Many things, but not every thing. Paladins come readily to mind. But we can chalk that up to fantasizing to make it more interesting.
My point exactly (I should have made that clearer, sorry).
|
Again, you could easily take the stats of elementals and describe them as such, no need to make new stats for them.We're not discussing house rules here.
We're discussing whether or not monks fit into the default world and whether the default world is european.
If you have to house rule in order to make your point, we've moved outside of any discussion of the default world.
Reflavoring is not house rules. Calling it such does not make it so.
As for whether Default D&D/Pathfinder is European, with elves and Dwarves, as well as Bards and Druids, Vampires out of Bram Stoker Empires like Cheiliax that resemble Byzantium I would say the answer is, mostly. However, it is a stew of mixed up history and prehistory which do have some outside ingredients options like Genies and Tengu which are seldom not used.
In general about is about 80% European as a default.
I think the ultimate expression of this is Oriental Adventures; It examines a foreign world from the default. The same goes for other settings that create an "Arabian Nights" or "New World". All of these are substituting a different flavoring for the mostly European default setting.
All the Best,
Kerney
You can't buy lemons or limes in a fantasy campaign.
If someone asked my character if it was a Eurocentric campaign, he would say, "You're a what?", "A Euro peon? Is that like a regular Peon?"
I think there is a game where you play in the world of King Arther. Pendragon, right?
There is Legend of the 5 rings for oriental gaming.
Silver Crescent Publishing
|
I think that monks can actually still fit any genre. The problem is the stereotype associated with martial arts combat. The most common is, of course, asian-style martial arts descended from China or Japan. However, Brazilian jujitsu and other styles are the most obvious example of non-asian martial arts. Also, even European knights trained in unarmed combat, though they tended more towards the pugilist (boxing) style. Really it is all in the imagery. A trained boxer is going to be able to attack faster than one that isn't so well trained, thus the flurry of blows. And any person trained in martial combat is going to pursue higher levels of training and perfection. So what's to say the monk isn't just a street-fighting Irishman who has learned a thing or two and now is trying to discipline himself into perfection, be it for money-making opportunities or for adventure.
Training in combat does not make one a martial artist.While there were martial arts in Europe, it's wrong to say that a trained boxer counts.
Martial arts includes spiritual development. Trattato di Scientia d'Arme might be a Western example of that. Boxing, not so much.
Bruce Lee would (and did) disagree.
He called western boxing a true punching martial art, and incorporated much of its theory into jeet kune do.
Boxing also requires skill, training, and discipline, which are the same "spiritual" aspects of any martial art.
|
Silver Crescent Publishing
|
Training in combat does not make one a martial artist.While there were martial arts in Europe, it's wrong to say that a trained boxer counts.
Martial arts includes spiritual development. Trattato di Scientia d'Arme might be a Western example of that. Boxing, not so much.
I agree. But look at thai kick boxing (yes I understand it's source is asia once again). It is essentially a sport, but it has a great deal of ritual and spiritual aspects to both the sport itself and the training.
I admit that what boxing itself has become may not have the spiritual aspects that we all associate with martial arts, but it is a martial art nonetheless.
And I still say that a random guy on the street could develop a martial art for himself (much the way martial arts originated in Asia and elsewhere int he world) given the need.
And I will have to take a look at the Trattato di Scientia d'Arme. It sounds like something I might be interested in reading being a martial artist myself. I believe that's french is it not?
|
Silver Crescent Publishing
|
Draeger, after all, was the father of modern hoplology. Bruce Lee was a movie star.
Bruce Lee was a martial artist first. He became a movie star much later in his life. And only then because of his martial arts skills. He brought kung-fu to the fore front and introduced what has become the standard of martial arts movies.
Bruce Lee was the reason that kung-fu is taught to more than just those of Chinese descent. While not everything written about him is true, his martial arts skill was. Would you say Jackie Chan, Jet Li or Pat Morita is less of a martial artist simply because they are in the movies? (and yes I realize that Jet Li uses wires somewhat for the suspension of disbelief in some of his fight scenes).
|
|
Again, you could easily take the stats of elementals and describe them as such, no need to make new stats for them.We're not discussing house rules here.
We're discussing whether or not monks fit into the default world and whether the default world is european.
If you have to house rule in order to make your point, we've moved outside of any discussion of the default world.
Reflavoring is not house rules. Calling it such does not make it so.
As for whether Default D&D/Pathfinder is European, with elves and Dwarves, as well as Bards and Druids, Vampires out of Bram Stoker Empires like Cheiliax that resemble Byzantium I would say the answer is, mostly. However, it is a stew of mixed up history and prehistory which do have some outside ingredients options like Genies and Tengu which are seldom not used.
In general about is about 80% European as a default.
I think the ultimate expression of this is Oriental Adventures; It examines a foreign world from the default. The same goes for other settings that create an "Arabian Nights" or "New World". All of these are substituting a different flavoring for the mostly European default setting.
All the Best,
Kerney
Looking at how many of the times you mentioned have so little to do with European myths, I'd say the default world is about 10 - 15% European.
Druids-Ancient Celtic pre christian order: European
Bards- Class based off both the Bards of the Celts, Skalds of the Norse, and Jogulars of Medieval France--Also European.Large Dominant empire that is a center of civilization who survives in a reduced form as a sceaming remnant. Sounds like Rome, whose rise and fall underlies modern European History.
Dwarves and Elves: Norse Myth w/ some Celtic/sidhe flavoring for the elves, even the original inspiration for the url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trow_%28folklore%29]Drow[/url].
Paladin: Class based originally on the Knights of Europe. It has evolved from that but basically the arch typical "palidin" are the Crusaders and Medieval legends like Sir Galahad.
Vampires in game: Based off Eastern European legend as interpreted through an Irishman.
I could go on, and on, and on. But I make my point. The Base setting and many of the creatures pulled on first be they Dragons or Goblins or or whatever, most of them are European. I stand by my 80%.
The fact that you didn't even know that Druids were based off European history and myths, even the shapechanging in game (Song of Tuan, Ireland).
Now let's turn it around. Name 10 things that you think of as non European inspired that are not obviously inspired by something else, like the Monk, Genies etc. I bet I can show the European 'inspiration' for about 80% of them. It doesn't mean they haven't evolved. However, they're still there.
All the Best,
Kerney
The term Mage and Magus are middle eastern in origin. Dragons are originally from Sumeria, Hydras are Grecian (arguably based off of Sumeria), the Tengu is Japanese, Werewolves are originally Sumerian (They reference them in the creation mythology, and werewolves as we know them are not European, Lycanthropy has always been considered a mental illness), The vampire of DnD was based off of Dracula, which was in turn an amalgamation of vampires from around the world (No one vampire mythology had anywhere near half of the abilities of Dracula, See Vampire Nation for more information). The Hag existed in many countries other than Europe (Though that is where the name comes from) the most notable is Korea. I could go on, but I don't see the point.
Also Merlin was a Druid and is famous for shapeshifting.
|
(and yes I realize that Jet Li uses wires somewhat for the suspension of disbelief in some of his fight scenes).
That's a dirty lie! I have it on good authority that Jet Li does all his own stunts, including the enormous jumps in his wuxia movies. The wires you can occasionally see are just a smokescreen!
Seriously, though. I think that the monk has as much a place in the hodgepodge that is the traditional D&D fantasy setting as does anything else in it. I dislike some of the application of how monks are built, and think that the name is a little loaded, but what those class abilities mean is entirely up to the GM and player. As an example, there's an NPC in my current Ravenloft game who's a monk: he's a brawler and a parkourist. He never trained in a monastery, he's not especially religious, and he's not a mystic. His abilities come from knowing his own body, letting go of his conscious mind as he trains, and keeping himself on a strict regimen of diet and exercise.
There are plenty of western unarmed martial arts, some of which have already been discussed in this thread. Heck, Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson knew martial arts, if you want to talk about European fiction. (Both were practitioners of bartitsu, sometimes called baritsu.)
As a follower of an eastern martial art myself (shotokan karate), I can say that "martial arts" only have as much spiritual meaning as the instructors give it. Some people train better with navel-gazing and deep meditation; some just like learning ways to hit things and improve their bodies. Neither way is right or wrong, and they're both part of the wide and colorful tradition of martial arts.
I agree that "monk weapons" need to go die in a fire, though. Not only does it set monks aside as "somehow different" from other classes, it creates an invalid presupposition of cultural traits in an otherwise fairly culture-neutral system. You know what the difference between a sickle and a kama is? None. A kama is a Japanese sickle; that's literally what the word means. Nunchaku are a weaponized threshing flail, same as the European flail. Exoticizing Asian culture doesn't help anyone, and it's jarring in the context of an otherwise non-exoticized game.
Jeremy Puckett
People keep saying the druid is a western class. It's not.
The druid is an eastern nature mystic, more associated with the Taoism then any actual Celtic belief. Celtic druids were intensely urban; this nonsense about repelling civilization because it's encrouching on the forest is about as anti-druidic as it gets.
He just has a western name.
In fact, that's what most of D&D comes down to - an amalgamut of all kinds of tropes or cultures that are then given "White dude" name to make it seem "European." The bard? Celtic bards didn't go into dungeons and sing with a harp and lute. Norse elves didn't live in trees and shoot with bows and arrows. Large dominant empires that fall into bickering city states? That sounds like China to me. Or what about those mongolian orcs?
High fantasy isn't build on Eurocentricism, it's build on high fantasy. It's largely its own thing now.
Large dominant empires that fall into bickering city states? That sounds like China to me.
Or, you know, Alexander the Great's empire, which covered (IIRC) more territory than any empire other than the Mongols', then disintegrated into various city-states and princedoms upon Alexander's death. Or Rome, which became the Italian States, which were quite firmly divided into city-states up until relatively modern times. Or Germany, whose entire pre-modern history is a cycle of strong central government (frequently imposed from outside, true) that morphs or shatters into princedoms and city-states.
Large dominant empires that fall into bickering city states? That sounds like China to me.Or, you know, Alexander the Great's empire, which covered (IIRC) more territory than any empire other than the Mongols', then disintegrated into various city-states and princedoms upon Alexander's death. Or Rome, which became the Italian States, which were quite firmly divided into city-states up until relatively modern times. Or Germany, whose entire pre-modern history is a cycle of strong central government (frequently imposed from outside, true) that morphs or shatters into princedoms and city-states.
Or you can accept my statement for what it actually means, which is "Large empires that then collapse happened all the g&~%@+n time on Earth, it's not a Europe Only club." ;p
Or you can accept my statement for what it actually means, which is "Large empires that then collapse happened all the g$$*#+n time on Earth, it's not a Europe Only club." ;pLarge dominant empires that fall into bickering city states? That sounds like China to me.Or, you know, Alexander the Great's empire, which covered (IIRC) more territory than any empire other than the Mongols', then disintegrated into various city-states and princedoms upon Alexander's death. Or Rome, which became the Italian States, which were quite firmly divided into city-states up until relatively modern times. Or Germany, whose entire pre-modern history is a cycle of strong central government (frequently imposed from outside, true) that morphs or shatters into princedoms and city-states.
OK, that I can certainly agree with :) I misinterpreted what you were saying.
The fighter makes a fantastic street brawler/HtH fighter when you choose the right feats. A few feats that might help him survive without armor, and you have what you need.
The monk, on the other hand has a specific role in a DnD campaign, the monk represents a "mysterious foreigner" or "foreign culture".
I am currently playing Female Paladin who is ethnically Xian and worships the Sun Goddess and has a "Japanese" name, uses a "Naginata" (i.e. Ransuer). I don't need another class to represent a "mysterious foreigner" or "foreign culture".
I therefore I have a deep dislike when we add classes like this pre-flavored. To me a Samurai is a Fighter, period. A ninja is a can be rogue, a Rogue/monk, a Rogue/Fighter or just a monk or even Bard, depending on your flavoring. A "realistic" Ninja organization would have all of those classes.
Most of the Pathfinder mechanics work this way. Monk is an exception. In addition it is mechanically superior to any unarmed/fighter brawler who is subpar for a fighter. I therefore prefer a unarmed class that can be a monk rather then a monk that can't be anything else.
All the Best,
Kerney
If you are playing anything other than a fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue, there aspects of your class that are "preflavored", and I don't see anything wrong with that. Like I said, monks are a grab bag of asian wuxia tropes. Story-wise, they fill the roles of outsiders or foreigners, not because you need them, but because that is how they are flavored from the get-go. Just like a barbarian is flavored to come from a "primitive" culture. Its not like you can't play "holistic pugilist" if wanted to, just like playing a "samurai-paladin".
|
|
If you are playing anything other than a fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue, there aspects of your class that are "preflavored", and I don't see anything wrong with that. Like I said, monks are a grab bag of asian wuxia tropes. Story-wise, they fill the roles of outsiders or foreigners, not because you need them, but because that is how they are flavored from the get-go. Just like a barbarian is flavored to come from a "primitive" culture. Its not like you can't play "holistic pugilist" if wanted to, just like playing a "samurai-paladin".The fighter makes a fantastic street brawler/HtH fighter when you choose the right feats. A few feats that might help him survive without armor, and you have what you need.
The monk, on the other hand has a specific role in a DnD campaign, the monk represents a "mysterious foreigner" or "foreign culture".
I am currently playing Female Paladin who is ethnically Xian and worships the Sun Goddess and has a "Japanese" name, uses a "Naginata" (i.e. Ransuer). I don't need another class to represent a "mysterious foreigner" or "foreign culture".
I therefore I have a deep dislike when we add classes like this pre-flavored. To me a Samurai is a Fighter, period. A ninja is a can be rogue, a Rogue/monk, a Rogue/Fighter or just a monk or even Bard, depending on your flavoring. A "realistic" Ninja organization would have all of those classes.
Most of the Pathfinder mechanics work this way. Monk is an exception. In addition it is mechanically superior to any unarmed/fighter brawler who is subpar for a fighter. I therefore prefer a unarmed class that can be a monk rather then a monk that can't be anything else.
All the Best,
Kerney
I think I see the flavoring in most of the core classes and some of the APG as less restrictive then you do. For example, a Barbarian could be anything from Norse to Native American (and they both of these could instead be Rangers) but also a feral begger child in a city who has learned to brawl without formal training or care for himself.
Any of the Core classes, perhaps with the exception of Druid, some in the APG all can fill a much greater variety of background stories. The
To me the Pathfinder Sorcerer is the most brilliantly designed class. Basically all that is required is encounter with the supernatural of some type and it didn't even happen to you. For example, a character in my game had sex w/ a Dryad and she was very appretiative. Another person could be descended from something weird. Yet another could have made a deal with the Devil, literally. Thing is, all of these backgrounds work here. The system supports all of these tropes.
Monk fills Asian Wuxia tropes but that is all it fills. Yes, I could be an enlightened Pugulist but why can't I be a backroom brawler who isn't enlightened about anything except for the quality of the beer?
Yes, I could design my backroom brawler as a 'fighter'. But I don't feel it's well served by those mechanics. The monk class on the other hand serves the character concept better mechanically but requirements, like a lawful alignment nix it. The flavoring gets in the way.
Instead, I think such a character should be within the same class, though though with a very different 'bloodline/training style' and just like a cleric of Desna is very different then a cleric of Asmodeus.
That is why I prefer broad classes. That is why for me the Monk is too specific. You're free to disagree. But hopefully you see what I'm saying.
All the Best,
Kerney
I was running Savage Tide some years ago now and one of my players --Simon wanted to play a dwarf monk. At first I balked a little bit until I saw where he was going. He had Martin Klebba's character from Pirates of the Caribbean in mind when he was rolling his character. Really, how could I say to him that a dwarf monk does not fit the genre? Simon's character --in a word-- rocked.
That was when I realized that the term 'monk' is just a name for a generic character concept. Call him what you will; a fistfighter, a pugilist, a prize-fighter. I am not suggesting that one should compare apples to oranges, but as long as a player can find an analog to class abilities for whatever theme they desire, the character concept can fit any genre.
Imagine a Shoanti tribesman, who lives in solitude within a cave in a mountain. He sits up here, beyond the mere barbarism of his brethren, where his long dead mentor has told him to 'be as the bear'. This Shoanti embodies a different savagery; the age old tradition of the bear-warriors. His quarterstaff is a totem pole, his dagger is the claw of a dire bear. His shuriken are merely flint shards. Scorpion Style is called Bear's Grip in the Shoanti tongue. Whenever he performs a ki strike, he unleashes the bear spirit deep within him as a bestial roar. These Shoanti Bear-Warriors call the Empty Body ability 'Walks-with-Ghosts'.
To me, that is a monk by any other name.
A "monk" does not have to be "eastern", "Western" or anything else, it just is a monk.
Your monk can be from any culture, he is basically a wise fighter who has a better connection between mind, body, and soul than the average fighter. Rename the weapons whatever you want, name means nothing. Rename the abilities, as long as it works the same, it doesn't matter.
You can kick, punch, knee, elbow headbutt, its all fair game for unarmed strikes. Make up your own name for your "martial arts", it can be anything from boxing to kung fu.
A monk encounters a hostile goblin, the monk enters a martial arts stance. it doesnt matter if he has both fist informant of him like in boxing, or doing some crane one legged thing, either way the goblin is thinking "what the hell is this guy doing?"
Flavor does not have to compete with RAW. Those two are mutually exclusive as long as you choose not to be trapped by a stereotype.
BTW...looove dwarven monks, especially drunken dwarven monks, the kind that headbutt people.
Druids-Ancient Celtic pre christian order: European
Bards- Class based off both the Bards of the Celts, Skalds of the Norse, and Jogulars of Medieval France--Also European.
Large Dominant empire that is a center of civilization who survives in a reduced form as a sceaming remnant. Sounds like Rome, whose rise and fall underlies modern European History.
Dwarves and Elves: Norse Myth w/ some Celtic/sidhe flavoring for the elves, even the original inspiration for the url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trow_%28folklore%29]Drow[/url].
Paladin: Class based originally on the Knights of Europe. It has evolved from that but basically the arch typical "palidin" are the Crusaders and Medieval legends like Sir Galahad.
Vampires in game: Based off Eastern European legend as interpreted through an Irishman.I could go on, and on, and on. But I make my point. The Base setting and many of the creatures pulled on first be they Dragons or Goblins or or whatever, most of them are European. I stand by my 80%.
The fact that you didn't even know that Druids were based off European history and myths, even the shapechanging in game (Song of Tuan, Ireland).
Now let's turn it around. Name 10 things that you think of as non European inspired that are not obviously inspired by something else, like the Monk, Genies etc. I bet I can show the European 'inspiration' for about 80% of them. It doesn't mean they haven't evolved. However, they're still there.
All the Best,
Kerney
Then again, if you're drawing on Celtic lore and Norse lore and Greek/Roman lore and Christian lore, you're already in such a ridiculous and asynchronous mishmash that a Monk ain't about to stick out in the least. "European" is far from a unified theme. The Tain and the Iliad and Paradise Lost and whichever version of the Arthurian legends you prefer have about as much to do with each other as they have with the Mahabharata.
*now imagining dwarven monk in full plate headbutting with a steel helm*
"Deep in the Iron Skin mountains lie the Mines of the Iron Skin brothers, whose skill in brewing the blackest of stouts is only matched by their skills plugalistic arts. This secular dwarven fraternity attributes their uncanny acrobatics to a preponderance of jumping-jacks, steak and egg breakfasts, and handlebar mustaches, although their toughened skin is thought to be from the rock salts they use on their aforementioned steaks. While the brothers engage in practice of unorthodox acts of strength and conditioning, they view their bodies as temples, and remind everyone that their copious body hair, there is a sight to behold, the perfect fighting machinery, lubricated with porter and tougher than earth itself."
Monk fills Asian Wuxia tropes but that is all it fills. Yes, I could be an enlightened Pugulist but why can't I be a backroom brawler who isn't enlightened about anything except for the quality of the beer?
The 3.x and Pathfinder Core monk is a very narrow class, based mainly on a specific style of martial arts (karate/kobu-jutsu). However, it only takes a bit of effort to reflavor the class (Stunning Fist becomes "Haymaker/Low-Blow," take Catch Off-Guard and Improved Grapple, etc.). The biggest "problem" is with the "monk weapons" (which, unfortunately, was not addressed in the APG, apart from the Monk of the Empty Hand and the Zen Archer); however, some GMs will allow the player to swap out one or more "normal" monk weapons for a different one (or have created several different schools/styles with associated weapons).
The Advanced Player's Guide actually has a variant for the "backroom brawler" you mention above:
Most monks lead lives of moderation and quiet contemplation. But the drunken master finds perfection through excess. Powered by strong wine, he uses his intoxication to reach a state where his ki is more potent, if somewhat fleeting.
Or, if monk still doesn't fit, there are variant barbarians (Brutal Pugilist, Drunken Brawler) that may suit the particular concept better.
(Mordor is in the east... get it? *crickets chirp* Nothing? Huh.)
+1
time-travelling aliens from the future
We don't get those in Pathfinder anyway. Stupid closed content...
(Mordor is in the east... get it? *crickets chirp* Nothing? Huh.)+1
Woohoo, someone liked my joke at least, hehe. :-D
*now imagining dwarven monk in full plate headbutting with a steel helm*
I had a 3.5 dwarven warblade, who was asked to surrender and go with a group of bounty hunters to the local authorities, claiming I was wanted for murder. The party rogue had put up fake wanted posters of me all over town. SO standing in the street, being asked to surrender for something I didn't do, i had no choice but to do the proper dwarven thing.......I head butted the bastard, well i tried to, think I rolled a 1, and the ensuing battle ended with me being the center of a fireball, the GM saying you take 36 damage, and my reply "i'm dead" as in -26hp dead.
I will pay seth back someday......
As for clerics... there's pretty much absolutely nothing. The closest thing to DnD wizards and clerics can be found, in fact, in far east, where their sages and mystics of myth did indeed possess a spread of supernatural abilities we would find familiar.
Read moar saint stories. Woo, flying nuns! I think one saint even had laser vision. And of course, there are always miraculous healing powers of every flavor going back as far as Christ.
Jesus was a cleric.
A poorly optimized one at that. Too much healing.
:P
He multiclassed monk for the saves.Jesus was a cleric.A poorly optimized one at that. Too much healing.
:P
*golf clap*
*golf clap*He multiclassed monk for the saves.Jesus was a cleric.A poorly optimized one at that. Too much healing.
:P
+(insert very large number here)
rflol
Good grief. The amount of white guilt, self-loathing and Asian nerdrage is off the charts in this topic.
I believe Kerney nailed it best. Fighter? Can be a zulu, a huscarl, a samurai. Barbarian? Take your pick between a number of tribal warriors. Rogue? Adapts itself out-of-the-box to any culture. Wizard? Ditto. Sorcerer? The same. Paladin? Holy warriors aren't bound to any particular culture. Druid? Neither are nature-loving shapeshifters. Cleric? A servant of the gods is a no-brainer. Bard? The power of song is universal, and its manifestations diverse enough to fit anywhere. Ranger? The lone wanderer, the woodsman, the hunter, all of which are to be found in any setting imaginable.
We're left with the monk. What could he possibly be other than your run-of-the-mill wuxia screaming leaper? A pankration fighter? A savate practicioner? A wrestler? Afraid not, as the ki pool, on nomenclature alone, is pretty much exclusive. You could give it another name, but the implication of the power itself places it outside of most hand-to-hand combatant archetypes, as does High Jump (as wuxia as it gets), Purity, Wholeness of and Diamond, Timeless and Empty Body (most martial arts are about crafting the body into a weapon, only the Asian variants come with such transcendental undertones), abundant step (a mythical Ninja overlap, if you ask me). Quivering Palm screams Dim Mak and the like, but Eastern Martial arts don't hold the exclusive to death blows, so this one gets a pass.
In fact, forget the specifics above. Look at how monks are illustrated in pretty much every setting. Do you ever see an oiled-up wrestler? A knight-in-training being run through hand-to-hand combat? A steppe grappler? No. It's pretty much always some distincly Eastern type with a Fu Manchu moustache, a hobgoblin with pseudo-Buddhist clothes, an elf that wouldn't look out of place alongside the cast of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, or something along those lines. The people who brought the monk back and redefined it subconsciously know that he's an outsider among the core classes, which reflects itself in the weapons he's proficient with, the way he's designed and portrayed, and how there must always be a twist of some sort in order to incorporate a monk in non-oriental adventures.
Face it: if a class can't be used out-of-the-box in a specific setting without being houseruled, rationalized or what have you, its design and conception are fundamentally flawed for non-specific core rules, which brings us to the almost run-over topic: Do monks fit the genre? What is genre, you might ask? Whatever you as the DM comes up with to fit your campaign. However, no matter how creative or learned you are, no matter how many twists you give it, your campaign will be based upon something you know, and the beauty of ten of the core classes is that they fit in anywhere, anyhow, no matter if you mix a bit of Celt with a whiff of Polynesian, add a dab of Turkic and a teaspoon of Mayan and put it all in a Scandinavian blender and serve it in a Native American platter. Not true with the monk, as it screams "Asian!" at the top of his lungs, whichever way you put it. And that bothers some DMs and players, which is evidently why the topic was brought up and why so many people are disagreeing. If you want to be all relativistic and egalitarian and that suits you and your campaign, fine. But don't dismiss this outright as Eurocentrism, Westernism or whatever -ism you come up with. That's all kinds of logical fallacy, and has no place in what is actually a pretty pertinent debate.
P.S. As a perfectly subjective aside, I'd be willing to bet that the Asian nerdrage I referred to above is the main reason the monk was brought back, what with the fascination that a vast portion of the gaming community seems to have for all things eastern-flavored.
People keep saying the druid is a western class. It's not.
The druid is an eastern nature mystic, more associated with the Taoism then any actual Celtic belief. Celtic druids were intensely urban; this nonsense about repelling civilization because it's encroaching on the forest is about as anti-druidic as it gets.
He just has a western name.
Excuse me?
I'm mostly Welsh, and either The Celts didn't have as many cities and almost no castles or their enemies had bulldozers. What they built were standing stones and funeral barrows. Their priests were very nature oriented and they protected their secrets by hiding them in riddles. Druidic is the Anglo Saxon misunderstanding of druids.Their legendary human sacrifices were when they claimed they could predict the future by disemboweling a leader. If they were a very bad leader, sure the prediction was positive. Druids are based on European legends that were written by very suspect winners.
People keep saying the druid is a western class. It's not.
The druid is an eastern nature mystic, more associated with the Taoism then any actual Celtic belief. Celtic druids were intensely urban; this nonsense about repelling civilization because it's encroaching on the forest is about as anti-druidic as it gets.
He just has a western name.
Excuse me?
I'm mostly Welsh, and either The Celts didn't have as many cities and almost no castles or their enemies had bulldozers. What they built were standing stones and funeral barrows. Their priests were very nature oriented and they protected their secrets by hiding them in riddles. Druidic is the Anglo Saxon misunderstanding of druids.
Their legendary human sacrifices were when they claimed they could predict the future by disemboweling a leader. If they were a very bad leader, sure the prediction was positive. Druids are based on European legends that were written by very suspect winners.
Not to mention that Holly and Mistletoe is listed as common spell foci for druids. Guess where that comes from? I can tell you it's not Asia. The sickle is specifically listed among the weapons a Druid is proficient with. Guess what the Celtic druids harvested with said sickles.
Edit: The Druid class was inspired by the Druids of the Celtic tradition. That's not to say you can't have differently flavored Druids, but to say that the Druid class cannot be a "Western class" is just plain wrong.
Not to mention that Holly and Mistletoe is listed as common spell foci for druids. Guess where that comes from? I can tell you it's not Asia.
There are species of holly native to Asia. European druids grew holly and mistletoe in sacred greenhouses within their major urban centers. Also, one of those two sentences isn't true for at least two reasons.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Not to mention that Holly and Mistletoe is listed as common spell foci for druids. Guess where that comes from? I can tell you it's not Asia.There are species of holly native to Asia. European druids grew holly and mistletoe in sacred greenhouses within their major urban centers. Also, one of those two sentences isn't true for at least two reasons.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Mark,
The tradition of holly and mistletoe is deeply rooted (pun!) in Celtic Druidism. Celtic Druids used sickles to harvest them. Druids are explicitly proficient with sickles.
The Druid class was inspired by Celtic Druids, without a shadow of a doubt. Are they exactly similar to everything Celtic Druids did? No. That's because it's fantasy. Do they need to be? No.
It's ok, man, it really is. Life will not cease.
The Druid class was inspired by Celtic Druids, without a shadow of a doubt.
It's not like Gygax specifically stated that to be the case... Oh, wait, yes he did, in the 1e Player's Handbook. And I assume he would be in a position to know where the inspiration for his own class came from. I'm having a hard time thinking of stronger support for your statement than that!
But like the monk not being based on real Buddhist monks, but on 1970s movie versions, the druid was based not on real Celtic druids, but on myths, legends, and tales about them. And that's the point: it's a fantasy game, not a historical game.