Further, I dislike the thought that even 1st level characters are so much above the average, because that would either mean higher-level characters are incredibly rare, far more so than most settings seem to assume in their published materials; in which case, the world would have been overrun by monsters long ago.
Oh, that one's easy. The Law of Antagonist Equilibrium is a subset of the Rule of Narrative Causality.
My My... Interesting...
Well here's my 2cp :
First of all : About this multiclass non-sense, taking a fighter level when you're a wizard and put a heavy armor on ? Are you kidding ? What about the Arcane spell failure chance ?
And this +20 ring to a skill ? You need 20 ranks in the skill to create it, so you muste be level 20, a small step from a god... It cost 46000gp, you can buy a big castle with that money... So, hypthetically a level one can have this, but a level one can also have the Shadowstaff or any artifact I can create with the rules if you go this way...
And I wonder how many time it will take for this poor level one with such a valuable treasure to be found dead in an alley without his ring... :p
Yeah it's true by the book, but I can't see a GM allowing this though...
About this IRL guys things, I'm totally ok with it, has a comics and manga reader and a "Mutant&Mastermind" player I totally understand the D&D point of view, what I don't agree with is that "most of people are level 1" thing, I can't imagine a king guard being a merely level 1 warrior... And if the guards in town were level 1 warrior when my PC reach level 10 they can take whatever they want from that town without any problem... Can't let that happen can we ? ;)
And I know that letting PC leveling up in adventure annoy me too, but having played Wharhammer RPG where you need hours of practice to obtain a skill I know that if you do that in a fast pace campaign you end up with the PC having tons of unused XP and very frustrated for it...
Last but not least you have to consider RAW for what they are : a base for your game... You want a more skilled Fighter ? Ask your GM, you give up some of the feat and gain skills instead, I can't see why your GM won't allow you this... That's what GM are for... ;)
Actually, the 3.5 Pathfinder Campaign Setting book had a class variant for the Fighter where you gave up your 1st level feat and some class skills, to get different class skills and 4 + Int skills.
So there is a precedent for exactly what you suggested!
what I don't agree with is that "most of people are level 1" thing, I can't imagine a king guard being a merely level 1 warrior... And if the guards in town were level 1 warrior when my PC reach level 10 they can take whatever they want from that town without any problem... Can't let that happen can we ? ;)
Most, as in more than half of all people. That does not mean a king's guard (presumably recruited from among the best soldiers in the kingdom and provided with additional training/equipment) will be a level 1 warrior. And while many town guards will probably be level 1 warriors (considering that towns generally only have a few thousand inhabitants, at most), there will be a few higher level sergeants, captains, etc. available.
Granted, by the time a PC reaches level 10, they're probably tougher than any one individual they're likely to meet in a community of 2-3 thousand. However, they might be in trouble if 20-30 town guards, with leadership (and possibly magical) support, attack en masse (especially if they use hit-and-run tactics, cover, aid another to grapple checks, etc.). If they start trashing town guards, they become outlaws hunted by various heroes, organizations, etc. who consider the PC to be a menace/nuisance/rival.
A good rule of thumb is to assume that in any given community, at least half are level 1 (and only 10% have PC class levels), with 1/2 to 1/4 being higher level. Of those at least 2nd level, 1/2 to 1/4 are 3rd level or higher. And so on... For a community of 2,000 using the 1/4 guideline: 1,500 are level 1, 375 are level 2, 94 are level 3, 23 are level 4, 6 are level 5, and 2 are level 6. Using the 1/2 guideline (for a high-fantasy campaign or unusually advanced community): 1,000 are level 1, 500 are level 2, 250 are level 3, 125 are level 4, 63 are level 5, 31 are level 6, 16 are level 7, 8 are level 8, 4 are level 9, 2 are level 10, and 1 is level 11.
Higher level individuals are more likely to have PC class levels, of course. So, a king's guard could very well be a 4th-5th level fighter instead of a 1st level warrior...
Well, the other aspect to this is that this is a world of fantasy and magic, so yeah... the King himself, and the King's Guard, are likely not going to be just mundane people either.
I'd suspect you could have every single person in the entire Castle being over 2nd level, and they'd still constitute less than 1% of the population, letting one still say "most" people are 1st level.
Well, the other aspect to this is that this is a world of fantasy and magic, so yeah... the King himself, and the King's Guard, are likely not going to be just mundane people either.
Well, the king could just be 2nd level aristocrat (or even an expert). With an above average Int and Cha, he could be an effective leader and ruler without being an effective combatant (relative to that 4th-5th level fighter guard).
Funny thing about being strong and fast, the instant you're off balance, a 70 year old woman can control you with her pinky finger. The person who understands how to tactically use the environment will be the last one off balance. I could tell you that I base my knowledge of this fact on nearly 15 years of martial arts training in a lot of different arts, but that shouldn't convince you. Five minutes on the mat would.
You lost me here, LT. While it might be true that an extremely well-trained, incredibly fit and freakishly strong 70 year old woman will have a chance to put that 300 lb. steroid freak on his ass if he goes radically off balance, the fact is that size and speed do matter. A lot. In my misspent youth I spent more than five minutes on the mat boxing and wrestling (and yes, those are martial arts) and trust me when I tell you that there is a reason why virtually every combat sport divides competitors into weight classes. Training and a good figth plan (tactics) means a lot, but a good big man beats a good small man pretty much every time, and sometimes even superior tactics won't win the day against someone who just physically outmatches you. There is also a reason why the 90 lb science fair winner (who could well be a tactical genius) regularly gets his lunch taken by the 150 lb. barely literate bully in middle school.
I think tactics is a pretty broad term that can cover both individual tactics (am I going to double up on the left jab before throwing the hook, or am I going to feint with the left and bring the haymaker right away) which I think every D&D/PF fighter is probably pretty good at, and small group tactics (do I deploy the rogue immediately to flank the enemy fighter in tandem with me, or do I send him skulking around the outside to seek out and try to surprise the enemy spellcaster) which a D&D/PF fighter may or may not be good at. The definition of tactics can even be expanded to mass combat, as it is considered tactics, not strategy, when a battlefield commander decides how to deploy his artillery and when to commit his reserve - something your typical D&D/PF fighter might have no clue about. I think many of the people arguing tactics vs. fighting skill here are focused on just one aspect of tactics.
Considering we are discussing the difference between real life fighters and strategists, I'm thinking that it's quite apt to make that distinction in the terminology.
If you broaden the word "tactics" too far out, then you can't distinguish a Fighter that's just good at combat, vs a General commanding an army.
The argument is that everything that makes the Fighter class doesn't really point towards the "General commanding armies". Saying "he knows tactics, in that he can use his environment to gain advantage, means that he can lead armies to victory" is inaccurate. Our point of contention was mostly the line "they are inseparable".
.
In an adventure path written over on ENWorld (War of the Burning Sky), they have rules for a tactics game called "Conquest". It's played with Knowledge (history) checks, although you can get bonuses during play for doing additional strategies that use skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local or nobility), and Sense Motive.
Notice how none of these are on the Fighter's class skill list. Quite simply.. he's not supposed to be a general tactician. The game had a Commander class that did have those skills, and were more along the lines of "part fighter, part leader".
If I were to peg a real life person who lead armies and nations, this is why I'd put them as Experts (for the skills needed), or Commanders (if they were particularly heroic and personally martially inclined).
That isn't to say that I don't think it'd be a good idea to make the Fighter more tactically inclined. My suggestions during alpha and beta were to give him more skillpoints, and add in things that were more related to tactics (and add a Knowledge tactics skill).
It would have really alleviated the one-dimensionality that the Fighter suffers from right now.
But as it stands, the Fighter simply isn't that. A high level fighter is an amazing combatant, who should be like the Kings in Record of Lodoss War... decked out in magic items and capable of single handedly taking on armies or dragons, and who's only equal in physical combat is another fighter just like him.
My My... Interesting...
Well here's my 2cp :
First of all : About this multiclass non-sense, taking a fighter level when you're a wizard and put a heavy armor on ? Are you kidding ? What about the Arcane spell failure chance ?
And this +20 ring to a skill ? You need 20 ranks in the skill to create it, so you muste be level 20, a small step from a god... It cost 46000gp, you can buy a big castle with that money... So, hypthetically a level one can have this, but a level one can also have the Shadowstaff or any artifact I can create with the rules if you go this way...
And I wonder how many time it will take for this poor level one with such a valuable treasure to be found dead in an alley without his ring... :p
Yeah it's true by the book, but I can't see a GM allowing this though...About this IRL guys things, I'm totally ok with it, has a comics and manga reader and a "Mutant&Mastermind" player I totally understand the D&D point of view, what I don't agree with is that "most of people are level 1" thing, I can't imagine a king guard being a merely level 1 warrior... And if the guards in town were level 1 warrior when my PC reach level 10 they can take whatever they want from that town without any problem... Can't let that happen can we ? ;)
And I know that letting PC leveling up in adventure annoy me too, but having played Wharhammer RPG where you need hours of practice to obtain a skill I know that if you do that in a fast pace campaign you end up with the PC having tons of unused XP and very frustrated for it...
Last but not least you have to consider RAW for what they are : a base for your game... You want a more skilled Fighter ? Ask your GM, you give up some of the feat and gain skills instead, I can't see why your GM won't allow you this... That's what GM are for... ;)
Arcane spellfailure chance for mithral spellchanneling armor with some arcane armor prof? 0?
+20 Ring you don't need 20 ranks. You need someone with 20 ranks, OR, in PF, you have a somewhat more difficult check to craft it. Used by craftsmen, it's likely an item built up over the generations. And since it allows them to make things 4x faster then their competition, hugely worth it in the long run. Swap it off every 8 hours between the smiths. Tie it to the family bloodline, or maybe to the clan forge, so it's worthless outside of it. It's just what people would do.
Artifact staves? Useless.
I can see a level 1 king's guard...he's the new squire.
Level 1 - just out of basic training/apprenticeship
level 2 - Seen combat, blooded; can make a master's work
level 3 - Highly experienced soldier, dangerous/ experienced master
level 4 - Probably the best warrior in a company, olympic level athlete, one of the most skilled people in a trade you could hire anywhere.
Level 5 - Probably one of the top 3 people in any profession on the continent, perhaps in the world.
Level 6 - the absolute best at anything in our world. 6 ranks, 6 BAB...add physical stats and that's all she wrote. Unless you add in mystical stuff, this is Batman...EL6 with a zillion extra feats and skills.
Level 7 - More then human. Captain AMerica is the example here...he's a super-soldier, although you could make a case for him being stat-based. However, he's to Soldiering what Tony Stark is to Engineers...and Tony is better then any normal human alive, too.
Level 10 - Can drive a pinky through a brick (power attack). These guys are NOT human.
Level 20 - Can drive a pinky through STEEL. Definitely not human.
==Aelryinth
I really didn't intend for this thread to be about Fighters and skills specifically. I was trying to garner discussion more about how skills are given out and distributed than what the skills themselves represent.
Still, it's been an interesting read!
...Funny thing about being strong and fast, the instant you're off balance, a 70 year old woman can control you with her pinky finger. The person who understands how to tactically use the environment will be the last one off balance. I could tell you that I base my knowledge of this fact on nearly 15 years of martial arts training in a lot of different arts, but that shouldn't convince you. Five minutes on the mat would.You lost me here, LT. While it might be true that an extremely well-trained, incredibly fit and freakishly strong 70 year old woman will have a chance to put that 300 lb. steroid freak on his ass if he goes radically off balance, the fact is that size and speed do matter. A lot. In my misspent youth I spent more than five minutes on the mat boxing and wrestling (and yes, those are martial arts) and trust me when I tell you that there is a reason why virtually every combat sport divides competitors into weight classes. Training and a good figth plan (tactics) means a lot, but a good big man beats a good small man pretty much every time, and sometimes even superior tactics won't win the day against someone who just physically outmatches you. There is also a reason why the 90 lb science fair winner (who could well be a tactical genius) regularly gets his lunch taken by the 150 lb. barely literate bully in middle school.
I think tactics is a pretty broad term that can cover both individual tactics (am I going to double up on the left jab before throwing the hook, or am I going to feint with the left and bring the haymaker right away) which I think every D&D/PF fighter is probably pretty good at, and small group tactics (do I deploy the rogue immediately to flank the enemy fighter in tandem with me, or do I send him skulking around the outside to seek out and try to surprise the enemy spellcaster) which a D&D/PF fighter may or may not be good at. The definition of tactics can even be expanded to mass combat, as it is considered
Agree that balance is important. Funny thing, though, with some notable exceptions, most of the fast and strong folks I know (which certainly does not include me anymore, at least for the fast part) also have pretty good balance. Seems to come as part of the same general blessed by the Gods/work out like a fiend package of athletic skills. Life's not fair that way.
Agree that balance is important. Funny thing, though, with some notable exceptions, most of the fast and strong folks I know (which certainly does not include me anymore, at least for the fast part) also have pretty good balance. Seems to come as part of the same general blessed by the Gods/work out like a fiend package of athletic skills. Life's not fair that way.
On the other hand, those people can't use their tummy as a bear table. Why have six pack when you can have a whole keg?
Agree that balance is important. Funny thing, though, with some notable exceptions, most of the fast and strong folks I know (which certainly does not include me anymore, at least for the fast part) also have pretty good balance. Seems to come as part of the same general blessed by the Gods/work out like a fiend package of athletic skills. Life's not fair that way.On the other hand, those people can't use their tummy as a bear table. Why have six pack when you can have a whole keg?
Hey, careful there! I resemble that remark! :)
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Stick that wizard/17 in the A-M Shell you just conjured up, smile at him from your plate mail, heft your greatsword, and proceed to beat the crap out of his bracers of armor no AC ass. Betcha he'll reconsider level 1 fighter ability.
Would you accept an argument of 'cut off the fighters arms and the wizard can punch him to death'? No, because it's retarded to think completely removing a characters ability to fight back is a balancing factor.
So please, give up the damn AMF.
Hey, careful there! I resemble that remark! :)
On the other hand, those people can't use their tummy as a bear table. Why have six pack when you can have a whole keg?
Oh, I was honest, not sarcastic. What I meant is that all that time that people put into working out, we who don't enjoy lifting things can spend that time on the good things in life. It's a choice between good physical shape and 10 women, and good food and one woman that play RPGs. I can settle for one woman, but I wouldn't be able to settle for wasting 10 hours a week at lifting heavy stuff repeatedly.
Oh, I was honest, not sarcastic. What I meant is that all that time that people put into working out, we who don't enjoy lifting things can spend that time on the good things in life. It's a choice between good physical shape and 10 women, and good food and one woman that play RPGs. I can settle for one woman, but I wouldn't be able to settle for wasting 10 hours a week at lifting heavy stuff repeatedly.Hey, careful there! I resemble that remark! :)
On the other hand, those people can't use their tummy as a bear table. Why have six pack when you can have a whole keg?
Oh man, you mean I could have had ten times as many women if I had just stayed in shape? No one told me that! Can I rewind and start over?
Disclaimer: if my beloved wife is cruising these boards, I'm only joking, Sweetie. You are the one and only one for me, so please put down the knife. :)
People need to stop using the 'wizard in an AMF' argument. If you have to remove an entire class feature to make your argument work, you have failed.
The wizard just gets that feat that lets you ignore anti-magic fields.
But seriously: You're right - it's childish. Though I think it's much more childish to hinge your argument on the fact that your guy gets to prepare for hours and then completely surprise the other guy.
A 1st-level commoner can kill you that way, it proves nothing.
Bear table? Not advisable - those beasts will maul you if you try anything like that.
Disclaimer: if my beloved wife is cruising these boards, I'm only joking, Sweetie. You are the one and only one for me, so please put down the knife. :)
Hey, I don't know how to reply to those private message thingies, so I write to you here: Those strippers you wanted me to round up are here, so you should tell your wife that excuse you've been working on all week and come over.
And yes, I checked the list with them: They knew everything on it and are more than willing to do it. They also know some more stuff we didn't come up with it. I think we hit a jackpot here!