Just over a month ago, Hero Lab became the official character management software tool for the Pathfinder RPG. We've been hard at work developing a solid plan for how best to support Pathfinder, as well as beginning to get that plan implemented. The following is a summary of the plan, including pricing and release dates for a bunch of Pathfinder content over the next couple months.
Core Pathfinder RPG Package
The core Pathfinder RPG game system is where everything begins for Pathfinder players using Hero Lab. The content currently provided within the core package will be expanding beyond what is currently provided. The core package can either be selected as the free game system included with the initial purchase of Hero Lab ($30) or added to an existing Hero Lab license ($20). A complete list of all the material in the core package is provided below.
Currently included content:
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
* Player content from six Pathfinder Adventure Paths - Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, Kingmaker
* 20+ common PC and NPC races, including the Drow, Tiefling, Hobgoblin, and many others
* Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play
* Character Traits Web Enhancement (same as the Basic Traits from the Advanced Player's Guide)
Content to be included in the near future:
* Gamemastery Guide
* Pathfinder Chronicles: NPC Guide
* Player content from the Serpent's Skull Adventure Path
All the "future" content listed above will be incorporated via free updates for existing Hero Lab users.
General Details About Add-On Packages
In addition to the existing Bestiary package, we'll be creating a number of optional Pathfinder add-on packages for Hero Lab. These add-on packages will incorporate content from one or more supplements for the game, conveniently available in a ready-to-use state, with all of the material professionally entered and maintained by Lone Wolf Development.
Note that all of the material within these optional packages can also be manually entered by users, so the only component needed to fully utilize the Hero Lab data files is the core package for the game system.
Advanced Player's Guide Add-On Package
The Advanced Player's Guide add-on package encompasses everything from the mammoth new Pathfinder supplement of the same name. This package includes the new base and prestige classes, the new archetypes and custom abilities for classes, alternate racial abilities, racial favored class bonuses, and hundreds of new feats, traits, spells, equipment, and magic items.
The APG add-on package is not yet completely implemented, but the majority of the material is in place. In the interest of enabling Pathfinder players to utilize the APG content at the same time the book releases, Paizo has authorized us to release the APG add-on package early. On August 5th, we'll be releasing the APG add-on package to coincide with the official release of the APG book at GenCon.
This initial release will include the most critical elements of the new APG book, but not everything. In the weeks following GenCon, the remaining material will be incorporated and made available as a free update to anyone who purchases the package early.
Although the work involved in implementing this massive tome is extensive, we realize that this will be viewed as a "core" book by most players. As such, we're keeping the price as low as possible to make it accessible to the bulk of Pathfinder players. Price: $9.99. Availability: August 5th, 2010.
Bestiary Add-On Package
The Bestiary add-on package will remain unchanged. With all of the monstrous races from both the Pathfinder Bestiary and the Bonus Bestiary, this is an extremely useful resource for GMs that want to quickly setup encounters or customize monsters. Price: $14.99. Availability: Now.
Player's Companion Races #1 Add-On Package
This package incorporates all of the material from the first three Player's Companion supplements focused on races: Elves of Golarion, Dwarves of Golarion, and Gnomes of Golarion. Price: $4.99. Availability: September 2010.
Player's Companion Races #2 Add-On Package
This package provides the content from the following three Player's Companion supplements focused on races: Orcs of Golarion, Halflings of Golarion, and one additional (as yet unannounced) book. Price: $4.99. Availability: September 2010.
This package will initially only include content from the Orcs of Golarion book. When the Halflings book is released, the additional content for that book will be added as a free update. The same will occur when the third book is released.
Player's Companion Regions #1 Add-On Package
This package includes all material from the first three Player's Companion books focused on regions: Osirion, Land of the Pharaohs; Taldor, Echoes of Glory; and Qadira, Gateway to the East. Price: $4.99. Availability: September 2010.
Player's Companion Regions #2 Add-On Package
This package spans the content from the second three Player's Companion books focused on regions: Cheliax, Empire of Devils; Andoran, Spirit of Liberty; and Sargava, the Lost Colony. Price: $4.99. Availability: September 2010.
Adventurer's Armory Add-On Package
This package incorporates all of the material from the Adventurer's Armory supplement for Pathfinder. Price: $4.99. Availability: September 2010.
Bundled Discounts
For Pathfinder fans that want to purchase many of the above add-on packages, we'll be offering discounts when multiple packages are purchased together. The specifics have not all been finalized, but expect to be able to purchase both Races add-ons at a discount, as well as both Regions add-ons at a discount. Additional bundling options are being worked out and will be announced by the time these packages are released.
Additional Packages in the Future
We're still working out the details regarding all the Campaign Setting supplements for Pathfinder, but they should generally follow the above model. Details on those packages will be released in the near future. In addition, as the Pathfinder catalog continues to grow, we'll be creating new add-on packages to incorporate the new material.
-Lone Wolf Development Staff
Thanks for the update Rob - very much like how you have packaged these.
AJC
Sounds awesome. I can see myself purchasing everything you offer for PF.
It looks as though everything will be available in September!
Can't wait to see the bundled deals.
Awesome! Looking forward to seeing the new items in September. I think the pricing is fair. While there is a lot happening in the next couple of months you have bundled a couple of years worth up added items into fairly priced packages.
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+1
I agree -- that pricing seems quite reasonable. If I didn't mind the DRM or Windows-only issues, I could see myself buying almost all of it. (Probably not the orcs/halfings/??? as those races don't interest me much!)
How do you plan to license the material developed from the OGL and non-OGL portions of the source? For example, will a user be allowed to create a derivative of something you've coded for, say, the APG, and then provide that to their gaming group? Their local game store group? The group on the university campus that has an RPG club? Their Facebook friends? (You can see how the circle gets larger each time, right? :))
You're currently on HL 3.6, right? When does the program become something that has to be purchased again? Will that be HL 4.0? When that happens, will the datasets need to be purchased again as well?
As I said, this sounds like a solid product for Windows users who don't mind DRM. (Which is most people, I think, as long as it "just works".)
How do you plan to license the material developed from the OGL and non-OGL portions of the source? For example, will a user be allowed to create a derivative of something you've coded for, say, the APG, and then provide that to their gaming group? Their local game store group? The group on the university campus that has an RPG club? Their Facebook friends? (You can see how the circle gets larger each time, right? :))
If I'm understanding your question correctly, anyone can implement their own data files for Pathfinder and distribute them freely. The only requirement is that users have the core Pathfinder data package. This parallels the model begun by Wizards with the release of D&D 3rd Edition, wherein all you needed was the Player's Handbook and you could write all the custom material you wanted on top of it.
All of Hero Lab's user-created data files are simple XML files. They are all built upon the mechanisms provided within the core game system package (in this case, Pathfinder). Users can freely share those files with each other by simply dropping them into the appropriate folder and reloading the game system. We even include a tool that bundles up a collection of user-added files into a single "import file" that can be installed by another user with a few mouse clicks - no need to know where to copy the files, so no risk of messing things up.
Many of our users have been leveraging this ability for a few years now, implementing the content from numerous splat books and adding their own house rules. There are even a couple of user sites where these files are hosted and shared with the community at large.
If I failed to answer your question, please clarify and I'll do my best to get you an answer.
You're currently on HL 3.6, right? When does the program become something that has to be purchased again? Will that be HL 4.0? When that happens, will the datasets need to be purchased again as well?
That won't ever happen. We're on V3.6 now and we've never asked anyone to pay for any upgrades in almost four years (since V1.0 was released). There have been two major version updates during that period (V2.0 and V3.0), as well as numerous minor version updates (V3.1, V3.2, etc.).
Basically, users are purchasing access to the *content* and paying a few bucks extra to get the core engine with their initial purchase. Since the content is essentially static (sans errata), there's nothing to re-purchase. The only time a new cost arises is when the user elects to purchase additional content.
There are two caveats to the above. The first is when a publisher releases a brand new edition of a game system. If the changes are substantial, we need to completely overhaul the data files for the new edition, resulting in the need for users to purchase new data files for new edition. This is no different than the publisher charging for a new edition of the game system and is tied to that event. We're going through this process right now as Green Ronin prepares to release Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition.
The second caveat is when we release specialized versions of the product for new platforms. For example, if we released an iPad version of Hero Lab, it would represent a completely new platform with a significant development cost associated. In that situation, we would likely need to charge some reasonable amount to help offset the development costs involved. However, that's generally expected for software and represents an elective option for users. There would be no cost to continue using Hero Lab on Windows.
Hopefully, that helps to eliminate any potential confusion about how things work. :-)
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There are two caveats to the above. The first is when a publisher releases a brand new edition of a game system. If the changes are substantial, we need to completely overhaul the data files for the new edition, resulting in the need for users to purchase new data files for new edition. This is no different than the publisher charging for a new edition of the game system and is tied to that event. We're going through this process right now as Green Ronin prepares to release Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition.
That brings up a question for me. I have the 2nd edition, and don't really plan to upgrade to the 3rd edition anytime soon. Will HL continue to function for the 2nd edition ruleset? Would it be simply a matter of not upgrading the license for the new data files? Or would you be pulling the 2nd edition data files off your server, and removing that license from those who choose not to purchase the new edition?
That brings up a question for me. I have the 2nd edition, and don't really plan to upgrade to the 3rd edition anytime soon. Will HL continue to function for the 2nd edition ruleset? Would it be simply a matter of not upgrading the license for the new data files? Or would you be pulling the 2nd edition data files off your server, and removing that license from those who choose not to purchase the new edition?
The M&M 2E data files will continue to function normally, and there is nothing you need to do. The M&M 3E files will be a separate game system option that you can simply choose to ignore. We won't be taking anything away from anyone. :-)
Looks like a solid plan. Thank you for the information.
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How do you plan to license the material developed from the OGL and non-OGL portions of the source? For example, will a user be allowed to create a derivative of something you've coded for, say, the APG, and then provide that to their gaming group? Their local game store group? The group on the university campus that has an RPG club? Their Facebook friends? (You can see how the circle gets larger each time, right? :))If I'm understanding your question correctly, anyone can implement their own data files for Pathfinder and distribute them freely. The only requirement is that users have the core Pathfinder data package. This parallels the model begun by Wizards with the release of D&D 3rd Edition, wherein all you needed was the Player's Handbook and you could write all the custom material you wanted on top of it.
I think we're close. :)
Suppose I take a class from the APG (or Core, for that matter) and tweak it a bit. For example, I have a couple of extra rage abilities for barbarians IMC so I would want to add them and then provide the changed XML to my players. The OGC stuff is just that: Open Game Content. So I expect I can do whatever I want with it and redistribute my modifications to the barbarian class...
But what if I want to add additional deities to the available list? Deities are not OGC (they're product identity for Golarion AFAIK) so if I made a change to the list, would I be allowed to distribute those changes to my players? Or perhaps when I make changes like that, all of my modifications are in separate files so that the original dataset isn't touched at all? So distributing my tweaks really means just that: I'm only distributing my changes and not the original dataset? (Sort of like distributing a diff as part of a patch file.)
It really does sound like a good deal, especially after hearing about how a single purchase is good "forever", barring changes in platform or significant version differences of the campaign content. Good job! (And I agree with the other poster: let us know when you have iPad/OSX support.)
What about those of us who have already purchased the product and are currently supporting the company/product. (would you like my customer number?)
I have already got the added beastry (at extra cost) am I now going to be worse off than someone who buys it after you sort out your pricing?
The price of the Bestiary add-on isn't changing - it'll still be $14.99, as Rob describes above. We're simply announcing the pricing of our other Pathfinder packages now.
What about those of us who have already purchased the product and are currently supporting the company/product. (would you like my customer number?)
I have already got the added beastry (at extra cost) am I now going to be worse off than someone who buys it after you sort out your pricing?
Nothing has changed for anything that we've already released, except for incorporating new content into the core package. You'll be receiving that new material for *free* as part of a future update. Beyond that, you'll be able to buy the new add-ons at the same price as everyone else. So those buying now have no advantage over those who have purchased in the past.
Suppose I take a class from the APG (or Core, for that matter) and tweak it a bit. For example, I have a couple of extra rage abilities for barbarians IMC so I would want to add them and then provide the changed XML to my players. The OGC stuff is just that: Open Game Content. So I expect I can do whatever I want with it and redistribute my modifications to the barbarian class...
Exactly.
But what if I want to add additional deities to the available list? Deities are not OGC (they're product identity for Golarion AFAIK) so if I made a change to the list, would I be allowed to distribute those changes to my players? Or perhaps when I make changes like that, all of my modifications are in separate files so that the original dataset isn't touched at all? So distributing my tweaks really means just that: I'm only distributing my changes and not the original dataset? (Sort of like distributing a diff as part of a patch file.)
All user-created data files are completely separate from the core data package we distribute. When you share your files with others, you are only sharing your custom content. Anyone who wishes to use those files must already have the core package, as your "add-on" content is useless without the core package.
This makes it possible for users to share and co-mingle their custom content. We expect users who want to add content for various 3PP supplements to do so, and this allows them to co-mingle their own house content with content for 3PP supplements.
Does that help clarify?
Danm i wish i was a windows user sometimes.
Rob are there no plans on the horizon to make Hero lab for mac or as you said yourself Iphone(ipod)/ Ipad?
/pray
Rob are there no plans on the horizon to make Hero lab for mac or as you said yourself Iphone(ipod)/ Ipad?
We are hard at work on a native Mac port of Hero Lab. A couple weeks ago, we reached the first of four major milestones along that path. Barring major surprises, we're expecting to have Hero Lab for the Mac late this year.
We're doing the Mac port in a way that will allow us to subsequently port to the iPad in reasonably short order. So, assuming all goes well, we'll also have an option for the iPad early next year.
In the interim, it is possible to run Hero Lab on a Mac using Bootcamp or one of the virtualization products (e.g. VMWare Fusion, Parallels, or Virtual Box). Granted, this requires you to also have a copy of Windows to install. However, this approach works extremely well. In fact, we run Hero Lab on 4-year-old Mac Minis under Parallels at all tradeshows, since they are so easy to transport. :-)
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Danm i wish i was a windows user sometimes.
Dude, bite your tongue!
<Just kidding. Mostly :) >
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@Rob: That's great news about the OSX port! If it's something that'll make it easier to move to the iPad, then it must not be something like WINE. Which means I'm seriously interested in this development!
Rob you just made my day!!!!
An other question, if you as i own the windows version for this fine program will you be able to use that on the mac or will you have to buy it again, for the work you have done making it for mac?
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Another question for Rob and Paizo:
Some of the books you are including in the Player Companion Add-On's are 3.5 ruleset and contain feats, prestige classes, etc that will require at least a minor amount of tweaking (changing skills reqs for pclasses for example). Will these changes be official updates from Paizo as errata or are they going to be "on the fly" changes by Lone Wolf to adapt the material?
Some of the books you are including in the Player Companion Add-On's are 3.5 ruleset...will these changes be official updates from Paizo as errata or are they going to be "on the fly" changes by Lone Wolf to adapt the material?
Same question for the first four Adventure Paths, which are included in the core HeroLab package.
Almost had me until you got into the companion stuff. While I know I can ignore it (I think that's called a strawman) to me the value decreases a bit if I have to purchase each individual block of races from the companion(s). I honestly believe that Races, and a few feats shouldn't be all that expensive to add in, thus the pricing of it (more than Free) to me doesn't seem worth it.
To be completely fair, I tend to scratch/hiss at the idea of paid character generators anyway..but as a bit of a good thing if I WAS going to purchase one, it would probably be Hero Lab.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Almost had me until you got into the companion stuff. While I know I can ignore it (I think that's called a strawman) to me the value decreases a bit if I have to purchase each individual block of races from the companion(s). I honestly believe that Races, and a few feats shouldn't be all that expensive to add in, thus the pricing of it (more than Free) to me doesn't seem worth it.
To be completely fair, I tend to scratch/hiss at the idea of paid character generators anyway..but as a bit of a good thing if I WAS going to purchase one, it would probably be Hero Lab.
Speaking as someone who bought Herolab (and WILL be getting the add ons), I believe you can still program them in yourself. I disagree with you on the price point, as well as the expence.
I put my work out on google docs because it's a) sporatic, b) just me and c) not worth much.
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Almost had me until you got into the companion stuff. While I know I can ignore it (I think that's called a strawman) to me the value decreases a bit if I have to purchase each individual block of races from the companion(s). I honestly believe that Races, and a few feats shouldn't be all that expensive to add in, thus the pricing of it (more than Free) to me doesn't seem worth it.
To be completely fair, I tend to scratch/hiss at the idea of paid character generators anyway..but as a bit of a good thing if I WAS going to purchase one, it would probably be Hero Lab.
Just pointing out, the pricing for the Companion packs are for bundles of three books, not each individualy. Working out to about $1.66 per book.
If that's still too much, feats and traits are easy to add yourself.
You should also mention the secondary license, it's been very handy. (and about to get handier as upgrade the laptop to windows 7 (fingers crossed).
Thanks for the suggestion. I just did this over in the "Product" forum for Hero Lab, since I figured that would be more visible to everyone in the months to come. For anyone interested, you'll find the post over here.
An other question, if you as i own the windows version for this fine program will you be able to use that on the mac or will you have to buy it again, for the work you have done making it for mac?
This still remains to be determined. Our *goal* with the Mac is to have it be interchangeable with the Windows version (read: no extra cost). But we're not yet sure whether that's feasible. That will be ascertained a bit further down the line, after we get more of the Mac port completed.
Whatever we do, we won't require a complete re-purchase. If we can't have them be interchangeable, there might be a "conversion" cost to switch from Windows to Mac. But that would be a one-time thing and cover all the material you've purchased access to with a single flat cost. As we get closer to having the port completed, we'll be able to get a handle on these details and will announce them to everyone.
The reason I used the iPad as an example above is because the App Store requires us to adopt a completely different model from desktop applications. In addition, the nature of the iPad could require us to partition the product up in a different way in order to make it work well.
All sounds good!
Man, there's a lot of stuff to spend money on right now, but I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting for a bit after Gencon on some of it!
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An other question, if you as i own the windows version for this fine program will you be able to use that on the mac or will you have to buy it again, for the work you have done making it for mac?This still remains to be determined. Our *goal* with the Mac is to have it be interchangeable with the Windows version (read: no extra cost). But we're not yet sure whether that's feasible. That will be ascertained a bit further down the line, after we get more of the Mac port completed.
Whatever we do, we won't require a complete re-purchase. If we can't have them be interchangeable, there might be a "conversion" cost to switch from Windows to Mac. But that would be a one-time thing and cover all the material you've purchased access to with a single flat cost. As we get closer to having the port completed, we'll be able to get a handle on these details and will announce them to everyone.
The reason I used the iPad as an example above is because the App Store requires us to adopt a completely different model from desktop applications. In addition, the nature of the iPad could require us to partition the product up in a different way in order to make it work well.
My Interest in this Is not a Mac version per say, But the ability to use my PC version to make them and bring my character to the iPad version for mobility to conventions. feasibility in that?
My Interest in this Is not a Mac version per say, But the ability to use my PC version to make them and bring my character to the iPad version for mobility to conventions. feasibility in that?
That's exactly the model that we're ultimately working towards.
What about iPhone, will it work on there or only the iPad?
Or even a mobile os with a larger install base than Apple, ie, Android?
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Or even a mobile os with a larger install base than Apple, ie, Android?
I don't want to get into a debate, but I'll point out that iPhone + iPod Touch total sales is still higher than Android. Android does beat out iPhone alone, but it does not beat out the entire install base of the smaller iDevices. (I'm not counting iPad's).
Another thing I'll point out is that Apple can either sell or give away an app, but they can't/won't share data with the software vendors for purposes of licensing. For example, I bought some language software (Fluenz). They wanted to make a iPod/iPad app to go along with their software, but they only wanted folks who purchased the full software to be able to get the app. Because all software for the iDevices go thru the App Store, there is no way for them to distribute an app only to licensed users, so they stopped development of the app.
In the case of HeroLab, when it comes to an iPod/iPad app, it'll probably either have to be free to everyone or pay for everyone (including current users).
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Or even a mobile os with a larger install base than Apple, ie, Android?
Though that would be great for those users, you may have to wait awhile for it. Few reason why
Android App market is still not even close as good as the Apple mobile app market.
Pirating is a much larger problem with the Android then it is for the iPhone/iPad, and we all know how Lone Wolf Development reacts to pirating *One of the worse DRM systems*.
From what I understand *May be wrong here* The different versions of the Android OS don't work well together and not all phone developers give an update to the latest OS, and there are sporadic Android OS versions out there on phones which makes it hard to develop for.
I don't want to incite a conflict over which is better among the diverse range of handheld options. :-)
Trying to squeeze the power of Hero Lab into something with the display size and horsepower of the iPhone (or comparative lack of each) is probably an order of magnitude more complex than supporting a device like the iPad. So we're going to INITIALLY stick with slates and devices like the iPad. Once we have a solid offering coming together for slates, we'll move on to smaller devices like the iPhone.
In addition to Apple, we are actively monitoring developments with both the Android and the possibility of Windows slates/phones. We would love to be able to support all these platforms simultaneously, but we're a tiny company and don't have the resources to accomplish that. So we're going to be proceeding in a systematic manner, basing our strategy on the best data we can get our hands on.
Our current development for the Mac will enable us to more quickly support the iPad. However, we have NOT chosen the iPad over other platforms. We are simply positioning ourselves to support the iPad more easily. As we get more clarity into the mobile devices market, and new slates for Android and Windows are released, we'll be looking closely at those opportunities as well.
Rest assured, once we have concrete information about which handheld platforms we'll be supporting, and in which order, we'll definitely let everyone know. :-)
Quick note: I leave for the airport in less than an hour for GenCon. So I will be signing off for awhile. Feel free to post questions, but please be patient for answers. We'll get them to you as soon as we can, but it may not be practical until we get home from GenCon.
And for those of you attending GenCon this year, stop by and introduce yourselves! We'll be in booth 1417.
All great news for a already very satisfied Herolab user.
+1
I've found HL to be worth every penny, and I've only had a tech issue once, and I got a prompt and helpful reply on their boards!
All great news for a already very satisfied Herolab user.+1
I've found HL to be worth every penny, and I've only had a tech issue once, and I got a prompt and helpful reply on their boards!
Agreed. I checked out HL way back when it first came out and it was a bit clunky, I figured I'd check it out as it was polished up. Wow, it's incredible now, very happy with it.
Warning to all, If you have characters from the Beta Classes from the APG Test, Print them up before installing the latest update, because the new update removes the Beta Classes!
There should be a red warning message about this when you import the files - we also mentioned at the start of every APG class description that we'd be removing them once the play test period is up.
We're doing this because it lets us migrate peoples characters over automatically if they use the new APG add-on. Your old play test characters will be properly converted over to the new versions of the classes the first time you load them after activating the APG.