I've decided to try my hand at organizing this effort from the thread Here
OK let's get some location ideas down so we can drive this project
James said the following locations are off limits, due to possible potential plans:
We have a LOT of possible locations for mega-dungeons in Golarion. Those that pop into my head immediately:
Any of the siege castles around Absalom (one of which is a version of El Raja Key, from Robert Kuntz!)
In Varisia: Viperwall, Kaer-Maga, Castle Korvosa, and my own personal favorite: Hollow Mountain.
On Mediogalti Island: The Crimson Citadel
We need names so far we have:
Tabsagal in Ninshabur, an ancient nation which existed on the continent of Casmaron during the Age of Anguish.
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh -> Osirion. Subsumed/buried remains of the city of Uman-Sekh
Flume Warrens of Sekamina
The Crystal Womb in Orv.
El-Fatar in Katapesh
What else?
|
What else?Flume Warrens of Sekamina
The Crystal Womb in Orv.
El-Fatar in Katapesh
I only mentioned the Flume Warrens and the Crystal Womb as being locations in the Darklands roughly corresponding to Kaer Maga above.
I wouldn't suggest locating a megadungeon *in* the Darklands, although it could certainly connect to Nar-Voth on the lower levels.
El-Fatar has much to recommend it as a megadungeon location, particularly one with an Egyptian/Osirioni flavor or theme.
I was grabbing the locales mentioned in the previous thread.
I wouldn't want to start the mega-dungeon in the darklands either, but have them attach to it at different points deeper down.
Some more ideas (Big Thanks to PathfinderWiki)
Deep Tolguth – Land of the Mammoth Kings –“Valley time forgot”
Droskar’s Crag – Andoran - Dormant volcano
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy - Scattered throughout the Icerime Peaks are entrances to mountain dungeons from the time of the ancient empire of Iobaria; some dungeons are dated even older and are haunted by ghosts and spirits of long-perished soldiers and miners who once occupied the lands
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin - an ancient, monumentally large pillar of black rock which rises from a cliff on the southern tip of the mountains that mark the Hold of Belkzen's western border. The main feature of this enormous rock is the huge pair of fifty-foot-high doors that bar entrance to whatever lies within.
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin - Rumour has it that their lair is in fact just the entrance to a vast city carved within the mountain itself. However, due to the dragons' dislike of nosy adventurers, no one has yet been able to verify these rumours
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin - a vast stone temple complex suspended over a mile-deep chasm by immense chains running between three high mountain peaks.
Thank you Cpt_kirstov!
I've not read all of the modules yet. I was just scrolling the wiki for pre-named areas.
I suggest that whatever we pick not necessarily have an overriding central theme, because then we can include levels with a variety of themes rather than being limited by the central one.
Meh, I'm not sure I like you're approach, though I certainly wish you well.
|
|
Meh, I'm not sure I like you're approach, though I certainly wish you well.
What Approach? Currently its just building blocks that can be made use of.
Is what you are considering is using an Adventure path layout on line where you create a thread which is designated a room entry. Where you click a link to take you to another thread that some way advances the story and the dungeon exploration. And you would have alternate pathways...
Ive already started laying down building blocks for a community build megadungeon although I put it as accesible by dimension door from anywhere in the world...
This is going to be a Golarion specific mega-dungeon. You're idea follows more along my idea for the random dungeon generator. Which is awesome, and I'll be following you closely.
Once we decide on a few location ideas I'm going to e-mail James (per his request in the previous thread) to see if Paizo had any impending plans for the locations and if not then the community gets to help build a Mega-Dungeon for that location in Golarion.
Location list so far:
Canon Locations
Deep Tolguth – Land of the Mammoth Kings - Has a very big Journey to the Center of the Earth/Land of the Lost vibe.
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy - Scattered throughout the Icerime Peaks are entrances to mountain dungeons from the time of the ancient empire of Iobaria; some dungeons are dated even older and are haunted by ghosts and spirits of long-perished soldiers and miners who once occupied the lands.
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin - an ancient, monumentally large pillar of black rock which rises from a cliff on the southern tip of the mountains that mark the Hold of Belkzen's western border. The main feature of this enormous rock is the huge pair of fifty-foot-high doors that bar entrance to whatever lies within.
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin - Rumour has it that their lair is in fact just the entrance to a vast city carved within the mountain itself. However, due to the dragons' dislike of nosy adventurers, no one has yet been able to verify these rumours.
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin - a vast stone temple complex suspended over a mile-deep chasm by immense chains running between three high mountain peaks.
El-Fatar - Katapesh - A town built upon ruins with treasure hunters already delving into the upper levels, what could be lower though...
Tabsagal - Ninshabur - an ancient nation which existed on the continent of Casmaron during the Age of Anguish. Not much is know about this location
Non-Canon Locations
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion - Subsumed/buried remains of the city of Uman-Sekh
|
|
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin - a vast stone temple complex suspended over a mile-deep chasm by immense chains running between three high mountain peaks.This seems rather precarious; I can see it now...
PC: 'Rusting Grasp'
<CLANG!>
PC: 'How many xp do I get?'
How many fiendish rust monsters can you summon with summon monster IX? :-)
LOL nice Snorter.
So any areas you'd like to expand into?
Non-Canon Locations
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion - Subsumed/buried remains of the city of Uman-Sekh
Psst, that one is canon. ;)
When I said it was one I came up with, I meant as in it was from the Osirion book that I cowrote with Jason Nelson, versus the earlier ones I mentioned that I didn't work on their respective sources. Sorry to confuse.
All of the ones I mentioned in that other thread were canon. :)
Well color me red.
Sorry Todd!
Location list so far:
Canon Locations
Deep Tolguth – Land of the Mammoth Kings - Has a very big Journey to the Center of the Earth/Land of the Lost vibe.
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy - Scattered throughout the Icerime Peaks are entrances to mountain dungeons from the time of the ancient empire of Iobaria; some dungeons are dated even older and are haunted by ghosts and spirits of long-perished soldiers and miners who once occupied the lands.
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin - an ancient, monumentally large pillar of black rock which rises from a cliff on the southern tip of the mountains that mark the Hold of Belkzen's western border. The main feature of this enormous rock is the huge pair of fifty-foot-high doors that bar entrance to whatever lies within.
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin - Rumour has it that their lair is in fact just the entrance to a vast city carved within the mountain itself. However, due to the dragons' dislike of nosy adventurers, no one has yet been able to verify these rumours.
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin - a vast stone temple complex suspended over a mile-deep chasm by immense chains running between three high mountain peaks.
El-Fatar - Katapesh - A town built upon ruins with treasure hunters already delving into the upper levels, what could be lower though...
Tabsagal - Ninshabur - an ancient nation which existed on the continent of Casmaron during the Age of Anguish. Not much is know about this location
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion - Subsumed/buried remains of the city of Uman-Sekh
FIXED!!!
What about Kho?
"One of the strangest ruins in a land rife with inscrutable remnants of elder days is the ruined city of Kho. This great sky-citadel was once the capital of the legendary Shory Empire, but it has lain in repose in the upper Kho-Rarne Pass leading from the Mwangi Expanse into western Osirion ever since an unknown disaster laid it low. The arcane mysteries of the Shory have long since passed into legend, but generations of treasure seekers have sought this famous ruin, hoping to tap into the lacework of magical energies that still envelop it or simply to poach the relics of a lost age."
There's lots of small villages nearby and its in a remote area.
Entrances to the megadungeon could be via the Cistern Major (the arcane aquifer at the city’s heart), under the Domes of the Polymatum (immense domes encompassing living quarters, research and teaching space, and common areas of the former city), or even hidden within the Fields of Glass (fallen towers and former skyscrapers?), and even via the Pit of Endless Night (perfectly smooth corkscrew shaft leading into the uttermost bowels of the world.)
Sounds like a great surface area for a megadungeon to me.
El-Fatar seems to jump out at me the most.
Numeria: Silver Mount in/near Starfall
Belkzen: The Cenotaph - doubly nominated, due to it's ties to the Whispering Tyrant.
The Sodden Lands: Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon
Geb: the Mortuarium in Yled (heck, ALL of Yled)
I like the sound of Icerime Peaks or El-Fatar
What about Xin-Shalast?
The whole city is supposed to be one huge mega-dungeon extending deep below the surface.
Developing this further would help out those groups that want to more fully explore the city during Rise of the Runelords.
Or it could be set after the events of the AP and the players are intrepid treasure hunters drawn to the promise of treasure from the newly rediscovered city of wealth.
I imagine a sort of frontier, gold-rush style settlement would develop on top to take advantage of all the looters and their need for supplies. Ancient cults would be arriving to find lost secrets. Wizard guilds would arrive for research. All these groups would be vying for wealth and control of the city.
|
|
Ive already started laying down building blocks for a community build megadungeon although I put it as accesible by dimension door from anywhere in the world...
This is going to be a Golarion specific mega-dungeon. You're idea follows more along my idea for the random dungeon generator. Which is awesome, and I'll be following you closely.
Once we decide on a few location ideas I'm going to e-mail James (per his request in the previous thread) to see if Paizo had any impending plans for the locations and if not then the community gets to help build a Mega-Dungeon for that location in Golarion.
The Idea is that it would be a Golarion Specific megadungeon. It would simply be acessible from anywhere in Golarion using a Dimension door (or rather stuffing up the use of a dimension door and winding up there).
Some place like starfall would give off wierd energy that makes it more likely for a Dimension Door to fail and dump the traveller into our Megadungeon.
How about a more supernatural Megadungeon - an Underworld made up of components not completely "shifted" out of existence from lost Azlant as their doom was approaching? This could be (magically) accessible from almost anywhere, like Absalom, and need never follow the laws of nature with regards to silly ecologies, etc.
Ive already started laying down building blocks for a community build megadungeon although I put it as accesible by dimension door from anywhere in the world...
This is going to be a Golarion specific mega-dungeon. You're idea follows more along my idea for the random dungeon generator. Which is awesome, and I'll be following you closely.
Once we decide on a few location ideas I'm going to e-mail James (per his request in the previous thread) to see if Paizo had any impending plans for the locations and if not then the community gets to help build a Mega-Dungeon for that location in Golarion.
The Idea is that it would be a Golarion Specific megadungeon. It would simply be acessible from anywhere in Golarion using a Dimension door (or rather stuffing up the use of a dimension door and winding up there).
Some place like starfall would give off wierd energy that makes it more likely for a Dimension Door to fail and dump the traveller into our Megadungeon.
One of the disadvantages to requiring the use of dimension door to enter the dungeon, is that that would limit access to the dungeon to only those that can cast dimension door, precluding low level characters. A megadungeon should have challenges for a wide range of levels, from 1st on up.
The more I think about it, the more I think that deciding on the location first isn't the best idea. I suggest that we should start work on the dungeon and then decide the location. At least we should have some idea on what we want to do and then figure out what location would fit that best.
I personally think that the dungeon should be, while not "generic" perhaps not having a strong overall theme, so we can present specific levels with a variety of themes. We should definitely have at least twelve levels (downwards, so not including sublevels), with lower levels being more difficult of course.
I'm thinking the first level should be somewhat inspired by the Caves of Chaos from the module Keep on the Borderlands, with a bunch of different humanoid lairs spread through the level. These lairs should each have they're own personalities, and should have certain relationships between each other (ally, enemy, indifferent, etc.). Of course the unique characteristics of Pathfinder's versions should be displayed, i.e. crazy goblins, hillbilly ogres, ect. An important consideration is that there should be some room between the territories of the various groups, since opposing tribes wouldn't be all together like sardines in a can. This "no-mans land" wouldn't be completely bereft of monsters, there'd be lairs of vermin and other "neutral" monsters here and there.
I think the location helps produce the dungeon, at least the first few levels.
But that first level idea can work with any location. Also if the location is away from society (i.e. Icerime) then a zone of that will be a good or neutral race so the PCs can have a fall back "safe house". This also allows for quest leads.
Now I think each "Zone" of the dungeon should be thematic, especially the first few levels to the location that the dungeon starts in. Then as you delve deeper (crack upon sealed doors, find a crack in the wall after an earthquake, etc) the feel can change.
If you have each level be a different theme, with little to no conncetion, then you run into a 7 layer salad. Granted it looks fantastic with the layers, but you can't eat it a layer at a time.
Location Update
Deep Tolguth – Land of the Mammoth Kings - Has a very big Journey to the Center of the Earth/Land of the Lost vibe.
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy - Scattered throughout the Icerime Peaks are entrances to mountain dungeons from the time of the ancient empire of Iobaria; some dungeons are dated even older and are haunted by ghosts and spirits of long-perished soldiers and miners who once occupied the lands.
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin - an ancient, monumentally large pillar of black rock which rises from a cliff on the southern tip of the mountains that mark the Hold of Belkzen's western border. The main feature of this enormous rock is the huge pair of fifty-foot-high doors that bar entrance to whatever lies within.
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin - Rumour has it that their lair is in fact just the entrance to a vast city carved within the mountain itself. However, due to the dragons' dislike of nosy adventurers, no one has yet been able to verify these rumours.
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin - a vast stone temple complex suspended over a mile-deep chasm by immense chains running between three high mountain peaks.
El-Fatar - Katapesh - A town built upon ruins with treasure hunters already delving into the upper levels, what could be lower though...
Tabsagal - Ninshabur - an ancient nation which existed on the continent of Casmaron during the Age of Anguish. Not much is know about this location
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion - Subsumed/buried remains of the city of Uman-Sekh
Kho – Mwangi Expanse – Crashed sky citadel from a time long ago.
Numeria: Silver Mount in/near Starfall – A crashed metal mountain of unknown origin, leaks a strange addictive fluid.
The Sodden Lands: Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon – Cities lost to the flooding of the region.
Not using the Mortuarium, because it isn’t really a dungeon that a group could grow in. It’s a college for teaching the necromantic arts. Any incursion into said place would turn an entire country against the PCs.
|
|
The more I think about it, the more I think that deciding on the location first isn't the best idea. I suggest that we should start work on the dungeon and then decide the location. At least we should have some idea on what we want to do and then figure out what location would fit that best.
I personally think that the dungeon should be, while not "generic" perhaps not having a strong overall theme, so we can present specific levels with a variety of themes. We should definitely have at least twelve levels (downwards, so not including sublevels), with lower levels being more difficult of course.
I'm thinking the first level should be somewhat inspired by the Caves of Chaos from the module Keep on the Borderlands, with a bunch of different humanoid lairs spread through the level. These lairs should each have they're own personalities, and should have certain relationships between each other (ally, enemy, indifferent, etc.). Of course the unique characteristics of Pathfinder's versions should be displayed, i.e. crazy goblins, hillbilly ogres, ect. An important consideration is that there should be some room between the territories of the various groups, since opposing tribes wouldn't be all together like sardines in a can. This "no-mans land" wouldn't be completely bereft of monsters, there'd be lairs of vermin and other "neutral" monsters here and there.
Dungeon Level = Encounter Level
The idea of Dungeon Level = Encounter Level is a flawed one. The big monsters need to be able to exit and if the only way in is through the weaker level dungeons then it might just as well decide to settle on the top floor and feed on the weak creatures it has trapped below like an ant eater working a termite mound.The Feeding Pit: An Exit from the Bottom
So what you need is a way for the monsters to exit when they want. This is going to be like a huge pit. Every lairing monster might exit in that pit and fly off- however because the bigest monster is hungry it will nest on the edge of the pit and feed - even the Pit will be a centre for use by the biggest critter. The smallest - having some survival instinct will want to exit elsewhere.
Smaller orbits at the fringes of the bigger
Big critters have big reach and they will attack anything in their nest...So smaller weaker critters will live at the fringe of that reach. Even smaller creatures will live at the fringe of the reach of the small. So you design a megadungeon for this by dropping beads of various size into the same area and see what fits at the edges of the larger beads.
Everyone has their own ant nest
More realistic to disperse your population. The Ruin of Bob's Temple leads down into the Undead controlled labyrinths in this part of the Megadungeon. These crypts seem an almost vertical shaft of coffins all the way down to the deepest crypts. instead of one staircase leading down to the next level - there will be one tunnel linking horizontally into the Caves of the Gelatinous Spawn a few miles away from the Temple and its crypt. This is how Caves of Chaos worked.
Dungeon Level = Encounter Level
The idea of Dungeon Level = Encounter Level is a flawed one. The big monsters need to be able to exit and if the only way in is through the weaker level dungeons then it might just as well decide to settle on the top floor and feed on the weak creatures it has trapped below like an ant eater working a termite mound.
Who says the only way in is through level 1?
Dungeonaday.com has some great examples of how you find secret entrances as you go down. Not every level needs a way out, but every few levels do. So when you find the underground stream on say, level 5, it leads up to a river a few miles away. Then an experience party has a short cut deeper into the dungeon.
Nobody expects there to be only one entrance, but the main entrance should be relatively easy for a starting party. There's no reason to go deep in the megadungeon if the biggest threat is sitting at the top!
|
|
Dungeon Level = Encounter Level
The idea of Dungeon Level = Encounter Level is a flawed one. The big monsters need to be able to exit and if the only way in is through the weaker level dungeons then it might just as well decide to settle on the top floor and feed on the weak creatures it has trapped below like an ant eater working a termite mound.Who says the only way in is through level 1?
Dungeonaday.com has some great examples of how you find secret entrances as you go down. Not every level needs a way out, but every few levels do. So when you find the underground stream on say, level 5, it leads up to a river a few miles away. Then an experience party has a short cut deeper into the dungeon.
Nobody expects there to be only one entrance, but the main entrance should be relatively easy for a starting party. There's no reason to go deep in the megadungeon if the biggest threat is sitting at the top!
The Main Entrance is a Common Entrance
If there is a common path by which everyone has access to and from the dungeon where they lair - it will be the Main Entrance. From Bob the Butcher and his band of thugs to The Dralush Spawning looking for corpses to infest with eggs.Even the Cave men will drive out the Cave bears for control over the cave.
The Main Entrance is a Common Entrance
If there is a common path by which everyone has access to and from the dungeon where they lair - it will be the Main Entrance. From Bob the Butcher and his band of thugs to The Dralush Spawning looking for corpses to infest with eggs.
That is an assumption you are making. That may work for smaller dungeons, but it just makes no sense for a megadungeon. To me, the main entrance is the one common people, ie, the nearby townsfolk, are aware of.
This is one of the reasons I think a megadungeon shouldn't be built as simply generic. Why it was built? Who is using it now? Which inhabitants actually come to the surface routinely? If the mega dungeon has been sealed for a very long time, and has constructs, undead, and oozes as the primary inhabitants, the main entrance may not have been used for a 1,000 years.
|
|
The Main Entrance is a Common Entrance
If there is a common path by which everyone has access to and from the dungeon where they lair - it will be the Main Entrance. From Bob the Butcher and his band of thugs to The Dralush Spawning looking for corpses to infest with eggs.That is an assumption you are making. That may work for smaller dungeons, but it just makes no sense for a megadungeon. To me, the main entrance is the one common people, ie, the nearby townsfolk, are aware of.
This is one of the reasons I think a megadungeon shouldn't be built as simply generic. Why it was built? Who is using it now? Which inhabitants actually come to the surface routinely? If the mega dungeon has been sealed for a very long time, and has constructs, undead, and oozes as the primary inhabitants, the main entrance may not have been used for a 1,000 years.
Indeed what I am talking about is one that is actively interacting with the world around it. If you are looking for something a little more 'sleep mode' then that is just as interesting (and Viable).
The Twilight Gate: A Door Sealed long ago
There can just as well be some ancient gate overlooking the Mountain Village of Budgiesmuggler that opens once every milennia from sunset to sunrise the next day. An Adventure Path with a timeframe means every second must be counted by the DM during the Adventure. That nigh immortal Lich (or other) within will likely be aware of any timing sequence for the outer Doors if it has been measuring the time between when they open.
They will be ready to make use of the Doors. The more powerful hordes may be positioned very close to the outer Gates so the Undead Hordes can escape during their window of opportunity. If the foe is trapped within - he/she may need to wait in hope that the PCs can delve sufficiently deep to make the release.
Known Entry points will have a powerful Foe nearby making use of it or guarding it.
Alternatives to the Front Door
This will have low priority guards - the Occupants of the Megadungeon may even be unaware of it's existance.
1. The First Emperor's Burrial Chamber
It is rumored the First Emperor's Burial Chamber is somewhere on the Mountain. While this may be no more than a simple isolated set of chambers with no connection to the Megadungeon - it may also be a serect way in - that plaster artwork at the back of the treasure vault looks thin and crumbly.
2. The Sinkhole
Recently opened due to geological changes - the sink hole has been discovered by a few small critters and they are making use of it to access the surrounding countryside. The Sinkhole leads into caves and caverns recently opened and infested with low power critters seeking refuge from more dangerous foes.
|
Some place like starfall would give off wierd energy that makes it more likely for a Dimension Door to fail and dump the traveller into our Megadungeon.
I like any location in Numeria, and a sci-fi/fantasy theme, for this same reason.
As well as the following;- There needs to be a strong theme, to attract attention.
- Golarion has been explicitly set up to allow for pulp science-fantasy, from day one, as opposed to other settings, in which this would be a non-starter.
- Endless dungeon-hacking can become boring (heresy!), but having non-standard influences means the players can never get lazy, and take what they see for granted.
- Technology is a great leveller; it allows for non-caster inhabitants to set specific high-level defences, without having to allow for the multiple other spells a high-level caster must be assumed to possess.
- I'd like this to be something different than the majority of other mega-dungeons out there. Yes, it may have been done in S3, but that was 30 years ago, and it's due for a reimagining.
- The fact that it hearkens back to S3 is a selling point to players of my generation.
- A long succession of 'fantasy' rooms, most of which are only a slight variation on 'The Orc and The Pie', isn't worth the effort.
- Even allowing for themed sub-levels; if this could just as easily be done by splicing together several separate generic fantasy modules/scenarios from Dungeon, why bother?
|
|
How about a more supernatural Megadungeon - an Underworld made up of components not completely "shifted" out of existence from lost Azlant as their doom was approaching? This could be (magically) accessible from almost anywhere, like Absalom, and need never follow the laws of nature with regards to silly ecologies, etc.
Yes; whatever gets picked, it needs to be able to provide a reason (no matter how bizarre) why the inhabitants haven't died of old age, or spilled out into the wider world long before the PCs get there.
Examples:
Cryogenics (artificial or natural (eg buried under the polar ice)
Demiplane where time flows slower
Dimension-hopping location, only touching the campaign world briefly (eg TSR's Dragon Mountain)
Construct caretakers (who only summon 'the masters' when certain criteria occur)
Any others?
|
|
What about creating/inventing a dungeon which isn't anywhere specific but which (as a sort of conduit between the planes) links/touches dozens if not hundreds of other places, similar to the infinite staircase of old 2nd edition AD&D planescape? Having sections of the dungeon resemble/take on aspects of whatever place it happens to be localy 'adjacent' to would allow a range of varying effects/environments and the denizens of locally 'adjacent' areas might spill into those areas to try to control passage from that part of the dungeon in/out of their locality.
A Dungeon that connects seamlessly from its planar site with all the other Golarion located Megadungeons like a nexus?
I'm sure they did that in a very old RPG videogame called Ultima IV...I remember stumbling into a dungeon and exiting at another across the game world.
Well if it has a very strong, overriding theme it's hard to make it a true megadungeon. We need like, at least twelve good-sized levels. If you have a really strong theme overall that limits the variety of individual levels. It just makes it a bland collection of homogeneous encounters and rooms. There might be some kind of theme, but it should have a lot of room for different variations.
I do agree that we need something to distinguish this megadungeon from others. I suggest we emphasis the Golarionness of the dungeon. We should find a place where a bunch of things from across Golarion can coexist (though if something still seems too unlikely we can say "a wizard did it"). Though really there's not like there is an over-abundance of megadungeons that we need to distinguish ourselves from out there. Most of the really famous ones have only had fragments of them published. Others aren't really true mega-dungeons so much as they are just really big dungeons (such as World's Largest's Dungeon). There is a significant difference. Of actual megadungeons there's only a handful that actually qualify.
There's an obvious explanation regarding "why haven't the monsters escaped or died of old age". They do. There's nothing wrong with that. A megadungeon isn't a static place, it changes over time. Some monsters might leave, while others arrive. If monsters die the ones that are left might breed, though in many cases this will not have much of an effect in a campaign as the process is, of course, a bit too slow. But it at least explains why the monsters in the dungeon haven't died out.
I don't really think it's too useful to over analyze this. If we're doing a megadungeon it's going to have levels that are more dangerous below the upper levels, there's going to be a bunch of monsters in it, etc. That's just what a megadungeon is. We don't have to go too far in explaining the whys and hows.
Creative Director
|
First off... I'm stoked that this community project got off the ground! I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with!
Looking at the latest location update, there's a few on the list that we'll actually be doing things with in the future—not necessarily megadungeons, but if you're interested in keeping this project from being obsoleted or "overwritten" by official canon, I would stay away from the following locations:
Kho (This will be featured in the upcoming "Lost Cities of Golarion")
Silver Mount in Numeria (We'll be doing something with this site, I guarantee, at some point in the future)
Deep Tolguth (We MIGHT be doing something here some day... but it's already established that it's not really a "megadungeon" and more of a lost world type setting, so I'm not sure how much sense this one would make as a megadungeon.)
Tabsagal Ninshabur is a location we'll be exploring some day, and there's a LOT of in-house canon about it we haven't yet revealed or talked about. It's a pretty important location, if only due to its proximity to the Pit of Gormuz, and it's quite likely to some day years down the road be more detailed.
That's pretty much it; the rest of the locations should be pretty safe when it comes to us not touching them in the future.
|
|
First off... I'm stoked that this community project got off the ground! I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with!
Looking at the latest location update, there's a few on the list that we'll actually be doing things with in the future—not necessarily megadungeons, but if you're interested in keeping this project from being obsoleted or "overwritten" by official canon, I would stay away from the following locations:
Kho (This will be featured in the upcoming "Lost Cities of Golarion")
Silver Mount in Numeria (We'll be doing something with this site, I guarantee, at some point in the future)
Deep Tolguth (We MIGHT be doing something here some day... but it's already established that it's not really a "megadungeon" and more of a lost world type setting, so I'm not sure how much sense this one would make as a megadungeon.)
Tabsagal Ninshabur is a location we'll be exploring some day, and there's a LOT of in-house canon about it we haven't yet revealed or talked about. It's a pretty important location, if only due to its proximity to the Pit of Gormuz, and it's quite likely to some day years down the road be more detailed.That's pretty much it; the rest of the locations should be pretty safe when it comes to us not touching them in the future.
THanks James...i'm sure that will help a lot in cutting down our options.
|
|
Well if it has a very strong, overriding theme it's hard to make it a true megadungeon. We need like, at least twelve good-sized levels. If you have a really strong theme overall that limits the variety of individual levels. It just makes it a bland collection of homogeneous encounters and rooms. There might be some kind of theme, but it should have a lot of room for different variations.
I do agree that we need something to distinguish this megadungeon from others. I suggest we emphasis the Golarionness of the dungeon. We should find a place where a bunch of things from across Golarion can coexist (though if something still seems too unlikely we can say "a wizard did it"). Though really there's not like there is an over-abundance of megadungeons that we need to distinguish ourselves from out there. Most of the really famous ones have only had fragments of them published. Others aren't really true mega-dungeons so much as they are just really big dungeons (such as World's Largest's Dungeon). There is a significant difference. Of actual megadungeons there's only a handful that actually qualify.
There's an obvious explanation regarding "why haven't the monsters escaped or died of old age". They do. There's nothing wrong with that. A megadungeon isn't a static place, it changes over time. Some monsters might leave, while others arrive. If monsters die the ones that are left might breed, though in many cases this will not have much of an effect in a campaign as the process is, of course, a bit too slow. But it at least explains why the monsters in the dungeon haven't died out.
I don't really think it's too useful to over analyze this. If we're doing a megadungeon it's going to have levels that are more dangerous below the upper levels, there's going to be a bunch of monsters in it, etc. That's just what a megadungeon is. We don't have to go too far in explaining the whys and hows.
I still think Megadungeon based on Dungeon Level equals Encounter Level is a failed and unrealistic premis. Logic is a minimum requirement.
The Oubliette of Madness: An Intermittent Planar dungeon
This is the style I'm working on for one of my Megadungeon Projects. Basically you can walk fifty feet down a corridor and move from level x in the campaign dungeon - through a section of dungeon that exists on a plane and turn left through where your dungeon should be already and be and find yourself on level y of the dungeon without even noticing the transition. In the end it isnt about increasingly powerful foes. Its about a continuous loss of resources until the PCs are forced to fight Kobolds for the only good climbing rope. its about wearing the PCs down until they are weaker.
Ecosystems
If you do want accuracy and consistency with the setting you will probably have to consider something like a food supply. Something must eat the bugs.
I didn't say "Dungeon Level equals Encounter Level", I said the dungeon gets more difficult as you go to lower levels. That is pretty much an essential trope for a megadungeon. You've got to have areas where low level characters can have a reasonable chance of success. So you can't put bulettes and ettins or worse monsters on the first level. Furthermore as characters get more powerful they need more powerful challenges, therefore each level gets progressively harder.
It seems to me there needs to be an "easy" way to go quite deep quite quickly in order to facilitate as many styles of play as possible. Ultimately, some are going to want to be able to delve in with a tenth level party - they need a relatively easy way to 'get to the good stuff' without having to wade through three or four levels of trivial cannon-fodder. I like the idea of having one or more havens (like skullport in Undermountain) which have their own character and their own dangers, but which allow higher level parties a place to rest up/trade/relax without having to walk through miles of corridors they've already seen. Teleport/Gating or somesuch is a possibility, but I think that can easily be contrived - a relatively safe community can provide a break and a chance for some different, more urban style of adventure.
It's personal preference, but just to put it out there - I like other-planar elements to megadungeons, but not as a central theme. Ultimately, plane-hopping to various different, fantastic locales doesnt fit with my idea of a megadungeon which is a more traditional, miles of corridors, rooms and chambers working ever deeper underground, eventually reaching "things we were never meant to know/we will never understand/too horrible to contemplate".
That's why you have multiple entrances. Also not every room, or even most rooms, should have monsters in them, so it should be rather easy to go around the low-level monsters. There are also shortcuts, like shafts that go do multiple levels, lifts, teleporters, etc.
|
|
I didn't say "Dungeon Level equals Encounter Level", I said the dungeon gets more difficult as you go to lower levels. That is pretty much an essential trope for a megadungeon. You've got to have areas where low level characters can have a reasonable chance of success. So you can't put bulettes and ettins or worse monsters on the first level. Furthermore as characters get more powerful they need more powerful challenges, therefore each level gets progressively harder.
How do we get across to the other side?
Sure it can be harder and more dangerous the deeper you go. And you dont necessarily need to equate that with more dangerous monsters. Geologically it will be less explored and maintained. Those who do make it to the Rope Bridge on level 10 would best find something that is a lot more dangerous than a walk through the local park at night.Subsidence
- Subsidence increases to near 100% once your tunnel is wider than the thickness of rock from ceiling to next floor up.
- Disintergrate automatically stresses strata to 100% fail.
If we take twelve levels and apply the rules of subsidence to them where they overlap each other - then we can probably draw in a sink hole or several that go down to various levels of the Dungeon. That might give a reason for living monsters from the surface that far down without too much of an ecosystem.
Most of the really famous ones have only had fragments of them published. Others aren't really true mega-dungeons so much as they are just really big dungeons (such as World's Largest's Dungeon). There is a significant difference. Of actual megadungeons there's only a handful that actually qualify.
What is your definition of a mega-dungeon? I had been thinking that mega-dungeon was just a massive dungeon.
Ok I think we've given enough time for ideas to get collected. Let’s get this location rolling so we can start getting into the meat of this dungeon.
We have 7 strong areas to choose from, thanks to James coming in and giving some slight look at plans ahead.
Here are the contenders:
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin
El-Fatar - Katapesh
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion
Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon - The Sodden Lands
Pick your two favorite ideas and post them to the thread. Each vote gets a point, and the top two will be discussed in length to help us figure out the whys and whats.
Voting will extend through this week to Friday, 8 PM EST to allow plenty of time for people to choose.
|
|
Ok I think we've given enough time for ideas to get collected. Let’s get this location rolling so we can start getting into the meat of this dungeon.
We have 7 strong areas to choose from, thanks to James coming in and giving some slight look at plans ahead.
Here are the contenders:
Icerime Peaks – Brevoy
Cenotaph – Hold of Belkzin
Raschka-Tor – Hold of Belkzin
Sech Nevali – Hold of Belzkin
El-Fatar - Katapesh
The Labyrinth of Shiman-Sekh - Osirion
Lost cities of Hyrantam, Kokutang and Oagon - The Sodden LandsPick your two favorite ideas and post them to the thread. Each vote gets a point, and the top two will be discussed in length to help us figure out the whys and whats.
Voting will extend through this week to Friday, 8 PM EST to allow plenty of time for people to choose.
I'd like to throw in a Special...
The Cleaves - One way in and No way out
I still believe that a Mega-dungeon that can be accessed from anywhere in the world by accident is precisely what we are looking for in terms of a Mega-dungeon. That way the PCs will be robbed of what they have soon after they are trapped. Their goods are being sold off in the Market of our 'Safe zone settlement' and they must adventure to recover what they need to survive.
If our Dungeon has a Safe Zone - the Markets (Maybe we should call it Pippa's Slave Markets - for those in the know) are not necessarily it. While it might be a centre where they can retreat from the dangers of the rest of the Mega-dungeon - they have to pay to get in. Resources are scarce. The population is so diverse - there are dimension door travellers from lands no one has heard of.
Votes:
1. The Cleaves
2. Icerime Peaks