I think there's a beastmaster or animal-focused druid or ranger that's supposed to have the ability to break up his animal companion hit dice into multiple creatures.
What would be amazing is if this were an option for the Summoner with his Eidolon.
Sure, it'd take 1 minute to call each one. But you could sacrifice some HD on your combat eidolon (or eidolons) to make damage dealer monsters, and have some utilty creatures around on top of that.
That would really give the opportunity to feel like you are a person who controls many summoned things.
Yeah, it's multiple creatures again. But what's good for the goose (druid/ranger) is good for the gander (summoner).
Perhaps this is something for a Summoner archetype?
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In my opinion, like someone said before me, "summoner" is a bad name for this class. I think what they should have done, is done away with the Eidolon completely and modified a summon monster list for the summoner. Maybe put some stronger monsters on the lists, or gave the summoner access to higher level summons earlier.
Summoners in books and stories seem much cooler than this class. When I envision a summoner, I see someone who summons demons/devils/angel types, not to just fight in combat, but to enhance their power. Or to bind into items.
In many cases you cannot summon the monsters in combat situations due to spacing. The fact that summoned creatures do not appear and act until the round after you cast the spell means most of the time, if you are fighting 1 or 2 guys, the rest of the party either has them surrounded, or in other instances, if an intelligent creature recognizes a summoner, they back into a corner or wall so they can only be attacke by a limited number of creatures. If you are only summoning 1 creature, your Eidolon is generally more powerful. So limiting the ability to have your eidolon and another summoned monster on the field at the same time really hampers the summoner.
Exactly it which made me think the class is pretty much dead. One of the two main components was killed. If they really needed to nerf the summoner which I don't think was the case it should have been the bab or spells not summoning.
Except the summoner can't have many monsters out at once, even with the SLA. Its limmitted to 1 SLA at a time, so they will allways choose the significantly better eidolon over it.
So, are you saying that nerfing the Summoner's summoning makes the Summoner less of a Summoner?
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So, are you saying that nerfing the Summoner's summoning makes the Summoner less of a Summoner?Exactly it which made me think the class is pretty much dead. One of the two main components was killed. If they really needed to nerf the summoner which I don't think was the case it should have been the bab or spells not summoning.
Except the summoner can't have many monsters out at once, even with the SLA. Its limmitted to 1 SLA at a time, so they will allways choose the significantly better eidolon over it.
Who's on first? :)
James has made this comment on other threads, but it fits...PLAY THE NEW CLASS FIRST!!! at least for a few levels, try it out. Get some feedback from your GM and the others players, just don't play it expecting to fail, because you will and it won't be anyone elses fault. Once you try the new class, others might be glad that your not so unbeatable anymore, and even though your GM was ok with the over powered class he might be happier with a balanced one. This was done as much for everyone who plays not just those who play a summoner.
We all agree it needed nerfing, most just don't like how they nerfed it. I'll admit they took a unique approach but it does make the summoner more of a focus than it used to, and i'm willing to try the class 1st and then kill them on the boards later.
James has made this comment on other threads, but it fits...PLAY THE NEW CLASS FIRST!!! at least for a few levels, try it out. Get some feedback from your GM and the others players, just don't play it expecting to fail, because you will and it won't be anyone elses fault. Once you try the new class, others might be glad that your not so unbeatable anymore, and even though your GM was ok with the over powered class he might be happier with a balanced one. This was done as much for everyone who plays not just those who play a summoner.
We all agree it needed nerfing, most just don't like how they nerfed it. I'll admit they took a unique approach but it does make the summoner more of a focus than it used to, and i'm willing to try the class 1st and then kill them on the boards later.
The change in the flavor of the class eliminates alot of the interesting parts of my current summoner, so I am almost certainly going to be discontinuing him. I may try the class in the future if I think of a character that interests me but the relationship my character currently has with his eidolon and how that impacts his personality and behavior no longer makes sense. That alone has really hurt my desire to try it out for a while. Ultimately I have to talk to the dm of that game and see what I am going to do. But most likely I will just be shifting to a new character. And it's unlikely that new character will be a summoner.
James has made this comment on other threads, but it fits...PLAY THE NEW CLASS FIRST!!! at least for a few levels, try it out.
Condisdering that one of the changes completely invalidates a large swath of roleplaying for the class, that can be rather difficult for some people (see Kolokotroni). It is in fact a fallacy to claim that the changes cannot be evaluated without having played with them first.
So, are you saying that nerfing the Summoner's summoning makes the Summoner less of a Summoner?Exactly it which made me think the class is pretty much dead. One of the two main components was killed. If they really needed to nerf the summoner which I don't think was the case it should have been the bab or spells not summoning.
Except the summoner can't have many monsters out at once, even with the SLA. Its limmitted to 1 SLA at a time, so they will allways choose the significantly better eidolon over it.
I feel you lost an opportunity here. You definately could have done better DM_Blake.
So, simply stated, slashing the summoners stature in satisfactory summoning skills soundly stomped out his signficant claim to the station of summoner.
The change in the flavor of the class eliminates alot of the interesting parts of my current summoner, so I am almost certainly going to be discontinuing him. I may try the class in the future if I think of a character that interests me but the relationship my character currently has with his eidolon and how that impacts his personality and behavior no longer makes sense. That alone has really hurt my desire to try it out for a while. Ultimately I have to talk to the dm of that game and see what I am going to do. But most likely I will just be shifting to a new character. And it's unlikely that new character will be a summoner.James has made this comment on other threads, but it fits...PLAY THE NEW CLASS FIRST!!! at least for a few levels, try it out. Get some feedback from your GM and the others players, just don't play it expecting to fail, because you will and it won't be anyone elses fault. Once you try the new class, others might be glad that your not so unbeatable anymore, and even though your GM was ok with the over powered class he might be happier with a balanced one. This was done as much for everyone who plays not just those who play a summoner.
We all agree it needed nerfing, most just don't like how they nerfed it. I'll admit they took a unique approach but it does make the summoner more of a focus than it used to, and i'm willing to try the class 1st and then kill them on the boards later.
Apparently i'm missing something major here then, I don't see how the changes will kill a characters personality. It seems like over reaction. The eidolon is still out for a significant amount of time. Just because he's not there when your sleeping doesn't make him less deserving of your attention and developing it as a person/thing you have a deep connection to.
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James has made this comment on other threads, but it fits...PLAY THE NEW CLASS FIRST!!! at least for a few levels, try it out. Get some feedback from your GM and the others players, just don't play it expecting to fail, because you will and it won't be anyone elses fault. Once you try the new class, others might be glad that your not so unbeatable anymore, and even though your GM was ok with the over powered class he might be happier with a balanced one. This was done as much for everyone who plays not just those who play a summoner.
We all agree it needed nerfing, most just don't like how they nerfed it. I'll admit they took a unique approach but it does make the summoner more of a focus than it used to, and i'm willing to try the class 1st and then kill them on the boards later.
Let me tell you about this awesome class I found! It has medium BAB, D8 HD, an animal companion which you can deck out with all kind of magical bling (especially if you get an Ape!), can wear armor and has full spellcasting progression. It can even convert all of its spells into summon monster! It's called the Druid, and it is waaaaaay better than the summoner has EVER been, even at its most "broken".
I don't need to playtest this f&$%ing class to know I can do almost THE EXACT SAME THING that this class does with another class, and do it better. Paizo isn't always right, no matter the excuse, and this is a perfect example. I don't care if they didn't make these changes to cave in to popular demand. S+$!ty class design is s~!&ty class design, and there is no excuse for it.
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Exactly it which made me think the class is pretty much dead. One of the two main components was killed. If they really needed to nerf the summoner which I don't think was the case it should have been the bab or spells not summoning.
First, their spell list already sucks pretty bad, and with the final change it only got better.
Second, you can't just simply nerf BaB anymore now that is tied to HD. To do so they would have bumped them down to a d6 HD and that is just too much.
You need to take a chill pill, crawl out from under your little sheltered world where only the "optimal" survives and actually play the game. You are leaping to huge conclusions off of a few simple tweaks to keep the class from dominating 50 plus % of the time actually spent in combat. That and the fact that before the eidolon was basically the whole character, you could have put your PC into a coma, shrunk him, and had someone wake you up every time your buddy gets killed to resummon him and just been perfectly fine, and nearly unkillable at that.
The class needed toning down, as do your standards for what is a functional class.
Apparently i'm missing something major here then, I don't see how the changes will kill a characters personality. It seems like over reaction. The eidolon is still out for a significant amount of time. Just because he's not there when your sleeping doesn't make him less deserving of your attention and developing it as a person/thing you have a deep connection to.
Because the eidolon is less the constant companion, or extra planar friend, and more a 'manifestation of the summoner's will'. If it requires the summoner's constant concentration to keep the eidolon here, then the idea that the eidolon is there willingly as the summoners friend makes alot less sense in my view.
Then play a druid, be happy, its all good. I'm just trying to suggest instead of abandoning a character, try it out. It has some components that are improved and might surprise some people.
Not saying that those who don't like the summoner, old or new, should play one. Just that it seems fair to play the class with new rules before ripping into it and calling it f!*~ing s#@#ty.
I actually steered away from the original summoner because I thought I'd end up unbalancing the game, even unintentionally. I didn't want to have to downplay a class just so that I wouldn't overshadow the other players.
Paizo is not always right, never claimed they were.
I don't agree with some of the crafting rules for example.
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Angry flawed ranting
Whoa there partner! We may worship devils, but that is no reason to go off the deep end here.
If you are so upset with the "changes" (I quotation them because the class never really existed as a product before a few days ago) then don't buy the book. If you have a problem with the game design then feel free to go back to 3.5 where you could build your level 2 god killing machine with +3 awesome aura. Paizo works to maintain game BALANCE, and this class is just that.
Seriously though, paizo did not kill your baby as your reaction would seem to imply.
I would say the summoner's will is the link that allows the edilon to exist on our plane of reality, otherwise he disperses back to where he came from. the eidolon is still a distinct creature with personality, feelings, intellect and what not.
I may get killed for referencing R.A.Salvatore but Drizzt had a Figurine of wondrous power that summoned an astral panther. The panther had a name, personality, and feelings, but relied on the figurine as a gateway. It was a valued companion even with its limited time allotted.
I would liken an eidolon to that interpretation of a summoned creature.
I don't think it says that it has to be only a manifestation of your will and nothing more. In fact i think it would be fun to play one that sometimes disagreed with the summoner and used tactics it thought were better or chose to attack something that made it angry. definitely a nice dynamic I'll use for my next summoner. Angry eidolon that always wants to eat gnomes. Have to dismiss him when in not violent social situations with gnomes.
Then play a druid, be happy, its all good. I'm just trying to suggest instead of abandoning a character, try it out. It has some components that are improved and might surprise some people.
Not saying that those who don't like the summoner, old or new, should play one. Just that it seems fair to play the class with new rules before ripping into it and calling it f!*~ing s#@#ty.
I actually steered away from the original summoner because I thought I'd end up unbalancing the game, even unintentionally. I didn't want to have to downplay a class just so that I wouldn't overshadow the other players.
Paizo is not always right, never claimed they were.
I don't agree with some of the crafting rules for example.
It doesnt matter if i continue playing a summoner, the character would be a new one. The way I roleplay a character is strongly influenced by mechanics, and the personality and goals the character originally had are no longer compatable with the final verison of the class. That in and of itself doesnt make the final version of the summoner wrong bad fun, it just means I am disappointed in the direction they took the class and feel the developers made a poor decision in this case. I dont think the class is bad, it is just average. The disappointment comes from the fact that the class could have been exceptional (and i dont mean in terms of power, i mean in terms of how it felt to play).
Much of what excited me about the class is removed. I liked the idea of focusing on the pet instead of the 'character'. The relationship that could be created there was interesting. With the shift of focus back to the summoner, there is less that jumps out at me to actually play the class. I dont really see a reason to want to play the class more then any other. Where as I do have a list of character ideas I do wish to play and I am pretty sure I am going to move on to one of those.
Angry flawed rantingWhoa there partner! We may worship devils, but that is no reason to go off the deep end here.
If you are so upset with the "changes" (I quotation them because the class never really existed as a product before a few days ago) then don't buy the book. If you have a problem with the game design then feel free to go back to 3.5 where you could build your level 2 god killing machine with +3 awesome aura. Paizo works to maintain game BALANCE, and this class is just that.
Seriously though, paizo did not kill your baby as your reaction would seem to imply.
The angry post aside, the whole 'if you dont like it you can get out' business is nonsense. People have a right to provide feedback on a product. I do not believe 'this product is for people who exclusively agree with paizo devs' is written on the rulebooks do you?
And in terms of balance, there in lies the problem. The glaring unbalance is still there, and things that were in balance with one of the core classes (and its closest analogue) were removed because it was compared to things that didnt relate to it. That isnt preserving balance.
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Post got moderated out so the reply is pointless. but in response to Kolo
-Well, I never intended anything approaching a "buy it or GTFO." I meant more in terms that if he had such an issue with it then instead of getting so heated that he should instead protest by not purchasing the product. Freedom of choice.
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Ok first off, who the f~@% are you telling me what to do? Do you actually play a summoner? No? Then f~@% right off.
Angry flawed rantingEver thought of switching to decafe?
Seriously however, being hostile does little to make me sympathetic to your position, has more of a "spoiled brat" effect on me.
Like you will care,
S.
I think I understand a bit more now where your coming from. If you were looking for a pet first idea then it definitely nerfed that idea, but it is still more of a pet 1st class than any other, and still playable as such, just depends on where your creativity and imagination stop. I'd pit an eidolon against a druid animal companion.
As a "fix" for the group upset at having to take up a 2nd-level slot for Summon Eidolon. Instead of having to memorize Summon Eidolon you could house rule that summoners can spontaneously cast/sacrifice a 2nd-spell in order to re-summon the their Eidolon.
Another option would to making the spontaneous casting a feat instead of it being automatic class feature.
Angry flawed rantingWhoa there partner! We may worship devils, but that is no reason to go off the deep end here.
If you are so upset with the "changes" (I quotation them because the class never really existed as a product before a few days ago) then don't buy the book. If you have a problem with the game design then feel free to go back to 3.5 where you could build your level 2 god killing machine with +3 awesome aura. Paizo works to maintain game BALANCE, and this class is just that.
Seriously though, paizo did not kill your baby as your reaction would seem to imply.
The angry post aside, the whole 'if you dont like it you can get out' business is nonsense. People have a right to provide feedback on a product. I do not believe 'this product is for people who exclusively agree with paizo devs' is written on the rulebooks do you?
And in terms of balance, there in lies the problem. The glaring unbalance is still there, and things that were in balance with one of the core classes (and its closest analogue) were removed because it was compared to things that didnt relate to it. That isnt preserving balance.
Not sure if you are referencing my post with that bit about "if you don't like it then get out" but thats not what I said or meant
I said in response to the angry poster saying a druid is superior to a summoner in everthing a summoner can do "then play a druid, be happy, its all good"
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Angry flawed rantingWhoa there partner! We may worship devils, but that is no reason to go off the deep end here.
If you are so upset with the "changes" (I quotation them because the class never really existed as a product before a few days ago) then don't buy the book. If you have a problem with the game design then feel free to go back to 3.5 where you could build your level 2 god killing machine with +3 awesome aura. Paizo works to maintain game BALANCE, and this class is just that.
Seriously though, paizo did not kill your baby as your reaction would seem to imply.
The angry post aside, the whole 'if you dont like it you can get out' business is nonsense. People have a right to provide feedback on a product. I do not believe 'this product is for people who exclusively agree with paizo devs' is written on the rulebooks do you?
And in terms of balance, there in lies the problem. The glaring unbalance is still there, and things that were in balance with one of the core classes (and its closest analogue) were removed because it was compared to things that didnt relate to it. That isnt preserving balance.
Not sure if you are referencing my post with that bit about "if you don't like it then get out" but thats not what I said or meant
I said in response to the angry poster saying a druid is superior to a summoner in everthing a summoner can do "then play a druid, be happy, its all good"
And that wasn't what I was saying. Everyone was going on about how broken the summoner was, yaddayaddayadda...and never went "Oh wait! The druid is more "broken" than the summoner!". And then, instead of putting a blurb on the arms like...maybe setting a specific limit on haw many they can have, instead they nerf the Eidolon radically, and gave us the old spell list back.
Lolwhat?
I think people have largely ignored the "druid is broken" because they are here to talk about the summoner and not the druid.
I think people have largely ignored the "druid is broken" because they are here to talk about the summoner and not the druid.+1
I think it is a valid comparison though, if you are talking about a class being overpowered or not.
The reason being, the druid really is the closest comparison you can make between the Summoner and a core class. Both have pets, both cast spells, both have summon spells, and both have lots of buff spells.
So it's a valid comparison, and the comparison is not favorable to the final version of the summoner.
I am really thinking once I get the pdf making a post on getting help redesigning the class to be more about summoning again.Here would be a down and dirty version:
1. Remove the eidolon, instead let the summoner 'bond' with one of his summons giving it something along the lines of the familiar template (increased min INT, bonus natural armor, link, share spells, etc). Have the familiar be upgradable with summoner level (transfering the spirit/bond/etc). The bonded creature would be around indefinitely, when killed would have a cycle time before it could be brought back (like a familiar or finding a new animal companion, etc).2. Remove the 'special' rules on eidolons. Distance, rune, etc. Treat it simply as a called creature, subject to banishment but not warded by a prot align spell as per usual rules for called creatures.
3. Remove the limit on summon SLA at one time. This is a table management issue that DMs and players should handle. If any summoner (small 's') can't run all that they are summoning (even if it's just one critter) then disallow them from doing it. Whether it's a druid, a sorcerer or a Summoner it shouldn't matter.
That would do it. It would remove the silly 'item slot' issue and other 'Summoner' only rules that just scream bad class design to me (like forcing a square peg in a round hole).
-James
I think that's a good idea.
I think it's a horrible idea. The Eidolon is the point of the class; removing it is out of the question. It does need some tweaks to be perfectly balanced, but it's not astrophysics. Make Pounce more expensive, limit the number of manufactured attacks, tweak the stats some, provide a greater variety of base bodies (so things like oozes or birds are possible), etc.
I may try my hand at adjusting it, myself.
Director of Games
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As with the other thread,
This one has gone off the deep end with ranting, raving, and folks getting into arguments. Such posts only serve to obscure any constructive points anyone here might have been trying to make. Since some of the players here do not have the book yet, and next to no one has actually played with the changes, I am going to let this discussion sit for a while until everyone has had a chance to play with it for a bit.
This thread is closed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing