Again they are useful in PFS, as something can use to join a game, without going through all the trouble of making a character.
Perhaps statting the pregens, there are 20 now? so this would be 200 sets of stats?
Perhaps their first level stats could be detailed with thier level progressions. I am sure there are plenty of people on the boards who would like to stat out an Iconic's progression from 1 to 20
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There are some pregenerated iconics right here.
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There are some pregenerated iconics right here.
Could the other iconic characters be done in the same fashion? And maybe at level 11 as well?
I am in favor of the removal so long as they are available for download and each one is fleshed out in the same manner as the link above.
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There are some pregenerated iconics right here.Could the other iconic characters be done in the same fashion? And maybe at level 11 as well?
I am in favor of the removal so long as they are available for download and each one is fleshed out in the same manner as the link above.
Yeah, let's give the "Paizo fails at design, look how they build Fighters OLOLOLOLOL!!!!" folks more bones to chew on. ;-)
If you're going to remove them from the website, give us fair warning. I'd like the HTML with all of their pictures and backstories.
Yeah, let's give the "Paizo fails at design, look how they build Fighters OLOLOLOLOL!!!!" folks more bones to chew on. ;-)There are some pregenerated iconics right here.Could the other iconic characters be done in the same fashion? And maybe at level 11 as well?
I am in favor of the removal so long as they are available for download and each one is fleshed out in the same manner as the link above.
They did recently go from 15 to 20 point buy, and are PFS legal...and no matter how a character is built, somebody's not going to like it. :P
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Might I make a suggestion (and if someone has already suggested this, then never-mind)? For those wanting the Iconics posted "somewhere" how about a PDF only book similar to...Well, that other Company's book...Enemies and Allies where the Iconics' stats (and what not) are featured at levels as per the APs (one, four, seven, ten, thirteen, and fifteen) or with an "every four" progression (one, four, eight, twelve, sixteen, and twenty). You could include ALL iconics this way (Core Rules, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and what not).Yeah I'd buy that!
There are some pregenerated iconics right here.Could the other iconic characters be done in the same fashion? And maybe at level 11 as well?
I am in favor of the removal so long as they are available for download and each one is fleshed out in the same manner as the link above.
I agree to all of that. ANd if it does have some sort of fee, include the "Meet the Iconics" from the Paizo Blog before or after each entry. I think that would make for a great PDF product, I would even pay for it (no more than a few bucks, though)
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stuffCongratulations, Necromancer apprentice! You have successfully re-animated a year-dead thread. You have leveled up and earned the title of "Dread Thread Necromancer".
:::Accepts reward::: You like me! You really really like me!I like to thank my Master Necromancer for all his patience and hard work in teaching me the art...
Seriously though I misread the date and thought it said July 2011 not July 2010. My bad! I didn't mean to put itching powder in anyone's Jockey shorts!
James, you're missing an easy sale here.
All you need is a list stating what iconic is printed where.
Then, every AP can be printed with an additional sentence saying "We ran this with the following four iconics".
Sell more back issues (good for you), and have more room in each mod (good for us).
You could easily slap together a PDF - Pathfinder iconics; and charge a few dollars for it. People would buy that too, just to have it all in one place. It's also a set of instant stat blocks for anyone running a game (Hmm, four 7th level Amiris, and we're done).
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Create a section on YOUR SRD site for the pregens, and offload the work to the fanbase. Create a competition for say a pregen of each at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the entry to be a complete set of one or more of iconics from a list. The winners to get say a prize of free PDF book or some suitable chatchka which dosen't cost much to make but would give oodles of satisfaction.
They's explained numerous times that having contests drains far more of their time for the judging process than simply doing whatever themselves would take. Why do you think the RPG Superstar is judged by mosly non-Paizo people? If it was all Paizo judging it, the contest would largely shut the company down for a couple of months every year.
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stuffThey's explained numerous times that having contests drains far more of their time for the judging process than simply doing whatever themselves would take. Why do you think the RPG Superstar is judged by mosly non-Paizo people? If it was all Paizo judging it, the contest would largely shut the company down for a couple of months every year.
On this one I will have to agree with Kthulhu. Incidentally, Kthulhu,are you the same "Kthulhu" on the Kenzer and Co. website that had an avatar of a Hello Kitty/Cthulhu hybrid? If so then yes I am the same "Kevida" who had R. Lee Ermey as my avatar how have you been?
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There are some pregenerated iconics right here.
You see? Something like this for the other iconics (advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Magic) would be great at this location, too.
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Yeah, let's give the "Paizo fails at design, look how they build Fighters OLOLOLOLOL!!!!" folks more bones to chew on. ;-)There are some pregenerated iconics right here.Could the other iconic characters be done in the same fashion? And maybe at level 11 as well?
I am in favor of the removal so long as they are available for download and each one is fleshed out in the same manner as the link above.
To those folks I say, "If you don't like the way Valeros (or anyone else) is made, then make up your own dag-gum character!"*
*This is the censored version of what I'd say.
There are some pregenerated iconics right here.You see? Something like this for the other iconics (advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Magic) would be great at this location, too.
Mark Moreland has posted over in the PFS forum that the pregens of the APG character classes are currently being reworked to be like the new Core Book pregens, will be PFS legal, and will be available eventually. Though, as they were before, they will only come as 1st, 4th, and 7th level, since those are the only levels you can use pregens in PFS play.
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Ok, so the first thing I thought that could go in their place was a Mad magazine fold in. But chances are that no one wants to folder up their AP so maybe not so much.
I'd also like to see some more art to show players.
Make it something that showcases what's in the adventure. Let me open to the page and unveil the WOW factor of the adventure. Don't put in the iconics into it. Just put scenery and perhaps the bad guys. I want something that the players could imagine their characters in.
The Iconics are great for every other picture, just put out one that showcases the adventure.
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Now that I've got your attention...
When we started Pathfinder several years ago, one thing that folks really really wanted us to do was to provide statistics for our various iconic characters. We've been doing that every month since the first Pathfinder module and the first Adventure Path as a result, using the last page of every module or pages 90–91 of every Pathfinder AP for that very reason.
What do folks think about us no longer doing this? Instead, the pages currently taken up by pregenerated iconics would be absorbed into the body of each book (likely adding a page or two of content to the adventure as a general rule). Stats for Merisiel and Sajan and Lini are already all over the place, and as we're gearing up for our EIGHTH adventure path, I'm starting to wonder if the usefulness of those pages has outstayed its welcome.
So... let me know! Would removing the pregenerated characters from our Adventure Paths and modules break your heart? Would replacing these pages with more precious words of adventure fill you with joy? Let us know!
It would be most welcomed to see 1-2 pages of 1" or other size pawns for all the creatures in the book in place of the iconics, with iconic available online for quick download/print as needed. Circular pawns, not square, please. Thank you!
-Pax|
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Mark Moreland has posted over in the PFS forum that the pregens of the APG character classes are currently being reworked to be like the new Core Book pregens, will be PFS legal, and will be available eventually. Though, as they were before, they will only come as 1st, 4th, and 7th level, since those are the only levels you can use pregens in PFS play.There are some pregenerated iconics right here.You see? Something like this for the other iconics (advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Magic) would be great at this location, too.
Okay that's cool! I personally would love to see how Seltyiel is worked out as a Magus. He's my favorite "tortured soul" type of character.
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but Legendary Games by Clark Peterson, famed co-owner of Necromancer games started a new company and they will be doing AP plug-ins including pregens for each AP. Gothic horror ones are up first but I am sure Jade Regent ones will be coming out soon. You can read more here.
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but Legendary Games by Clark Peterson, famed co-owner of Necromancer games started a new company and they will be doing AP plug-ins including pregens for each AP. Gothic horror ones are up first but I am sure Jade Regent ones will be coming out soon. You can read more here.
Thank you for that! :-)
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I support ditching the pregens and replacing them with more lovely words and art.What the Mantis Man said, but I would like to see a free download available with their stats and backstory.
Agreed or at least a reasonably priced PDF. The iconics make for good allies and rivals.
Though instead of stating them 1-20, Make it easy on yourself and jus thit the bigger levels
1, 3, 7, 12, 15, 18, and 20.
That hit's most power arcs I've hit in the game. Though I'm interested to see which of the iconics would multiclass or PRC. My personal opinion would be just to let them single class, but they aren't my characters.
My vote is for more pages dedicated for the adventure!
I will say that the best thing included in the adventures so far was the large section of NPC's in the RotRL book 1 and it wasn't the huge of a section, but it made the adventure come alive.
Now I can make my own pregens, I just made 50 using the GameMastery book for my run of Kingmaker, but the ones tailored to the adventure were nice including all the red herrings and flavorful npc's with their mystery and dramatic pasts.
Heck, dedicating more room to plot twists and dm homespun sidetrecks are awesome!