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I know that will probably change as things move forward, and we may have jumped the gun a bit in terms of when we released the Eyes of the Ten arc, but so far the available high-level adventures we have provided have generated almost no reported play, almost no discussion on paizo.com, and zero formal reviews.
For my local group we had to put our high-level characters on the shelf for quite a few months earlier this year because there was a stretch of time with no new Tier 10-11 adventures coming out. The earliest we could even think about Eyes of the Ten was after 2-04 came out.
Now we can finally get to the Tier 12 arc, which we will start this upcoming weekend.
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All I'm doing is home brew stuff until there's support through level 20. Even if I do run some short term game I prefer high level games. Low level stuff is way over done.That said....
I have no intention of ever raising the cap.
That's just me venting. I just get tired of low level stuff somtimes. There are a lot of good stuff out at all levels. I hope I didn't upset anyone.
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You are indicating to me that the data Erik and Josh are looking at appears to be valid. You aren't playing higher level (by choice) and what you are playing isn't getting reported. No need to raise the level cap. Which appears to be the current official position.
EDIT: And letting players self report is only an open invitation for abuse, so then you have to create a two step process which is actually more difficult and requires more work for everyone than the current system.
I do believe the data is valid, I'm not arguing that the actual data they have isn't valid...I'm arguing that we need more mods and/or slower leveling curve and a way for players to get previous games into the system when a GM does not enter them in. (see below....)
Nowhere in my statement did I say I wanted to raise the cap...I think 12 is fine. I simply used some of the other statements said around the OP's question and went other, but similar, directions with it.
You can designate one person to report all future and past scenarios. As coordinator you can report even ones you did not personally run.
That...is a helpful idea. Thanks, hadn't thought of that option...I'll have to take that as a to-do now, gathering all of our characters info and entering all that in I guess. Honestly though, good idea!
But why not increase the production of mods? If it's cost...I have a hard time going along with that one. I talked to quite a few people at GenCon that would love to write mods, even on a volunteer basis -- maybe you can have two categories of mods - free-written ones that are the "normal" mods, and paid-written ones that are more "Core" or "special" mods?
We value quality--both production quality and the quality of our stories--above all else. There are also significant calculations that have to be made behind the scenes in each scenario. Were we to open writing to anyone (we won't) then we'd still have to develop and edit everything written out of house which takes time, costs money, and simply won't happen because we wouldn't control the quality.
I hope that someday we *can* increase the internal production of the scenarios, but we need to see increased play, increased reporting, and further growth. The Society is growing *fast* right now--I'm actually surprised each week in our meeting where we go over the numbers just how much faster sign-ups are happening now than a year ago--but we're not yet to a point where we can justify the increase of scenarios.
It seems a lot of people want more more MORE right now, but we have to be cautious, smart, and careful when it comes to growing the Society. No sense over-expanding the Society out of existence.
My point to more mods is that I can honestly say at the moment that our group has almost zero mods available to us ...
Luckily new scenarios release every month. ;-)
I see this as fairly easy to compensate for: 1.)Change a few numbers in each scenario to fix the gold - cheap and easy since everything is PDF and 2.) make it so that only characters created as of XX-XX-XX date start on this new leveling system. Yes, you may get people that have a bit more wealth than others on occasion, but that won't happen for long as those people will level quickly. Making this a non-linear leveling curve would help things along on that aspect even moreso, and probably make the whole world fall into peaceful dance...or at least a chunk of us happy for our characters..
What you have described is anything but easy.
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I think that you could make an areguement if you were forced into story archs that railroaded you to the top that you needed to move beyond the cap, but that doesn't really happen.
It's cool to me that all levels of characters make a differance, and the way that by the time you get to cap, you are really treated as a mover and shaker.
I'm looking forward to what might be in the future.
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We value quality--both production quality and the quality of our stories--above all else. There are also significant calculations that have to be made behind the scenes in each scenario. Were we to open writing to anyone (we won't) then we'd still have to develop and edit everything written out of house which takes time, costs money, and simply won't happen because we wouldn't control the quality.
Josh, but the Open Call is still going on right? You are still open to any writer submitting quality Scenarios?
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You can designate one person to report all future and past scenarios. As coordinator you can report even ones you did not personally run.That...is a helpful idea. Thanks, hadn't thought of that option...I'll have to take that as a to-do now, gathering all of our characters info and entering all that in I guess. Honestly though, good idea!
Yeah I am helpful...sometimes..;)
That said, this is not an idea orginating from me, this has been going on since day 1.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Josh, but the Open Call is still going on right? You are still open to any writer submitting quality Scenarios?
Yes, in fact we have a few scenarios in writing now that I'm really excited for, all proposed and assigned through the open call process.
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My point to more mods is that I can honestly say at the moment that our group has almost zero mods available to us ...Luckily new scenarios release every month. ;-)
And if you love your current character's so much that you don't want to play something other than your Society's character, there's nothing stopping you and your group from playing them through a Pathfinder Module to kill time.
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...I have heard similar concerns from other players reaching as early as 8th or 9th. "OMG I only have 9 mods left!"
Heh... I was charting out a shopping list for my second PC, who's reached Level 3 in three weeks, and am already dreading having to end her career after so few modules.
As for screwing up the wealth-by-level track...
The wealth-by-level track is already screwed up. If you're fortunate enough to play up a Sub-Tier or unfortunate enough to be dragged down a Sub-Tier, your PC's wealth is not on track. Point being...
And if we were to ever change the pace of leveling, we'd have to retire everything released before the moment we changed the pace as the wealth-per-scenario is tied into the rate at which you level vs. gold per character level.
No you wouldn't, because it's currently not tied together in practice.
Also... by bringing in a "diminishing levelling pace per module," it would keep PCs from quickly graduating out of the key middle Tier bands, which makes table-forming easier. If, say, an 18-module PC were in the same Sub-Tier as a 6-module PC, that would make groups more easily formed.
This also means that a group can more easily induct new players, as a brand-new PC could much more easily play with a group that has, say, twelve modules under their belts.
Oh, right! Don't forget that the more modules a player can play with his favorite PC(s), that's more games he'll want to play overall, which translates into more modules sold.
-Matt
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Devil's advocate: how does leveling ruin your roleplay? If you're, for example, playing a mournful goth elf with the Governator's voice, how does the possibility of going from level 1 to level 2 cause you to lose the ability to roleplay that character?
The quickness of leveling is, frankly, a myth. It takes you 18-20 months to hit the cap if you play every single scenario the month in which it is released. Considering there are many groups that finish an AP in less time (up to levels 16-18), I'm not so sure that hitting level 12 in 20 months is "quick."
Now I can certainly appreciate that one of the things you can sacrifice in an organized play environment, especially if you play different groups every time, is that story and character cohesion you can get from playing with the same people every session. Hopefully, though, you've created a character you enjoy playing with interesting rules or character quirks and you just play your PC the way you want to play your PC at every session. :-)
I've never had a problem roleplaying in any adventure in any game--roleplaying is largely up to the player, even if you have to create the opportunities for it to happen.
The error in your logic is that you assume someone starting at exactly when the modules came out and then progressing at the LIMIT at which the modules are released. Our group in Houston has half a dozen players who could easily be 12th level in only a year of play. We started playing PFS just about 1 year ago and we have seriously slowed down the last 2 months. What happened was people started hitting 6-8 and our play opportunities started to narrow. We were to low for higher tiered mods sometimes with no lower tiers written for them and to high as a full group (6-7) for some of the lower tiered stuff that stopped at 4-5 or 5-6. So we played higher when possible and were sometimes forced due to lack of available higher tier mods to start 2nd and 3rd characters. We have at least 3 or 4 people that have over 12 levels worth of characters. It is simply that their highest is 7th or 8th (11th for me) and then they have a 4th or 5th and a 1st or 2nd. Admittedly sometimes people wanted to test out the PF take on a class and voluntarily elected to start a new character even when a higher mod was available for us to play but the point is our little group alone has multiple people easily capable of having been 12th in less than a year. I personally did 8 rounds at Gencon. In one weekend I did one quarter of my primaries life cycle. Some in my local group might be a bit cheesed now because I am now basically out of play for their primes now.
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Our first level 12s popped into existence about 22 months after the campaign began. That doesn't seem too quick to me. And if we were to ever change the pace of leveling, we'd have to retire everything released before the moment we changed the pace as the wealth-per-scenario is tied into the rate at which you level vs. gold per character level.Has slowing down the pace of levelling been discussed at all? Thirty-three scenarios from birth till retirement is just too few!
-Matt
I don't know why actually retiring would be necessary. Simply release a new AR with the mod. It is not actually necessary to rewrite the module. The wealth you receive in a mod is abstract anyway. I mean if a DM say adds 1 or 2 extra mooks to a fight to challenge the party he does not add two extra master work chain shirts and long swords to the AR gold. You simply reduce the gold by a third on the new AR as you adjust the scale to 4 mods a level. I feel 3 is a bit to fast really. Although not a huge difference 4 feels more accurate at least to me. Also lets not forget some of the year zero mods are already pulled from play and most current players have already played the year zero mods and thus unable to replay for credit those mods anyway.
People need to understand that the rate of leveling and the level cap have to be balanced for everyone, whether you were there on the release of the first season 0 scenario, you started with the release of the first season 1 scenario, or if you just started last month with the release of the first season 2 scenario.
Unless you started playing PFS games within the past few months, if you have been able to play every single scenario released you could have one 12th level character that is also half way through the Tier 12 arc and one character that is 9th level plus one scenario towards 10th. That is in 25 months of playing. In that same 25 months you could have completed four APs if played as they were released and have 4 characters around 16-18th level. Tell me again why the PFS advancement rate is too fast?
The real problem is not with the advancement rate, it is with the people who are able to play much more often than the average player. It reminds me of my high school days where during school we were lucky to be able to play one 5-6 hour session every weekend during the school year, but in the summer there would be those weekend-long gaming sessions where playing 8-10 hours a day would not be uncommon plus maybe a session or two during the week because there was no school.
The people that get to play much more often than the rest of us need to get over themselves and stop whining about how there is not enough for them to play and stop making those of us who do not play often feel uncomfortable around the hardcore players and stop making us think maybe PFS play is not for us.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I don't know why actually retiring would be necessary. Simply release a new AR with the mod. It is not actually necessary to rewrite the module. The wealth you receive in a mod is abstract anyway. I mean if a DM say adds 1 or 2 extra mooks to a fight to challenge the party he does not add two extra master work chain shirts and long swords to the AR gold. You simply reduce the gold by a third on the new AR as you adjust the scale to 4 mods a level. I feel 3 is a bit to fast really. Although not a huge difference 4 feels more accurate at least to me. Also lets not forget some of the year zero mods are already pulled from play and most current players have already played the year zero mods and thus unable to replay for credit those mods anyway.
It's not that simple. While the presentation of a wealth in the scenarios and on chronicles seems abstracted, those "extra master work chain shirts" are calculated into the total, and NPCs and general treasure are all accounted for when calculating what rewards PCs receive. Not only can a GM not add 1 or 2 extra mooks to an encounter within legal society play, but doing so would throw the wealth of the scenario off under the current system. There's a lot of behind the scenes balancing that went into all 62 existing scenarios to make them all roughly equal, and it would take more time and redesigning of entire adventures to convert them to a new system than we have the manpower to invest in the endeavor. You can't have it both ways; either you have three years' worth of older scenarios to play, or you get a new system of wealth and xp progression.
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He didn't say that he didn't play PFS, just that his access was limited. I haven't been able to play every PFS module either, I work on weekends so that means conventions are out unless I schedule vacation time on them.The real problem is not with the advancement rate, it is with the people who are able to play much more often than the average player.I'm not sure how you can make this statement if you don't actually participate in Pathfinder Society organized play.
I think it was Kyle who pointed out a few weeks ago that Enevhar Aldarion doesn't actually have a PFS character per his profile. That's what Kyle is referring to.
I get some play but not enough to have brought a character past 7th. And I started a 2nd character because there were times when only low level play was available.
Having been a veteran of Living City, Living Arcanis, Living Greyhawk, and Legends of the Shining Jewel, I can say that the cap of PFS is a very good idea. It'll do much from keeping this game from being dominated by veteran players with god level characters.
I'm in agreement. There's also the element that PFS is supposed to give players a place to get to know the system and want to play more Pathfinder at home. For me personally, playing the different characters I get to in PFS (because they don't last that long) really makes me want to play in my home game more. That could just be me though.
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I think it was Kyle who pointed out a few weeks ago that Enevhar Aldarion doesn't actually have a PFS character per his profile. That's what Kyle is referring to.He didn't say that he didn't play PFS, just that his access was limited. I haven't been able to play every PFS module either, I work on weekends so that means conventions are out unless I schedule vacation time on them.The real problem is not with the advancement rate, it is with the people who are able to play much more often than the average player.I'm not sure how you can make this statement if you don't actually participate in Pathfinder Society organized play.
Exactly. It's not meant to be an attack, far from it. I fail to see how someone (anyone) who doesn't actually play in the organized play campaign can definitely diagnose and discuss its problems.
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For me personally, playing the different characters I get to in PFS (because they don't last that long) really makes me want to play in my home game more. That could just be me though.
Same here except it makes me wish I had a home game. As someone with character ADHD, I welcome the opportunity to have several active characters at the same time. It's too bad we don't have any decent GM's in this area... *shifty eyes*
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Same here except it makes me wish I had a home game. As someone with character ADHD, I welcome the opportunity to have several active characters at the same time. It's too bad we don't have any decent GM's in this area... *shifty eyes*
You could GM yourself in a solo game.
Oh wait you said you wanted a good GM. Nevermind, I understand your problem now.
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For me, I have been playing in PFS since Aug 08, I have 3 Characters, a Level 5, a Level 2 and a Level 1 and I have GMed 22 times, so for me personally I have no issues with the level 12 cap. Though I will say that until I moved back to the States recently I have not gotten to play other then at GenCon UK 08 and GenCon Indy 09. Once I moved here I quickly set up a Local PFS group and now run a game every other week and we only have 13 sessions under our belt since June 19 this year.
I will say one thing, Since I am running and coordinating the Local PFS and running a Home game I am starting to get GMed out!
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And if you love your current character's so much that you don't want to play something other than your Society's character, there's nothing stopping you and your group from playing them through a Pathfinder Module to kill time.My point to more mods is that I can honestly say at the moment that our group has almost zero mods available to us ...Luckily new scenarios release every month. ;-)
And that is exactly what we have done, but the appeal of the organized play is what many of our players like, and I don't think it's a bad thing for us to want more of a good thing, is it? I mean this is actually a topic about wanting to see/play more of something good...not bashing something we don't like!
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I don't know why actually retiring would be necessary. Simply release a new AR with the mod. It is not actually necessary to rewrite the module. The wealth you receive in a mod is abstract anyway. I mean if a DM say adds 1 or 2 extra mooks to a fight to challenge the party he does not add two extra master work chain shirts and long swords to the AR gold. You simply reduce the gold by a third on the new AR as you adjust the scale to 4 mods a level. I feel 3 is a bit to fast really. Although not a huge difference 4 feels more accurate at least to me. Also lets not forget some of the year zero mods are already pulled from play and most current players have already played the year zero mods and thus unable to replay for credit those mods anyway.It's not that simple. While the presentation of a wealth in the scenarios and on chronicles seems abstracted, those "extra master work chain shirts" are calculated into the total, and NPCs and general treasure are all accounted for when calculating what rewards PCs receive. Not only can a GM not add 1 or 2 extra mooks to an encounter within legal society play, but doing so would throw the wealth of the scenario off under the current system. There's a lot of behind the scenes balancing that went into all 62 existing scenarios to make them all roughly equal, and it would take more time and redesigning of entire adventures to convert them to a new system than we have the manpower to invest in the endeavor. You can't have it both ways; either you have three years' worth of older scenarios to play, or you get a new system of wealth and xp progression.
FYI I am fully aware how the NPCs are equiped is used to calculate the wealth on an AR. The point of the wealth being abstract however is the AR is not calculated on EXACTLY what is used or recovered in a module. In other words lets say a particular encounter has 8 thugs ambushing the party and the mod shows they each have 1 alchemists fire. The wealth provided on the AR does not change regardless of whether the thugs use those alchemists fire or not. Also if players drink all potions recovered from dead NPCs in a module the DM does not then lower the AR gold to reflect the party drinking 1,500 in potions found. Thus the actual wealth is abstract on the AR. It does not LITERALLY account for all wealth otherwise you would be deducting money for each and every potion or expendable used by the NPCs during a mod which would mean literally NEVER receiving max gold on an AR. Thus YES the wealth present on each and every AR is ABSTRACT. Not literal.
I was unaware that you were restricted to playing the mods "exactly as is". It was our understanding the GM had the freedom to adjust even in a small way the mod as needed. Don't get me wrong, I realize you can not rewrite the mod. Our local group does however add extra mooks or add a level to the BBEG on a regular basis. We usually seat 6 or 7 players and this is the only way to get even close to challenging us. Nothing ever changes the wealth or treasure in any way. Just simply provides balance against our average party size. After about the first dozen mods we routinely devastated we had to start adjusting the fights to provide a challenge. Keep in mind this is because like I said we almost always seat 6 if not seven. The encounters do seem fairly well balanced for a party of four or five though.
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I've posted in the past about some of the issues involved with the current leveling system, as well as the level cap. I'll try to dig it out shortly and repost. :)
That being said, I'm not sure that the database is going to exactly accurately reflect everything that is going on with PCs or with players. Just in looking at my own stuff, there are a TON of scenarios that I've played that aren't showing up and, up until a few moments ago, I'd forgotten to level my characters in the database from when they went from 7 to 12 and 2 to 7. And we don't even play that often. Unfortunately, I can't really think of a more reliable way of tracking or keeping it updated, unless you maybe allow players to report modules that they've played but don't seem to have been reported.
I'll admit, we haven't played the high level modules yet because we were trying to pin down a good judge as well as arrange to have a few friends who live far away play with us as well. That being said, we might try to play them at DCV on Oct. 22-24.
-Athelis
AR
For those unfamiliar with past OP programs, an AR is what we call our chronicle sheet. Just to make sure we're clear.
That being said, I'm not sure that the database is going to exactly accurately reflect everything ...
I'm not sure why this keeps coming up, but the database isn't used to track your character's level or stats or anything. It's a tool for us to know where people are playing, how often they play, and how many people are playing. If someone should lose their character in a fire, we would be able to partially reconstruct their PC via the reporting database, but the database isn't the final official record for your PC--your physical chronicle sheets are.
There is currently a disparity with reporting that we're attempting to solve. GM rewards certainly increased the rate of reporting and I think constantly telling people why it's important to report has as well (e.g., the more you report, the more people I know are playing, the more budget I get for Society things).
:-)
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I'm not sure why this keeps coming up, but the database isn't used to track your character's level or stats or anything.
While it may not explicitly track it, it could trivially derive character levels based on reported modules as well as TPA to at least model your player base somewhat. Slightly more difficult you could infer some stuff about the character based on the PA they did (or didn't) earn since you'd know their level, faction and the DC of the challenge they faced.
Of course, you probably already know that because you get a report spit out on a weekly basis :)
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I was unaware that you were restricted to playing the mods "exactly as is". It was our understanding the GM had the freedom to adjust even in a small way the mod as needed. Don't get me wrong, I realize you can not rewrite the mod. Our local group does however add extra mooks or add a level to the BBEG on a regular basis.
Interestingly I can't seem to find a reference in the Guide about this. Maybe my search is weak today. The closest I could find is:
They may never, however, gain additional PA, experience, or gold beyond the limitations of the scenario’s chronicle sheet or the basic Pathfinder Society Organized Play rules.
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I was unaware that you were restricted to playing the mods "exactly as is". It was our understanding the GM had the freedom to adjust even in a small way the mod as needed. Don't get me wrong, I realize you can not rewrite the mod. Our local group does however add extra mooks or add a level to the BBEG on a regular basis.Interestingly I can't seem to find a reference in the Guide about this. Maybe my search is weak today. The closest I could find is:
They may never, however, gain additional PA, experience, or gold beyond the limitations of the scenario’s chronicle sheet or the basic Pathfinder Society Organized Play rules.
Mark posted about this recently
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I would give Enevhar the benefit of the doubt, just because as a member of a household of PFS Judges, we run into a lot of PFS players who never registered their characters, or even set up a messageboard account although we try to assist them in such as much as possible. It's quite possible that he's played PFS and never registered his characters.
Not that it's fully relevant to anything in this thread, but it was Enevhar himself who said in a different thread that he's not playing Pathfinder of any sort.
No, I said I have not played in an official PFS game that would require the registering of a character.
Now stop harassing me.
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No, I said I have not played in an official PFS game that would require the registering of a character.
Now stop harassing me.
I'm sorry you feel harassed, but my previous statement(s) still apply. Without jumping into the pit and getting dirty, it's impossible to properly assess the problems within this organized play campaign. Play a character to level 10 or GM a few dozen slots, then it will quickly become apparent that the guide doesn't always apply as written. GM's and organizers have to think on their feet, plan for as many situations as possible, and react to the craziness introduced by dozens of very intelligent players. That is the reality of organized play.
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I'm sorry you feel harassed, but my previous statement(s) still apply. Without jumping into the pit and getting dirty, it's impossible to properly assess the problems within this organized play campaign. Play a character to level 10 or GM a few dozen slots, then it will quickly become apparent that the guide doesn't always apply as written. GM's and organizers have to think on their feet, plan for as many situations as possible, and react to the craziness introduced by dozens of very intelligent players. That is the reality of organized play.No, I said I have not played in an official PFS game that would require the registering of a character.
Now stop harassing me.
+1
I am new to playing / GMing in PFS and it can be entertaining!
Sean
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Like the admins said, it's a numbers game. How many 12th level characters are there currently? No one knows exact numbers. If I had to guess right now, I'd say there are a hundred at the most. The admins only know if a Tier 12 scenario session has been reported, since I doubt they are tracking PC levels. Until a reporting threshold has been reached it doesn't make sense to plan to lift the cap. What will most likely happen is when the campaign has grown for a few more seasons and most of the active player base has a retired (completed a Tier 12 scenario series) PC, we'll see a "Retired PC Only" scenario offered at GenCon. Based upon participation we could see more "Retired PC Only" events. An across-the-board level cap raise though? I think it's wishful thinking.
It's like our mothers told us when we were kids--we have to finish our dinner or we don't get dessert. We can ask for dessert first, but Mom isn't going to fall for it. If she can plainly see were're not finishing our dinner, she's not going to waste her time making dessert. Mom worked hard to make dinner, we should eat it and be grateful. I leave it to you to imagine Mark Moreland wearing an apron and scolding a petulant gamer...
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It's like our mothers told us when we were kids--we have to finish our dinner or we don't get dessert. We can ask for dessert first, but Mom isn't going to fall for it. If she can plainly see were're not finishing our dinner, she's not going to waste her time making dessert. Mom worked hard to make dinner, we should eat it and be grateful. I leave it to you to imagine Mark Moreland wearing an apron and scolding a petulant gamer...
"Starving children in Africa only get to play levels 1-4 in second edition, you know. You should be grateful!"
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Hey guys I am another new PFS member, I have read the forum thus far and I know Mr Jacobs you're probably tired to death of this thread and it's circular arguments and I apologize in advance.
As a new player I appreciate the knowledge that there are always going to be those who are available to play lower level games with me. That being said I also find it disheartening that at no point in time will I ever get a chance to experiance life with a PFS character beyond 12. To be honest 12 is around the level I find things start going my way with characters, my powers pack a bit more umph and I have a good variety in my ability.
Having said that, I have played the level 20 obsene character and I can easily see why the cap isn't set there, and everything said earlier in this forum supports that as a general rule of thumb. But correct me if I am wrong, don't the PFS events announce what scenarios and teirs are going to be run at any given time? if so what would be the issue if a GM were to run a higher level scenario for people who had characters of that level? Is it those characters would earn to much prestige? would they throw the societies out of wack?
"I don't want to question, just understand"
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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...I also find it disheartening that at no point in time will I ever get a chance to experience life with a PFS character beyond 12. To be honest 12 is around the level I find things start going my way with characters, my powers pack a bit more umph and I have a good variety in my ability.
Samuel, I encourage you to check out the product pages for Academy of Secrets and Tomb of the Iron Medusa, specifically the paragraph after the ISBN number.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The problem is that writing higher level scenarios is more difficult and there are fewer and fewer players at those levels to spread the costs over.
Erik Mona said in this thread or another that if/ when there is enough demand for level 12+ PFS Paizo will add support for it.