NOTE: The Drunken Brute barbarian variant synergizes nicely with the alchemist, since he can drink a potion as a move action without provoking an AoO!
with handy haversack he also draws without AoO
with vital strike he has spare move actions for this purpose, although you'd probably go for a high base die weapon over ferral mutagen if taking the vital chain.
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It's also worth mentioning that armor spikes are martial weapons and wouldn't be eligible for using with brutality if you decided to go into master Chymst.
So level 20...
My assumption is you would have access to giant form build based on that assumption. Trolls (you will almost certainly be a troll) have 2 claws a bite, and rend. So it would be more or less the same as what Hogarth posted but with the possibility of a 4th attack.
For the sake of discussion strength at 20th level with giant form and true mutagen:
Base 18, +8 Size, +6 enhancement, +8 True Mutagen
My conservative guess of total strength is 40.
It's also worth mentioning that armor spikes are martial weapons and wouldn't be eligible for using with brutality if you decided to go into master Chymst.
So level 20...
My assumption is you would have access to giant form build based on that assumption. Trolls (you will almost certainly be a troll) have 2 claws a bite, and rend. So it would be more or less the same as what Hogarth posted but with the possibility of a 4th attack.
For the sake of discussion strength at 20th level with giant form and true mutagen:
Base 18, +8 Size, +6 enhancement, +8 True Mutagen
My conservative guess of total strength is 40.
The only technicality with that is Troll isn't a Huge creature and thus you'd need to pick Cloud Giant or Storm Giant instead.
I only mention it beucase it does specifically say in the Giant Form II entry
This spell functions as giant form I except that it also allows you to assume the form of any Huge creature of the giant subtype (cloud giant and storm giant are the only core Huge creatures with giant subtype).
unless of course you houserule a Huge Troll
oh and you forgot to add another 4 points from bonus atributes every 4th level so 44 Strength assuming you were stacking into Strength
It's also worth mentioning that armor spikes are martial weapons and wouldn't be eligible for using with brutality if you decided to go into master Chymst.
True. You could use morningstar/claw/bite, I suppose (but then you wouldn't be able to rend as a troll).
An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
With that last line can an alchemist qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor?
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With that last line can an alchemist qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor?
An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Unfortunately not. Since the alchemist isn't a caster, he technically doesn't have caster levels, hence the need to put in specific text stating to use alchemist level as caster level for purposes of spell effects. In my home campaign, because my character spent a mess of gold to goto a large magic academy to study alchemy I could take craft wand, but that is 100% a house ruled, story driven decision on the part of my GM.
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The only technicality with that is Troll isn't a Huge creature and thus you'd need to pick Cloud Giant or Storm Giant instead.
You only get Giant Form I which is limited to Large Size.
Rend and Regeneration are vastly better than the alternative -> stone throwing and immunity to elements under most circumstances.
oh and you forgot to add another 4 points from bonus atributes every 4th level so 44 Strength assuming you were stacking into Strength
Yeah, I was deliberately conservative. You could start with a 20 using the half orc bonus, use all your stat bonuses, and then pick up another 4 points using wish for 100k gp. For an even 50 strength. I'm sure there are ways to work it even a touch higher.
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With that last line can an alchemist qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor?
An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Seems... unlikely.
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With the Dr. Strangelob article you might want to note that if an Alchemist uses the rather cheap Muleback Cords out of the APG (p.308) that it makes it more plausible to have Strength be a complete dump stat.
These are kind of interesting, in particular since they seemingly compliment ant haul and the masterwork backpack. I'm not sure dumping strength below 10 is a great idea for Strangelob... it is a possibility though. Hmm
Nice guide, I just wanted to point out an error. You suggest using the Spell Immunity extract to become immune to Dispel Magic. This would be a great idea except that Spell Immunity can only protect against spells that allow spell resistance, which Dispel Magic does not.
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Nice guide, I just wanted to point out an error. You suggest using the Spell Immunity extract to become immune to Dispel Magic. This would be a great idea except that Spell Immunity can only protect against spells that allow spell resistance, which Dispel Magic does not.
Thanks, and nice catch. That pretty much downgrades spell immunity IMO then...
Aside
The whole reason I thought of this use was because in a PFS game at Neoncon there was an enemy cleric who was buffed to the gills and I hit him with dispel. The spell failed because the cleric had spell immunity. Josh Frost was the GM :D
Edit: Updated the site, that's a pretty hard knock against the spell immunity since it's otherwise a crap shoot what you are going to get hit with.
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Edit: Updated the site, that's a pretty hard knock against the spell immunity since it's otherwise a crap shoot what you are going to get hit with.
However, Spell Immunity can also be used to protect yourself if the party wizard has a tendency to be reckless with area spells (Fireball etc) or if you like to turn invisible when combat starts and your allies don't know where you are.
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If part of your party tactics is bombing into areas where allies might be cruising around the alchemist can always return fire with bombs. Ok... more seriously, there are likely easier solutions. Energy resistance is second level and draconic reservoir is 3rd (which would let you recycle the mages recklessness).
I suppose if you wizard is tossing confusion into the mix when you might be there then it might be useful. If that's the case then perhaps you might be confused enough to toss some bombs his way...
Nice work Ogre.
I'll do a full review if I have the time, but right now I have a few comments to make for Dr Strangelob.
On the extracts:
- Bomber's eye could be green, the extra range is really useful, especially when you want to do a full attack and not move on this turn (the real downside being the short duration)
- Transformation, am I missing something here ? it's awesome, not only does it give you a good boost to hit (always nice IMHO) but it gives you an extra attack ! Meaning you can bomb 4 times a round (and it stacks with haste)
Feats:
- Rapidshot and manyshot should be no brainers once you have fast bomb, with that and the buffs you could throw 7 bombs a round (sure you can't do it all day, but against BBEG it will be a blast ;) ). And as a nice bonus those feats apply also on your backup range weapon (not a crossbow obviously)
Discoveries:
- Frost bomb gives the staggered condition which is really nice I'd choose that over concussive any day, but the real killer here is Force bomb.
- Force bomb, now that I've played with it quite a bit, I can say it's amazing particularly if you have melee characters in your party. In my mind the main use is to get someone prone and the really nice bonus is that you can still do some nice damage without worrying about damage reduction. And it's effective against most enemies, except those that have high dex saves (remember that a Dr Strangelob will always have high DD)
- Explosive bomb is nice but I'd put it green, not blue, you can definitely be effective without it.
That's all for a first reading !
Feats:
- Rapidshot and manyshot should be no brainers once you have fast bomb, with that and the buffs you could throw 7 bombs a round (sure you can't do it all day, but against BBEG it will be a blast ;) ).
Rapid Shot might be useful, but Manyshot only works with a bow. Maybe you meant the TWF chain of feats?
Rapid Shot might be useful, but Manyshot only works with a bow. Maybe you meant the TWF chain of feats?
Feats:
- Rapidshot and manyshot should be no brainers once you have fast bomb, with that and the buffs you could throw 7 bombs a round (sure you can't do it all day, but against BBEG it will be a blast ;) ).
You're right, I overlooked that detail, well, using manyshot with bombs doesn't seem absurd, but RAW it's not possible. Rapidshot is still a good feat for fast bombing.
As for the TWF chain, it's not clear if it's legal or not while bombing, I'd say no (and my DM also) because to create a bomb you'd need 2 hands.
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Nice work Ogre.
I'll do a full review if I have the time, but right now I have a few comments to make for Dr Strangelob.
On the extracts:
- Bomber's eye could be green, the extra range is really useful, especially when you want to do a full attack and not move on this turn (the real downside being the short duration)
If you are in multi round 100'+ range encounters it's awesome, almost any other situation you are just better closing a bit then lobbing that first bomb. It's just simple action economy.
Also, compare this to reduce person which can help a bomber in any encounter and has a long enough duration to be used in anticipation of an encounter rather than during one.
Thinking about it I'm more inclined to move reduce person to green for Strangelob.
- Transformation, am I missing something here ? it's awesome, not only does it give you a good boost to hit (always nice IMHO) but it gives you an extra attack ! Meaning you can bomb 4 times a round (and it stacks with haste)
The extra attack per round is sweet but you sacrifice a full round of bombing now (3-4 bombs) for additional bombs later in the encounter. Great for those "Quaff it then kick in the doors" situations but the majority of the time you don't know for certain if the next room is worth the high level extract. Something like giant form you can get a couple encounters out of reliably.
I'll look at some more of your suggestions when I have a bit more time, thanks for the comments.
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Feats:
- Rapidshot and manyshot should be no brainers once you have fast bomb, with that and the buffs you could throw 7 bombs a round (sure you can't do it all day, but against BBEG it will be a blast ;) ). And as a nice bonus those feats apply also on your backup range weapon (not a crossbow obviously)
I'm not exactly sure whether this works or not. The weird wording about if additional attacks are allowed by your BAB throws me for a loop. I'll probably add this.
Discoveries:
- Frost bomb gives the staggered condition which is really nice I'd choose that over concussive any day, but the real killer here is Force bomb.
Staggered is better versus martial characters but those characters usually have a strong fort save. It just seems to me that force bomb is much better, it gives slightly less damage but targets a weaker save and inflicts a more severe condition. I know you were comparing it to concussive bomb but...
Concussion is for a different purpose, concussive inflicts deafness which nerfs spellcasters and lasts a full minute. IMO giving a caster a 20% chance to fail spells for a minute is far nastier than limiting their movement for a round.
- Force bomb, now that I've played with it quite a bit, I can say it's amazing particularly if you have melee characters in your party. In my mind the main use is to get someone prone and the really nice bonus is that you can still do some nice damage without worrying about damage reduction. And it's effective against most enemies, except those that have high dex saves (remember that a Dr Strangelob will always have high DD)
- Explosive bomb is nice but I'd put it green, not blue, you can definitely be effective without it.
Yeah, I'll probably move explosive down to green. Force bomb... I haven't gotten to play with it yet, I think I agree with you though.
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Infuse Dragonic Reservior, give it to your melee, then hurl bombs at him and his opponent, allowing him to soak up the splash and whack his opponent for extra damage :P Either way, you both rape the opponent. So perhaps a blue infusion?
Seems like this or variants of it are the way to take advantage of it. Mr. Hyde can also take it while the wizard lobs fireballs in. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to make a spell worthwhile.
When I thought that explosive made your splash bigger I would put it Blue now that I am useing it right green seems right,
Force Bomb on the other hand is very effective, not only dose it knock you opponent down but it is force damage.
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Think of it this way.
You're doing damage, the melee is doing damage, and at the same time, you're boosting the melee's damage merely by doing damage. You don't waste any actions, and you were going to throw those bombs anyway if you're Strangelob.
So it's useful as you're buffing the melee by simply doing what you were going to do anyway, and they spent the action to drink it. Synergetic, no?
Most likely you can select the fighter out so it's not any different than the fighter standing in a firepit before combat to charge up. Essentially it's still a long term damage buff.
Heroism is almost certainly the better third level extract to buff the fighter. It's likely adding more damage by increasing the fighters attack rolls and adds to all his saves and skills for the duration.
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When I thought that explosive made your splash bigger I would put it Blue now that I am useing it right green seems right,
Force Bomb on the other hand is very effective, not only dose it knock you opponent down but it is force damage.
Yeah, the more I think about force bomb the more I like it as a melee support bomb. Just keep knocking them over round after round. When you get multiple attacks per round you get multiple attempts. It's a ranged trip attack with a much better chance of succeeding against large monsters.
- Transformation, am I missing something here ? it's awesome, not only does it give you a good boost to hit (always nice IMHO) but it gives you an extra attack ! Meaning you can bomb 4 times a round (and it stacks with haste)
Yeah your missing Master Chymist basically does the same things but is always on (-2BAB total). Also MC levels stack with Alch level so you get full bomb damage.
The one drawback is that your lower Alch level stops you qualifying for some of the higher bomb abilities.The downside to transforamtion is that its gained late in the charcetrs life cycle and where ever action in a round is precious losing a round to gain an attack over using that same round to attack with 1 less attack has you doing less damage early
e.g.
Round 1 transformation vs 3 bomb attacks = 0 vs 3
Round 2 4 bomb attacks vs 3 bomb attacks = 4 vs 6
Round 3 4 bomb attacks vs 3 bombs attacks = 8 vs 9
so you don't catch up until the 4th round assuming you get to full attack each round which isn't always possible.
Ogre what are you thought on a build for taking advantage of that idea you suggested a while ago with the poison cloud.
where your poison immunity at 10th level makes you immune to the cloudkill effects your poison bomb can dish out at 12th level.
A Melee build taking Alchemist to 12th level and then 8 levels of MC ? or perhaps using force bombs to keep enemies prone and stuck inside a cloud taking damage and CON dmg
Another thought I had was for a party composition to take advantage
An Alchemist + Druid + Monk
all three get posion immunity before 12th level which means all 3 could operate inside a cloudkill so an alchemist could basically blanket the entire battlefield in cloudkill and then have all enemies take at least 1 CON dmg each round while they try and fight off 3 classes that can can do well in melee
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Ogre what are you thought on a build for taking advantage of that idea you suggested a while ago with the poison cloud.
Haven't gone beyond the basic idea. There is also a 4th level long duration spell in the APG which gives a character a bubble of fresh air. Don't recall the name of it but it would work well.
Having multiple party members with poison immunity is a great idea.
Ogre what are you thought on a build for taking advantage of that idea you suggested a while ago with the poison cloud.Haven't gone beyond the basic idea. There is also a 4th level long duration spell in the APG which gives a character a bubble of fresh air. Don't recall the name of it but it would work well.
Having multiple party members with poison immunity is a great idea.
I also found the Necklace of adaptation 9000gp would make party memeber immune from not only the cloudkill but the stinking cloud as well
so that might cover the non poison immune classes into working with this idea.
at 12th level 9000gold is about 10% of your total charcters gold value so it would come at the price of something else and takes up the necklace slot.
I love the idea of the cloudkill becuase the longer monster are in it even if they are making thier CON saves they are still losing CON and thus having thier Fort save reduced as well which means they'll start failing thier saves and start taking even more CON dmg a round.
The got me thinking about using stinking cloud at the same time since the necklace covers both effects, any monster that fails the stinking cloud save loses its standard action , if you have said creature in a grapple I assume it means it can't break free becuase it can't use its standard action to try and break free.
and with the cloudkill effect on top of the stinking cloud effect it slowly takes CON dmg reducing its fort save so it'll keep failing the stinking cloud save and have no chance to break the grapple.
The other nice benefit is the save DC's for both effects will keep scaling with your alchmist level
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I love the idea of the cloudkill becuase the longer monster are in it even if they are making thier CON saves they are still losing CON and thus having thier Fort save reduced as well which means they'll start failing thier saves and start taking even more CON dmg a round.
You also need to consider that Cloudkill gives total cover outside of 5' and has a 20% miss chance for adjacent targets. Even if your companions are immune to the poison, the concealment/cover aspect is likely to reduce the damage they are able to do to the monster. If all it is taking is CON damage, the monster is fine until its CON reaches 0.
I'm pretty sure that PF has an item that would lets you see through Fog Cloud and the like, but that's more money spent to make this work.
And honestly, no GM is going to let you get away with this for a significant length of time. Your enemies will learn your tactics and be ready to counteract them
I love the idea of the cloudkill becuase the longer monster are in it even if they are making thier CON saves they are still losing CON and thus having thier Fort save reduced as well which means they'll start failing thier saves and start taking even more CON dmg a round.You also need to consider that Cloudkill gives total cover outside of 5' and has a 20% miss chance for adjacent targets. Even if your companions are immune to the poison, the concealment/cover aspect is likely to reduce the damage they are able to do to the monster. If all it is taking is CON damage, the monster is fine until its CON reaches 0.
I'm pretty sure that PF has an item that would lets you see through Fog Cloud and the like, but that's more money spent to make this work.
And honestly, no GM is going to let you get away with this for a significant length of time. Your enemies will learn your tactics and be ready to counteract them
when you lose CON you lose the HP bonus you get from a higher CON just like a barb get temp HP when raging, losing CON loses you HP as well.
so knocking 6 CON off a monster knocks off 3 x HD worth of HP (for a 15 HD creature thats 45HP)
plus CON damage from multiple sources stack so if you've got a poison weapon user then it all adds up.
enemies don't learn tactics nor pass them on if they are dead. and the chances of enemies being able to flee from these tactics is pretty low ;)
also if your grappling and can do damage while in the grapple there is no miss chance in the cloud, plus there are other abilites and feats that can overcome concealment.
keep in mind this isn't a be all and end all tactic it does nothing against anything lacking a CON score ;)
Infuse Dragonic Reservior, give it to your melee, then hurl bombs at him and his opponent, allowing him to soak up the splash and whack his opponent for extra damage :P Either way, you both rape the opponent. So perhaps a blue infusion?Seems like this or variants of it are the way to take advantage of it. Mr. Hyde can also take it while the wizard lobs fireballs in. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to make a spell worthwhile.
Why would you use bombs or fireballs when you could just stand in a bonfire?
EDIT: I should read to the end of the thread before posting; Ogre said the same thing. :-)
Still digesting it all so no direct comments as yet other than Great Stuff!
Assuming Human and access to Splash Weapon Mastery, and the need for Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot, if you take Precise Bomb you're not getting Smoke Bomb until 4th level and the important Stink Bomb until 5th level.
You could accelerate Smoke and Stink by 1 level by delaying Precise Shot until 5th level but there are just so many Feats required to get up and running I'm not sure if it's worth it.
If I were making a 5th/6th level character then great but playing through to level 5 before really starting your "builds" thang is going to be painful.
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Thanks guys for the input and I appreciate the compliments.
Had a longer reply that got eaten.
Smoke/ stink bomb is the cornerstone of the smoker build, much more important than precise shot, so I am leaving that one as it is. I pulled infusion out of the 3rd level feat slot for the straight bomber.
Thanks guys for the input and I appreciate the compliments.
Had a longer reply that got eaten.
Smoke/ stink bomb is the cornerstone of the smoker build, much more important than precise shot, so I am leaving that one as it is. I pulled infusion out of the 3rd level feat slot for the straight bomber.
I agree, however I've totally forgotten something somewhat important to the Smoke build and that's that you can target an intersection with a thrown weapon. This attack is a ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack but you only need to hit AC 5 and as the smoke bombs don't need a target it's possible to avoid Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot altogether if you want.
I assume an intersection isn't "in melee" and therefore you can ignore the -4 penalty for firing into combat.
Can you add the goggles from rise of the runelords adventure path (think number 4) from the stone giant "boss" ? hard to find their stats anywhere and they are perfect for a smoker
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Can you add the goggles from rise of the runelords adventure path (think number 4) from the stone giant "boss" ? hard to find their stats anywhere and they are perfect for a smoker
I'm trying to keep outside sources to a minimum and keep to player friendly sources. I probably should have skipped the cheliax companion and Adventurers armory, but they are at least player sources and recent... and just too tempting.
just really hard to find the stats on that item for players, DM's might not want them snooping through that adventure
I'm considering doing a 5th article on some alternate rules content if people are interested.
I'm sure everyone here would appreciate that.
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[EDIT]
Would aiming at an intersection result in a smoke bomb area of 4 x 4?
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I'm considering doing a 5th article on some alternate rules content if people are interested.
I'm sure everyone here would appreciate that.
.
[EDIT]
Would aiming at an intersection result in a smoke bomb area of 4 x 4?
The wording on splash weapons is a bit... weird. My feeling is hitting an intersection would result in a 10' radius effect using the templates on this page.
It's a 4x4 with the corners cut out.
OXXO
XXXX
XXXX
OXXO
If you hit a target it's a 5' 'square' with it's corners cut out.
OXXXO
XXXXX
XXTXX
XXXXX
OXXXO
You could argue it's different from that because the wording is strange. I prefer this because it's simple and seems like what the designers probably had in mind.
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You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
Seems pretty clear to me. If you target an intersection, you hit the 4 squares around it (the only squares adjacent to the intersection). It makes no sense for hitting an intersection to splash to more squares (10) than if you hit a creature (medium 8). By hitting a creature, it splashes off a higher point to hit the squares around it. Hitting an intersection hits the ground, thus making a smaller splash area.
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.Seems pretty clear to me. If you target an intersection, you hit the 4 squares around it (the only squares adjacent to the intersection). It makes no sense for hitting an intersection to splash to more squares (10) than if you hit a creature (medium 8). By hitting a creature, it splashes off a higher point to hit the squares around it. Hitting an intersection hits the ground, thus making a smaller splash area.
It will "splash" to 10ft if it's a Smoke bomb!
Would aiming at an intersection result in a smoke bomb area of 4 x 4?
The wordng on splash weapons is a bit... weird. My feeling is hitting an intersection would result in a 10' radius effect using the templates on this page.It's a 4x4 with the corners cut out.
OXXO
XXXX
XXXX
OXXOIf you hit a target it's a 5' 'square' with it's corners cut out.
OXXXO
XXXXX
XXTXX
XXXXX
OXXXOYou could argue it's different from that because the wording is strange. I prefer this because it's simple and seems like what the designers probably had in mind.
Ok, I was thinking a 3x3 for regular hits, 4x4 for smoke targeting an intersection and 5x5 for smoke targeting one dude. However, your method does follow all the other spell template rules so I'll be using your areas me thinks, thanks!
Osmoka Bin-Lobden [Male Human Smoke Bomber Alchemist]
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 7
1st: Splash Weapon Mastery
HBF: Precise Bomb
2nd: Smoke Bomb
3rd: Extra Discovery - Stink Bomb
4th: Infusion
5th: Point Blank Shot
6th: Dispelling Bomb
7th: Precise Shot
8th: Fast Bomb
9th: Extra Discovery - Force Bomb
Like/Hate [Str] ??