Every time I think about taking a metamagic feat for my Sorcerer, I run into the following issues:
1) Everything other than Quicken Spell is a full round casting.
2) A metamagic feat coupled with a low level spell seems to be less effective than just casing a spell of the appropriate level.
I see a partial exception for Still Spell/Silent Spell; they're feats that would be useful for casting a spell if I were bound/gagged/both. However that seems like a very situational case. (For Eldritch Knight, Still Spell is wonderful, but that's also very situational.)
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If you're Arcane bloodline, you get castings that don't increase the time, which is a godsend.
Otherwise, I personally would stick with Still, Silent, and Quicken. Selective Spell from the APG is nice if your party doesn't like to cooperate with you, and extend is nice later for making hour/level spells last all day.
Outside of those, you can use various metamagic feats to make up for your limited spell selection. Intensify spell extends the damage dice limit of spells, meaning you can afford to take just a very small number of evocation spells, and when you need a big nuke, just metamagic it up.
An Intensified Empowered Lightning Bolt (6th level slot) might not be quite as good as Chain Lightning (6th level spell), but it's not by as wide a margin as you might think.
An arcane bloodline sorcerer would only see a difference in 2 of the save DC, while others get a difference of 3. The metamagic'd lightning bolt does up to 15d6 x 1.5 damage in a line, while chain lightning does up to 20d6 and jumps to other targets.
With smart spell selection, you can keep the spells you focus on as your higher level spells, and as backup, other types of spells that you can metamagic up in a jiffy just in case.
My Gnome Sorcerer focuses on illusion and enchantment spells, but will be able to bust out a significant evocation or necromancy spell if the situation really requires it.
A couple of comments. First many people think that the increased casting time is to one round. It is actually a Full Round Action and not a One Round Casting time. So when your turn comes up you get a give foot step if you want and you can cast the spell before or after that step. It goes off on your turn. Minor point but worth clarifying. So if you were not really going to move anyway the increased casting time does not matter.
As far as the feats themselves, they are all very situational. Quicken, Still, Silent, Heighten, Extend, Enlarge, and Widen can all have great uses at the time you need them (probably in the order listed.) Maximize and Empower are probably better off used via a rod and not as a feat.
Don't. Quicken is probably worth it in the long run, but obviously don't get it before 11th level.
Just invest in metamagic rods. They're pretty freaking awesome.
Every time I think about taking a metamagic feat for my Sorcerer, I run into the following issues:
1) Everything other than Quicken Spell is a full round casting.
2) A metamagic feat coupled with a low level spell seems to be less effective than just casing a spell of the appropriate level.I see a partial exception for Still Spell/Silent Spell; they're feats that would be useful for casting a spell if I were bound/gagged/both. However that seems like a very situational case. (For Eldritch Knight, Still Spell is wonderful, but that's also very situational.)
It really depends on the DM. I run sort of a magic mart game so players can usually just buy what they want assuming they are in a big enough city, but some DM's don't make things that easy. In those cases the item creation feats are worth more.
Metamagic is golden for sorcerers in that it frees later slots for more versatility. If you have Empower Spell and apply it to Fireball, you have an attack spell that is viable much longer, allowing you to take other spells on spell-levels 4 and 5.
If your GM allows 3.5 materials, consider a feat called Practical Metamagic, which cuts down the adjusted level by 1, making empower spell a +1 level instead of +2.
Oh yeah, if your GM allows 3.5 materials, grab "Wings of Flurry" from Races of the Dragon, and become a more powerful blaster than a wizard could ever hope for.
Metamagic feats, aside from Quicken, aren't worth it for anybody. They're especially not worth it for Sorcerers. Some of the metamagics from some of the 3.5 books are OK, but overall you're better off just casting a spell of the appropriate level. It's incredibly rare that Still or Silence Spell will actually be useful, and mathematically Empower and especially Maximize are worse than casting a +2 or +3 level spell, respectively. Extend Spell has limited usefulness once you actually get the spell slots to be able to afford to use it, since 10 min/level spells (and lower) will still run out too soon even Extended and hour/level spells won't even if they aren't Extended. I don't think I've ever even seen anyone ever take Widen or Enlarge, let alone use them.
Now, if you have access to Complete Arcane, some of the metamagics in there are actually useful. Energy Substitution, Black Lore of Moil, Lord of the Uttercold, Born of Three Thunders, and the various Sudden Metamagics are all pretty good, although Sudden Quicken is almost impossible to qualify for unless it's the only feat you actually want.
Metamagic feats, aside from Quicken, aren't worth it for anybody. They're especially not worth it for Sorcerers. Some of the metamagics from some of the 3.5 books are OK, but overall you're better off just casting a spell of the appropriate level. It's incredibly rare that Still or Silence Spell will actually be useful, and mathematically Empower and especially Maximize are worse than casting a +2 or +3 level spell, respectively. Extend Spell has limited usefulness once you actually get the spell slots to be able to afford to use it, since 10 min/level spells (and lower) will still run out too soon even Extended and hour/level spells won't even if they aren't Extended. I don't think I've ever even seen anyone ever take Widen or Enlarge, let alone use them.
Now, if you have access to Complete Arcane, some of the metamagics in there are actually useful. Energy Substitution, Black Lore of Moil, Lord of the Uttercold, Born of Three Thunders, and the various Sudden Metamagics are all pretty good, although Sudden Quicken is almost impossible to qualify for unless it's the only feat you actually want.
Yes, but the problem is that when your wizard has discounted metamagic feats she still has to figure out what to take for her wizard bonus feats. Craft Wondrous Item certainly has its uses, but other item creation feats? Really?
Yes, but the problem is that when your wizard has discounted metamagic feats she still has to figure out what to take for her wizard bonus feats. Craft Wondrous Item certainly has its uses, but other item creation feats? Really?
Craft Rod is better than all of the metamagic feats put together. Mainly because it allows you to make half-price Metamagic Rods for all of them, which let you apply Metamagic on the fly.
Craft Staff is also excellent, because staves are really good in Pathfinder (they're all rechargeable).
Yes, but the problem is that when your wizard has discounted metamagic feats she still has to figure out what to take for her wizard bonus feats. Craft Wondrous Item certainly has its uses, but other item creation feats? Really?Craft Rod is better than all of the metamagic feats put together. Mainly because it allows you to make half-price Metamagic Rods for all of them, which let you apply Metamagic on the fly.
Craft Staff is also excellent, because staves are really good in Pathfinder (they're all rechargeable).
I'd definitely put craft wondrous way above those, but that's largely due to the encouragement of my DMs to make crazy custom items.
To me that's the point of the craft feats, not getting extra money.
Call me crazy, but I've always thought that Heighten Spell is actually a good choice for a Sorcerer (and Metamagic feats, in general).
First of all, as pointed above by Thazar, casting a 'metamagized' version of a spell becomes a full-round action (for standard-action spells), not a 1-round casting time action. A huge difference, you are entitled only to a 5-ft. step in the round you cast it (which is still better than nothing), but the spell comes out immediately (not 1 round later).
Second, since a Sorcerer sometimes can be forced to use a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot anyway (spam multiple Fireballs against a tribe of Frost Giants, for example), having a higher DC and ability to bypass lower-level spell wards (like Globe of Invulnerability) is a boon - hey, if I really have to burn a 5th-level slot for a Fireball, let's make it a REAL 5th-level spell...
Third, a metamagic spell is often situational for casters who have to prepare spells (like Wizards do), since they have to decide in the morning (when they ready their daily allotment of spells) which spell (if any) should be prepared in its metamagized version. For those casters, preparing a metamagized spell is a choice which could be effectively a waste, if the situation which could benefit from such spell never occurs. It's ironic, since Wizards gain bonus feats which can be taken as Metamagic Feats but (IMHO) the benefits they gain is lesser than those gained by a Sorcerer (which has a more limited choice of Metamagic bonus feats - depending on his Bloodline - and few in numbers - if any, again depending on his Bloodline), since he can effectively decide 'on the spot' if the benefit of a metamagic version outweighs the cost of a higher slot.
Slightly OT, any time I hear the suggestion "don't take the feat, take the Metamagic Rod instead" I wonder why people then complain about the fabled 'Magic-Mart Syndrome'...
Just my 2c.
Also, empowered ray of enfeeblement.
Some metamagics from the APG have very nice options. I also like Extend Spell from the core.
Selective Spell emulates the Archmage shaping ability with a +1 level adjustment. It's available at 10th level at the earliest, though.
"Convince me that metamagic feats are worth taking."
[Lights dim. Eye-level hypnotic pinwheel activates.]
[chanting] "Metamagic feats are worth taking. Metamagic feats are worth taking. Metamagic feats are worth taking!"
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Ok, take a look at the next level of spells you get.
Count up how many of those spells you want. Is it more than the 2-5 you will get?
If so, meta-magic feats might be useful for you.
Example: If you can't take heroism as a buff spell, you might still be able to get an extended enlarge person to work, which will still be a big plus for your fighter.
They can also fill up slots that you may not be able to use due to low attributes. I have always wanted to build a caster who has to use metamagic feats to make the few spells he knows more versatile. It would work best as a sorcerer.
Since the advent of 3.0, I've played several spellcasters and I've played with dozens of spellcasters played by a dozen different players. In all that time I've only seen a couple players choose just one or two metamagic feats for all those casters. Almost everyone else managed to run their casters, even into mid-high levels, without ever taking any metamagic feats.
What's worse, I've often heard players at my table complain about the metamagic feats they've taken, often wishing they had taken something else. This is because "in theory" they might look OK, but once you try filling actual slots with them and put them to use "in practice", you find out just how limited and how useless most of them are. I have almost never seen any player with a spellcaster who has taken Metamagic feats and been able to use them effectively and who was happy that he took the feat.
Even the useful ones are of limited use, or circumstantial use.
Me, I would rather take feats I know I can use all the time. I would take Dodge, Toughness, Improved Inititative, Mobility, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Item Creation - all before I would take any core metamagic feats - although at high enough level I would consider Quicken Spell as a Wizard bonus feat.
Then we came up with a houserule system that lets everyone spontaneously apply metamagic on the fly without raising the spell level. Instead, it takes a little extra time and requires a concentration check. Once we did that, everyone started taking a few of these feats and getting good use out of them, but not game-breaking use, and metamagic became a useful option, and even a recommended one.
Metamagic feats, aside from Quicken, aren't worth it for anybody. They're especially not worth it for Sorcerers. Some of the metamagics from some of the 3.5 books are OK, but overall you're better off just casting a spell of the appropriate level. It's incredibly rare that Still or Silence Spell will actually be useful, and mathematically Empower and especially Maximize are worse than casting a +2 or +3 level spell, respectively. Extend Spell has limited usefulness once you actually get the spell slots to be able to afford to use it, since 10 min/level spells (and lower) will still run out too soon even Extended and hour/level spells won't even if they aren't Extended. I don't think I've ever even seen anyone ever take Widen or Enlarge, let alone use them.
Now, if you have access to Complete Arcane, some of the metamagics in there are actually useful. Energy Substitution, Black Lore of Moil, Lord of the Uttercold, Born of Three Thunders, and the various Sudden Metamagics are all pretty good, although Sudden Quicken is almost impossible to qualify for unless it's the only feat you actually want.
Yes, completely agree with Zurai. I have never been a fan of Metamagic feats because for the same reason that has been said it is better to cast a spell of the appropriate level. And I say this even with the new changes Paizo has implemented in getting rid of the increased casting time (with Arcane bloodline). Without that, Metamagic feats are completely not worthwhile (IMO).
And really, why I was not too happy how they handled the addition of the Archmage feats in the APG with the additional +1 spell level for the Elemental and Shaping feats.
As for Quicken, way too high of a plus spell level (+4) to make it worthwhile. I am not too happy about even a +1.
Now the only way I would take these feats is if the Epic level versions of these Metamagic feats were the same as 3.5. Where you can cast them at the same level (no additonal levels added to spell). Then I would take them just for the prereq. for the Epic level version.
But if Paizo comes out with an Epic level book or feats, remains to be seen.
Mostly I want a +1 level adjustment feat which does something nice and can be used often, for my Arcane bloodline Sorcerer. ^^
Mostly I want a +1 level adjustment feat which does something nice and can be used often, for my Arcane bloodline Sorcerer. ^^
That’s the thing, when you start adding spell levels when casting spells (even only a +1), you can’t use them often.
Like an example I used in another thread. Let’s say you wanted to use nice Metamagic Feat +1 for your Fireball spell (3rd level). It is a spell you could easily use often, like you said you wanted to.
The problem is you have some nice 4th level spells (Stoneskin, Ice Storm, Greater Invisibility, etc), and casting that +1spell level Fireball eats into them. It is why I have never liked +x spell levels for Metamagic feats.
Now if you are going to keep that emergency Still/Silent spell, it is ok for once, maybe twice at the most, but to be able to cast them often, like you were saying, the +x Metamagic feats just don’t work well at all.
Heh Well, insert your favorite 3rd level spell, then. One you would cast often, in my example.
Although I will say Fireball is still used often, at least in our campaign. It is good for clearing out large groups of fodder or even small groups of creatures you know have crappy Reflex saves.
They aren't really worth it.
There are usually a bunch of corner cases where they are good, but corner cases aren't worth a feat.
Some of the APG stuff looks like it might introduce incentives to take metamagics, but that's just throwing more feats at the problem.
I've considered houseruling them so that they take up more spell slots but not higher spell slots. But, you know, house rules.
In general, these feats are doomed to be one of those features of the system that is either houseruled to be useful, or otherwise requires special/class abilities, magic items, and other avenues to make it worthwhile. Taking it as a feat is almost always sub-optimal.
Hmm ... well, I don't know if this is fully 100% "worth it" for you if you don't want to full-attack cast or whatever, BUT ... heighten spell makes all of the other meta's MUCH more tasty. Not only do they get the benefit of the feat, but they now *also* get a bump in "spell level" for DC purposes.
Now, with so many problems in raising DC's anyway ... Heighten, IMO, is darn near invaluable for *any* meta-spell you're going to cast.
I mean, hell, if you're burning a higher slot, you might as well get the higher slot's DC value, no? Heighten does this (a recent realization on my end, honestly).
wow ... must be one of my house rules or something then.
Every time I think about taking a metamagic feat for my Sorcerer, I run into the following issues:
1) Everything other than Quicken Spell is a full round casting.
2) A metamagic feat coupled with a low level spell seems to be less effective than just casing a spell of the appropriate level.I see a partial exception for Still Spell/Silent Spell; they're feats that would be useful for casting a spell if I were bound/gagged/both. However that seems like a very situational case. (For Eldritch Knight, Still Spell is wonderful, but that's also very situational.)
To the OP: Made a post on the woTC board about this recently.
The key is...what are you going to use the metamagic for? The primary applications for metamgic are dmg spells, and this is because damage spells suck.
In the transition to 3E, caps were put on the dmg of spells at the same time the hit points of monsters were raised by hit dice, and by giving them huge constitution bonuses.
To kill something of your CR, you basically have to be able to do 4x your level in hit dice of dmg to it, for the most part. metamagic feats are not capable of that unless you wierd them, i.e. apply metamagic efficiency.
To wierd metamagic effectively, you have to layer it. Only multiple levels fo efficiency can do this, and there's only two feats which do so...Epic Metamagic Efficiency, and Arcane Thesis.
Once you have Arcane Thesis, your choices are limited to low level dmg spells you can multiply up in effect, or add kickers to for no cost.
Practical Metamagic makes ONE metamagic feat cost 1 less (min 1). Efficient Metamagic lets one SPELL cost one less metamagic (min 1). Combined with Arcane Thesis, this can reduce your cost to 0 across multiple feats, and let you stack and layer them.
Flurry of Wings is a horrible blaster spell. It's a damage burst centered on the caster with a 30 or 40' radius. That's why the dmg is force, and so high...it makes you a liability to the party, and you can't attack at range with it.
There's basically only two usable 'blaster' spells, and the reason is that one only worries about SR (magic missile), adn the other has a great dmg cap (Scorching Ray). Orbs, at level 4, are too high a level to profit from stacking metamagic.
The key feats for a blaster build are Empower (reduced to 0 for 'free' casting), Energize (+50% against undead/fiends), TWin (double dmg), Admixture (double dmg, elemental), and Quicken (finish them!). You can top them off with Banespell (+2d6 dmg, 'free') and Searing (+2 dmg/spell level).
That gives you a spell with potentially Xd6 dmg, +2d6 +2x Spell level, all multiplied by 8. So, you could get 13d6 +18 Scorching Ray, x 8 dmg against, say, a Devil, after you switch dmg type to lighting. 104d6 + 144 dmg, no save, only SR, is a b&!!% to deal with...and if you get the Steady Caster feat that allows taking 10 on SR punches, combined with Spell Penetration, you will NEVER have to worry about SR.
Dmg builds via metamagic are very focused on killing things with magic...not targeting saves, not doing battlefield control, just out and out killing them. It takes a bit of time to make the build, but once you have it, you have the key that unlocks all doors.
I personally prefer Force Missile Mage builds. A level 1 spell can stack a LOT of metas on it, force dmg hurts everything, and you only worry about SR. FMM lets you apply elemental dmg as you see fit, adds 2 missiles, and as you stack multipliers starts looking VERY nasty at higher levels.
Efficient Empower, Efficient Twin, Quicken, + Arcane Thesis, + Efficient Spell. It's a lot of feats, not easy to do. But at level 10 you can really start administering a beat down with Empowered Twinned Magic Missiles, and as you add EMpower, banespell, Searing and the like, it just gets meaner and meaner.
==Aelryinth
The other end that metamagic is useful at is the role playing end or if you think there is a high chance that you'll end up in a situation where you won't have items and you'll need to cast without speaking or moving.
In this case having still spell and silent spell can be nice. If you are playing the paranoid wizard afraid of being somewhere and not being able to cast a spell due to physical restrictions then by all means take these metamagic feats (and eschew materials too).
However in combat these feats are generally less useful since they do not add to combat efficiency and take up higher level spell slots (that could be used for other more effective spells).
Arcane tricksters have a boost in this end with their tricky spell ability.
With sufficient metamagic, meta'd spells will blow away their higher level counterparts because of dmg caps.
At level 10, an Empowered Fireball does 15d6 dmg. Cone of Cold does 10d6. You have to wait 5 levels to catch up.
A Thesis'd, Efficient Scorching Ray, with Empower And Twin, is a level 5 spell dealing out 33d6 dmg at level 11. If Empower and Twin are Efficient, you can then add Admixture to the group and potentially get it to 66d6. Takes 6 feats, avg dmg is 231, Level 5 slot.
No saves...you just need to worry about SR, elemental Res, and Touch attack hits (and is why I prefer Force Missile Mages...2 of the 3 go away)
==Aelryinth
If you like to blast stuff, empowered spell is great.
No, actually, it's really a trap.
What's your opinion on Maximize, Z?If you like to blast stuff, empowered spell is great.No, actually, it's really a trap.
That should be pretty obvious :p
Maximize is just junk. I'd call it "a worse trap than Empower", but really, it's not all that effective a trap because it's really obvious to just about anyone who even looks at the comparative numbers.
With sufficient metamagic, meta'd spells will blow away their higher level counterparts because of dmg caps.
At level 10, an Empowered Fireball does 15d6 dmg. Cone of Cold does 10d6. You have to wait 5 levels to catch up.
A Thesis'd, Efficient Scorching Ray, with Empower And Twin, is a level 5 spell dealing out 33d6 dmg at level 11. If Empower and Twin are Efficient, you can then add Admixture to the group and potentially get it to 66d6. Takes 6 feats, avg dmg is 231, Level 5 slot.
No saves...you just need to worry about SR, elemental Res, and Touch attack hits (and is why I prefer Force Missile Mages...2 of the 3 go away)==Aelryinth
Here's my take. If you want to blast, get yourself a Rod of empower or maximize. I agree empower is a trap in most circumstances.
You are looking at an empowered fireball doing 15d6 damage, but you may do less damage than that 10d6 cone of cold because the save goes up by 2 on cone of cold. If there was a feat that let your empowered fireball count as a level 5 spell for the DC I would say it is better, but otherwise I would put my money on the cone. On top of that, the feat you spent on empower could have been spent on spell focus(evocation) to boost the save again, or an item crafting feat which could potentially boost your save again. The rod is cheap, if you wanna empower fireball go with that.
I only ask after having a wizard in an early game of mine use a Sudden Empowered/Sudden Maximized Horrid Wilting when I wasn't expecting it.
The Sudden feats are a completely different story. No spell level adjustment and usable on the fly. Sure, only 1/day, but they're actually useful as opposed to the normal version.
Except the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.
If you use 3.5 material sculpt spell is nice. It's only a +1 adjustment and you can use it to turn your level 1 grease spell into a level 2 grease spell with 4 10ft cubes instead of 1, sculpt area spells to be useful, etc. The old energy substitution let you for +0 change spells to sonic but it got eratta'd to only be fire, lightning, ice, and acid :( if you can get sonic take that or just wait til quicken to start taking suddens.
Or you can just by a rod and have sudden empower 3x a day ;)
Except the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.
In 3.5 sculpt spell was on that list for me -- but you needed another metamagic to get it.
Except the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.In 3.5 sculpt spell was on that list for me -- but you needed another metamagic to get it.
Ninja's baby.. and you thought I was a 13 dex monk muahaha
Except the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.
Not all of the Sudden metamagics require another metamagic first. You can pick up Sudden Still, Silence, Extend, or Widen without needing another metamagic feat. Extend is probably the most universally useful of those. There's also Explosive Spell, which can be fun, although it's not really very powerful barring stupid tricks like locate city.
Ninja's baby.. and you thought I was a 13 dex monk muahahaExcept the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.In 3.5 sculpt spell was on that list for me -- but you needed another metamagic to get it.
even a dex 13 monk can roll a 20 Init.