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Excellent guide, Ogre, thanks for putting it up. Just one request, might you put up suggestions for a Mr. Hyde Grappler/Tripper? I suspect he could be very good at it, with Feral Mutagen, impressive reach (Fluid Form, Enlarge Person, Lunge, etc.), and impressive Strength for CMB. It would take a lot of feats, in all likelihood (Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip (not necessary, but beneficial), and Lunge), but Mr. Hyde would be able to do quite a bit of damage and be quite capable of locking down opponents.
Thanks Johnny. Is there anything in particular about the alchemist that you think makes them particularly good at grappling? I know they have access to enlarge and giant form at high levels but beyond that and the master Chymst mutagen power I'm not really seeing them as particularly great at it. I'll take a look at it.
Then maybe my expectations are a bit high for grapplers right now, I just did some playing with a summoner and the eidolon can get large sized and grab at a fairly low level an they only get better.
Is it possible to avoid the smoke from a bomb using Precise Bomb?
It says "splash damage" so I'm thinking that Stink bomb would effect everyone within the smoke??
The way I understand it precise bomb only applies to splash weapon damage not any spell like effects the bomb might do.
Hmmm, so the Cleric can pick out targets within a burst not to be effected and still effect others behind them, but the Alchemist can't create pockets of non-smoke...
Hmmm, so the Cleric can pick out targets within a burst not to be effected and still effect others behind them, but the Alchemist can't create pockets of non-smoke...
Can you clarify? I'm not sure how a cleric could make pockets of non-mist in an Obscuring Mist spell, for instance.
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Can you clarify? I'm not sure how a cleric could make pockets of non-mist in an Obscuring Mist spell, for instance.Hmmm, so the Cleric can pick out targets within a burst not to be effected and still effect others behind them, but the Alchemist can't create pockets of non-smoke...
He's probably either talking about selective channeling (the feat that allows clerics to not affect a number of targets in their channel energy) or selective spell (which allows a caster to also not affect a number of targets of that spell.)
If you'd like to hear an official ruling on the selective that could be reasonably used for the precise bomb too...
The Selective Spell feat as written allows you to selectively ignore spells like black tentacles and antimagic field. Is that the intent of the feat?
No, it only affects instantaneous-duration spells. The APG errata will clarify this. (SKR 10/08/10)
So, since a bomb would normally be an instantaneous effect like fireball, and the smoke hangs around for at least a round (sickening smoke is one round) you could extrapolate that the precise wouldn't work with the smoke effect. Also, I'm sure that I've seen one of the designers mentioning this exact same thing about the smoke bombs, but my search-fu is weak this morning...
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The way I understand it precise bomb only applies to splash weapon damage not any spell like effects the bomb might do.Hmmm, so the Cleric can pick out targets within a burst not to be effected and still effect others behind them, but the Alchemist can't create pockets of non-smoke...
I'm not sure why this is relevant...
You could similarly ask why slow affects specific creatures you select while confusion affects everyone in the area.
Effects of different abilities, spells, powers are different throughout the game, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes not so much. This particular case isn't any weirder than a number of others.
The way I understand it precise bomb only applies to splash weapon damage not any spell like effects the bomb might do.Hmmm, so the Cleric can pick out targets within a burst not to be effected and still effect others behind them, but the Alchemist can't create pockets of non-smoke...I'm not sure why this is relevant...
Because, for a Feat, I'd expect a little more than the ability to "save" a limited number of friends from a Reflex save for half splash damage!
The Cleric's Selective Channelling Feat is way better, imo.
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The way I understand it precise bomb only applies to splash weapon damage not any spell like effects the bomb might do.Hmmm, so the Cleric can pick out targets within a burst not to be effected and still effect others behind them, but the Alchemist can't create pockets of non-smoke...I'm not sure why this is relevant...
Because, for a Feat, I'd expect a little more than the ability to "save" a limited number of friends from a Reflex save for half splash damage!
The Cleric's Selective Channelling Feat is way better, imo.
I disagree.
I would agree if it were saving your friends from one save 4-5 times a day as selective channeling does, but at 10th level an alchemist is throwing 19 bombs a day. Also, as early as 8th level the alchemist is throwing 3-4 bombs per round. Assuming you are comparing to negative energy channeling, the channeling damage is higher per shot but much lower per round.
The way I understand it precise bomb only applies to splash weapon damage not any spell like effects the bomb might do.Hmmm, so the Cleric can pick out targets within a burst not to be effected and still effect others behind them, but the Alchemist can't create pockets of non-smoke...I'm not sure why this is relevant...
Because, for a Feat, I'd expect a little more than the ability to "save" a limited number of friends from a Reflex save for half splash damage!
The Cleric's Selective Channelling Feat is way better, imo.
I disagree.
I would agree if it were saving your friends from one save 4-5 times a day as selective channeling does, but at 10th level an alchemist is throwing 19 bombs a day. Also, as early as 8th level the alchemist is throwing 3-4 bombs per round. Assuming you are comparing to negative energy channeling, the channeling damage is higher per shot but much lower per round.
You're quite right for regular damage bombs but if you're going to focus on the smoke bombs it's not all that impressive.
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I don't read guides, (call me stubborn) I just wanted to congratulate you on putting up one that so far seems rather well received.
Since you and I have been talking to each other on the old wizard boards since before the release of 4th ed, I've always considered you an online friend and it's nice to see your system mastery helping out on this site. Now if these boards were as nice to format on as the old WotC boards we could bring back the drunk DM competitions.
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I don't read guides, (call me stubborn) I just wanted to congratulate you on putting up one that so far seems rather well received.
Since you and I have been talking to each other on the old wizard boards since before the release of 4th ed, I've always considered you an online friend and it's nice to see your system mastery helping out on this site. Now if these boards were as nice to format on as the old WotC boards we could bring back the drunk DM competitions.
Thanks, I consider you a solid online buddy also.
I wouldn't mind doing the Drunk DM competition or for that matter a GM's contest here on Paizo. I don't see the forums as being a huge hurdle. My problem is I am not a very systemic person and would likely run it for one or two revs then wouldn't follow through. I would certainly help you promote it and would volunteer to judge and help with ideas.
I could also volunteer my blog up for contestants to post their entries in. It has a fairly user friendly editing screen so people could do some formatting. We could announce the contest here and just post links to the entries...
I'm game to try it if you want to give it a run.
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You're quite right for regular damage bombs but if you're going to focus on the smoke bombs it's not all that impressive.
Well smoke bombs are awesome... but even a dedicated smoker is likely launching stink bombs and poison bombs one bomb out of four and will very likely be using lots of bombs with splash damage.
In any case, that's not what you said. You made a more general complaint that it wasn't as good as selective channeling.
Dear Ogre,
This is awesome! I am a no0b who happens to be helping an even no0ber friend build an Alchemist (Strangelob model) right now! I'm excited to see that so many of my suggestions for her weren't completely wrong-headed, but I also gained many new insights from your guide. Like, I hadn't thought about Haste depleting my friend's bombs faster than a bomb/round.
My friend's character will be joining us at Level Six, which means she'll be able to choose a fair few of her feats at once. I had been thinking that despite the ideally-aligned bonuses, my friend ought to choose Human over Elf (setting aside any role-playing preferences which would, of course, take precedence), because she might want that fourth feat *just that badly.*
I had been thinking: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Extra Revelation and Quick Draw. (Precise shot is probably more important in our group than in some others, because the melee players don't like to strategize around ranged combat or casters, and missing with a splash weapon could be potentially punishing).
But I just looked and Quick Draw is said not to work for 'Alchemical Items,' anyway. How can my friend make multiple attacks per round if she must expend a move action to retrieve each bomb? (Even from a Handy Haversack?)
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When you take fast bomb at 8th level you can lob bombs as an attack action, including the act of drawing it. If you chase around a bit it's in the very well hidden FAQ that talks about it.
Quick draw would be interesting for mixing bombs and thrown weapons or for drawing a bow in a hurry... or throwing a bomb and stepping in to stab :D
Edit: And I'm glad you enjoyed it.
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I don't read guides, (call me stubborn) I just wanted to congratulate you on putting up one that so far seems rather well received.
Since you and I have been talking to each other on the old wizard boards since before the release of 4th ed, I've always considered you an online friend and it's nice to see your system mastery helping out on this site. Now if these boards were as nice to format on as the old WotC boards we could bring back the drunk DM competitions.
Thanks, I consider you a solid online buddy also.
I wouldn't mind doing the Drunk DM competition or for that matter a GM's contest here on Paizo. I don't see the forums as being a huge hurdle. My problem is I am not a very systemic person and would likely run it for one or two revs then wouldn't follow through. I would certainly help you promote it and would volunteer to judge and help with ideas.
I could also volunteer my blog up for contestants to post their entries in. It has a fairly user friendly editing screen so people could do some formatting. We could announce the contest here and just post links to the entries...
I'm game to try it if you want to give it a run.
Thats not a bad idea, send me an e-mail at lastknightleft at hot mail dot com and we'll talk about doing it.
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This post should probably go on the home-brew forum and I'll likely put it there but I wanted to give you guys first preview.
Alchemist and Poisoner Feats and Discoveries.
I was thinking about putting together something a bit longer as a PDF published product but not sure it's worth the effort. Let me know what you think.
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This post should probably go on the home-brew forum and I'll likely put it there but I wanted to give you guys first preview.
Alchemist and Poisoner Feats and Discoveries.
I was thinking about putting together something a bit longer as a PDF published product but not sure it's worth the effort. Let me know what you think.
Looks like some interesting stuff. I had a player in the Kingmaker campaign im running want to extract poisons from dead creatures, and I like how you went about handling that. Ill have to incorporate that in.
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Looks like some interesting stuff. I had a player in the Kingmaker campaign im running want to extract poisons from dead creatures, and I like how you went about handling that. Ill have to incorporate that in.This post should probably go on the home-brew forum and I'll likely put it there but I wanted to give you guys first preview.
Alchemist and Poisoner Feats and Discoveries.
I was thinking about putting together something a bit longer as a PDF published product but not sure it's worth the effort. Let me know what you think.
Yeah, as soon as my wife found out her alchemist gets poison use that's the first question she asked. Glad you like it.
Real basic question here.
with Feral Mutagen you get claw, claw, bite. all are primary nat weapons.
Do I get full strength to each? 1 1/2?
also how do they work with PA?
Thanks for the help.
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Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Since they are multiple primary attacks and you use your normal full strength modifier on all attacks, you can look at the link above for more details, you might have to scroll up a touch to see the whole thing.
Power attack follows strength bonus so you use the normal -1/ +2 version of PA:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls.
Makes Power Attack a great feat for ferals.
Thanks for that, and thanks for the link.
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I was suggested to reask this question over here, so here it goes. . .
<So what happens when an Alchemist throws a Bomb at a character (direct hit) that has the Deflect Arred and/or Snatch Arrows Feat.
Deflect Arrows says "when you wuld normally be hit by an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you may take no damage from it", but at the end also adds that "ranged attacks generated by natural weapons or spell effects can't be deflected"?
Bombs use "magical reserves" but unlike Infusions do not use spells and do count as weapons, (though it specifies they become inert when used by anyone else). They are treated as Splash weapons on page 202 of the Core book. Do they impact before the Monk can return fire or does the Snatch Arrows Feat allow them to "attack" with it still using the Alchemist's attack?>
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So one of the comments about the guide was folks were interested in seeing some possible builds. Here is my draft of the melee build I was thinking of dropping in there. I might have pushed things a bit in some areas, curious what folks think. I see two potential problems right off, the relatively low INT and the fact that he's pretty fragile.
TEEF CR 1/2
Male Half-Orc Alchemist 1
CG Medium humanoid (orc, human)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision (60 ft.), Perception +4,
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DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 13 (+1 Dex, +3 Studded Leather)
hp 13 (1d8)+2
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1 (+3 versus charm and compulsion)
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OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee greataxe (two handed) +4 1d12+6/x3, bite -1 (1d4+2)
Melee club +4 (1d6+4), bite -1 (1d4+2)
Ranged club (thrown) +1 (1d6+4)
Ranged bomb +2(touch) (1d6+2)
With Strength Extract
Melee greataxe (two handed) +6 1d12+9/x3, bite +1 (1d4+3)
Prepared Spells
Alchemist (CL 1st) 2 First Level Extracts:
1st - cure light wounds (DC 13), shield (DC 13)
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STATISTICS
Str 19(23), Dex 12, Con 12, Int 15(13), Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB +4(6); CMD 15(17)
Feats Additional Traits
Traits Tusked (Racial), Bully (Social), Accelerated Drinker (Combat), Birthmark (Faith)
Skills Craft (Alchemy) +6, Disable Device +4, Intimidate +5(+7), Knowledge (Nature) +6, Perception +4, Spellcraft +6, Swim +3
Racial Traits Intimidating, Sacred Tattoo, Weapon Familiarity
Possessions club (x5); club (large); greataxe; peasant's outfit; studded leather;
This is a bit of an experiment, I've built him up to be a melee thug from the ground up but he likely has some issues.
Bully gives him Intimidate as a class skill and a +1 bonus in intimidate. Sacred Tattoo Tattoos gets him +1 luck bonus on all saving throws. Ferocity can occasionally be super good but I'm gambling that the extra +1 to saves will help, particularly since the will save is weak.
Going forward he would likely take (alternative discoveries and feats by level):
Switch to Master Chmst at 9th level
Not sure where I'm going with this quite yet. I am half thinking Toughness at first level but I like the traits I picked. I figure he's going to be enlarged a lot, carrying a potion of enlarge person. His mutagen, plus large size gives him a +6 on Intimidate. Another possibility is improved unarmed strike and enforcer...
This is why I hate sample builds.
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Added a bunch of updates to Mr. Hyde's guide.
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Change Log:
- Added a bunch of support for Master Chymst, essentially merging the Advanced Mutagens into the Discoveries and giving reviews on each of them (sadly there aren't a lot of great Advanced Mutagens, hopefully Ultimate Magic will fix this).
- Added base build recommendations for all the recommended races.
- Consolidating a lot of options and eliminated or abbreviated a lot of sub-optimal choices to make the guide a bit more concise.
- Added a tiny bit more support for additional sources.
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Does an alchemist's inferno bomb, poison bomb, smoke bomb, or stink bomb cause bomb damage in addition to the special effect listed for those discoveries?
Yes. For example, a smoke bomb deals bomb damage and creates an area of smoke.?Sean K Reynolds (03/15/11)
Woot! Finally one of my alchemist questions answered, and its how I've been playing it too. :D
Now for them to answer the Explosive bomb question and whether the line about increasing splash area applies to all bombs...
It doesn't, note it is marked with an asterisk there for making it incompatible with most of the area effects. Unless you are commenting that it might be a separate effect?
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Does an alchemist's inferno bomb, poison bomb, smoke bomb, or stink bomb cause bomb damage in addition to the special effect listed for those discoveries?
Yes. For example, a smoke bomb deals bomb damage and creates an area of smoke.?Sean K Reynolds (03/15/11)
Woot! Finally one of my alchemist questions answered, and its how I've been playing it too. :D
Now for them to answer the Explosive bomb question and whether the line about increasing splash area applies to all bombs...
Wow, nice, glad you posted this. That's more or less how I read things but good to see a confirmation.
Requesting an UM update.
=^.^=
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My "bird's eye" perspective of Ultimate Magic.
I might post some more comments later specifically on the two main builds and possibly highlighting a third vivisectionist based build.
My "bird's eye" perspective of Ultimate Magic.
I might post some more comments later specifically on the two main builds and possibly highlighting a third vivisectionist based build.
That was fast Oo.
Thanks:)|
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My "bird's eye" perspective of Ultimate Magic.
I might post some more comments later specifically on the two main builds and possibly highlighting a third vivisectionist based build.
That was fast Oo.
Thanks:)
I'd actually already written it and was thinking about chasing this thread up to post it so you saved me some effort searching.
My "bird's eye" perspective of Ultimate Magic.
I might post some more comments later specifically on the two main builds and possibly highlighting a third vivisectionist based build.
I recall that you replied to a post of mine about a weak ago saying you had a list of status-giving poisons that were more useful in combat, and that you were going to post them to these forums or to your website.
You also told me to bug you in a week if I hadn't seen 'em. :)
On a UM note, while this may be obvious, I'd like to point out an alternative Hyde build, where you focus on buffing intimidate and grab Dazzling Display / Shatter Defenses. This could greatly increase the damage of a Hyde type, since they would get Sneak Attack damage on all but the first attack. This also will debuff enemies around you, getting a little more bang for your buck.
Plus, all your attacks are at full BAB, so the subsequent sneak attacks won't hit less.
Problem is that he's already pretty feat strapped.
First, thanks for the guide. Very nice.
A quick question:
You state:
Amplify Elixer – Empower or extend all potions or extracts you manage to suck down over a duration. Looks like you will mostly be extending but there are a few spells you can empower. Gets more useful at higher levels
The spell states potion or elixiers, not extracts. I don't really see a lot of use out of this spell unless it helps extracts. It is a lot of prep to use amplifit elixer and alchemical allocation.
I guess I need to be convinced more that this is rated a blue. What are some good combos?
A few more questions. I ask as it seems that you are the resident expert on Alchemists!
I ask these as I just made up my first alchemist, an 8th level preservationist.
Does the standard action to use an extract supercede a spells casting time (i.e. lesser restoration, enlarge person, summon nature's ally)?
Is using an extract somatic only (i.e. over rules the spells components)? Thus you can be silenced and use your extracts?
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Quick question, as I'm working on an alchemist baddy for my Saturday game, does the alchemist's bomb count as a special attack (like channel negative/positive energy, sneak attack) for the purpose of Ability Focus?
Does anyone have any thoughts on making an alchemist with Android for the race?
Also, I really like the new archtype in the Dungeoneer's Handbook, it lets you become a trapfinder.
Your work has definitely shown me alot of the options for the class. I've been going vivisectionist/internal alchemist mix, but I'm definitely going bomb route next time, thanks to this guide.
Dennis, what is your opinion on poison options for an Alchemist in PFS?
I am building an Alchemist for Society, but I am not sure I want to dedicate any discoveries towards using poison. It's not that I don't want to use it, I really would like to play a character who uses poison, but they have nerfed a majority of the better poisons, so I am not sure if it's worth it.
But what is your opinion, do you think it's viable?
Yes, that was pretty much my thoughts as well. It’s really a shame, because there enough poisons in the various books, if they were legal, I think would make using poison viable.
Thanks.